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Pedestrian Downtown

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Yes, some of us were genuinely confused. And when I asked what you meant, your refused to actually engage with me and just proclaimed your meaning to be obvious. I found that incredibly obnoxious, and since this is a discussion forum, I don't think that's an unreasonable reaction.

 

And no, I still don't really understand what "the location of downtown is going to get inferior real quick" is supposed to mean. Are you saying that improvements on the East End will somehow have a negative impact on Downtown itself?

If anything I would expect the opposite to be true, especially as the Allen Parkway and Washington Avenue corridors (and Midtown) continue to develop. Increasingly Downtown will actually the locus of a vibrant central city, rather than just one cluster of office highrises among many.

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The Eastside blooming would only serve to make the location of downtown more meaningful (being the center of so much as opposed to the edge).  

 

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1 hour ago, kbates2 said:

The Eastside blooming would only serve to make the location of downtown more meaningful (being the center of so much as opposed to the edge).  

  

 

Yes, when I leave downtown I go west 75% of the time and east 25% of the time. Making it 50/50 would make downtown even more central.

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2 hours ago, AnTonY said:

 

The problem is that you people on this site don't understand the concept of nuance. All my original point suggested was that revitalization of the bayou would radically shift the designated desirable area from west-focused to east-focused, which would cause implications on the desirability of the current downtown location. Somehow, that got spun into that I'm suggesting actual physical movement of downtown.

 

I really don't care anything about the west side, quite frankly, there's just nothing to it naturally. That goes whether we are talking about stepford-suburbs like Katy, or the urban-planning mess that is the Galleria. 

 

And I already acknowledge the current unfortunate status of the East side. But nevertheless, that area holds, by far, the best potential when it comes to integrating Houston with its natural features. No longer is the bayou a dingy brown creek that overspills the banks with every flood, it's an actual riparian feature that frames the land and provides significant recreation. Combine that with San Jacinto Monument and Battleship Texas, and Houston reconnects all the pieces that grant it sense of place: it finally becomes a true Bayou City. So yes, the East is indeed slave to toxic industry now, but as soon as clean energy sources hit greater uses, I can easily see that land being reclaimed in a vein similar to the revitalization of certain Rust Belt cities (i.e. Pittsburgh) after steel and automotive industries were outsourced.

 

FINALLY...now we're getting somewhere.  So here's the problem.  Let's say the need for oil and related chemicals goes away.  A doubtful scenario, but let's make pretend that will happen.  Are we also talking about eliminating the port as well (the non-oil and chemical part)?  I would think so, since the goal is to return the bayou to it's natural or some other similar state.  Move all the oil and gas and port activities to Galveston or somewhere up or down the coast.  When that happens, the economy of Houston will pretty much collapse.  Now it'd be nice to say it would be replaced by battery factories or such, but the likelihood of that is pretty low.  Why would they all relocate here to build our economy back up?  The reason Houston exists in it's current state is the industry along the ship channel.  That industry is here because we're at the place where the pipelines and railroads meet the sea.  That's also why the higher end development has historically trended west and north.  Those are the directions AWAY from the industries in question.

 

So, any way you slice it, whether it happens quickly or over a long period of time, in all likelihood Houston would drop dramatically in population and economic terms under this scenario.  When that happens, we won't be able to support many of the things that make Houston a fun place to live.  Large swaths of the city will be desolated and the crime rate will go up (see Detroit, MI).  I think that is way too high a price to pay for a lovely riparian vision.  The east side is already redeveloping to it's natural limits at the edge of the industrial areas.  As someone else stated, that really makes downtown more central, which supports the already obvious renaissance downtown has had in the last couple of decades.

 

It's fun to imagine what could be, but part of that is also imagining the intended and unintended consequences.

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On 4/3/2019 at 10:22 AM, AnTonY said:

 

It's just funny how the city ended up focusing itself on the tiniest, dingiest, most sensitive portions of its waterway. But lo and behold, the parts that are actually grand and impressive are wasted on pollutive industry.

