Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[TheNiche]

How are you gonna blow your cover on an internet forum anyway where no one knows you or your name.

...because some people can figure out your name from the contextual clues that you give them and the timing of your leaks. That's the same reason that the military and intelligence agencies are so careful about declassifying information gained from operatives in the field.

I wouldn't really care if you figured it out, because I don't do business with you. I'm more concerned with lurkers on this forum with whom I do business. After all, I can't pass along information...even vague information...if I'm not trusted to it in the first place.

[HtownWxBoy]

All i have to say is, i actually voted for Dallas Victory when this thread was first created but i wish i could go back and recast my vote to HP. I only really voted for Dallas Victory because it was a larger development and it looked cooler with the video screens and all. If you think about it, Houston Pavilions is only one key element to the east-end downtown renaissance. If you include all the east end development, i think its equal to Victory. Plus, i think the Houston Pavilions will bring in the masses more because it won't just be limited to catering to the rich. It also seems like it will have waayy more entertainment than DV such as: The Movie Theatre, Bowling Alley, HOB, and its connectivity to Main Street Square and Discovery Green.

My thoughts exactly! All of this coming to Houston's DOWNTOWN!

[Houston19514]

Yeah, well that was pretty much my intention. If I told you anything more than what is public record, my cover would be blown.

But you haven't even told us what was on the public record. Did this company you speak of acquire these properties recently or not? Simple question. On the public record. If you actually have the slightest clue of what you are reporting about, you would know the answer.

With respect, you are looking increasingly like a fraud.

[Dallasboi]

Houston pavillions will be a nice development.

[C2H]

I wouldn't really care if you figured it out, because I don't do business with you. I'm more concerned with lurkers on this forum with whom I do business.

Then if that's the case, PM me some of the info.

Houston pavillions will be a nice development.

You just changed my negative opinion of most dallasites on this forum with this comment.

[TheNiche]

But you haven't even told us what was on the public record. Did this company you speak of acquire these properties recently or not? Simple question. On the public record. If you actually have the slightest clue of what you are reporting about, you would know the answer.

With respect, you are looking increasingly like a fraud.

I already told you in Post #596 that I knew very little except for those few details that were conveyed to me. I did not inquire as to their land acquisition strategy. I also have very little reason to go and research the transaction history of each parcel that they own, except to validate myself to you...and with respect, you aren't worth that effort.

Btw, why do you feel the compulsion to bully insiders? I'm just wondering, seeing as how you chased off Houston-development and seem to have turned your sights on me. Honestly, what do you hope to accomplish? What do you have to gain?

[Houston19514]

I already told you in Post #596 that I knew very little except for those few details that were conveyed to me. I did not inquire as to their land acquisition strategy. I also have very little reason to go and research the transaction history of each parcel that they own, except to validate myself to you...and with respect, you aren't worth that effort.

Btw, why do you feel the compulsion to bully insiders? I'm just wondering, seeing as how you chased off Houston-development and seem to have turned your sights on me. Honestly, what do you hope to accomplish? What do you have to gain?

ROFLMAO

I asked a very simple question which you have still refused to even attempt to answer. If all you know is that some company has acquired a bunch of land around Toyota Center, then your initial post truly amounted to nothing, and only showed how little you truly know, since you apparently were unaware that one company has owned most of the subject land for a very long time. Did your super secret inside informant not even hint at whether these purchases were recent? If they weren't recent, your "inside" information could not be more worthless (or less "inside" as it has been published in the Chronicle; yes, even the clueless folks at the Chronicle know about it).

(and by the way, it was quite clear that I did not expect you to go search the public records. I only mentioned the public records because you should be free to convey any supposedly inside information that is public record.)

One more thing: You seem to be rather full of yourself to think I have "turned my sights on you" in order to try to chase you off. With respect, you aren't worth the effort. ;-)

[TheNiche]

Dammit. I typed out a very poignant response earlier this afternoon, but it didn't post. 2nd try:

If all you know is that some company has acquired a bunch of land around Toyota Center, then your initial post truly amounted to nothing, and only showed how little you truly know, since you apparently were unaware that one company has owned most of the subject land for a very long time.

To be perfectly clear, my vague understanding of the transaction history is not in any way shape or form relevant to the information that I have and that you do not.

My initial post amounts only to an attempt to signal people on this forum as to the level of activity and interest in the downtown area. Believe me, if I were going to leak something of significance to the public, it would be through Ms. Sarnoff.

One more thing: You seem to be rather full of yourself to think I have "turned my sights on you" in order to try to chase you off. With respect, you aren't worth the effort. ;-)

Well it hasn't kept you from needlessly drawing out this matter. Frankly, had you been more respectful and just PMed me for the information, I probably would've given you what I know straight-up. Hell, if you're in the industry, as I suspect, I might've been inclined to meet up with you at some point or another. I am no longer so inclined.

