Jump to content
houstontexasjack

212 Milam (the old Chase Motor Bank)

Recommended Posts

The property at 212 Milam St., presently occupied by the more-or-less abandoned Chase Motor Bank across the street to the north from Market Square Tower, has recently been listed for sale:

 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/212-Milam-St-Houston-TX/15558588/

 

Here's hoping for some nice redevelopment to extend the skyline further north.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was for sale back in 2014 or 2015 but must have been pulled off the market during the downturn. Guess this signals they feel favorable market conditions are back.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't a significant chunk of that block held up by piers in the river [bayou] bank as part of the bridges over the bayou? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Offers due May 7th. I didn't realize prime land sales often had limited exposure like this, like a residential house. This lot floods and I hope does not become a garage.

 

Edited by H-Town Man
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

This is the bank that was featured in the 1984 movie "Paris, Texas".
edit: Here's a scene showing the bank (and glimpses of downtown's 1983 skyline and randomly cut together freeway sequences).

 

 

That's a hell of a time capsule. The "Get Mobyvated" 97 Rock billboard caught my eye. 

 

Getting on 59 Northbound coming out of the bank was a neat trick, but nothing compared to teleporting backwards by a couple of miles a minute or so later. 

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny thing is, the Katy was both the first and last freeway they were on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found it really easy to miss the director's intentions because I was so busy identifying things. I would think, "Oh, that's the southwest freeway before 288 splits off," instead of "Oh, this overwhelming freeway with all these lanes is meant to evoke the overwhelming feelings of the situation." Or not noticing that the name "Paris, Texas," was meant to suggest the contrast between an ideal (Paris = happy family life) with a grim reality (Texas = emotional desolation). My interpretations, anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, mollusk said:

Funny thing is, the Katy was both the first and last freeway they were on.

I had a cab driver who was supposed to take a friend and me from east Midtown to a bar on West Dallas. Somehow, we ended up in an industrial area east of the 610 Loop. 
The driver must have used this movie instead of Garmin to inform his choices.

4 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

I found it really easy to miss the director's intentions because I was so busy identifying things. I would think, "Oh, that's the southwest freeway before 288 splits off," instead of "Oh, this overwhelming freeway with all these lanes is meant to evoke the overwhelming feelings of the situation." Or not noticing that the name "Paris, Texas," was meant to suggest the contrast between an ideal (Paris = happy family life) with a grim reality (Texas = emotional desolation). My interpretations, anyway.

Same thing happens to me. For example, City Hall has stood in for Hermann Hospital and for a courthouse in other movies, and it always throws me for a loop. 
Your interpretations are in line with the filmmakers' intentions. It's the sort of movie (excuse me, film) that they go crazy over at Cannes - and they did:
"At Cannes, the film won three prizes: the Palme d'Or, the FIPRESCI Prize, and the Prize of the Ecumenical Jury. The decision from the main jury on the Palme d'Or was unanimous."

Aside from its film notoriety, I've always liked this building. Although many people may view it as hopelessly dated, it was considered cutting-edge when it went up.
Did I mention that it's a 3/D International - I. M. Pei design? No wonder the French went crazy for it.

Edited by dbigtex56
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dated, perhaps, but it really uses the space efficiently.  

 

It's also the same granite as the tower, even though it's several blocks away, and curvy rather than angular.

 

BTW, that was really the amount of traffic that was around at the time.  We had perhaps half the population we do now.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will not be sentimental about this building. It is akin to the drive-thru McDonald's that used to sit where 609 Main is now, I don't care who designed it (and I'll eat my hat if I.M. Pei was even aware of its existence, probably a junior junior partner). We will always have it on celluloid; hurry wrecking ball.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/9/2019 at 1:26 PM, Nate99 said:

Isn't a significant chunk of that block held up by piers in the river [bayou] bank as part of the bridges over the bayou? 

 

no, there's even a triangle in the NW corner that is open to the bayou beneath.

 

whoever buys this could capitalize on that access, no matter how small.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, samagon said:

 

no, there's even a triangle in the NW corner that is open to the bayou beneath.

 

whoever buys this could capitalize on that access, no matter how small.

 

It could be really interesting, so long as everything was really easy to hose out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it turns out to be residential I can already hear it now.  "We offer direct access to the bayou and have dedicated bike and kayak storage."

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, samagon said:

 

no, there's even a triangle in the NW corner that is open to the bayou beneath.

