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quietstorm

Pedestrian Downtown

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I'd think Dallas St with it's wide sidewalks could be a good place for vendor stalls.  As it stands it has no pedestrian appeal compared to other streets.

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On 6/24/2019 at 11:41 PM, HNathoo said:

Why does anyone really desire dry goods retail? Just so you can look at the store front and not go inside? There are a few exceptions, but that ship has largely sailed. I’m perfectly happy with a street lined with restaurants and bars. 

 

I have to agree with you here. Online shopping, for almost anything, is here to stay. Utilizing the space for niche shopping like pop-up craft fairs, art markets and even a farmers market might make more sense.  I could see the Flea by Night at Discovery Green for example, expanding down Dallas. 

I would add that mid-range retailers like H&M and Zara might do well. The ones I’ve been to on 5th Avenue, in Baltimore Harbor, in DC, etc. still attract crowds. 

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Honestly we need a solid big named retailer like Macy’s or Bloomingdales. I drove down Dallas St today and there is so much potential for a thriving shopping area. 

 

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Yes online shopping is here to stay but it seems to me in a place where you have 125,000 people concentrated every day—many of them looking for an excuse to get out of the office at lunch and other times—retail should be able to work just fine (with the obvious “if done right” qualifier. In many ways it’s just as, if not more, convenient.

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2 hours ago, Urbannizer said:

 

Ha. It's not every day you get to login and see the back of your own head.

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3 hours ago, jermh said:

Ha. It's not every day you get to login and see the back of your own head.

 

So are you-

 

A. Guy with button up

B. Guy with blue shirt

C. Woman with white top

D. Woman in dress 

E. Other

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This cyclist was very comfortable riding along Main. There was a time when pedestrian/cyclist activity downtown was a lot more precarious. 

370F3E52-73B4-4DA2-9FA3-765BEDEA5143.jpeg

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Appears to be a very skilled cyclist, balanced while remaining stationary.

 

Still, your point is well taken.  Main's actually a pretty good north - south route for two wheels.

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2 hours ago, mollusk said:

Appears to be a very skilled cyclist, balanced while remaining stationary.

 

Still, your point is well taken.  Main's actually a pretty good north - south route for two wheels.

Yeah, most of the folks on the Bcycle bike shares still stick to the sidewalks.  For a hot and humid Saturday afternoon, pedestrian activity was pretty solid along Main and Market Square Park. Discovery Green, Avenida de las Americas and the restaurants in the area (Phonecia, Kulture, Xochi)  were all packed. 

Edited by quietstorm
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38 minutes ago, quietstorm said:

Yeah, most of the folks on the Bcycle bike shares still stick to the sidewalks.  For a hot and humid Saturday afternoon, pedestrian activity was pretty solid along Main and Market Square Park. Discovery Green, Avenida de las Americas and the restaurants on the area (Phonecia, Kulture, Xochi)  were all packed. 

 

Especially Avenida de las Americas. They really did an A+ job with that entire stretch that fronts the convention center. Its a really visually interesting setting now. Lots of activity with different kinds of places to sit or things to do. The cities effort has really paid off here.

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On 7/6/2019 at 4:29 PM, mollusk said:

Appears to be a very skilled cyclist, balanced while remaining stationary.

 

Still, your point is well taken.  Main's actually a pretty good north - south route for two wheels.

 

I wonder if they have considered putting the Sharrows down main street, at least from Downtown to Wheeler

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"Nobody goes there anymore.  It's too crowded." - Yogi Berra :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, TheSirDingle said:

Alright so about 4 days ago I was driving from UH to drop off some friends after a party (designated driver), and at 1am I decided to go through downtown just to see what's going on. And let me tell you something, if the main corridor wasn't packed to the brim. I swear the blocks with the historic buildings had at least 2000+ people alone, there were just so many people walking around. For 1am downtown seemed pretty lively (except around Louisiana street), especially around the bars, parks, and food places.

Hopefully this is a sign that downtown is becoming a 24/7 neighborhood. 

 

 

I saw it like that one weekend right after all the college kids came home for the Summer. A friend of mine from Pearland was like "Does it always get this packed downtown?" I was just as surprised. I felt like I was in a different city. 

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Back in the late 90's and early 2000's the Market Square/ Main street area was packed every night from Thursdays until Sundays, with bars like Cabo's, Solero's, The Mercury room, Tryst, Notsuoh, The Black Cat Jazz bar, Capitol Bar, Sambuca, and several others I can't remember.

