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tierwestah

TMC Developments Vs Uptown Dallas Development

  

106 members have voted

  1. 1. urbanly speaking, which one is better?

    • Texas Medical Center
      63
    • Uptown Dallas
      12
    • This topic choice sucks!
      31


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Everyone is always speaking of Uptown Dallas developments and how its coming along as far as urbanity. A certain member pointed out in another thread that Houston's TMC has similar developments as Uptown Dallas urbanly speaking. For one thing, the light rail runs right through TMC and there are booming projects. Although it's just in the field of Medical research (how boring!).

But which developments are better UT or Medical Center?. Houston also has nearby Midtown and Musuem District, and Rice Village to add to the area. So on a large scale, which city is more developed? Gimmie some thoughts.

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i just want to say thank you to those of who actually voted. To those of you who casted your vote to the "This Topic Choice sucks option", i got a big middle finger that goes out to each of you! :)

Edited by tierwestah

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I picked the "sucks" option because I don't see the point of these little versus pissing matches. They're the reason people leave web sites like SkyscraperPage and SkyscraperCity. What point do they serve? Why would you compare a medical center district in Houston with a non-medical district in Dallas? It doesn't make sense. It's like those "Milwaukee vs. Kansas City" flamewars that pop up all the time on SSP. WHO CARES?

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did you not read my second post on this thread? Because they both are urban developments that are occuring in both cities and i wanted to see what others thought of the developments and development patterns that both of these urban areas have on the city . Pay Attention EDITOR!

Edited by tierwestah
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I picked the "sucks" option because I don't see the point of these little versus pissing matches. They're the reason people leave web sites like SkyscraperPage and SkyscraperCity. What point do they serve? Why would you compare a medical center district in Houston with a non-medical district in Dallas? It doesn't make sense. It's like those "Milwaukee vs. Kansas City" flamewars that pop up all the time on SSP. WHO CARES?

SSC? yes. SSP? no. I love the latter. Other than that I agree with editor. A huge middle finger to me too.

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I think I understand what Tierwestah's trying to do.

Uptown Dallas has focused greatly on creating a solid urban residential enviroment that will need to be filled in with expanded commercial development (and we mean beyond the West Village, for example).

Meanwhile, the TMC has a seriously dense core of commercial development that is well integrated into, for example, heavy mass transit as well as other urban amenities such as parks and cultural institutions yet it is also lacking for an integrated residential component (not that there isn't one, just that it certainly isn't as prevalent as Uptown Dallas). Thus, the question of is Uptown Dallas' development heading more to that desired mix or is the TMC doing so?

At least, that's what I get out of the question. I certainly wouldn't compare the two based on "like" or on some other subjective category.

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in all fairness, it's actually a good topic because both of these areas are two booming areas in each of the city. Maybe the topic title was just worded wrong.

Editor, I think the topic starter was just trying to compare the urbanness of the areas, not the business aspect. Even i've seen where members on this forum do this quite often, mentioning urban areas of other cities as examples of areas relative to Houston's. I myself am guilty.

But I didn't see anything wrong with this topic until the mentioning of middle fingers going out to people. I think that's when the topic choice sucks option grew more popular!

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The topic sucks. The two areas of town have nothing in common other than what was already pointed out. . .they are in urban environments. Anyone who says that the TMC is "booming" should qualify that statment a little bit more. If you mean in terms of highrise buildings, Medical facilities, pedestrian traffic between 10:00 a.m. to 5:30 p.m., I would agree. Other than that, what could you possibly mean? You want to compare the two? Go anywhere in Uptown (1st learn what is actually considered Uptown Dallas) and TMC on Wednesday through Monday and one will see the starck contrast between the two.

. . .and, yeah, yeah, I already know, a huge middle finger to me too.

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The topic sucks. The two areas of town have nothing in common other than what was already pointed out. . .they are in urban environments. Anyone who says that the TMC is "booming" should qualify that statment a little bit more. If you mean in terms of highrise buildings, Medical facilities, pedestrian traffic between 10:00 a.m. to 5:30 p.m., I would agree. Other than that, what could you possibly mean? You want to compare the two? Go anywhere in Uptown (1st learn what is actually considered Uptown Dallas) and TMC on Wednesday through Monday and one will see the starck contrast between the two.