 

whoever buys this could capitalize on that access, no matter how small.

There’s a guy who takes his lunch on the sidewalk under that corner by the bayou. I’ve seen him on lunchtime walks. The area’s quite good for feeding ducks. I’d think bayou access could be a nice selling point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Urbannizer said:

 

This is choice real estate. Proximity to the Bayou, the Theater District, Restaurants, Park,  Other high rise apartments, and walking distance to the rail and Minute Maid Park. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn’t expect a major skyscraper here (i know nothing) but if it’s anything significant it has a chance to extend our skyline further than ever. I so excite!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This block is one of the first places to flood, so any development is going to have to somehow accommodate that.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Urbannizer said:

 

This is a really nice video but 2 things:

 

It says there's 67,000 residents in 6,000 units?  That's almost 11 people in each apartment

 

Why didn't they show underneath the deck on the bayou side?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, cspwal said:

This is a really nice video but 2 things:

 

It says there's 67,000 residents in 6,000 units?  That's almost 11 people in each apartment

 

 

LOL  I noticed that too.  Drives me crazy when lazy/sloppy developers/promoters/journalists mix up downtown numbers with greater downtown area numbers without clarifying.  In this case it really makes all their numbers look suspect.

Edited by Houston19514

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

Wouldn’t expect a major skyscraper here (i know nothing) but if it’s anything significant it has a chance to extend our skyline further than ever. I so excite!

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, cspwal said:

This is a really nice video but 2 things:

 

It says there's 67,000 residents in 6,000 units?  That's almost 11 people in each apartment

 

Why didn't they show underneath the deck on the bayou side?

 

Now that's density.  You'd have a vibrant street life just by people wanting to get away from their roommates/family. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nate99 said:

 

Now that's density.  You'd have a vibrant street life just by people wanting to get away from their roommates/family. 

 

You've just described a significant portion of NYC's population. With a roommate or two, those 150 sq ft apartments are even cozier than their real estate broker descriptions suggest.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some reason I thought I was play CitySkylines while watching this. If only they made the video in a way where everything looks like miniatures. That would have been really fun. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

UH D should buy that land...

They’ve probably looked at it, but the entity that owns it most likely wants $$$!

 

Is Transwestern the owner, or just representing the owner?

Edited by arche_757
Clarification
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, arche_757 said:

UH D should buy that land...

They’ve probably looked at it, but the entity that owns it most likely wants $$$!

 

Is Transwestern the owner, or just representing the owner?

 

If they can afford that land, downtown has not progressed as much as I think it has. I imagine that block will sell for $15-20 million.

 

Edited by H-Town Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, arche_757 said:

UH D should buy that land...

They’ve probably looked at it, but the entity that owns it most likely wants $$$!

 

Is Transwestern the owner, or just representing the owner?

Another Pittsburgh Cathedral of Learning, eh? Would be nice.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

If they can afford that land, downtown has not progressed as much as I think it has. I imagine that block will sell for $15-20 million.

 

Probably so.  Would be somewhat separated from the rest of the campus, but perhaps a chance at a distinctive structure?  Not that they are necessarily lacking.

 

I imagine a high rise residential project will ultimately end up at that property... ?  Which is good I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, arche_757 said:

Probably so.  Would be somewhat separated from the rest of the campus, but perhaps a chance at a distinctive structure?  Not that they are necessarily lacking.

 

I imagine a high rise residential project will ultimately end up at that property... ?  Which is good I suppose.

 

I think that is the highest and best use, with ground floor retail as long as they can work around the flood issue. Someone may buy it to hold as parking until the residential market is better, or may put a parking garage on part of the site.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

 

I think that is the highest and best use, with ground floor retail as long as they can work around the flood issue. Someone may buy it to hold as parking until the residential market is better, or may put a parking garage on part of the site.