Actually it was like that back in the late 60's early seventies. Back then it was Love Street, La Bastille, Ruby Reds, Wiliies Pub, La Carafe, Warrens,The Sweetheart of Texas, and other shops in the underground area of the Magnolia Bldg. 

So that area has seen cycles over the last fifty years. 

I really believe that this time they will stick due to the residential growth and the time is right for downtown.

 

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1 hour ago, bobruss said:

Back in the late 90's and early 2000's the Market Square/ Main street area was packed every night from Thursdays until Sundays, with bars like Cabo's, Solero's, The Mercury room, Tryst, Notsuoh, The Black Cat Jazz bar, Capitol Bar, Sambuca, and several others I can't remember.

Actually it was like that back in the late 60's early seventies. Back then it was Love Street, La Bastille, Ruby Reds, Wiliies Pub, La Carafe, Warrens,The Sweetheart of Texas, and other shops in the underground area of the Magnolia Bldg. 

So that area has seen cycles over the last fifty years. 

I really believe that this time they will stick due to the residential growth and the time is right for downtown.

 

I think the biggest difference between the 60's/Today vs the late 90's/2000's is that during the 2000's a lot of those place were packed because downtown was a new adventure to many Houstonians. That phased out and more stable business like today popped up over time. 

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6 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I think the biggest difference between the 60's/Today vs the late 90's/2000's is that during the 2000's a lot of those place were packed because downtown was a new adventure to many Houstonians. That phased out and more stable business like today popped up over time. 

 

Yeah, mid 2000s to early 2010s had downtown filled with TSU students and the random people seeking a good time that wasn't oriented with Washington or Midtown. Now its much more stable, with an established sense of who they are, unlike (I would argue) Midtown/Washington. Main/Market Square park has even attracted Tipping Point to re-open their sneakerhead/limited retail shop up over there. Its becoming, against all odds (if you remember going to Franks at 2am for pizza in 2011 and the absolute desolation all around their parking lot...whew), an established area where 21+ can go to have a chill night, a crazy night, and anything in between. Which is to me a hallmark of a good nightlife district. 

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You also have to take into consideration the cycle of the bar business.

It is constantly moving to new areas.

After  the  sixties into the mid seventies in downtown, after that the bars and kids all left to go out to Richmond around Chimney Rock to Hilcroft.

The Galleria area became a popular spot off of Westheimer.

In the mid 90's  they moved to Shepherd Plaza where that whole shopping complex became a magnet for bars and clubs.

Then everyone moved back downtown to Market Square and the surrounding area in the 90's early 2000's up to the Super Bowl.

After that the Washington Ave corridor became very popular.

Then everything moved to Midtown. The East end became a popular area, and In the last five years Market Square and all of

downtown has come back along with bars all over town like Axelrad, Kirby Ice House Cottonwood, and many more.

14 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I think the biggest difference between the 60's/Today vs the late 90's/2000's is that during the 2000's a lot of those place were packed because downtown was a new adventure to many Houstonians. That phased out and more stable business like today popped up over time. 

 

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Speaking of bars this Sunday afternoon our band TINIGHT, will be playing 6:00 - 8:00, at The Rehab bar at 1658 Enid and I'd love all Haifers to join us.

Theres no cover and they have a big outdoor area. So come out and hear the old man play some indie rock, blues, and punk.

I'd love to put some faces with the names!

Edited by bobruss
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27 minutes ago, X.R. said:

 

Yeah, mid 2000s to early 2010s had downtown filled with TSU students and the random people seeking a good time that wasn't oriented with Washington or Midtown. Now its much more stable, with an established sense of who they are, unlike (I would argue) Midtown/Washington. Main/Market Square park has even attracted Tipping Point to re-open their sneakerhead/limited retail shop up over there. Its becoming, against all odds (if you remember going to Franks at 2am for pizza in 2011 and the absolute desolation all around their parking lot...whew), an established area where 21+ can go to have a chill night, a crazy night, and anything in between. Which is to me a hallmark of a good nightlife district. 

And think about the vibe we give those visiting when they see how busy it is downtown. We've come a long way.

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18 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

It’s been like that every weekend for a while now..

Yep, even for us older folks.  Hubby and I particularly enjoy bars like One Armed Scissor on Travis and Bravery Chef Hall's "secret garden" patio area that faces Main. Downtown is now place we or our 20-something kids could hang out.  There is starting to become something for everyone, even Avenida de las Americas and Discovery Green were packed with families last Friday night.  