. . .and, yeah, yeah, I already know, a huge middle finger to me too.

Yeah yeah we know, Dallas rules.

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I think I understand what Tierwestah's trying to do.

Uptown Dallas has focused greatly on creating a solid urban residential enviroment that will need to be filled in with expanded commercial development (and we mean beyond the West Village, for example).

Meanwhile, the TMC has a seriously dense core of commercial development that is well integrated into, for example, heavy mass transit as well as other urban amenities such as parks and cultural institutions yet it is also lacking for an integrated residential component (not that there isn't one, just that it certainly isn't as prevalent as Uptown Dallas). Thus, the question of is Uptown Dallas' development heading more to that desired mix or is the TMC doing so?

At least, that's what I get out of the question. I certainly wouldn't compare the two based on "like" or on some other subjective category.

Actually by definition it's almost all non-commercial, not-for-profit. All 42 TMC institutions are not-for-profit.

So, I live and work here. What is the definition of urbanity? Being able to live comfortably without a car.

I'm able to commute and get around easily by bike -- my house, the TMC, the Rice Village. However, I still usually drive to the grocery store, and when I need to buy anything unusual.

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I actually voted on this poll. I love both areas but i voted for uptown Dallas due to the residential infill. Although TMC has a dense commericial core, it is quite different from Uptown Dallas. Both areas are urban areas each of the city's though.

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Editor, I think the topic starter was just trying to compare the urbanness of the areas, not the business aspect. Even i've seen where members on this forum do this quite often, mentioning urban areas of other cities as examples of areas relative to Houston's. I myself am guilty.

Maybe I just worry too much about things getting out of hand. I should wait until they do before I criticize a topic.

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The Med Center is such a unique environment for me.

I have probably never been to Uptown Dallas...last time I was in the Metroplex I was in Coppell and Irving. Uptown? It probably wasn't around the last time I drove around McKinney Ave's environs like '98 or so, so I would not know.

Still, Uptown Dallas from what I gather is probably another one of those cute nouveaux leisure-residential areas along the lines of San Diego's Little Italy, Sugarland Town Center and what not.

My wife used to work at Methodist circa 2000-2001 and I just loved the overall part downtown, part campus formation of it when I drove around before picking her up.

In 2004 when my family took turns with the vigils over my grandma who was hospitalized at St. Lukes, I just marveled at what a totally different experience it was than some other "urban" pedestrian areas which focused more on entertainment.

Sometimes at night, I would walk skywalks, the streets, the campuses and all that when I got bored. While not typically a nocturnal pedestrian area, there were still some staff and other visitors out and about. The semi-deserted night time feel made me feel like I was in some sci-fi movie because the Med Center grounds really do have a cool futuristic night-time look to them.

Besides during the daytime, I've always liked the PURPOSEFUL energy and people-watching of the Med Center. Living here in San Diego, I do get tired of these cute Old Towns and La Jollas with the same old tourists and Kodak kiosks.

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I proud of this topic because it reminds us of just how unique our medical center. I mean, we're comparing our TMC to an ever-changing Uptown Dallas.

Our medical facilities have done a magnificent job at staying on top in terms of development, research, and comfort to it's patients. Probably have the best medical center in the world (can't think of any better). And Hermann Park, with the Houston Zoo, it's state-of the-are playgrounds for

Only thing I worry about is that if Houston's not careful, some developer out there may get the wrong idea and try to develop retail on a space that could have been used for another research facility.

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There may be more urbanity (terrible term) in Big D's Uptown, but the TMC skyline wins hands down.

Especially with the new tower.

Speaking of which, a few weeks ago you could see the Methodist Twins from Fannin @ Franklin.

Now all you can see from there is the new tower. The skyline is growing again.

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Despite my negativity in my earlier post I must say the TMC is impressive when one realizes the use of it. I walked through the area yesterday and seems like it is easiest the most busiest area as far as ped activity in the city. I will try to take pics today if I make it out there again. The area is also pretty close to no surface parking and most of the buildings have few setbacks except for that drive thru bank. The area is malnourished when it comes to retail but the few eateries and retail at the garage at Dryden and Fannin creates a lot of activity. But I have to say TMC has an advantage because the thousands of employees all fall out on one street which is Fannin, there is limited tunnel access and the area has some of the highest priced parking in the city which means less cars and more walkers. Even employees who drive in all the way from the burbs cant help but to take the rail because of the price of parking. All in all downtown could learn a thing or two although we all know downtown has came a long way.