 

Reclaiming the bayou will definitely be a true game-changer for the city when it comes to connecting people here with the outdoors.

 

however you look at it, buffalo bayou east of town (it turns into the ship channel at about wayside) hosts two of the biggest drivers of the Houston economy: the port of Houston, and midstream/downstream oil/gas related things (tank farms, and refineries). 

 

reclaiming the bayou from shipping and refining will never happen. not in my lifetime, not in my children's lifetime, not even their children's lifetime.

 

if you look at it historically, the port of Houston used to be located specifically at the confluence of WOB and BB. considering there is a park there now, and one of the biggest industry drivers inside of 610 has vacated (KBR site) and the area is being revitalized, east downtown, and the east side of town is going to get a huge boon. and like I said, most of the industry part of the ship channel doesn't start till after wayside, there's a lot of development that can now happen between there and downtown.

 

specific to the area that is inside 45/59/10... there were some huge things planned and built in the 70s and 80s that really kind of make the east side of downtown less than desirable. luckily, most of all that happened there was buildings were torn down and became surface lots. and luckily, recent developments have been making the east part of downtown downright livable. 

Edited by samagon
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1 hour ago, quietstorm said:

There’s a distinct pedestrian culture developing. Some observations from this afternoon. 

 

1) We walk slower...There’s no East Coast sense of “urgency” or “energy” of the Bay Area; yet the easy pace has a unique bayou city feel that goes along with our climate. 80 percent humidity  just makes you move slower lol. 

 

2) We’re not pretentious...unlike our cousins up I-45 no one is “dressed to the nines”...😏

 

3) It’s Friday but it’s still a workday...while there are noticeably more people from all walks of life downtown; the majority are still downtown workers despite most being in casual Friday dress (see comment above 😊).  

 

4) It’s Friday and downtown is also a place to play...in addition to the many workers venturing from the tunnels to explore the growing street level food options,  there was a significant number of folks enjoying beers at the Flying Saucer, strolling through Discovery Green, walking their dogs, pushing baby strollers, shopping in Forever 21 and just “being” downtown. Main Street (fittingly) is by far the busiest corridor. 

 

 

 

 

7F5039C9-DC20-4DC3-BEA0-92EB7837B2F4.jpeg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sidewalks downtown are also, apparently, a place to pick your nose :lol: 🤮 :lol: 

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16 minutes ago, samagon said:

 

sidewalks downtown are also, apparently, a place to pick your nose :lol: 🤮 :lol: 

Actually, it was great seeing the  tremendous diversity of people comfortable just walking around downtown Houston. 

Edited by quietstorm

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2 hours ago, quietstorm said:

 

1) We walk slower...There’s no East Coast sense of “urgency” or “energy” of the Bay Area; yet the easy pace has a unique bayou city feel that goes along with our climate. 80 percent humidity  just makes you move slower lol. 

 

 

maybe we're just less healthy and not used to walking.   :ph34r:  I tell people I'm going to walk to Montrose from MidMain area and they think that's crazy far to walk.

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1 minute ago, BeerNut said:

 

maybe we're just less healthy and not used to walking.   :ph34r:  I tell people I'm going to walk to Montrose from MidMain area and they think that's crazy far to walk.

Possibly a combination of both. My husband is an avid runner. He works in the BoA building and when we meet for lunch and walk to Niko Niko’s, Franks or Finn Hall, we just walk slower. My son is in the Bay Area and when we visit SF, we all walk faster, same for New York. But when we’re in DT Houston, we typically walk a lot slower (including my son). It’s more cultural (South being “slower” more “laid back”), if you ask me. 

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2 hours ago, BeerNut said:

 

maybe we're just less healthy and not used to walking.   :ph34r:  I tell people I'm going to walk to Montrose from MidMain area and they think that's crazy far to walk.

I walk over five miles from my workplace to the Kingwood Library several times a week. Sometimes I'll run a little just to speed things up. I have had five people in two months pull over and ask me if I needed a ride. Nice folks, but I tell them thanks but I want to walk. I think they think I'm nuts. Oh well.

