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Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East dt development


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Dallas Victory Project VS Houston Pavilions  

117 members have voted

  1. 1. which will be hotter

    • Dallas Victory
      60
    • Houston Pavilions
      57


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:lol: You said it was the first image you saw when you typed that into search. I don't see it, but you were joking so forget about it.

Yes, I was joking - the post was not meant to be taken literally. I manage engineers all day, so I should know better. :) I googled "Wicked Witch of the West" and added the caption myself.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Not according to the article on the evenet.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ty.2ade2b1.html

The hockey fans came out of the arena at 10 and saved the day...or night. But, hey, a few thousand hockey fans is better than the Houston event, right?

I am the one who took those photos and I wonder if the person who wrote the article wasn't even there. The crowd didn't come from the hockey game. The hockey game fans were stuck in their cars on Houston street and the other side streets. The crowd came from downtown, as it was a solid flow sometimes 10 or 20 wide walking through the area between the west end and victory. Also, the House of Blue crowd joined that crowd walking through, but was a small part of the flow.

Jason

P.S. I forgot to mention a significant part of the downtown crowd walking over was the Missouri and Arkansas fans there for the Cottonbowl the next day, who were staying in the downtown hotels and seemed to selectively take over entire restaurants with their fight songs. Crazy bunch, and easy to spot with their school colors.

Edited by JasonDFW
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This event looked great from where I saw it (on TV), especially considering it seemed to be put together late. It was nice to have something to watch other than the repeat of NYC times square when our new year started in the central time zone.

Channel 8 is already calling this the beginning of a tradition, but in the past few years Dallas has experienced several large events that did not make it past a couple of years. Main Street NYE (1999) and Trinity Fest 4th of July (2002) come to mind.

Maybe stronger corporate support will keep this one going for a while. It would be nice to see such a tradition develop.

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Not according to the article on the evenet.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ty.2ade2b1.html

The hockey fans came out of the arena that is a logical therat 10 and saved the day...or night. But, hey, a few thousand hockey fans is better than the Houston event, right?

Hey Red...I do agree that this is a logical theory of assumption....but it is totally untrue.....I was there and I wacthed the video on-line the next day......Victory was bursting from the seams and it was incredible!!!!......Its no way you or anyone else for that matter,can dispute the magnitude of this event....To me ...This night.....Victory proved to be what it was built to be.....and its not even halfway built out...........Dallas is arriving...(if we havent already).........But just to give you and any other poster out there the benefit of the doubt.....I was drinking that night....so MAYBE......those thosands and thousands of people that was out ther was just an illussion and everyone did leave when the hockey game was over.....as you said in your earlier post....Bye Bye!

P.S....Oh and I think you should log on to wfaa.com and watch the video yourself.......We all know that seeing is believing!!!

:rolleyes:

Edited by Dallasboi
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Its no way you or anyone else for that matter,can dispute the magnitude of this event....To me ...This night.....Victory proved to be what it was built to be.....and its not even halfway built out...........Dallas is arriving...(if we havent already).

Oh, please. Dallas arrived decades ago. Victory Park and New Year's Eve 2007 are inconsequential.

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Note to Jason, Dave and dallasboy....I did not write the article. In fact, no one from Houston did. You might consider directing your comments to the Dallas Morning News writer who interviewed the police officers and wrote the story. But, I am glad you and the hockey fans enjoyed yourselves. Me, I was at a Russian restaurant, ogling Russian chicks till 5 in the morning. Great way to ring in the new year.

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I was at a Russian restaurant, ogling Russian chicks till 5 in the morning. Great way to ring in the new year.

Russian Bear? One of the supermarket/cafes? Or are you aware of something that I'm not? I'm all ears for any recommendations, especially as Russian Bear is so far from where I work or live these days.

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Note to Jason, Dave and dallasboy....I did not write the article. In fact, no one from Houston did. You might consider directing your comments to the Dallas Morning News writer who interviewed the police officers and wrote the story. But, I am glad you and the hockey fans enjoyed yourselves. Me, I was at a Russian restaurant, ogling Russian chicks till 5 in the morning. Great way to ring in the new year.

Hey red I started a whole thread with the footage of that night.....Just look at the crowd at the start of the video..........Oka...Lets just say that they were Hockey fans......People are People...weather they came from a game a club or their houses...c'mon....be realistic......It was awsome!!!!