Edited by WesternGulf

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Even employees who drive in all the way from the burbs cant help but to take the rail because of the price of parking.

The smart thing to do, park near the rail line in a free spot in a neighborhood, that is safe, and take the Light Rail to work.

That is the perfect solution for suburban travelers! :D

Edited by Pumapayam

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This is another situation when rail from the suburbs to the city is needed.

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The smart thing to do, park near the rail line in a free spot in a neighborhood, that is safe, and take the Light Rail to work.

That is the perfect solution for suburban travelers! :D

Well, many of the TMC workers park in the Smithlands lots, and take the rail, or the bus to their workplaces in the TMC. The smithlaqnds lots could be converted to garages, though, as long as they remain free for the employees. This might be necessary, in order for them to provide enough parking for all of the new stuff going up in the TMC.

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Isn't TMC larger in square footage size than downtown Dallas (CBD)? I don't understand the comparison with Uptown Dallas.

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Isn't TMC larger in square footage size than downtown Dallas (CBD)? I don't understand the comparison with Uptown Dallas.

Both were essentially booming, and were comparing the increasing urbanity of both.

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The main difference is, when things get built in the Medical Center, they fill up quickly. Compare that to Uptown Dallas where they can't seem to give away the condos and apartments that have been built and yet they want to continue building more (Museum Tower).

I've lived at the Spires for over a year now (40 story condo tower just East of the TMC) and units rarely come on the market there. Right now, there are less than ten available in a building with 230 units.

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The main difference is, when things get built in the Medical Center, they fill up quickly. Compare that to Uptown Dallas where they can't seem to give away the condos and apartments that have been built and yet they want to continue building more (Museum Tower).

I've lived at the Spires for over a year now (40 story condo tower just East of the TMC) and units rarely come on the market there. Right now, there are less than ten available in a building with 230 units.

You're touching on an important point. The medical center has a defined purpose and most of the development is the necessary expansion of existing facilities. Uptown Dallas is more speculative, based on a "build-it-and-they-will-come" mentality. To be sure, there is plenty of that type of thinking in Houston as well (e.g. Houston Pavillions).

I would argue that the overall urbanity of the Medical Center has very little to do with it's importance to the city.

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Exactly. Really, you'd probably do better to compare the Med Center with the Energy Corridor research parks out on 6.

Except that the Med Center also has 2 medical schools, 2 dental schools, 2 big graduate programs, and I'm not sure how many P.A. and nursing programs there are, but that means a lot of students live nearby.

Plus there is a constant turnover of postdocs, residents, and students looking for short-term housing. That's what really drives the condo/apartment market south of TMC. And those people aren't looking for luxury or proximity to Anthropologie, they want affordability and safety! Most of them arrive at their institutions via TMC shuttle buses.

In my experience, most of the permanent staff and faculty commute in, and the distance depends on when they arrived in Houston. Meyerland, Bellaire, and West U. are common residence areas for more established faculty, while the younger arrivals with families tend to settle in Pearland and Sugarland. DINKs and singles have townhouses in Midtown and the Museum District, or some go to Montrose or the Heights.

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Can't speak for Uptown Dallas haven't been there... but I do live very close to the TMC (or as I like to call it... Little Dubai) and I am always impressed at not only how fast the TMC is growing but also in its urbanity. Drive up or down Fannin Street through the TMC during the afternoon and it's bumper to bumper traffic, tons of pedestrian traffic and packed trains and train stations.

Plus the TMC will only continue to grow ... as the population continues to rise so will the demand for medical and health care facilities.

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This topic was created in 2005, yet it keeps getting bumped every time someone responds to the poll. Is it possible to make it so that poll responses don't bump a thread after, say, three months of the original post?

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This topic was created in 2005, yet it keeps getting bumped every time someone responds to the poll. Is it possible to make it so that poll responses don't bump a thread after, say, three months of the original post?

Yes. But the fact that someone took the time to vote in the thread's poll is an indication of recent interest in the topic.

