TexasStar Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I agree. My own experience so far sampling Victory retail is that it's WAY UPSCALE in price.Which puts me solidly in the "gawker" category. I'll stroll by on my way to and from Mavs and Stars games and wonder aloud what people do for a living to afford those places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I agree. My own experience so far sampling Victory retail is that it's WAY UPSCALE in price.Which puts me solidly in the "gawker" category. I'll stroll by on my way to and from Mavs and Stars games and wonder aloud what people do for a living to afford those places. Well.....all I'm trying to point out is I don't make alot of money(I work in a Mailroom)and I 've shoped at G-Star and I've shoped at Quicksilver,and when th W opened I got a room there.So....... while I won't say I can afford everything that victory has or will have to offer,I can say that If decideto shop in victory one day...I know I will be able to. So I really feel like this antic could apply to any development with mixed retail. I feel like theres always a store that people just gawk at....and then they head next door to the store that fits their budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Hizzy! Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Do you think a shift in market forces or rethinking of the market itself could cause an eventual shift in the scope of what Victory will be, Texas Star? In other words, do you think Hillwood would be savvy enough to change its target retail audience if forces suggest that they've over estimated the size of the original market (not quite as many high dollar spenders as thought)?This is just a hypothetical, as I have no clue how successful a high end retail project of this scale will be. I'm just basically asking if you (and any Dallasite for that matter) think that there's room for rebranding if need be. The West End's "evolution" or demise or whatever you want to call it is the catalyst behind my question. Clearly, the WE is at a point where it needs to evolve and so I'm wondering how stringent Hillwood is with regard to its longterm views of Victory.Thanks for the replies in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantanamo Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 There are some clubs and bars in Victory. HOB is calling itself Victory. The Museum of Nature & History will also be a part of Victory and of course the Channel 8 studios and the AAC. Not to mention that retractable roof place in the plaza. Overall, there's no denying that to live in Victory or play with the stores and restaurants you need money. Participating in AAC events, patronizing the plaza, going to the grocery store for a special item, going to night clubs or attending museums does not require wealth. Neither do events like the planned New Years celebration, News specials or just plain walking across the street from the West End. I wouldn't call it "built for the masses", I would say, "built for a mass of the wealthy to live work and play, built for the greater masses to explore and patronize just enough" The greater connectivity Victory provides from the ACC should really help the adjacent West End. The HOB, Museum and House tower are literally across the street. Should be interesting in seeing if the proximity results in the West End becoming more and more residential as everyday amenities go up in Victory that simply haven't existed in the West End.All of the above is mentioned without knowing what else is going in Victory. We only know their "Phase 1" buildings(and the mention of a second office tower already since the first one filled so quickly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasStar Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Do you think a shift in market forces or rethinking of the market itself could cause an eventual shift in the scope of what Victory will be, Texas Star? In other words, do you think Hillwood would be savvy enough to change its target retail audience if forces suggest that they've over estimated the size of the original market (not quite as many high dollar spenders as thought)?This is just a hypothetical, as I have no clue how successful a high end retail project of this scale will be. I'm just basically asking if you (and any Dallasite for that matter) think that there's room for rebranding if need be. The West End's "evolution" or demise or whatever you want to call it is the catalyst behind my question. Clearly, the WE is at a point where it needs to evolve and so I'm wondering how stringent Hillwood is with regard to its longterm views of Victory.Thanks for the replies in advance.I've always been amazed at the amount of wealth in this city, so I wouldn't be one to underestimate Dallas' appetite for the high end.Hillwood has shown themselves quite adept up to this point. If they find they've overestimated the caviar market in the months ahead, I'm sure they would be able to remix their retail offerings accordingly.But, as Rantanamo said, it's still quite early in the game. We should probably just wait and see how the development looks when it gets closer to build out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slfunk Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Well the base of the first crane for the mandarian hotel/office/condo tower has been placed. This is at the northwest corner of the site where the lower portion (about 15 stories) of the tower is located. The red line shows the approximate location for the crane location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Hizzy! Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 So you have the W Hotel on the right, the Mandarin would be on the left, the arena is at the middle left, and Victory Plaza slips in behind the W Hotel heading away from the AAC... correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 From a member named "DFW" on the dallasmetropolis forum:"Yes, I saw the lower part of the crane in place late this afternoon, but don’t be alarmed it's for the construction of the parking garage the south section of the tower which will go up first. Eventually this crane will be used for some of the construction of the tower later this late Summer or early fall."And from a member named "Mephis Gooseberry", responding to the question posed by "NDtexan" on the dallasmetropolis forum:Originally Posted by NDtexan"I'm just curious, but how do you know the garage is being constructed first? And why is it being constructed before the tower instead of during the overall construction?"Response post by Mephis Gooseberry:"Its pretty obvious if you go to the site and look."__________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slfunk Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 From a member named "DFW" on the dallasmetropolis forum:"Yes, I saw the lower part of the crane in place late this afternoon, but don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Ya...and your taking to heart what people are saying who are not in the building industry and don't understand how things are built, they are only speculating. Read what jsoto said, a co-worker of mine, he makes a good point. The have the base one of the first tower cranes. If this were ONLY the garage they preparing for, combined with the amount of room they have, lack of traffic etc., they would be able to build the garage with less expensive moveable cranes. Not until someone comes on from Boka Powell or the developer and says this is only the parking garage that we are building will I believe they are not building the tower.Ya, I saw what jsoto said. In fact, allow me to quote: "Sometimes the garage is constructed first because the architects/owner decide to locate some of the main building's major mechanical/electrical/plumbing systems and equipment in it, which they would like to get connected and up and running well before the main building is finished."All jsoto has done is to give one possible reason that the garage might be under construction while the tower is not... in direct response to NDtexan's question of why the developer would build the garage first, rather than simultaneously.NObody has said that the tower will not be built, or that they are not preparing to build the tower. A point you seem to repeatedly miss. All that people have said (and while they may or may not be in the building industry, they apparently have eyes) is that the tower is not currently under construction.Here's another quote from a Dallasite who presumably has eyes, a poster named Maconahey:"Yeah, plus they still need to dig up most of the land where the tower will go." Sounds to me like a building that is not yet under construction. I know you think that the discussion of whether or not the tower is under construction has gotten worn, but if anything has gotten worn, it is your denial of the increasingly obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slfunk Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 NObody has said that the tower will not be built, or that they are not preparing to build the tower. A point you seem to repeatedly miss. All that people have said (and while they may or may not be in the building industry, they apparently have eyes) is that the tower is not currently under construction.So you're taunting in one post of show me a picture and I will believe has nothing to do with the questioning of if the tower portion is being worked on? A quick browse through the posts, well reveal the doubt of the project, and even the HP project, the only reason I replied in this discussion. I do not question that the garage is the main area of focus that is clear. Also, clear observation this past weekend, the majority of the drilling equipment and work was being done at the northern most edge of the site, where the tower and the garage come together. This may or may not be the only area of the tower that will be below grade, but there is the base for a tower crane installed where the garage and the tower form a V. When they figure out what to do with the temporary valet parking, I am sure we will see full steam ahead on the tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slfunk Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 So you have the W Hotel on the right, the Mandarin would be on the left, the arena is at the middle left, and Victory Plaza slips in behind the W Hotel heading away from the AAC... correct?Yes, I think a follow you. Plaza buildings b/w the W and AAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 So you're taunting in one post of show me a picture and I will believe has nothing to do with the questioning of if the tower portion is being worked on? A quick browse through the posts, well reveal the doubt of the project, and even the HP project, the only reason I replied in this discussion. I do not question that the garage is the main area of focus that is clear. Also, clear observation this past weekend, the majority