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Russian Bear? One of the supermarket/cafes? Or are you aware of something that I'm not? I'm all ears for any recommendations, especially as Russian Bear is so far from where I work or live these days.

Yeah, the Russian Bear rocked. My office partner is from the Ukraine. He and his parents invited about a dozen of us to eat and drink Stoli all night. Great time. I think I fell in love with every waitress in the joint. :blush:

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It was a nice turnout. I'll be sure to visit Victory my next visit to Dallas. Just gotta let me know when the next game is happening so i can see some people! :P

*** Just having fun Dallas. ****

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Nobody ever denied the fact that victory is still somewhat on an event basis experience.....However..........New Years Eve was indeed an "EVENT".....and it turned out awsome!.....thats all Im pointing out......The atmosphere was indeed a small taste of what IS to come in the future when Victory becomes more of a non-stop destination..........I do recall noting that its still not quite built out yet........so...these early judgements,assumptions and gloomy predictions are expected and accepted because this is still a work in progress.......The Houston Pavillions will go through the same thing.....trust me.......Oh....accept the fact that everything will be built at once in the HP....so.....When you go once........you wont have to go for a while because it wont be anything new coming along for a while......Not the same case with VP........see.....we will still be building VP when HP is already old news....It will still be a reason to.....go down and see whats new.....Just an observation. ;)

Edited by Dallasboi
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Nobody ever denied the fact that victory is still somewhat on an event basis experience.....However..........New Years Eve was indeed an "EVENT".....and it turned out awsome!.....thats all Im pointing out......The atmosphere was indeed a small taste of what IS to come in the future when Victory becomes more of a non-stop destination..........I do recall noting that its still not quite built out yet........so...these early judgements,assumptions and gloomy predictions are expected and accepted because this is still a work in progress.......The Houston Pavillions will go through the same thing.....trust me.......Oh....accept the fact that everything will be built at once in the HP....so.....When you go once........you wont have to go for a while because it wont be anything new coming along for a while......Not the same case with VP........see.....we will still be building VP when HP is already old news....It will still be a reason to.....go down and see whats new.....Just an observation. ;)

Just an observation...elipses...are to be used...sparingly...as pauses...for dramatic effect...not randomly...or as a replacement...for all...punctuation...like this...because this is annoying as hell...

Step back and look at Dallas in the grand scheme. Victory Park is inconsequential. Same for Houston Pavilions and all the other stuff in East Downtown. If not there, in that arrangement, all that same stuff would be built elsewhere in a different arrangement. Our economies would demand it, and that is enough. That is how you know that your city has arrived.

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Just an observation...elipses...are to be used...sparingly...as pauses...for dramatic effect...not randomly...or as a replacement...for all...punctuation...like this...because this is annoying as hell...

No ThePedant did not go there. of all people!

Just good ol' fun Niche. :P

This is my first post of the year so i'll be nice about Dallas. It looked like it was a real energy bustling night out. I think it only has room to get better. I'm expecting Houston's new park downtown to grow that kind of energy for events and New Years.

P.S. I don't think that HP will get old any faster than the whole Victory project will. The HP and Park together will serve as catalyst for future projects and expansion.

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Exciting to see all these peeps out! Maybe I'm dull, though, because I prefer places that are more, well, real. To me, Victory and HP are contrived, sterile, "urban" snow globes. In my mind, they're just updated malls. Stick some shops here, a hotel there, an ice skating rink - um - a private park there. These places aren't real. There's no freedom of assembly, no actual public realm. You'd get arrested for speaking your mind if it wasn't popular. These places are all about controlling one's experience and sterilizing it so it's only the pretty and shiny things about urbanism without the fuss or grit. That's not sustainable city-building!

To me, a celebration in the Rice Village, lower Westheimer, or even amongst the strip centers on Hillcroft would be more fun and offer more authenticity than the Disneyland that is Victory or HP.

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Exciting to see all these peeps out! Maybe I'm dull, though, because I prefer places that are more, well, real. To me, Victory and HP are contrived, sterile, "urban" snow globes. In my mind, they're just updated malls. Stick some shops here, a hotel there, an ice skating rink - um - a private park there. These places aren't real. There's no freedom of assembly, no actual public realm. You'd get arrested for speaking your mind if it wasn't popular. These places are all about controlling one's experience and sterilizing it so it's only the pretty and shiny things about urbanism without the fuss or grit. That's not sustainable city-building!