[RedScare]

My initial post amounts only to an attempt to signal people on this forum as to the level of activity and interest in the downtown area. Believe me, if I were going to leak something of significance to the public, it would be through Ms. Sarnoff.

Posting vague and unsupported statements inevitably opens one to criticism. Frankly, given that you have never posted anything specific on any development, it is understandable that another poster called you on the carpet. You tried to compare yourself to Houston-Development. When H-D has info that he can post without revealing sensitive info, he does so. When he cannot, he keeps his mouth shut. You do not. You never give good info, while often suggesting you know something, giving the appearance of trying to sound important when you really know little.

While most of us ignore the posts, Houston19514 decided to call you on it. If you insist on calling yourself an "insider" while revealing nothing, you subject yourself to inevetible ridicule. You reap what you sow. If you had couched this non-information as your "opinion" as opposed to "insider" info that cannot be revealed, nothing would have come of it. Your insistence on sounding self-important will get a negative response every time. Sucks, but that's the way these forums are.

[tierwestah]

Posting vague and unsupported statements inevitably opens one to criticism. Frankly, given that you have never posted anything specific on any development, it is understandable that another poster called you on the carpet. You tried to compare yourself to Houston-Development. When H-D has info that he can post without revealing sensitive info, he does so. When he cannot, he keeps his mouth shut. You do not. You never give good info, while often suggesting you know something, giving the appearance of trying to sound important when you really know little.

While most of us ignore the posts, Houston19514 decided to call you on it. If you insist on calling yourself an "insider" while revealing nothing, you subject yourself to inevetible ridicule. You reap what you sow. If you had couched this non-information as your "opinion" as opposed to "insider" info that cannot be revealed, nothing would have come of it. Your insistence on sounding self-important will get a negative response every time. Sucks, but that's the way these forums are.

i agree with Red and 19514, if you can't give details, then its better to post nothing at all.

I'm glad that the downtown areas of Texas's two largest cities are getting these boosts, even though Victory is technically not IN downtown. But to everyday visitors, they'll probably classify the two areas as one in the same. So we can't argue with what 1 million plus visitors per year will be saying.

[TheNiche]

Posting vague and unsupported statements inevitably opens one to criticism. Frankly, given that you have never posted anything specific on any development, it is understandable that another poster called you on the carpet. You tried to compare yourself to Houston-Development. When H-D has info that he can post without revealing sensitive info, he does so. When he cannot, he keeps his mouth shut. You do not. You never give good info, while often suggesting you know something, giving the appearance of trying to sound important when you really know little.

While most of us ignore the posts, Houston19514 decided to call you on it. If you insist on calling yourself an "insider" while revealing nothing, you subject yourself to inevetible ridicule. You reap what you sow. If you had couched this non-information as your "opinion" as opposed to "insider" info that cannot be revealed, nothing would have come of it. Your insistence on sounding self-important will get a negative response every time. Sucks, but that's the way these forums are.

Yeah, it is understandable that people would have doubt about what I'm saying. I know that if I were a third-party observer, that would be my response. On the other hand, if the only thing that I know is that someone has vaguely indicated that something significant may be in the pipe, that's enough to catch my attention too. I wouldn't consider such a statement to be worthless...and I might just PM them for more info.

I wouldn't have put this out there as my opinion, because then nobody would take it seriously, if only because it wasn't presented seriously.

H-D and I are in different lines of work within the industry, and you shouldn't expect such explicit project-level details from me unless I'm directly involved with it...and even then, what I contribute is much more likely to change. Doesn't make the information any less valuable, though. It is just of a different sort.

[TexasStar]

^ Glad that's all cleared up.

[Houston19514]

Yeah, it is understandable that people would have doubt about what I'm saying. I know that if I were a third-party observer, that would be my response. On the other hand, if the only thing that I know is that someone has vaguely indicated that something significant may be in the pipe, that's enough to catch my attention too. I wouldn't consider such a statement to be worthless...and I might just PM them for more info.

I wouldn't have put this out there as my opinion, because then nobody would take it seriously, if only because it wasn't presented seriously.

H-D and I are in different lines of work within the industry, and you shouldn't expect such explicit project-level details from me unless I'm directly involved with it...and even then, what I contribute is much more likely to change. Doesn't make the information any less valuable, though. It is just of a different sort.

Enough with the posturing... You know very well that NOBODY asked for "explicit project-level details." I, for example, merely asked for a little clarification so we knew if you were talking about recent transactions or something that occurred nearly 20 years ago. Your inability/refusal to provide that tiny clarification is telling.