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On 9/6/2019 at 10:53 AM, j_cuevas713 said:

I think the biggest difference between the 60's/Today vs the late 90's/2000's is that during the 2000's a lot of those place were packed because downtown was a new adventure to many Houstonians. That phased out and more stable business like today popped up over time. 

 

the type of place is what differentiates it. I can't speak to the 60s, but I can speak to the late 90s and today. I do think there's a link between the late 90s and today.

 

On 9/6/2019 at 6:39 PM, quietstorm said:

Yep, even for us older folks.  Hubby and I particularly enjoy bars like One Armed Scissor on Travis and Bravery Chef Hall's "secret garden" patio area that faces Main. Downtown is now place we or our 20-something kids could hang out.  There is starting to become something for everyone, even Avenida de las Americas and Discovery Green were packed with families last Friday night.  

 

this is the difference.

 

the late 90s downtown... it was like, straight up meat market, get drunk, dance and hook up. the music is turned up so loud that there is no point in trying to even learn your partners name. there was nothing date night about any of those places. 

 

maybe it's just that I'm not looking for those places, but in downtown, places like this are very much in the minority now.

 

the places that are there with a single goal of serving drinks, they are all a bit more sophisticated than dancing to electronic music and hooking up.. you can actually have a conversation with someone.

 

they draw two different types of people.

 

add to it that people like me who spent the better part of half a decade weekending around downtown in the early '00s we are familiar and comfortable downtown after dark. Now we have offices downtown, and after work we may stay late to wait for traffic to die down a bit before heading home. or we may take advantage of our parking contract to come out on a saturday night for dinner and drinks.

 

and now there's living downtown also, so it's really a great timing of everything.

Edited by samagon
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The primary pockets in DT that have established pedestrian activity are Discovery Green/Convention Center, Main Street (i.e., JW Marriott/Finn Hall), and Market Square Park (i.e., Niko-Nikos/Franks/Barnaby's).  

 

Where do you see the next DT "pedestrian pocket" evolving?IMG_8684.jpeg.0996d4aceeb83fdc8f5c2ca78124d40b.jpeg

Edited by quietstorm
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1 hour ago, quietstorm said:

The primary pockets in DT that have established pedestrian activity are Discovery Green/Convention Center, Main Street (i.e., JW Marriott/Finn Hall), and Market Square Park (i.e., PNiko-Nikos/Franks/Barnaby's).  

 

Where do you see the next DT "pedestrian pocket" evolving?IMG_8684.jpeg.0996d4aceeb83fdc8f5c2ca78124d40b.jpeg

 

Up and down Main. Then push east of Main and north of Market Square toward the bayou.

 

Also, Discovery Green and Minute Maid/Texas Ave. will reach toward each other.

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I could see the new south downtown park developing a nice pedestrian pocket, but it has a few things against it - mainly that only 2 retail spots are adjacent to it, and none really face it.  I do wonder why the skyhouse garage retails weren't planned to face each other across Pease street

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Thought i'd share this book. I burned through it on one flight from Houston to Chicago last weekend without falling asleep. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865477728?pf_rd_p=183f5289-9dc0-416f-942e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=ZVY9XHD60ZJT1W7AJ7RB

 

Nonetheless, little dated, but Houston is mentioned a few times, in a negative light. There's some good data points on pedestrian infrastructure and policies to create more walkable neighborhoods. I found the book rather compelling. 

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On 11/17/2019 at 3:49 PM, Purdueenginerd said:

Thought i'd share this book. I burned through it on one flight from Houston to Chicago last weekend without falling asleep. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865477728?pf_rd_p=183f5289-9dc0-416f-942e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=ZVY9XHD60ZJT1W7AJ7RB

 

Nonetheless, little dated, but Houston is mentioned a few times, in a negative light. There's some good data points on pedestrian infrastructure and policies to create more walkable neighborhoods. I found the book rather compelling. 

 

Did the book reference the things mentioned  in this article?https://www.govtech.com/fs/6-Ways-to-Make-a-More-Walkable-Houston.html

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On 11/17/2019 at 3:49 PM, Purdueenginerd said:

Thought i'd share this book. I burned through it on one flight from Houston to Chicago last weekend without falling asleep. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865477728?pf_rd_p=183f5289-9dc0-416f-942e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=ZVY9XHD60ZJT1W7AJ7RB

 

Nonetheless, little dated, but Houston is mentioned a few times, in a negative light. There's some good data points on pedestrian infrastructure and policies to create more walkable neighborhoods. I found the book rather compelling. 