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3 hours ago, quietstorm said:

Actually, it was great seeing the  tremendous diversity of people comfortable just walking around downtown Houston. 

 

Take the same pictures in July and see if there's a noticeable difference.  Maybe with the demise of suit and tie workwear things will liven up during the summer.

5 hours ago, quietstorm said:

There’s a distinct pedestrian culture developing. Some observations from this afternoon. 

 

2) We’re not pretentious...unlike our cousins up I-45 no one is “dressed to the nines”...😏

 

Is Dallas still that way?  I remember it being so back in the '80s but more recently it seems like people there don't get dressed up much either.  Or at least no where near like they used to.

 

 

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1 hour ago, august948 said:

 

Take the same pictures in July and see if there's a noticeable difference.  Maybe with the demise of suit and tie workwear things will liven up during the summer.

 

Is Dallas still that way?  I remember it being so back in the '80s but more recently it seems like people there don't get dressed up much either.  Or at least no where near like they used to.

 

 

The dress at Klyde Warren park is noticeably “fancier” than anything I’ve ever seen at Discovery Green. My husband’s family is there. Not much has changed.

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1 hour ago, august948 said:

 

Take the same pictures in July and see if there's a noticeable difference.  Maybe with the demise of suit and tie workwear things will liven up during the summer.

 

Is Dallas still that way?  I remember it being so back in the '80s but more recently it seems like people there don't get dressed up much either.  Or at least no where near like they used to.

 

 

Hell yeah dallas is still that way. I went there to see a Rockets game and for anyone not from there, especially Houston, they are rude as hell. Very stuck up and arrogant for no reason. dallas is a boring city. 

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9 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Hell yeah dallas is still that way. I went there to see a Rockets game and for anyone not from there, especially Houston, they are rude as hell. Very stuck up and arrogant for no reason. dallas is a boring city. 

 

I visisted Dallas for the first time almost 2 weeks ago and I went with an open mind, I really tried to curve my Houston bias.

 

That being said, in the week I stayed there, I found Dallas to be pretty unremarkable. “Boring” would be an accurate term to describe it as well. Sure, there are certain areas of the city that have seen revitalization, but the architecture is especially old and cold. My wife (who cares very little about development news/architecture) went out of the way to comment on how ugly a majority of the buildings were downtown. It seems like Dallas hit a big boom during the 60s-70s when buildings were largely composed on concrete. They are more of a concrete jungle than us! And surprisingly, walking around areas of downtown/uptown Dallas to be less walkable than Houston.

 

I found the surrounding cities/suburbs to be more appealing than Dallas proper itself, and I think that might be its biggest strength. This isn’t necessarily meant to be a post dedicated to bashing Dallas, just my honest opinion and initial experience after visiting. 

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Quote

 

^^^it seems you may have visited the wrong areas of town, as I do not quite recognize the city you are referring to. Especially the part about all the 60’s-70’s old and cold concrete architecture. It seems you might not have been too successful at curbing your Houston bias. 

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21 hours ago, BeerNut said:

 

maybe we're just less healthy and not used to walking.   :ph34r:  I tell people I'm going to walk to Montrose from MidMain area and they think that's crazy far to walk.

People in walkable cities aren’t walking these distances either, but have access to better public transportation. Most people. take the Red or Green lines in DC to travel a couple miles like we drive a couple miles in Houston. It’s about convenience more than anything else. 

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On 2/7/2019 at 3:24 PM, kbates2 said:

 

HOUSTON%20MAIN%20AT%20FRANKLIN%201928.jp

 

Not sure how long it has been there but you can kind of see the two buildings that were there before on the left in this photo.  One was a bank (the far one), and not sure of what the three story building was next to it.

 

In the 80's, there was a house on Stratford St that had a couple of very large Corinthian capitals in the front yard. They had been salvaged from a downtown bank building that had been recently demolished. 
I'm not 100% certain but it seems plausible that they came from this building. If someone can supply the name of the bank, it would be appreciated.
edit: I think I've answered my own question. This appears to be the South Texas National Bank building, which was demolished in 1983.

