Jump to content

Downtown Dallas Development


Subdude

Recommended Posts

I don't have electronic access so I can't post the article, but the front page story in the WSJ today is about how Dallas is using tax incentives and grants to attract a base of about 10,000 residents to downtown, especially by redeveloping vacant old office buildings and hotels. So far about 2,400 "mostly upscale" apartments have been created, and another 2,040 on on the drawing boards. One company alone is refurbishing nine downtown structures. Acording to the article, downtown is 5,500 residents away from the city's goal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good for them. More cities should do this.

(As an aside, if you have T-mobile hotspot access you get the electronic version of the Wall Street Journal for free. Wish I was at Starbucks right now so I could read the article.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have electronic access so I can't post the article, but the front page story in the WSJ today is about how Dallas is using tax incentives and grants to attract a base of about 10,000 residents to downtown, especially by redeveloping vacant old office buildings and hotels. So far about 2,400 "mostly upscale" apartments have been created, and another 2,040 on on the drawing boards. One company alone is refurbishing nine downtown structures. Acording to the article, downtown is 5,500 residents away from the city's goal.

DANG! isn't that more than Houston's downtown population?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually it says "apartments, lofts, and condominiums", so it's not all rental. In any event, I would settle for more apartments in downtown Houston as opposed to still more parking garages. The article also says that Denver, Atlanta, LA, and others are doing the same thing. I think it can really make sense to invest to get these old vacant buildings back on the tax rolls. Another benefit is that it is a lot cheaper to retrofit an old building into condos or apartments than to build from scratch. I think one reason that new residential high-rises haven't worked in Houston is that the cost of new high-rise construction prices them out of the range of most of the people that might want to live downtown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i don't have the right to post the entire thing, but here is the first part...

DALLAS -- Seventeen-month-old Beau Aveton may hold a little piece of the fate of downtown Dallas in his tiny hands.

Beset with one of the nation's most forlorn downtowns, Dallas is seeking salvation in a radical cure: a plan to convert most of the glass-and-steel business district into an upscale residential neighborhood. With his shock of brown hair, Beau is one of downtown's pioneering first babies -- the occupant, along with his parents, Noel and Zane Aveton, of the district's sole single-family home. The Avetons and others like them may be downtown Dallas's last great hope.

Lots of cities are trying to piggyback on the nation's new taste for condominiums and urban living. Atlanta, Denver, Los Angeles and others have encouraged developers to recycle old downtown buildings into chic residences while continuing to promote themselves as prime office locations. These areas mainly draw childless couples, couples with grown children, gays and wealthy, single professionals. But no city comes close to Dallas in residential zeal. Dallas, a city of 1.2 million, has given out some $160 million in grants and tax abatements with the goal of creating a residential haven for those seeking to escape the hundreds of square miles of sprawl that surround it.

The city's goal is to attract a critical mass of 10,000 downtown residences, which its consultants say will be sufficient to reel in a stable, tax-paying base of neighborhood boutiques and restaurants, ultimately launching a self-propelling economy. The plans don't call for swallowing up downtown's best office towers. But planners hope these buildings, which are still largely filled with office workers, will become islands in a sea of lofts, condominiums, apartments and shops.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DANG! isn't that more than Houston's downtown population?

It is about the same. They both predict about 10,000 residents within 5 to 10 years, as well.

That first part of the article, along with others that have been posted previously, suggest that Dallas is trying to shrink its CBD. By shrinking the business side of things and converting the buildings to residential, it makes the downtown appear fuller, similar to the airlines grounding planes in order to fill up the ones still in the air.

It is an interesting approach. Does it suggest that Dallas leaders have given up on downtown as a place for business? Or, is the theory more that by converting office space to residential, the resulting office squeeze drives up rents, making it more profitable to build new buildings?

I'd love to see some articles that address this issue. And, not to gloat at Dallas' expense, but it makes me feel better about Houston's downtown situation, that there are few, if any office buildings empty enough to convert to residential. Now, old hotels, however......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Poor little kid is going to be a FREAK. But as long as the parents are happy, who cares about the kid?

Seriously, this a way too socialistic for capitalist Houston.

What? :blink: I'll bet the folks in Dallas would be surprised to read that! :lol: It's no different than our TIRZs, or the tax break Houston gave to develop downtown hotels, or the billion we spent for new stadiums.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man, I wish Houston would do something like that.