[TheNiche]

Your inability/refusal to provide that tiny clarification is telling.

My inability to provide you with irrelevant information is meaningless.

[Houston19514]

My inability to provide you with irrelevant information is meaningless.

You are too much fun. Let me make sure I am understanding you correctly. You have told us that your "initial post amounts only to an attempt to signal people on this forum as to the level of activity and interest in the downtown area" and you are also telling us that whether these land acquisitions were made 20 years ago or within the last year is irrelevant. So, in your mind, an acquisition of land 20 years ago would somehow indicate a current "level of activity and interest in the downtown area"??? ROFL

Clearly, the acquisition of land 20 years ago tells us precisely nothing about the current level of activity and interest. Hence my initial inquiry, which remains unanswered.

Now, can we get back to hearing stories from our Dallas friends about how to construct a 43-story building without disturbing the dirt beneath the building? ;-)

[TheNiche]

Clearly, the acquisition of land 20 years ago tells us precisely nothing about the current level of activity and interest. Hence my initial inquiry, which remains unanswered.

If land were acquired 20 years ago and nothing has happened thus far, why would anybody choose to believe that a recent land acquisition should be any different? Land sales ≠ development.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about, and you won't know what you're talking about until something of significance actually happens because I'm not going to tell you. All I want for you and others to know, as I stated long ago, is that they're awake, and that you can expect great things from east Downtown.

[tamtagon]

All I want for you and others to know, as I stated long ago, is that they're awake, and that you can expect great things from east Downtown.

Okay, so maybe that's a little different from what you stated initially - they're awake - but at least you've indirectly and mostly answered 19514's question. Hrumph.

It's more fun to watch this skillful stalk and pounce between Niche and 19514 than the redundant D v. H tirads.

Anyway, if the land around Houston's big downtown stadiums turn into something for people to do rather than car parking, then we're cooking with gas! The Houston Pavillions is going to be a good thing, but it's not so big in realtion to what's already in downtown to have a significant impact on the whole area. Only a development as massive as Victory Park has the umph to redefine the boundaries of Downtown Dallas across the highway. Similarly, only a massive mixed use development surrounding the stadiums on the edges of Houston's downtown will have the umph to significantly expand the perception of Downtown Houston.

[Dallasboi]

Okay, so maybe that's a little different from what you stated initially - they're awake - but at least you've indirectly and mostly answered 19514's question. Hrumph.

It's more fun to watch this skillful stalk and pounce between Niche and 19514 than the redundant D v. H tirads.

Anyway, if the land around Houston's big downtown stadiums turn into something for people to do rather than car parking, then we're cooking with gas! The Houston Pavillions is going to be a good thing, but it's not so big in realtion to what's already in downtown to have a significant impact on the whole area. Only a development as massive as Victory Park has the umph to redefine the boundaries of Downtown Dallas across the highway. Similarly, only a massive mixed use development surrounding the stadiums on the edges of Houston's downtown will have the umph to significantly expand the perception of Downtown Houston.

And in fact...People seem to forget that when Victory is ultimately built out(around 2010) it will then be cosidered Downtown.

[RedScare]

And in fact...People seem to forget that when Victory is ultimately built out(around 2010) it will then be cosidered Downtown.

Well, you and several on this forum think so, but I have never read that real estate brokers or developers do. In fact, Victory is lumped with Uptown as a distinct subdivision apart from the CBD. I believe that when Victory is built out it will be so different than downtown that it will have its own distinct identity, separate from downtown, just as Midtown Houston is considered seaparate from downtown Houston, even though they but up against each other.

[NDtexan]

Well, you and several on this forum think so, but I have never read that real estate brokers or developers do. In fact, Victory is lumped with Uptown as a distinct subdivision apart from the CBD. I believe that when Victory is built out it will be so different than downtown that it will have its own distinct identity, separate from downtown, just as Midtown Houston is considered seaparate from downtown Houston, even though they but up against each other.

I think the biggest factor of whether or not Victory might be classified as downtown at some point within the next 10 years is the redevelopment of the West End. If the West End can be lulled out its slumber (perhaps as a spillover effect from Victory) then there would truly be a connection between Victory and the core of the CBD. That along with a creative plan to address the WR underpass would really bring the two together, but who knows if that'll happen.

If that doesn't happen, reconstructing WR as a tunnel will get the job done too. ha.

[C2H]

It's more fun to watch this skillful stalk and pounce between Niche and 19514 than the redundant D v. H tirads.

It IS funny to read. One thing for sure about Houston19514, he doesn't discriminate. Whether we're talking about Dallas or Houston, you'd better come with the facts or he'll call you on it.