Edited by dbigtex56
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4 hours ago, Jbarn said:

^^^it seems you may have visited the wrong areas of town, as I do not quite recognize the city you are referring to. Especially the part about all the 60’s-70’s old and cold concrete architecture. It seems you might not have been too successful at curbing your Houston bias. 

Then you haven’t been to downtown Dallas but if you’re referring to neighborhoods like Deep Ellen and Lower Greenville then there is no bias in knowing that compared to Houston those neighborhoods are very limited and small. Yet they are some of the cities most well known neighborhoods. I lived in Dallas for 4 years and it is very spread out and boring. Very overrated compared to what it has to offer. Even neighborhoods that had a sense of walkability catered to pretentious crowds alone. 

Edited by j_cuevas713
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Look, everyone loves hating on Dallas, and rightly so, but maybe every discussion of how Houston is changing/improving doesn't have to devolve into  a d!ck measuring contest with our evil twin?

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12 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Then you haven’t been to downtown Dallas but if you’re referring to neighborhoods like Deep Ellen and Lower Greenville then there is no bias in knowing that compared to Houston those neighborhoods are very limited and small. Yet they are some of the cities most well known neighborhoods. I lived in Dallas for 4 years and it is very spread out and boring. Very overrated compared to what it has to offer. Even neighborhoods that had a sense of walkability catered to pretentious crowds alone. 

 

Wow. Severe inferiority complex you have there. Someone calling Dallas spread out,, as compared to Houston, shows how totally biased and unrealistic you are. You might focus on improving your city rather than cutting others down to boost yours up. 

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1 hour ago, Texasota said:

Look, everyone loves hating on Dallas, and rightly so, but maybe every discussion of how Houston is changing/improving doesn't have to devolve into  a d!ck measuring contest with our evil twin?

 

Yeah, I should've just kept my opinion to myself, seems as though I've ruffled a few feathers 😂

 

1 hour ago, Jbarn said:

 

Wow. Severe inferiority complex you have there. Someone calling Dallas spread out,, as compared to Houston, shows how totally biased and unrealistic you are. You might focus on improving your city rather than cutting others down to boost yours up. 

 

This is a forum dedicated to Houston, and as such, comparisons between other Texas cities are inevitable. I simply gave my initial impressions from my first visit, things may change the more I travel there, there's no need to get all bent out of shape. There were many great things I liked in Dallas: the zoo is nice, there are several excellent museums, and the food (like many major cities in Texas) was diverse and wonderful.

 

That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out the flaws in a city. Houston has several flaws, and I'm not going to be ignorant to them since addressing these issues can make a city greater. From my initial experiences (as seen above), there are many things I disliked about Dallas that still makes me believe Houston is the superior city in my mind. Remember, this is just my opinion, and I value certain aspects of cities that others don't necessarily value as much as I do.

 

Apologies for diverting the discussion on this thread, back to our regularly scheduled program. 

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3 hours ago, Jbarn said:

 

Wow. Severe inferiority complex you have there. Someone calling Dallas spread out,, as compared to Houston, shows how totally biased and unrealistic you are. You might focus on improving your city rather than cutting others down to boost yours up. 

Haha riiight the fact of the matter is I LIVED THERE and yes it’s very spread out. Houston is spread out but it doesn’t feel disconnected. Cutting down others? Lol I have the complex yet you’re the sensitive one 👍🏼

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7 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Haha riiight the fact of the matter is I LIVED THERE and yes it’s very spread out. Houston is spread out but it doesn’t feel disconnected. Cutting down others? Lol I have the complex yet you’re the sensitive one 👍🏼

 

Giggle, giggle

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On 4/4/2019 at 7:24 PM, Texasota said:

And no, I still don't really understand what "the location of downtown is going to get inferior real quick" is supposed to mean. Are you saying that improvements on the East End will somehow have a negative impact on Downtown itself?

 

If anything I would expect the opposite to be true, especially as the Allen Parkway and Washington Avenue corridors (and Midtown) continue to develop. Increasingly Downtown will actually the locus of a vibrant central city, rather than just one cluster of office highrises among many.