Don't be ridiculous. Houston is doing "something like that." Houston as a TIF district, it has tax incentives for condominiums, it has incentives for retail development. The article says that about 2,400 apartments have been created. Houston has over 3,000. Apparently, downtown Dallas now has a population of about 4,500. I believe downtown Houston's estimated population is very nearly identical to that. Dallas has a goal of 10,000 residents (I don't believe the time-frame is mentioned). Houston has a goal of 20,000 (by 2025). Elsewhere I've seen projections of 10,000 in downtown Houston in 2010.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, this from Central Houston

Currently there are 2,963 housing units in downtown accommodating an estimated 3,000 people. By 2010 there will be an estimated 10,000 people living in downtown

Link to downtown residential table

Of course, the totals include the YMCA, DeGeorge SRO, and New Hope Housing, which probably aren't exactly the kind of residential development we would like to see. Adjusting for these leaves about 2,600 people, and 2,600 residential units. The total should be adjusted up a little to reflect the offering of some of the rooms at the Club Quarters hotel for residential. The site doesn't specify where the additional 7,400 residents expected downtown by 2010 will be living.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, this from Central Houston

Link to downtown residential table

Of course, the totals include the YMCA, DeGeorge SRO, and New Hope Housing, which probably aren't exactly the kind of residential development we would like to see. Adjusting for these leaves about 2,600 people, and 2,600 residential units. The total should be adjusted up a little to reflect the offering of some of the rooms at the Club Quarters hotel for residential. The site doesn't specify where the additional 7,400 residents expected downtown by 2010 will be living.

I don't know why you would subtract certain residents. Residential is residential, isn't it? Part of the urban fabric. ;) I also suspect that Dallas' estimate of 4500 residents in 2400 units is WAY high. All over the country, apartment, condo and loft units have an occupancy of 1.4 to 1.6 per unit, when full. This is due to the fact that half are occupied by singles and half by couples, with virtually no families. The Dallas figure suggests an occupancy level of almost 2. If there are vacancies, and I am sure there are, the occupancy would be over 2.

With that said, it is encouraging that Dallas is trying to reclaim a downtown decimated by the telecom bust. And, yes, Houston does offer numerous incentives to build in downtown also. You have to, to keep downtowns from dying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know why you would subtract certain residents. Residential is residential, isn't it? Part of the urban fabric.

We should add all the prisoners in the jails then! :lol:

Seriously, thanks for the average unit occupancy numbers. Interesting. Does anyone have details on the incentives for residential in downtown Houston? I know that they were going to start some subsidies for retail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did they include the park in front of The Toyota center ? Lots of residents there. ;) I think maybe we should help Dallas with their residency problem for downtown, start bussing our bums to Dallas, call it "Deadbeats to Dallas" or something. <_<:blink::D:P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you are getting Dallas confused with Richardson.

WorldCom, Nortel, yada yada yada were all in Richardson.

True, but it sent the entire office market into a funk that they are still trying to recover from.

Incidentally, my brother-in-law was in town with my sister for Thanksgiving. The subject of Richardson's freefall came up and he said the office market there is still in shambles, 10 years later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think one reason that new residential high-rises haven't worked in Houston is that the cost of new high-rise construction prices them out of the range of most of the people that might want to live downtown.

If the high-rises end up being too expensive, why hasn't anyone been building something more affordable, like, I don't know, mid-rises? Have we seen ANY new residential in Downtown in the last few years? Not even our historic fleabag hotels are going loft these days.

Enhancement of the living quality in DT is one way that city spending can attract residential, such as the new parks, without subsidies. I do think we need to have a little sense of urgency though so maybe we need to add some incentives before the old hotels get knocked down for more parking and we're left with a newer version of the same ol' same ol'.

The entire freeway system of loop and spoke is obsolete if DT and surrounds are not vital and dense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Subdude, the link you posted is from 2004. The new one is located here.

http://www.houstondowntown.com/ImagesFiles...pment%20Map.PDF

Interesting, that it includes the Ballpark lofts, but not the lofts across Texas Ave. on Bastrop. They also don't include the Alexan Lofts and surrounding townhomes on Runnels. There are a couple of hundred units there.

