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Metro moving toward $3B bond vote for 20-year transit plan

BeerNut

By BeerNut
in Traffic and Transportation

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Texasota

Texasota

Posted
Posted

Isn't it a reasonable position to say that Metro, our existing regional transportation agency that natively serves more than 2/3 of the regional population, should continue to improve its service to the point that remaining surrounding communities/counties see the obvious appeal of adding their own funding and gaining increased access to this now more desirable service?

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102IAHexpress

102IAHexpress

Posted
Posted
53 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Isn't it a reasonable position to say that Metro, our existing regional transportation agency that natively serves more than 2/3 of the regional population, should continue to improve its service to the point that remaining surrounding communities/counties see the obvious appeal of adding their own funding and gaining increased access to this now more desirable service?

 

Probably not. Because our existing transportation agency is by definition -not- regional. It was created for -Harris- county. 

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mollusk

mollusk

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That is not a reason to blow up Metro.  For one thing, there were practically no suburbs outside of Harris County when Metro was formed, and those that were there were much smaller. 

 

Like most major US metropolitan areas there is more than one transit agency in greater Houston - of varying quality of course, as happens when you have more than one of just about anything.  In reality, Brazos Valley Transit (which actually extends as far as Nacogdoches) and Woodlands Express coordinate with Metro pretty decently.  To the west and northwest Metro extends to Katy and dang near Prairie View.  The parts of Galveston County that are within commuting distance to Houston are also pretty close to the Clear Lake Park & Ride.  As the political center of gravity moves in Fort Bend and Brazoria their transit options will likely improve as well. 

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Texasota

Texasota

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How many metropolitan areas in the country are exclusively served by one agency? Even Philly has NJ transit and the Amtrak Keystone (which is mostly a commuter line) in addition to SEPTA; DC has WMATA plus various local bus companies plus regional transit agencies in both Virginia and Maryland. The bay area has BART plus all sorts of different stuff.

 

Again, what is the actual goal here? How does getting rid of Metro help with any actual problems?

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X.R.

X.R.

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I too wish that Metro would be like Dart, which services the entire DFW metro area. If we had the Dart-type train service that they have that goes between FT Worth and Dallas, this thread wouldn't exist and I don't think anyone would complain about Metro. But Dart also operates on a sales tax that all the member cities pay into, which I think would be a problem for some of those areas (and maybe for some of the posters here). To me, the ideal situation is a Dart-like system, but changing people's minds as to what this city can be is happening kind of slowly in Houston.

 

Also, people move to the Woodlands, to Sugarland, to Fulshear, to 290 and 99, etc for specific reasons. Schools are nice and maybe work. But there are other reasons too. If you asked people in charge of these areas, those elected by the people, "Do you want people, potentially from downtown, or maybe Hobby, (if the rail line makes it there) to have easy access to your neighborhood?" I think the resounding answer would be "No." So there's that. NextDoor would be full of meltdowns, everday all day.

 

I would love to have a vote for the surrounding areas to either join Metro, or create a service that supplements it, or even replace it. I think at this point you can get Pearland/Mo City to join, since, as it was described to me by a nurse last friday, no one wants to pay a car note a month to ride a bus that goes up 288 (speaking about the new charter bus Pearland just started). The others are toss ups. 

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Houston19514

Houston19514

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8 minutes ago, X.R. said:

I too wish that Metro would be like Dart, which services the entire DFW metro area. If we had the Dart-type train service that they have that goes between FT Worth and Dallas, this thread wouldn't exist and I don't think anyone would complain about Metro. But Dart also operates on a sales tax that all the member cities pay into, which I think would be a problem for some of those areas (and maybe for some of the posters here). To me, the ideal situation is a Dart-like system, but changing people's minds as to what this city can be is happening kind of slowly in Houston.

 

????  What?  No. DART does not serve the entire DFW metro area.  Not even close. 

 

According to their website, DART's service area is 700 square miles; the DFW metro area covers more than 9,000 square miles. 

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X.R.

X.R.

Posted
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2 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

????  What?  No. DART does not serve the entire DFW metro area.  Not even close.

 

As a Houstonian who lived there up until a few years ago, and who has only ever known buses and the red-line, this is pretty astounding: https://www.dart.org/maps/pdfmaps/DARTRailSystemMap12aug19.pdf

 

I guess there are spaces in the map, but I mean, its pretty dope. I don't know where else I would have wanted to go when I lived there that I couldn't take the train to.

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Houston19514

Houston19514

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42 minutes ago, X.R. said:

 

As a Houstonian who lived there up until a few years ago, and who has only ever known buses and the red-line, this is pretty astounding: https://www.dart.org/maps/pdfmaps/DARTRailSystemMap12aug19.pdf

 

I guess there are spaces in the map, but I mean, its pretty dope. I don't know where else I would have wanted to go when I lived there that I couldn't take the train to.

 

Spaces in the map?  LOL  DART covers a pretty small portion of the metroplex. I think it's safe to say that DART covers a good deal smaller portion of the DFW metroplex than Metro covers of the Houston metro area. 