Nice just bought it. Looks like a good read. 

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On 11/18/2019 at 11:30 PM, BeerNut said:

 

Did the book reference the things mentioned  in this article?https://www.govtech.com/fs/6-Ways-to-Make-a-More-Walkable-Houston.html

 

Indeed, a lot of the themes are covered in the book, with the exception of the tunnel system: though I'm not sure I agree with the author in regards to his opinion regarding the tunnel system. 

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In the "6 Ways to Make a More Walkable Houston" article, Speck says, rightly and obviously, that our 8,000 housing units downtown is not enough.  But then he says that "Most places strive to come as close to a 1:1 ratio as possible". In the context, the 1:1 ratio clearly means 1 housing unit for each job.  But even if he meant 1 resident for every job, is that a rational expectation?  I'm not sure there is a downtown/CBD in America that comes close to meeting that supposed goal.  I don't think Manhattan even comes close.

Edited by Houston19514

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4 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

In the "6 Ways to Make a More Walkable Houston" article, Speck says, rightly and obviously, that our 8,000 housing units downtown is not enough.  But then he says that "Most places strive to come as close to a 1:1 ratio as possible". In the context, the 1:1 ratio clearly means 1 housing unit for each job.  But even if he meant 1 resident for every job, is that a rational expectation?  I'm not sure there is a downtown/CBD in America that comes close to meeting that supposed goal.  I don't think Manhattan even comes close.

Imagine damn near 200+k people in Downtown at all times. Not only would the sidewalks be full, but the tunnels would be too. Honestly would probably be the most pedestrian activity in the world, all within a 1.7 square mile area. 

Edited by TheSirDingle
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On 11/17/2019 at 3:49 PM, Purdueenginerd said:

Thought i'd share this book. I burned through it on one flight from Houston to Chicago last weekend without falling asleep. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865477728?pf_rd_p=183f5289-9dc0-416f-942e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=ZVY9XHD60ZJT1W7AJ7RB

 

Nonetheless, little dated, but Houston is mentioned a few times, in a negative light. There's some good data points on pedestrian infrastructure and policies to create more walkable neighborhoods. I found the book rather compelling. 

 

The book is really quite good! I also highly recommend it. He has a fairly active Twitter account, so if you ever have any questions there's a decent shot that he'll answer. 

 

17 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

In the "6 Ways to Make a More Walkable Houston" article, Speck says, rightly and obviously, that our 8,000 housing units downtown is not enough.  But then he says that "Most places strive to come as close to a 1:1 ratio as possible". In the context, the 1:1 ratio clearly means 1 housing unit for each job.  But even if he meant 1 resident for every job, is that a rational expectation?  I'm not sure there is a downtown/CBD in America that comes close to meeting that supposed goal.  I don't think Manhattan even comes close.

 

Just looked up Manhattan. 3.1 mil workers:1.6 mil residents. And of course they have significant issues with transit with 1.5 million people commuting into Manhattan every day. 

 

I also found this list, which takes some liberties, but finds how many people live in downtowns versus the city and metro populations. No surprise, Houston is one of the lowest in the country of cities with a metro population > 1 million https://iamemenhiser.com/2017/01/08/downtown-residential-population-by-city/

 

If we were to by like:

Chicago 5% - Houston needs 115,000

Seattle 10% - 230,000

Philly 11% - 253,000

Miami 18% - 414,000

Manhattan 50% - 1.15 million

 

This somewhat presents a problem with downtown Houston only having just over 100,000 jobs.

 

15 hours ago, TheSirDingle said:

Imagine damn near 200+k people in Downtown at all times. Not only would the sidewalks be full, but the tunnels would be too. Honestly would probably be the most pedestrian activity in the world, all within a 1.7 square mile area. 

 

Manhattan is 22.82 mi^2, so to match number of residents/jobs per area you would need 121k population and 231k jobs. 

 

Twice as many jobs is reasonable. 10X as many population would be rough. SkyHouse has 336 units. The Marlowe only has 100. Aris Market Square has 274. The Rice 312. You would need a LOT of buildings. Like 10 times as many for each existing and planned high rise. Not sure that will be feasible in our lifetimes. 

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It's probably not, but you have to start somewhere. Until they created the housing incentives a few years ago, there were probably as many street people living downtown as people who paid to live there. The good thing though is that the city realized the shortcomings and did something to jump start the turn around. Look how fast Midtown has exploded. It was a literal ghost town.