So dallasites, take this as an example that when the forumers ask for facts, that doesn't just apply to when talking about Dallas. Many of the dallasites try to make it seem like Dallas is being singled out, and that's not the case.

[Dallasboi]

It IS funny to read. One thing for sure about Houston19514, he doesn't discriminate. Whether we're talking about Dallas or Houston, you'd better come with the facts or he'll call you on it.

So dallasites, take this as an example that when the forumers ask for facts, that doesn't just apply to when talking about Dallas. Many of the dallasites try to make it seem like Dallas is being singled out, and that's not the case.

That's just 1 example.If it happened more often then one could believe what you stated.

[Dallasboi]

Well, you and several on this forum think so, but I have never read that real estate brokers or developers do. In fact, Victory is lumped with Uptown as a distinct subdivision apart from the CBD. I believe that when Victory is built out it will be so different than downtown that it will have its own distinct identity, separate from downtown, just as Midtown Houston is considered seaparate from downtown Houston, even though they but up against each other.

They will all tie in together.And ...with all of the other towers that are going up around victory coming online soon(office & residential) ,it will definatley blend the two (uptown&Downtown).

[RedScare]

They will all tie in together.

Not according to fellow poster Dallascaper...

I was at a Mavs game about a month ago, and walking along the east side of the W, I was struck by how barren its street-level presence is, at least on the east. Victory is going to be great, but the street-level excitement it brings is very inward-looking; it all faces streets or plazas that are part of Victory, not regular Dallas boulevards. Having exciting developments the scope of Victory, but along major boulevards, like Times Square or the LV Strip, would be welcome.

But, to each his own. If you want to believe that they will all tie in together, you are entitled to that opinion. Frankly, I think Hillwood doesn't want to tie in with anything. I think they want Victory to stand alone as THE ONLY place to go. I don't think they want any competition from Uptown or Downtown.

My opinion.

[Dallasboi]

Not according to fellow poster Dallascaper...

But, to each his own. If you want to believe that they will all tie in together, you are entitled to that opinion. Frankly, I think Hillwood doesn't want to tie in with anything. I think they want Victory to stand alone as THE ONLY place to go. I don't think they want any competition from Uptown or Downtown.

My opinion.

What I meant was.....It will all be one continuous urban Fabric.

[troyboy]

I think they want Victory to stand alone as THE ONLY place to go. I don't think they want any competition from Uptown or Downtown.

My opinion.

With the retail and restaurant mix, it's obivious to me, that's not thier intention. I think Victory is just meant to be another (if not the most glamourous) urban Dallas neighborhood. I do agree that it probably is built to somewhat stand alone, but blending into Uptown and Downtown is inevitable.

[houstonfella]

How do you guys get that dust off your property???? >

[rantanamo]

If they don't want to integrate with the rest of the city, someone had better tell them to stop The House and House of Blues and scrap those museum plans.

[HtownWxBoy]

Anyway, if the land around Houston's big downtown stadiums turn into something for people to do rather than car parking, then we're cooking with gas! The Houston Pavillions is going to be a good thing, but it's not so big in realtion to what's already in downtown to have a significant impact on the whole area. Only a development as massive as Victory Park has the umph to redefine the boundaries of Downtown Dallas across the highway. Similarly, only a massive mixed use development surrounding the stadiums on the edges of Houston's downtown will have the umph to significantly expand the perception of Downtown Houston.

First, the parking lots around Downtown Houston's Stadiums are slowly being developed.... some are being turned into HP while others are being turned into the new Downtown Park (it took away 2 small lots next to the old park). Other parking lots, I am sure, are soon to follow in getting developed. Houston Pavilions, though not so big by itself, is in fact going to have a big affect on Downtown Houston. Retail outlets have already signed leases for space next to Pavilions b/c they know about the people HP will bring to Downtown. The first residential highrise (with street-level retail) in like 30 or 40 years is beginning to go up next to HP at the same time as a new Downtown Park is being built. This will most likely bring more people to live Downtown, which will bring more stores/restaurants/bars, etc.... this will bring more people... and so on and so forth. This is all occuring in the middle of Downtown Houston, in and around the Financial District, all within SHORT walking distance to other Downtown destinations like our Stadiums.

I said it before... Victory is a much bigger project (and a very nice project!)... but I believe HP will do more to make Downtown Houston the type of "urban" environment many of us would like to work in, shop in, walk in, live in, etc.

[largeTEXAS]

I said it before... Victory is a much bigger project (and a very nice project!)... but I believe HP will do more to make Downtown Houston the type of "urban" environment many of us would like to work in, shop in, walk in, live in, etc.

I agree, but I think downtown has to take advantage of the next two years while the Pavilions is under construction to attract some residential projects. If we can get that going hopefully there will be more people patronizing the Pavilions than just tourists.