of the drilling equipment and work was being done at the northern most edge of the site, where the tower and the garage come together. This may or may not be the only area of the tower that will be below grade, but there is the base for a tower crane installed where the garage and the tower form a V. When they figure out what to do with the temporary valet parking, I am sure we will see full steam ahead on the tower.???? Ya, my "taunting" post of show me a picture was all about questioning whether the tower portion is being worked on. That is all I have been questioning. I have not been questioning whether the tower will be built. (Maybe you should go back and read my previous post again. It could not have been much clearer.)As I said earlier, the best information I have found indicates construction will begin this fall. (But you may need to prepare yourself for some slippage on that schedule.) Let me remind you, this discussion started when I asked whether in fact the tower portion was under construction. Several posters said it was and posted the pictures showing the parking structure end of the site. You then came in and stated rather emphatically that the tower structure was indeed under construction, assuring us that you had seen them installing piers on the entire site... A statement that has since been contradicted by yourself and others who have seen the site. Color me skeptical that an inability to figure out what to do with the W's valet parking is what is holding up the tower construction. I have faith that Hillwood has things planned out a little better than that. If that is truly the case, I'm guessing the parking structure will be complete before they start work on the tower. Something tells me it's more about getting some pre-sales in the condominiums and getting some office leases ready for signing.(And by the way, a quick look at the renderings shows that the northern most edge of the site is not where the tower and garage will come together. The northern most edge of the site is where the tower is located, next to Olive Street... I guess you meant to say the northern most edge of the current construction site... thus, at long last impliedly admitting to what I have been saying all along... to-wit: the tower is not currently under construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantanamo Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 ok man we get your point. If one wants to say the Victory Tower is under construction, I can see their point. If one wants to say only the garage is under construction I see your point. The garage is part of the finished product. It could be part of the utility construction. It could be a delay due to leasing. It could be anything. It could be a future announcement that the Mandarin Oriental Hotel has broken the lease agreement. I rdon't know. Don't feel like arguing the semantics. The garage is part of the building. The site is underconstruction. Something is happening. That's all I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 ok man we get your point. If one wants to say the Victory Tower is under construction, I can see their point. If one wants to say only the garage is under construction I see your point. The garage is part of the finished product. It could be part of the utility construction. It could be a delay due to leasing. It could be anything. It could be a future announcement that the Mandarin Oriental Hotel has broken the lease agreement. I rdon't know. Don't feel like arguing the semantics. The garage is part of the building. The site is underconstruction. Something is happening. That's all I know. exactly....And that's what dosent sit right with the nay sayers........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasStar Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Please, please don't take this picture of a new tower crane going up at the Mandarin Oriental/Victory Tower site as meaning anyone in Dallas believes construction on the 45-story tower has actually started. Who knows what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 There is a company that has bought up a lot of land on many different blocks around the Toyota Center area. ...enough that my previous opinion that Victory is better than East Downtown is wavering. We may yet surpass the magnificence of Victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 There is a company that has bought up a lot of land on many different blocks around the Toyota Center area. ...enough that my previous opinion that Victory is better than East Downtown is wavering. We may yet surpass the magnificence of Victory. Are these recent transactions you speak of? Much of the land around/near Toyota Center has been owned for quite some time by a company that has not previously been interested in selling to ANYone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Please, please don't take this picture of a new tower crane going up at the Mandarin Oriental/Victory Tower site as meaning anyone in Dallas believes construction on the 45-story tower has actually started.Who knows what it means. Is that actually where the Victory Tower site is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasStar Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Is that actually where the Victory Tower site is? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Please, please don't take this picture of a new tower crane going up at the Mandarin Oriental/Victory Tower site as meaning anyone in Dallas believes construction on the 45-story tower has actually started.Who knows what it means. TexasStar is being a little, oh, shall we say... disingenuous??? We have previously discussed the installation of the crane...and how it will apparently be used for the construction of the very large parking garage currently under construction adjacent to the tower structure, and presumably will stay in place for the construction of the tower, which will, we are told, begin sometime this fall. Just to complete the record, here is what TexasStar posted on the DFW forum along with the pic of the tower crane: "Just wondering, when they finally actually start construction on this tower, how will we be able to tell?I mean, if digging a giant hole and putting up a tower crane doesn't mean anything." And here is the response to his question from one of his Dallas confreres who apparently is a little more realistic: Mephis Gooseberry: "Try posting a pic of whats behind the fence where the tower is supposed to stand, then you will know the frickin answer. If you look behind the fence, you will see a parking lot with cars parked and other stuff, no digging, no site prep. All of the construction work is happening where the parking garage is planned. The arguing about whats coming out of the ground, when its so frickin obvious what is being built is just......" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 That is a nice looking tower, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 That is a nice looking tower, though.Sure is. At least in the renderings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Are these recent transactions you speak of? Much of the land around/near Toyota Center has been owned for quite some time by a company that has not previously been interested in selling to ANYone. Might be them. They're awake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Might be them.They're awake. Meaning what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Meaning what?Meaning that I know very little about the matter except for a very few pertinent facts that would blow my cover, if revealed, and I don't want to say anything more than vague innuendo such that it gets peoples' hopes up in a very general way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HtownWxBoy Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 I am still more excited for the Houston Pavilions project b/c of if being right Downtown. Possible tentans coming to DOWNTOWN Houston by late 2008... HOUSE OF BLUES UNITED ARTIST 20-30 SCREENS LUCKY STRIKE COYOTE UGLY HARD ROCK CAFE (already Downtown, just moving locations) YAO'S MAGGIANO'S LITTLE ITALY CORNER BAKERY MCCORMICK & SCHMICKS LAWRY'S PRIME RIB VIRGIN MEGA STORE BARNES AND NOBLE BANNANA REPUBLIC GAP/BABY GAP ANN TAYLOR EXPRESS VICTORIA'S SECRET NIKETOWN FOREVER 21 BRIGHTON COLLECTABLES BCBG Plus, American Apparel should be opening up their new store on Main Street right next to the Pavilions sometime in the next few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Meaning that I know very little about the matter except for a very few pertinent facts that would blow my cover, if revealed, and I don't want to say anything more than vague innuendo such that it gets peoples' hopes up in a very general way.Well, so far you have told us precisely nothing. Let me try again (and revealing this information should not blow anyone's so-called "cover" as it would all be public record):This company that you say "has bought up a lot of land on many different blocks around the Toyota Center area"... did this company buy up this land recently (meaning within the last five years)? If not, it means absolutely nothing, because, as I said, a company has owned most of the land near Toyota Center since long before Toyota Center was ever thought of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2H Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 All i have to say is, i actually voted for Dallas Victory when this thread was first created but i wish i could go back and recast my vote to HP. I only really voted for Dallas Victory because it was a larger development and it looked cooler with the video screens and all. If you think about it, Houston Pavilions is only one key element to the east-end downtown renaissance. If you include all the east end development, i think its equal to Victory. Plus, i think the Houston Pavilions will bring in the masses more because it won't just be limited to catering to the rich. It also seems like it will have waayy more entertainment than DV such as: The Movie Theatre, Bowling Alley, HOB, and its connectivity to Main Street Square and Discovery Green.And Houston19514, i wouldn't take heap to what TheNiche is saying. He provides no basis or any clue as to where he gets this information, so i view it to be useless. It appears TheNiche is just having fun with us, once he gives us a little more info, maybe i'll change my mind. How are you gonna blow your cover on an internet forum anyway where no one knows you or your name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Well, so far you have told us precisely nothing. Let me try again (and revealing this information should not blow anyone's so-called "cover" as it would all be public record):Yeah, well that was pretty much my intention. If I told you anything more than what is public record, my cover would be blown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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