 

 DART's service area is about 700 square miles of a metro area that covers more than 9,000 square miles.   In a metropolitan area that includes over 100 cities and towns, DART covers 13, covering maybe 1/3 of the metroplex's population.

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Texasota

Texasota

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Posted

One more time: 

  • We have an existing, regional transit authority that serves a supermajority of people in the region.
  • Like nearly every other transit agency in this country, it does not currently serve every person in the region.
  • Like every other transit agency in this country, it does not currently adequately serve the people it does directly serve.
  • It has made significant improvements in service over the last 15 years, though those improvements are ultimately a drop in the bucket.
  • It now has a proposal open to the public to continue making significant, albeit gradual and incremental, improvements to the existing system.

 

Options under discussion:

A: Approve Metro's plan, keeping in mind that this plan is not exclusive: additional funding and political will, potentially the result of changing administrations and/or public sentiment, could allow for more ambitious projects on top of the improvements proposed. To be clear, I do believe the proposed changes have independent value that would result in a significantly improved system, even without any other projects. I also appreciate that the plan is actually pretty fiscally responsible and aims to maximize improvements to the existing infrastructure with a relatively small amount of money.

 

B: Vote down Metro's plan, continuing with our existing system for the immediate future.

 

😄Eliminate Metro's current role by either replacing it entirely or augmenting it with another agency.

 

Option C just seems like a solution in search of a problem to me, and it could *very* easily result in a wide variety of negative consequences.

 

So all I want to know is:

 

What specific problems do you think that would solve?

How would a new agency solve those problems better than making comparatively minor changes to our existing agency?

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gmac

gmac

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3 hours ago, X.R. said:

If you asked people in charge of these areas, those elected by the people, "Do you want people, potentially from downtown, or maybe Hobby, (if the rail line makes it there) to have easy access to your neighborhood?" I think the resounding answer would be "No." So there's that. NextDoor would be full of meltdowns, everday all day.

 

I think you're wrong on this. It reeks of an old wives tale from the white flight days.

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102IAHexpress

102IAHexpress

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2 hours ago, Texasota said:

 

So all I want to know is:

 

What specific problems do you think that would solve?

How would a new agency solve those problems better than making comparatively minor changes to our existing agency?

 

So one more time:

  • We do not have a region wide transportation agency
  • The Feds consider the Houston MSA region as 9 counties.
  • Metro was charted specifically to address the needs of one of those counties (Harris)
  • Prior to Metro, HouTran specifically addressed the needs of only one city (Houston)
  • Unlike most large MSA's, Houston is not focused on region wide transportation solutions. 
  • The current agency, has lost a lot of good will because of lots of reasons (see bait and switch ballot initiatives, broken promises, etc.)

 

Houston has region wide transportation issues. It needs a region wide transportation solution. It's as simple as that. Just repeating that Metro is a region wide service does not make it true. To be fair, Metro does cover the City of Houston and little beyond that. So I think it is fair to call it a municipal regional transit agency. 

 

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X.R.

X.R.

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20 hours ago, BeerNut said:

H-GAC Mobility Studies

 

This is the group that is supposed to be working on a regional mobility plan.  They've already spent money on commuter rail feasibility studies.

 

I scanned the first 10 or so pages of the executive study and it starts off with a doozy of an assumption: "A second dimension of this study is to address connectivity between transit modes within the urban core which will be essential for commuter rail to be fully successful. A given factor that has been assumed is the completion of the urban light rail transit (LRT) system (part of the METRO Solutions Plan, Phase II), which will tie together the major urban districts within the urban core." Which it must make because parts of the study reads like "If we get you from the 290 corridor into Urban Core Houston, there will satisfactory LRT/BRT to get you from Downtown to Uptown/University." 2008 was a wild time.

 

And before anyone gets upset about me teasing that quote, here is a link that details what the 2003 referendum should have brought us, and we didn't get most of Phase II: https://www.texite.org/wp-content/uploads/meeting-presentations/S104A4.pdf

 

"Phase II: 39.7 Miles of Light Rail –

North Corridor 5.4 Miles from UH Downtown to Northline Mall – Southeast Corridor 9.9 from Downtown to Gulfgate Area – East End 6 Miles from Downtown to Griggs Road of South – Westpark 6.6 from Wheeler Station to Hillcroft Transit Center – Uptown 4.4 miles from Westpark to NW Transit Center – Inner Katy 7.4 miles from Downtown to NW Transit Center" 

 

 @Toopicky Yeah I brought up DART (and so does the H-GAC Study) because some posters mentioned commuter rail, which they have. Downtown to Woodlands is about 30 miles, the D to Ft Worth is 32 miles and its a rail line. Downtown to Sugarland town center is 20 miles, the D to Garland is 20 miles of rail. We MIGHT get Hobby (crosses fingers) they have one going to their international airport already. I didn't mean to offend anyone, only wanted to point out that there is a blueprint already in the works in Texas and we're over here thirsty about extending rail 2-3 miles so it goes down Washington. Its so sad its funny. 