 

 

GFR would be nice, but considering the flooding issue I doubt that would happen, unless ground floor was about 10 feet higher than current ground.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see it in this thread but I've been saying for several years now that this would be the perfect location for a HEB with multi-family on top. The first real major grocer into the downtown market in a while. You have so many units that have only recently come online or are going to come online and, I don't think the Washington Ave or 288 location will be getting this slice of the market. And to protect the HEB from flooding which this property does contend with, you could simply make the ground floor garage parking as they've been doing with their other locations.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since this is literally on top of the bayou, it seems that doing the foundation for anything of any size is going to be pretty challenging.  Sure, it's doable - but what's the cost delta between that and a more conventional location?  Any engineers care to weigh in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I love development, I wish the Buffalo Bayou Partnership could afford it.  Greenspace along the bayou goes a long way toward beatification. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/9/2019 at 11:34 AM, houstontexasjack said:

The property at 212 Milam St., presently occupied by the more-or-less abandoned Chase Motor Bank across the street to the north from Market Square Tower, has recently been listed for sale:

 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/212-Milam-St-Houston-TX/15558588/ (archive link)
Flyer: https://images1.loopnet.com/d2/hCXVs8_0uTVAQw0VAPBx5OyVx7GFAUkYytfqVLw4kKk/document.pdf?dl=1 (archive link)

Transwestern listing: https://transwestern.com/property/212-milam-st- (archive link)
Flyer: https://s3.amazonaws.com/transwestern-property/Flyers/f99467b9-334f-e911-80f5-caa232701e1a.pdf (archive link)

 

Here's hoping for some nice redevelopment to extend the skyline further north.



Google map of 212 Milam St, the lot of the Chase Motor Bank in downtown Houston on the corner of Congress.
UhTOSks.jpg



From the Loopnet listing:

Total Lot Size     1.45 Acre or 63,117 SF of land, per survey

Full City block - Possible uses: high rise residential, hotel,office, & mixed use - Fronts Congress, Louisiana, Franklin, & Milam




From the brochure:

w9OoPCd.jpg


kzKdkhh.jpg


SfN4dj5.jpg


kUS4POn.jpg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Offers were due May 7th, so it is probably under contract now and we'll know in a few months who gets it. I would not be surprised if Hines buys it and holds it until they finish their other two projects in the neighborhood and can assess market conditions at that point. I hate to think that the neighborhood is so reliant on one developer but they've shown the best understanding of how to do downtown development that benefits the surrounding neighborhood as well as themselves (which is self-interest well understood, because benefitting the neighborhood is ultimately self-benefit if you are there for the long term). With their HQ two blocks away they have a strong interest in seeing that this ends up high quality and not another get-rich-quick development where someone throws up an ugly garage with or without some token retail and maybe-oh-maybe we'll eventually put a highrise on top of or next to it. Another good name to see here would be Marvy Finger. Worse case scenario is Camden buys it and sits on it for twenty years, dithering about what to do.

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CrockpotandGravel said:



Google map of 212 Milam St, the lot of the Chase Motor Bank in downtown Houston on the corner of Congress.
UhTOSks.jpg



From the Loopnet listing:

Total Lot Size     1.45 Acre or 63,117 SF of land, per survey

Full City block - Possible uses: high rise residential, hotel,office, & mixed use - Fronts Congress, Louisiana, Franklin, & Milam




From the brochure:

w9OoPCd.jpg


kzKdkhh.jpg


SfN4dj5.jpg


kUS4POn.jpg

 

The building labeled KBR is not the KBR building, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not in any hurry to see the bank building destroyed. I.M Pei designed it to be the child of the TCB Tower which was the father and the building building next door with the parking garage was the mother. That’s how he described it. They are a trio and were designed that way. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Gator80 said:

I’m not in any hurry to see the bank building destroyed. I.M Pei designed it to be the child of the TCB Tower which was the father and the building building next door with the parking garage was the mother. That’s how he described it. They are a trio and were designed that way. 

 

Not to crap on the recently deceased, he has some amazing work in his portfolio, but I don't think that a child of those towers should be celebrated.  To me both of those towers are unattractive.  If this was a drive-through bank in function that was a few miles outside of downtown, I might feel differently.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Gator80 said:

I’m not in any hurry to see the bank building destroyed. I.M Pei designed it to be the child of the TCB Tower which was the father and the building building next door with the parking garage was the mother. That’s how he described it. They are a trio and were designed that way. 

 

Now that i see it... i cant unsee it... It is a cool bank. Wish it wasnt located in such a prime spot...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Gator80 said:

I’m not in any hurry to see the bank building destroyed. I.M Pei designed it to be the child of the TCB Tower which was the father and the building building next door with the parking garage was the mother. That’s how he described it. They are a trio and were designed that way. 

 

Do we know for a fact that Pei himself designed it? His name was on a lot of things that his partners designed. It is hard for me to imagine him designing a drive-thru bank.