 

It depends on how far in the future you are looking. I agree with your point in regards to the nearer terms. But when more eastward bayou developments like East River crop up, you're going to end up with more of an urban-nature integration to a degree not afforded as strongly in the current hotspot of Downtown/Midtown. Such recreation is important in what makes an area desirable. 

 

On 4/4/2019 at 7:50 PM, kbates2 said:

The Eastside blooming would only serve to make the location of downtown more meaningful (being the center of so much as opposed to the edge).  

 

But suppose that boom goes all the way along the Bayou, to Harrisburg or beyond? Then the city fabric becomes quite linear/elongated, to a point that Downtown is a bit farther west of the midline.

 

Edited by AnTonY

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On 4/4/2019 at 9:56 PM, august948 said:

 

FINALLY...now we're getting somewhere.  So here's the problem.  Let's say the need for oil and related chemicals goes away.  A doubtful scenario, but let's make pretend that will happen.  Are we also talking about eliminating the port as well (the non-oil and chemical part)?  I would think so, since the goal is to return the bayou to it's natural or some other similar state.  Move all the oil and gas and port activities to Galveston or somewhere up or down the coast.  When that happens, the economy of Houston will pretty much collapse.  Now it'd be nice to say it would be replaced by battery factories or such, but the likelihood of that is pretty low.  Why would they all relocate here to build our economy back up?  The reason Houston exists in it's current state is the industry along the ship channel.  That industry is here because we're at the place where the pipelines and railroads meet the sea.  That's also why the higher end development has historically trended west and north.  Those are the directions AWAY from the industries in question.

 

So, any way you slice it, whether it happens quickly or over a long period of time, in all likelihood Houston would drop dramatically in population and economic terms under this scenario.  When that happens, we won't be able to support many of the things that make Houston a fun place to live.  Large swaths of the city will be desolated and the crime rate will go up (see Detroit, MI).  I think that is way too high a price to pay for a lovely riparian vision.  The east side is already redeveloping to it's natural limits at the edge of the industrial areas.  As someone else stated, that really makes downtown more central, which supports the already obvious renaissance downtown has had in the last couple of decades.

 

It's fun to imagine what could be, but part of that is also imagining the intended and unintended consequences.

 

Of course, this assumes that the city and business leaders would just let it happen. But the business leaders are quite smart, I'm sure they'd figure out a way to pivot and persist during that shift. Even if it means having to acquire new startups. The city would also have to invest in itself to both attract the talent, and/or create it.

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The Port of Houston will be large for a very long time.  This sounds crazy but Houston is the furthest west and north large ocean going vessels can go. They can go fairly far north along the Mississippi river but not much more westward. I think the locks on the St. Lawrence Seaway limit the size of vessels. 

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I still think you're over-exaggerating the dog-eat-dog nature of these neighborhood competitions. As the city keeps growing, there are just going to be more great neighborhoods, and increased proximity will allow flow between them. 

 

I mean, downtown and midtown as the "current hotspot" is a weird way to put it, considering they're over 150 years old. They've changed radically over that time and gone through long periods of decline, but they're not going anywhere. 

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19 minutes ago, Twinsanity02 said:

The Port of Houston will be large for a very long time.  This sounds crazy but Houston is the furthest west and north large ocean going vessels can go. They can go fairly far north along the Mississippi river but not much more westward. I think the locks on the St. Lawrence Seaway limit the size of vessels. 

 

 I think ocean going vessels only go as far as Baton Rouge, about 40 miles further north than Houston.

Edited by Houston19514

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28 minutes ago, Twinsanity02 said:

The Port of Houston will be large for a very long time.

(I know, this thread is wandering off topic, but...)
Have facilities been expanded at the Port to accommodate the greater traffic generated by the Panama Canal expansion project?
I checked their website, but they're vague on timelines.

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1 hour ago, dbigtex56 said:

(I know, this thread is wandering off topic, but...)
Have facilities been expanded at the Port to accommodate the greater traffic generated by the Panama Canal expansion project?
I checked their website, but they're vague on timelines.