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Yes. But the fact that someone took the time to vote in the thread's poll is an indication of recent interest in the topic.

That and there is always the possibility of gaining from fresh perspective on the topic from a new user.

Provide some members don't beat them down into submission and make them cry.

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I read this article today on my continental flight. Some excellent news about the TMC.

http://www.bisnow.co...ory.php?p=11195

"When the $7 billion worth of projects now underway at Texas Medical Center are completed in 2014, the center will rank as the country's seventh-largest business district - larger than downtown Los Angeles."

Edited by DrLan34

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I've lived at the Spires for over a year now (40 story condo tower just East of the TMC) and units rarely come on the market there. Right now, there are less than ten available in a building with 230 units.

You should post some photos of the view from there. Im sure they will be awesome.

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Med Center, hands down. I don't know raw numbers but I do know they throw up 30+ story towers at TMC like they're playing with Legos. Was it the city of Houston or UT that had the idea to consolidate all that medical in one area, or was it something else entirely?? Whoever it was, they made a brilliant move. Dallas's medical centers are spread all over the place, much like everything else in this city.

As for Uptown, the lower end (Victory Park) got some height in the last decade, but it was all spec building based on the belief that an arena plus high-end retail would make people flock at all hours. They flocked, but only for basketball or hockey, and immediately scattered after games. They sure weren't going to drop $60 for a steak. Then the recession hit, and you know the rest of the story... Epic fail. But the other end of Uptown, west village/state-thomas, has been a success for the most part. There's a lively scene along McKinney ave. with new resaurants and bars opening up all the time, and the trolley is eye-pleasing, if nothing else. State-Thomas is a successful urban infill project, with wide sidewalks and tons of townhouses and apts. (and yes, they're occupied). But TMC is just massive. I don't see Uptown Dallas, or any neighborhood up here for that matter, ever catching up.

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It would be more realistic to compare TMC to Dallas' Medical District and/or Market Center - all are business districts - TMC wins, hands down

Uptown Dallas should be compared to Midtown Houston - both urban neighborhoods adjacent to downtown - in this case Dallas probably wins

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It would be more realistic to compare TMC to Dallas' Medical District and/or Market Center - all are business districts - TMC wins, hands down

Uptown Dallas should be compared to Midtown Houston - both urban neighborhoods adjacent to downtown - in this case Dallas probably wins

I agree, but who cares what goes on in Dallas? This city is too large to worry or compare to a much smaller city. We as Houstonians should focus our attention to cities like LA Chicao, and Philly.This topic should be more relevant in a San Antonio forum.

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The medical area/district in Houston was impressive when we went thru there 2years ago... but The Parkland Medical District is BIGGER and is Growing. Also, there are various apartment complexes popping-up, giving it a Very "urbanesque" feel and look. They just broke ground on another apt complex (possible high-rise.

And, the University of Texas buildings and facilities nearby actually ADD to the size of Parkland. I Love the Big D. !

ps... this site is cool! I'm an architecture enthusiast . :)

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I agree, but who cares what goes on in Dallas? This city is too large to worry or compare to a much smaller city. We as Houstonians should focus our attention to cities like LA Chicao, and Philly.This topic should be more relevant in a San Antonio forum.

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Your comment is right-on and to the point. but.. Houston only has a bigger 'population'. Dallas has a more impressive Skyline all the way around.

Also, I believe Houston/Harris county is the size of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.

When comparing the Metroplex to Harris County, the Metroplex dwarfs it in population AND Structures.

Neither Dallas OR Houston can compare themselves to Chicago :/ ...yet.

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Med Center, hands down. I don't know raw numbers but I do know they throw up 30+ story towers at TMC like they're playing with Legos. Was it the city of Houston or UT that had the idea to consolidate all that medical in one area, or was it something else entirely?? Whoever it was, they made a brilliant move. Dallas's medical centers are spread all over the place, much like everything else in this city.