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mollusk

mollusk

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For those unfamiliar with H-GAC, it "is the regional organization through which local governments consider issues and cooperate in solving area wide problems."  It covers thirteen counties.  It is the home of the Transportation Policy Council; one of its programs for the last 25 years is Commute Solutions; another is the mobility studies BeerNut linked to and discussed above.

 

So one more time:  Most (if not all) major US metro areas have more than one transit agency.  Sometimes they even overlap (as BART does with Muni / AC Transit / VTA / Caltrain / the ferries / etc., etc.), or CTA and Metra in Chicagoland, MTA, PATH, et al in NYC, etc., etc.

 

And we already have a regional authority to coordinate transit policy, so blowing up Metro serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

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102IAHexpress

102IAHexpress

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To be fair to Metro, things could be worse. Los Angeles' Metro is in the midst of a 40 year, $120 billion, transit plan. Yet their bus ridership is plummeting and light rail ridership is stagnant.

 

 https://www.wsj.com/articles/as-bus-ridership-plummets-in-los-angeles-efforts-to-boost-it-hit-speed-bumps-11566725400?shareToken=st054c3c3c85714a549b3d10411a0995c7

 

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ZRFkris

ZRFkris

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Posted

We don’t know specifics... Sugar Land only represents around 1/7 of fort bend county anyway. You think folks in Katy would support this? Wishful thinking would be to think that Fort Bend county could think 25 years in the future. Let’s be real though.

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X.R.

X.R.

Posted
Posted

"Whereas: METRO ridership peaked in 2001 and has stagnated since, despite double digit population increases in the METRO system area, AND, the green and purple RAIL lines, which opened in 2015, still carry fewer riders on an average day than nine of Metro’s main bus routes, and"

 

lol. I don't doubt their research, but its like "lets point to these three rail lines that have been limited by political pressure as to where they could expand to" as proof that it doesn't work. Very snake eating its tail-ish. I am 1000% certain that if Houston had the DART as I said earlier, @102IAHexpress would be happy. Unfortunately, Houston never had that chance, whether its Metro's fault, the Mayors' faults, the rain's fault, my mom's fault, or anything/anyone else's fault. I just want a fast, 30 min ride to Hobby, and something like 45 mins to IAH, and something similar for the Woodlands, all from DT. However that is achieved, Rail/BRT/Flying Cars/A Single Lane on a Highway Dedicated to buses, doesn't matter. I just want it to be public transit. Then we can evaluate it and see what works for Houston. With those three routes, I think it would solve a lot of the Metro hand-ringing.

 

Edit: And I feel like those three requests with their timelines aren't obnoxious when compared to other cities. At least based on the travels I could afford with my measly, millennial budget.

 

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cspwal

cspwal

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So I just spent too long looking at first Metro's monthly ridership numbers, and then poring over the last 20 years of annual reports.  Here's what I found

First off, Metro doesn't have monthly boarding data on their website for more than 10 years I charted it out below

 738029498_Metromonthlyridership.PNG.16c71ff471d8e185552ebd942d037458.PNG

 

You can see that it has climbed a little, but the big change is the larger share of MetroRail vs bus

 

I then ran into a problem - Metro reports "Transit Boardings" in the annual reports, which isn't the same as the monthly ridership (the report says it includes MetroLift; the average difference was 4.3 million boardings a year, so I'm not sure if that's all Metrolift or something else, but it seemed to be consistently there all 10 years I had the extra data)

 

Anyway, using "transit boardings", here is the Metro ridership going back to 1993

1187520554_TransitBoardings.PNG.9165ff9b06971e7e5967ddef90e1b3e9.PNG

 

According to this, Metro Ridership peaked in 2006 with 102,827,629 boardings, and fell of a cliff after the recession, and has been slowly improving since then. (Contradicting the statement that 2001 was peak ridership)

 

Also, ridership in 2004, after the red line opened, was slightly higher than 2003, contradicting the statement "METRO carried more people in 2003, before the red line, the first segment of rail opened, despite spending nearly $2.6 billion"

 

Sources:

Annual reports - https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/FAAnnualReport.aspx

Monthly ridership reports (2010 - 2019) - https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/RidershipReport.aspx

 

A few notes:

- All the dates are Metro's fiscal year, so fiscal year 2018  would be October 2017 - September 2018

- Monthly ridership was counted using automated boarding counters

-  There were multiple format changes on the ridership reports

- Some of the graphics in the annual reports from the early 2000s are trippy

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august948

august948

Posted
Posted
On 8/20/2019 at 6:18 PM, gmac said:

 

I think you're wrong on this. It reeks of an old wives tale from the white flight days.

 

 

No old wives tale this....that was one of the arguments made against MARTA expansion into Gwinnett county when I lived in Atlanta during the 90's.  They just rejected it again this year.

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gmac

gmac

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22 minutes ago, august948 said:

 

 

No old wives tale this....that was one of the arguments made against MARTA expansion into Gwinnett county when I lived in Atlanta during the 90's.  They just rejected it again this year.

 

What does Atlanta have to do with the statement I referred to?

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