 

According to this the port bumped up 14% after the canal was done and they are looking at expansion.

 

https://www.chron.com/business/retail/article/Port-Houston-container-imports-surged-last-year-12481938.php

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On 4/5/2019 at 8:35 PM, august948 said:

 

Take the same pictures in July and see if there's a noticeable difference.  Maybe with the demise of suit and tie workwear things will liven up during the summer.

Interesting to see whether there are fewer people walking in the heat. No need to wait for July... it’ll be 93° tomorrow. 😅

Edited by Sky-guy
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Keep in mind - some areas are going to have more pedestrian activity than others, and time of day enters into the mix, too.  

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On 4/6/2019 at 8:11 PM, j_cuevas713 said:

Then you haven’t been to downtown Dallas but if you’re referring to neighborhoods like Deep Ellen and Lower Greenville then there is no bias in knowing that compared to Houston those neighborhoods are very limited and small. Yet they are some of the cities most well known neighborhoods. I lived in Dallas for 4 years and it is very spread out and boring. Very overrated compared to what it has to offer. Even neighborhoods that had a sense of walkability catered to pretentious crowds alone. 

 

Where is the Deep Ellen neighborhood? I can’t find it in a map. 

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1 hour ago, Jbarn said:

 

Where is the Deep Ellen neighborhood? I can’t find it in a map. 

 

I believe it's "Deep Ellum", which is just slightly northeast of downtown Dallas.

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Downtown Dallas still has the Original Neiman Marcus, the Majestic Theater and the extremely tourist-y area around the JFK Assassination.   Downtown Houston doesn't have a department store, open historic theater, or tourist destination that rival those spots, so to a traveller/tourist/suburbanite, Dallas's downtown still might seem like it has more to offer.  That being said, downtown dallas has literally 1 decent bar right now: Midnight Rambler.   

 

 

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Dallas is all about 'seem'. Where's their baseball stadium? Arlington? It all depends on what you want to look at and compare. For example, people in Dallas love comparing uptown Dallas to East Houston. It serves the 'seem' argument very well.

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18 minutes ago, crock said:

Downtown Dallas still has the Original Neiman Marcus, the Majestic Theater and the extremely tourist-y area around the JFK Assassination.   Downtown Houston doesn't have a department store, open historic theater, or tourist destination that rival those spots, so to a traveller/tourist/suburbanite, Dallas's downtown still might seem like it has more to offer.  That being said, downtown dallas has literally 1 decent bar right now: Midnight Rambler.   

 

 

 

We visited the JFK Assassination Museum, it was very nice! I wouldn't say Houston has a museum quite like that downtown, but we do have Sam Houston Park and The Heritage Society (granted those houses could use some upkeep and maintenance). Most of the museums in Houston are centralized in the Museum District near the Medical Center. 

 

The Majestic Theater is also very nice, but again, I would say that the Houston Theater District is superior to the one in Dallas, just in terms of venues and performances the city hosts.

 

And in terms of Neiman Marcus, I have to be honest in saying I didn't even know one existed downtown. That being said, I have to question whether or not having that store downtown is a significant draw for locals or tourists. True, Houston doesn't have a major retail store like that downtown (correct me if I'm wrong), but we do have GreenStreet and The Shops at Houston Center. By themselves, they aren't anything too impressive, but at least there are renovations/expansions planned for both venues. Furthermore, most of the high-dollar retail is concentrated in Uptown Houston with the Galleria.

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Why would we want a museum where one of the greatest presidents to ever live was murdered!? Lol Did we forget he made his infamous speech at Rice here in Houston??? 

4 hours ago, Jbarn said:

 

Where is the Deep Ellen neighborhood? I can’t find it in a map. 

Ellum* but yeah be sarcastic or whatever butthurt you want to be lol

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On 4/4/2019 at 12:34 PM, AnTonY said:

 

Of course it has, people are too busy dancing around the answer and bloviating to infinity rather than acknowledging the point and its nuances. Reefmonkey did this a lot, and it really kills the quality of discussion.