Midtown's 7,500 residents are not included either, for obvious reasons, but they are there, butting up to downtown, along with a several hundred in Chinatown, for a total close-in population of 12,000 or more.

I know this went a bit off-topic, but it does show that both downtowns are growing residential populations. And in Houston's case, at least, I think the land surrounding DT is cheaper than in DT, so more construction is occurring on the fringes than inside DT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

more construction is occurring on the fringes than inside DT

Which is why I have always wondered why people think we have to cram everyone downtown.

You can live 2-3 miles from downtown and have much more to make your life easier, vs. the self-imposed hardship that is living in the core.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which is why I have always wondered why people think we have to cram everyone downtown.

You can live 2-3 miles from downtown and have much more to make your life easier, vs. the self-imposed hardship that is living in the core.

Because New York and Chicago have it, so we must have it. Frankly, if there are 20,000 people in Midtown, 20,000 in Chinatown, and 20,000 in Near Northside, does anyone think that Downtown would not be crawling with partiers every night? People would still ride the rail half a mile, or take a $3 cab to Downtown, if that's where the action is. The housing stock does not HAVE to be in Downtown for it to be successful. Right next to it is close enough.

As an example, New York's Downtown is considered to be the Wall Street district. Only 2,500 people live there. TriBeca, SoHo and all the others are very closeby, but not Downtown, similar to Chinatown and Midtown, and Dallas' Uptown and Victory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As most of you know Dallas has had a problem of lots of old outdated building stock. Office vacancy has run about 25-30% As a result they have lots of old class C space perfect for residential. All the following are old core downtown buildings taken off the office rolls or under const.

Completed

DP&L Building has 158 units

Davis Bldg has 183 units

Kirby Bldg has 156 units

Interurban Bldg has 134 units

Under Const.

(new) 1407 Main will have 90 units

Gulf States Building will have 68 units

Fidelity Union Complex Buildings will have 432 units

Metropolitan will have 273 units

Mercantile will have 365 units

Republic Bank Tower units-???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because New York and Chicago have it, so we must have it. Frankly, if there are 20,000 people in Midtown, 20,000 in Chinatown, and 20,000 in Near Northside, does anyone think that Downtown would not be crawling with partiers every night? People would still ride the rail half a mile, or take a $3 cab to Downtown, if that's where the action is. The housing stock does not HAVE to be in Downtown for it to be successful. Right next to it is close enough.

As an example, New York's Downtown is considered to be the Wall Street district. Only 2,500 people live there. TriBeca, SoHo and all the others are very closeby, but not Downtown, similar to Chinatown and Midtown, and Dallas' Uptown and Victory.

Partly true. It is a valid concern that any downtown have more than office buildings and have a balanced residential and retail base. The article indicates that one reason that Dallas is doing this is to reduce the number of vacant buildings and surface lots, even though there is new residential development nearby at Victory. Because of this I would bet that the idea is not just to draw in residents for the sake of having residents, but to increase the taxable value of the land and buildings downtown. That argues against the comparison with the NYC financial district. Although it is indeed dead at night, there isn't a lot of unused property.

Another reason is that even as Midtown etc develop, it may not be a viable strategy to rely on residents in adjacent neighborhoods to help downtown. Bars and nightclubs are fine, but they are a poor base for long-term revitalization of neighborhoods such as downtown. Popular clubbing areas tend to move around the city (ask the folks on Richmond strip and Shepherd). If and when downtown loses popularity as a nightclub destination, there won't be much reason for people in Midtown etc. to go there. Having some sustainable base of residents in downtown seems like it is just a way of hedging economic bets to keep the neighborhood viable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

neighborhoods such as downtown

The idea that downtown is, or should be, a "neighborhood" is debatable. They don't call it the CBD for nothing.

I'd prefer to see more businesses in downtown, vs. redidental.

I know, I know, living downtown is neat, especially if you use NY or London for your barometer. But even then, not many people live on The Strand or Leiscter Square.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True, but it sent the entire office market into a funk that they are still trying to recover from.

Incidentally, my brother-in-law was in town with my sister for Thanksgiving. The subject of Richardson's freefall came up and he said the office market there is still in shambles, 10 years later.

Downtown Dallas' office market was in a funk long before the telecom industry implosion. Its problems stem from the oil & gas and Savings & Loan implosions of the mid-80s. The downtown office market has never recovered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...