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Not a remotely apples to apples comparison. Downtown Houston is extremely small - that link is using "Greater Center City" as downtown Philadelphia, which is bigger than Downtown Houston, Midtown, the Museum District, the Medical Center, and EaDo combined.

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On 11/21/2019 at 9:25 AM, Texasota said:

Not a remotely apples to apples comparison. Downtown Houston is extremely small - that link is using "Greater Center City" as downtown Philadelphia, which is bigger than Downtown Houston, Midtown, the Museum District, the Medical Center, and EaDo combined.

 

Exactly right.  Chicago and Dallas use expansive definitions of downtown as well. A comparable area for Houston would have to include, at the very least, EADO and Midtown.

Edited by Houston19514
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SImilarly, Manhattan is a much larger area than the downtown and midtown areas of Manhattan (the business districts). And most of the residents don't live in the business districts.

 

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I would consider midtown houston to be part of the city center. I know when I lived there I routinely used the light-rail to get to downtown and the med center. I would imagine a not-unsubstantial percentage of midtown residents commute to either downtown or the med center and contribute to the pedestrian traffic of both. If theres going to be signficant residential growth in the city center, Midtown and South Downtown are primed for the most growth, in my opinion. 

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Midtown is the perfect place for growth since land is cheaper and there is much more available. Also as Purdueenginerd said it's right in between the med center and downtown.

If you really want to compare apples to apples, I'd say you'd have to include Midtown, eastern half of Montrose, EADo, and the Med Center as part of downtown. Thats what we all think will eventually happen anyway when the areas merge. Manhattan is approximately 13 miles by 2 miles. It's only six miles from north downtown to the edge of the med center. So it's still  a much smaller area than Manhattan.

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I really don't think Manhattan is a useful comparison. Center City Philly, Chicago, LA? Sure. But Manhattan is genuinely unique and cannot realistically be reproduced. 

 

And that's fine. There only needs to be one Manhattan. I absolutely want Houston to densify substantially but Manhattan is not a useful case study.

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41 minutes ago, Texasota said:

I really don't think Manhattan is a useful comparison. Center City Philly, Chicago, LA? Sure. But Manhattan is genuinely unique and cannot realistically be reproduced. 

 

And that's fine. There only needs to be one Manhattan. I absolutely want Houston to densify substantially but Manhattan is not a useful case study.

I would say closer to Philly. 

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4 hours ago, Texasota said:

Not a remotely apples to apples comparison. Downtown Houston is extremely small - that link is using "Greater Center City" as downtown Philadelphia, which is bigger than Downtown Houston, Midtown, the Museum District, the Medical Center, and EaDo combined.

 

For fun, I drew an area with about the same area as Philly for comparison.

 

7xrJu6T.png

 

These are some of the densest areas and Houston and there's probably what, maybe 80k people that live in that box? As low as 50k?

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5 hours ago, Toopicky said:

 

If you were trying to include the densest population areas you obviously don't know the city well .... in fact you chose some of the least densely populated  areas in town  (downtown, west Eado, Hermann Park and the TMC)  outside of 'refinery row'.  Are you from Houston?

 

This comes off as a little needlessly accusatory, FYI. 

 

Anyway, to settle the population density of Houston here's an interactive map, from 2014. 

 

https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=85a821d13a4f4502a85f71c4aae8bae8


 

Quote

 

In this map, the yellow areas of highest density range from 30,000 to 150,000 persons per square kilometer.  In those areas, if the people were spread out evenly across the area, there would be just 4 to 9 meters between them.  Very high density areas exceed 7,000 persons per square kilometer.  High density areas exceed 5,200 persons per square kilometer. The last categories break at 3,330 persons per square kilometer, and 1,500 persons per square kilometer.


 

 

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48 minutes ago, Purdueenginerd said:

 

This comes off as a little needlessly accusatory, FYI. 

 

Anyway, to settle the population density of Houston here's an interactive map, from 2014. 

 

https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=85a821d13a4f4502a85f71c4aae8bae8


 

 

Great resource for population density, but I do have one problem with it. That is the age, while 5 years may not seem like a lot of time for population statistics, for a city growing like Houston it is. I suspect a good amount of inner loop Houston has had a sizable increase in population density. 

For example, Downtown Houston went from only 3800 in 2013, to 8000 in 2018. according to: https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/downtown-houston-experiencing-population-boom/285-549842840
While it's estimated (headcannon) there's around 11k people living in Downtown right now.  Anyway wonder if they have an updated map? 

Edited by TheSirDingle
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