Smearing me in absentia to try to distract from the fact that you're making a fool of yourself in yet another discussion - you're a gutless tool.

Edited by Reefmonkey
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1 hour ago, CaptainJilliams said:

 

We visited the JFK Assassination Museum, it was very nice! I wouldn't say Houston has a museum quite like that downtown, but we do have Sam Houston Park and The Heritage Society (granted those houses could use some upkeep and maintenance). Most of the museums in Houston are centralized in the Museum District near the Medical Center. 

 

The Majestic Theater is also very nice, but again, I would say that the Houston Theater District is superior to the one in Dallas, just in terms of venues and performances the city hosts.

 

And in terms of Neiman Marcus, I have to be honest in saying I didn't even know one existed downtown. That being said, I have to question whether or not having that store downtown is a significant draw for locals or tourists. True, Houston doesn't have a major retail store like that downtown (correct me if I'm wrong), but we do have GreenStreet and The Shops at Houston Center. By themselves, they aren't anything too impressive, but at least there are renovations/expansions planned for both venues. Furthermore, most of the high-dollar retail is concentrated in Uptown Houston with the Galleria.

 

Yeah, I've been to the original Neiman Marcus several times, it's nice and all in a mid-20th Century downtown department store way, but I keep hearing retail is dead, I'm not sure how important downtown department stores are to a vibrant urban life anymore. Up until a few years ago Houston still had the original downtown Foleys, and Macy's closed it because it wasn't making enough money. I agree about Houston's theatre district being superior to Dallas'. Dallas' only really nice downtown venue is the Meyerson, but it is only for symphony and other musical performances. I don't understand why they built it the way they did, but it was extremely short-sighted, which is why if Dallasites wanna see the national touring production of Hamilton, they've gotta go down to the Music Hall at Fairpark, which is a dump.

 

And I'm not saying this to diss Dallas, it was my college town, I visit friends there a lot I actually like it, I could live there again. I always see Dallas and Houston as two equally good, slightly different cities, I've always thought the back-and-forth rivalry was silly.

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31 minutes ago, Reefmonkey said:

 

And I'm not saying this to diss Dallas, it was my college town, I visit friends there a lot I actually like it, I could live there again. I always see Dallas and Houston as two equally good, slightly different cities, I've always thought the back-and-forth rivalry was silly.

 

Agree. I don't think they're all that different TBH. 

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53 minutes ago, Reefmonkey said:

 

Yeah, I've been to the original Neiman Marcus several times, it's nice and all in a mid-20th Century downtown department store way, but I keep hearing retail is dead, I'm not sure how important downtown department stores are to a vibrant urban life anymore. Up until a few years ago Houston still had the original downtown Foleys, and Macy's closed it because it wasn't making enough money. I agree about Houston's theatre district being superior to Dallas'. Dallas' only really nice downtown venue is the Meyerson, but it is only for symphony and other musical performances. I don't understand why they built it the way they did, but it was extremely short-sighted, which is why if Dallasites wanna see the national touring production of Hamilton, they've gotta go down to the Music Hall at Fairpark, which is a dump.

 

And I'm not saying this to diss Dallas, it was my college town, I visit friends there a lot I actually like it, I could live there again. I always see Dallas and Houston as two equally good, slightly different cities, I've always thought the back-and-forth rivalry was silly.

 

The Winspear opera house, Wily theatre, and Moody performance hall, all in the arts district, are also quite nice. Hamilton would have played at the Winspear, but there was a struggle amongst the arts groups and the music hall group won. 

1 hour ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Why would we want a museum where one of the greatest presidents to ever live was murdered!? Lol Did we forget he made his infamous speech at Rice here in Houston??? 

Ellum* but yeah be sarcastic or whatever butthurt you want to be lol

 

It just seemed strange that you “lived” in Dallas for 4 years and didn’t  know the proper name for Deep Ellum. 

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Still, best venue in Texas is the Bass in FW.

 

I’m guessing j Cuevas was a victim of Autocorrect. 