 

Even if he designed it... even if Frank Lloyd Wright himself designed it... a drive-thru bank is hostile to an urban neighborhood.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/31/2019 at 12:25 PM, H-Town Man said:

Do we know for a fact that Pei himself designed it? His name was on a lot of things that his partners designed. It is hard for me to imagine him designing a drive-thru bank.

 

Not sure if I understand your point.
As a trained architect, designing a drive-through bank shouldn't have been too difficult a task for him. But, as you mention, he had partners. 
If people are big enough to be a name, of course they'll have assistants. What counts is their stamp of approval. Do you think Edith Head designed each and every outfit that she was given credit for? Didn't Raymond Loewy employ drafters and designers? Heck, even Andy Warhol made no secret that many of his paintings were done in a "factory".
Whether Pei drafted the blueprints, drew a rough sketch, floated an idea, or just gave a curt nod at the finished product is a moot point. It's an I. M. Pei building. If he didn't think so, he had plenty of time to take his name off from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dbigtex56 said:

Not sure if I understand your point.
As a trained architect, designing a drive-through bank shouldn't have been too difficult a task for him. But, as you mention, he had partners. 
If people are big enough to be a name, of course they'll have assistants. What counts is their stamp of approval. Do you think Edith Head designed each and every outfit that she was given credit for? Didn't Raymond Loewy employ drafters and designers? Heck, even Andy Warhol made no secret that many of his paintings were done in a "factory".
Whether Pei drafted the blueprints, drew a rough sketch, floated an idea, or just gave a curt nod at the finished product is a moot point. It's an I. M. Pei building. If he didn't think so, he had plenty of time to take his name off from it.

 

You are saying that the mere fact that I.M. Pei gave his approval to this drive-thru bank makes it an "I.M. Pei building" in the same sense that a building he actually designed and put thought into is an "I.M. Pei building?" I couldn't agree less. If all he did was give a curt nod to it, how does that make it notable? We are interested in I.M. Pei works because we want to see Pei's design mastery, not because we fetishize his name or are in some sort of "collect them all" mindset.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

You are saying that the mere fact that I.M. Pei gave his approval to this drive-thru bank makes it an "I.M. Pei building" in the same sense that a building he actually designed and put thought into is an "I.M. Pei building?" I couldn't agree less. If all he did was give a curt nod to it, how does that make it notable? We are interested in I.M. Pei works because we want to see Pei's design mastery, not because we fetishize his name or are in some sort of "collect them all" mindset.

 

Not trying to be difficult here, but how do we know? Unless we have video footage of the architect sweating over his t-square and drafting table, how can we know who designed which part?
And speaking of FLW and fetishizing, his earliest works are oohed and ahhed over, when by any rational standard they're pretty unremarkable. It shouldn't be surprising if one of Pei's (admittedly) smaller buildings constructed after his talent had fully matured is of interest.
If I'm following your logic correctly, it goes like this: You like Pei. You hate drive-through banks. Therefore, Pei cannot have designed a drive-through bank.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

You are saying that the mere fact that I.M. Pei gave his approval to this drive-thru bank makes it an "I.M. Pei building" in the same sense that a building he actually designed and put thought into is an "I.M. Pei building?" I couldn't agree less. If all he did was give a curt nod to it, how does that make it notable? We are interested in I.M. Pei works because we want to see Pei's design mastery, not because we fetishize his name or are in some sort of "collect them all" mindset.

 

 

When an architect puts their stamp on a drawing of any kind then it does legally become the building of "said architect". Even in the biggest of firms with multiple partners there is usually one partner that is typically the trusted design lead of the group that will give their graces on the project and in that moment they take ownership of it (thats part of the responsibility of being a leader btw. Whether you are highly involved in a particular thing or everything.), even if that doesn't come in the form of a stamp. As far as the rest of this? I don't believe this is what the others here are suggesting. The fact that his name is attached to the building, does make it at least interesting. Is it a masterpiece? Not really. Is it an interesting building for its type? Yeah it actually is. Is it a unique building from a particular time and particular mindset of how cities should be designed and constructed? Most definitely. Should it be razed or kept? Depends on what ideas people have for it. Like all the old gas stations being transformed into unique things, maybe this little building has life left in it with a good idea, and maybe someone has an even better idea that requires it to be razed. We don't know yet, and we should withhold judgement until then. I also like the bit historical revisionism we have been doing regarding modernism and designing in the rising age of the car, in general. Its unwise to view history through the lens of our values today as its unfair to those who lived before us who could have never had the foresight to see what we see today. In fact, many architects (including I.M.Pei) not only embraced the car (Le Corb considered the car as a model of how we should design buildings), to at least being interesting in how one designs the experiences of a building to incorporate the car. It truly was a complete revolution in how one approached buildings, design, and life as a whole. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it never had merit or it doesn't have any elements that are true or truisms.