As for Uptown, the lower end (Victory Park) got some height in the last decade, but it was all spec building based on the belief that an arena plus high-end retail would make people flock at all hours. They flocked, but only for basketball or hockey, and immediately scattered after games. They sure weren't going to drop $60 for a steak. Then the recession hit, and you know the rest of the story... Epic fail. But the other end of Uptown, west village/state-thomas, has been a success for the most part. There's a lively scene along McKinney ave. with new resaurants and bars opening up all the time, and the trolley is eye-pleasing, if nothing else. State-Thomas is a successful urban infill project, with wide sidewalks and tons of townhouses and apts. (and yes, they're occupied). But TMC is just massive. I don't see Uptown Dallas, or any neighborhood up here for that matter, ever catching up.

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I agree with your comment, but... this was 2years ago. ! :)

Have you kept up with all the added changes in Dallas' Medical District? Very impressive. And it's not stopping. ! :)

Edited by Joe Bloh

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The medical area/district in Houston was impressive when we went thru there 2years ago... but The Parkland Medical District is BIGGER and is Growing. Also, there are various apartment complexes popping-up, giving it a Very "urbanesque" feel and look. They just broke ground on another apt complex (possible high-rise.

And, the University of Texas buildings and facilities nearby actually ADD to the size of Parkland. I Love the Big D. !

ps... this site is cool! I'm an architecture enthusiast . :)

Your statements are factually incorrect.

According to the Southwest Medical District's own website, there are only 1,923 licensed hospital beds, 26,878 employees and 4,590 students. It is comprised of only three member institutions spanning 390 acres.

By comparison, the Texas Medical Center in Houston has 6,900 licensed hospital beds, 92,500 employees, 34,000 full time students. It is comprised of 52 member institutions spanning 1,300 acres.

Furthermore, it has about as much built square footage as downtown Houston has office space (which for your reference, is 28% more than Dallas has in its entire downtown area, or can be thought of as the combined total amount of office space in both downtown Dallas and downtown Fort Worth combined).

The ultimate capacity of the Texas Medical Center is 59 million square feet, or more than twice the square footage of downtown Dallas. Of course, I doubt that the TMC institutions would ever allow for a chronically high vacancy rate, pushing 27%, the way that downtown Dallas has been.

Edited by TheNiche

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Your comment is right-on and to the point. but.. Houston only has a bigger 'population'. Dallas has a more impressive Skyline all the way around.

Also, I believe Houston/Harris county is the size of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.

When comparing the Metroplex to Harris County, the Metroplex dwarfs it in population AND Structures.

Neither Dallas OR Houston can compare themselves to Chicago :/ ...yet.

Couldn't disagree more on the skyline. I actually really dislike the Dallas skyline. The building outlined in lights is hideous. Houston's is way bigger, taller, and has about 3 - 4 buildings I like more than any 1 building in Dallas' downtown.

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Your comment is right-on and to the point. but.. Houston only has a bigger 'population'. Dallas has a more impressive Skyline all the way around.

Also, I believe Houston/Harris county is the size of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.

When comparing the Metroplex to Harris County, the Metroplex dwarfs it in population AND Structures.

Neither Dallas OR Houston can compare themselves to Chicago :/ ...yet.

Dude, are you in some kind of contest to see who can make the most fact-free posts?

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TMC versus Uptown is a weird comparison, and probably started just because they were the parts of Dallas and Houston really growing, building on the relative uniqueness within all South Central US cities....

To me, the value of this boom-hood discussion is anecdotal evidence that Houston and Dallas are becoming less similar cities.

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The medical area/district in Houston was impressive when we went thru there 2years ago... but The Parkland Medical District is BIGGER and is Growing. Also, there are various apartment complexes popping-up, giving it a Very "urbanesque" feel and look. They just broke ground on another apt complex (possible high-rise.

And, the University of Texas buildings and facilities nearby actually ADD to the size of Parkland.

Sorry, but your statement is not accurate.

I went to medical school in the TMC and am currently a resident at UTSW/Parkland... there is no comparison between what you call "Parkland Medical District" and the TMC. TMC has something like 35-40 million square feet, which would be top ten for US cities CBD's (larger than Dallas CBD). There is nothing else like it on earth, let alone Dallas.

There are about 5 institutions clustered along Harry Hines in Dallas (Parkland, Children's, TWU nursing, UTSW medical school/research buildings, and UTSW's University Hospitals)... which is nothing to sniff at. New Parkland will certainly be 10x nicer than Ben Taub.

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