Edited by Reefmonkey

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4 hours ago, crock said:

Downtown Dallas still has the Original Neiman Marcus, the Majestic Theater and the extremely tourist-y area around the JFK Assassination.   Downtown Houston doesn't have a department store, open historic theater, or tourist destination that rival those spots, so to a traveller/tourist/suburbanite, Dallas's downtown still might seem like it has more to offer.  That being said, downtown dallas has literally 1 decent bar right now: Midnight Rambler.   

 

 

Don’t forget the Dallas museum of art, nasher  sculpture garden, Perot science museum, Dallas world aquarium, new holocaust museum, old red courthouse museum, arts district, farmers market, reunion tower, pioneer park sculptures, klyde warren park (which bridged the gap between downtown and uptown), west end ( although only a shadow of its former self but still has some neat architecture), Victory Park ( which is exploding with development), etc..., all are in the core and are within walking distance of each other. And with a 5 minute Uber ride, you can be in Deep Ellum, the Cedars, Lower Greenville, uptown, etc... Dallas’s smaller size sometimes works to its advantage. 

Edited by Jbarn

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Yawn. You still have to sit in a 2-hour long traffic jam if you want to see the Rangers lose.

 

Let's see, in Houston the pedestrians have The Wortham, The Alley, Jones Hall, Jones Plaza, the downtown aquarium, Discovery Green, The GRB Convention Center, Tranquility Park, Sesquicentennial Park, Sam Houston Park, Greenstreet, The Shops at Houston Center, Market Square, the Astros, the Dynamo, the Rockets, Buffalo Bayou Park, Eleanor Tinsley Park and the Johnny Steele. Midtown is exploding with development, ect (all within walking distance of DT). A 5-minute Metrorail will get you to the greatest museum district in the state (please don't make me list all 150 of them), Hermann Park, the zoo, the Miller Outdoor Theatre, Rice University, the Texas Medical Center 1,2 and soon to be 3 (also exploding with development) and that stadium where they have the Superbowl sometimes. All of that can be done without a car.  A 5-minute Uber will get you to Montrose, the Heights and the Kirby area (also exploding with development) ect. ect. ect. Let's not forget Uptown Houston isn't really that far away either. 

Edited by Response

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5 minutes ago, Response said:

Yawn. You still have to sit in a 2-hour long traffic jam if you want to see the Rangers lose.

 

Let's see, in Houston the pedestrians have The Wortham, The Alley, Jones Hall, Jones Plaza, the downtown aquarium, Discovery Green, Tranquility Park, Sesquicentennial Park, Sam Houston Park, Greenstreet, The Shops at Houston Center, Market Square, the Astros, the Dynamo, the Rockets, Buffalo Bayou Park, Eleanor Tinsley Park and the Johnny Steele. Midtown is exploding with development, ect (all within walking distance of DT). A 5-minute Metrorail will get you to the greatest museum district in the state (please don't make me list all 150 of them), Hermann Park, the zoo, the Miller Outdoor Theatre, Rice University, the Texas Medical Center 1,2 and soon to be 3 (also exploding with development) and that stadium where they have the Superbowl sometimes. All of that can be done without a car.  A 5-minute Uber will get you to Montrose, the Heights and the Kirby area (also exploding with development) ect. ect. ect. Let's not forget Uptown Houston isn't really that far away either. 

 

Not one single thing you listed in the actual core would get me down there as a tourist, unless I were going to see a performance of some type. 

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I'm sure Discovery Green has as many tourist as your little Klyde Warren. Your stuff isn't exactly Fisherman's Wharf or Buckingham Palace either you know.

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2 minutes ago, Response said:

I'm sure Discovery Green has as many tourist as your little Klyde Warren. Your stuff isn't exactly Fisherman's Wharf or Buckingham Palace either you know.

 

Totally agree about that part. Downtown Dallas has come very far, but has very far to go still, just as downtown Houston has and does. I just think that from a tourist standpoint, Dallas has more to offer in a more compact, walkable area than Houston does. Dallas smaller size, as is always mentioned on here, plays to its benefit.

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