 

2 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

Not trying to be difficult here, but how do we know? Unless we have video footage of the architect sweating over his t-square and drafting table, how can we know who designed which part?
And speaking of FLW and fetishizing, his earliest works are oohed and ahhed over, when by any rational standard they're pretty unremarkable. It shouldn't be surprising if one of Pei's (admittedly) smaller buildings constructed after his talent had fully matured is of interest.
If I'm following your logic correctly, it goes like this: You like Pei. You hate drive-through banks. Therefore, Pei cannot have designed a drive-through bank.

 

 

I believe the terms you are looking for to describe the logic would be: "Emotional Reasoning", and "Dichotomous Reasoning (Black-or-White Thinking)".

Edited by Luminare
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Luminare said:

 

 Should it be razed or kept? Depends on what ideas people have for it.

 

Yet another food hall?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, JLWM8609 said:

 

Yet another food hall?

 

That would be fun. We could make it a drive-in food hall! That would be cute.

Edited by Luminare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

Not trying to be difficult here, but how do we know? Unless we have video footage of the architect sweating over his t-square and drafting table, how can we know who designed which part?
And speaking of FLW and fetishizing, his earliest works are oohed and ahhed over, when by any rational standard they're pretty unremarkable. It shouldn't be surprising if one of Pei's (admittedly) smaller buildings constructed after his talent had fully matured is of interest.
If I'm following your logic correctly, it goes like this: You like Pei. You hate drive-through banks. Therefore, Pei cannot have designed a drive-through bank.

 

 

If you read a few posts up, you will see that I merely questioned whether Pei designed this, without asserting anything. I said "Do we know for a fact that Pei designed this?" I never said "Pei cannot have designed a drive-thru bank."

 

Also, note that my last post was in response to your suggestion that even if Pei "only gave a curt nod to it" does not change its status. I was challenging whether a building that a great architect only gave a curt nod to would be worth preserving. The post was within the context of a hypothetical discussion and should have been read as such.

Edited by H-Town Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

When an architect puts their stamp on a drawing of any kind then it does legally become the building of "said architect". Even in the biggest of firms with multiple partners there is usually one partner that is typically the trusted design lead of the group that will give their graces on the project and in that moment they take ownership of it (thats part of the responsibility of being a leader btw. Whether you are highly involved in a particular thing or everything.), even if that doesn't come in the form of a stamp. As far as the rest of this? I don't believe this is what the others here are suggesting. The fact that his name is attached to the building, does make it at least interesting. Is it a masterpiece? Not really. Is it an interesting building for its type? Yeah it actually is. Is it a unique building from a particular time and particular mindset of how cities should be designed and constructed? Most definitely. Should it be razed or kept? Depends on what ideas people have for it. Like all the old gas stations being transformed into unique things, maybe this little building has life left in it with a good idea, and maybe someone has an even better idea that requires it to be razed. We don't know yet, and we should withhold judgement until then. I also like the bit historical revisionism we have been doing regarding modernism and designing in the rising age of the car, in general. Its unwise to view history through the lens of our values today as its unfair to those who lived before us who could have never had the foresight to see what we see today. In fact, many architects (including I.M.Pei) not only embraced the car (Le Corb considered the car as a model of how we should design buildings), to at least being interesting in how one designs the experiences of a building to incorporate the car. It truly was a complete revolution in how one approached buildings, design, and life as a whole. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it never had merit or it doesn't have any elements that are true or truisms.

 

 

I believe the terms you are looking for to describe the logic would be: "Emotional Reasoning", and "Dichotomous Reasoning (Black-or-White Thinking)".

 

Luminare, I was wondering when you were going to arrive with a 300 word post in which you pretentiously decide every question. We are obviously not talking about what is "legally" considered Pei's building, but whether merely having his name on it makes it worth preserving when it is not the highest and best use of some pretty valuable land and does not contribute to an urban historic district that is probably Houston's only walkable neighborhood. These, by the way, would be my reasons for razing it, not "just because I don't like it," and I think these are more than just the "values of today." I like how, as usual, you give a bunch of opinions but never commit yourself to either side of the question at hand, viz., "Should it be preserved or not?"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...