To me, a celebration in the Rice Village, lower Westheimer, or even amongst the strip centers on Hillcroft would be more fun and offer more authenticity than the Disneyland that is Victory or HP.

I agree with u on most of this ......In todays world i think developers focus on having the right "CONCEPT"....They look at older cities that grew more organically and try to mock the success by recreating what is preceived to be the BEST urbanism...the thing that that makes me agree with you is the fact that those great places that they mock(New York,Chicago,ect.)took time to arrive at the point where they are.......Its mor History and culture accured within those districts....So...To think that you can create this overnight,would seem rediculous.....but my theory on that is.....Everything thats old started out new...with that being said....I feel that we are definitely planting the right seeds and infrastructure to grow into one of the great cities of the future..and thats why I don't take offense to insults to Dallas,Victory Park or anything else...because I know we are doing the right stuff.....and no matter how anybody point out the small lil nick and nacks and predict failure.....u cant deny that Dallas is really on the ball.

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I'm not gonna make this about Dallas or Houston but in response to what large TX said, if these develpoments are the urban snow globe disneylands, i'll take it. It beats the hell out three spanning eyesore parking lots where there's no activity or action. HP is also serving as a catalyst for newer developement. I could care less if it's too disneyland. Vegas is disneyland. People come from all over to see Vegas. People come from all over to visit disneyland in Orlando. As long as people are coming to see the place (even if its only locals), its real to me. I don't care if it looks plastic. Just my 2 pennies.

Edited by tierwestah
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I'm not gonna make this about Dallas or Houston but in response to what large TX said, if these develpoments are the urban snow globe disneylands, i'll take it. It beats the hell out three spanning eyesore parking lots where there's no activity or action. HP is also serving as a catalyst for newer developement. I could care less if it's too disneyland. Vegas is disneyland. People come from all over to see Vegas. People come from all over to visit disneyland in Orlando. As long as people are coming to see the place (even if its only locals), its real to me. I don't care if it looks plastic. Just my 2 pennies.

This is ultimately my opinion also....... :rolleyes:

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I agree with the above as well. You're sure not going to see me celebrating in the strip center parking lots on Hillcroft. And nobody visiting Houston is going to enjoy that.

HP is also serving as a catalyst for newer developement. I could care less if it's too disneyland

Hopefully also a catalyst for the revival of the historical district of Downtown.

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You're sure not going to see me celebrating in the strip center parking lots on Hillcroft. And nobody visiting Houston is going to enjoy that.

Hillcroft is a tourist mecca for south Asians living throughout the American South. So is the Bellaire Blvd. corridor for Vietnamese, and that one in particular has really taken off and is on the national map. Neither is much to look at, but they are far superior as tourist draws to anything under construction in either downtown Houston or downtown/uptown Dallas.

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Interesting, because the non-Asian tourists (from the north and south) that I've taken there have absolutely hated it (I think they were expecting something more along the lines of NY or SF style Chinatowns though). I've never thought of it as a tourist mecca before. I always thought of SF's chinatown as tourist mecca while I think of Houston's chinatown as more of a place for the local Asian population.

Edited by Jax
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Interesting, because the non-Asian tourists (from the north and south) that I've taken there have absolutely hated it (I think they were expecting something more along the lines of NY or SF style Chinatowns though). I've never thought of it as a tourist mecca before. I always thought of SF's chinatown as tourist mecca while I think of Houston's chinatown as more of a place for the local Asian population.

Some people are turned on by the gift, others by the wrapping paper.

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Hillcroft is a tourist mecca for south Asians living throughout the American South. So is the Bellaire Blvd. corridor for Vietnamese, and that one in particular has really taken off and is on the national map.

:lol::lol: According to whom? Please tell me you have a source (study) other than yourself. :lol::lol:

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You might consider directing your comments to the Dallas Morning News writer who interviewed the police officers and wrote the story.

Good catch, I missed that and that must be the answer. In the 1.5GB of photos I took, the only police presence was directing traffic outside parking lots for the game and the House of Blues, so I suppose it makes sense they were only seeing those people, as they were manning their posts. I didn't bother emailing the DMN when I first read it because most of the reporters there and much of the paper is beyond repair.

Jason

Edited by JasonDFW
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  • 3 weeks later...
:lol::lol: According to whom? Please tell me you have a source (study) other than yourself. :lol::lol:

The Los Angeles Times did an article called "Flocking from SoCal to Houston" (December 21, 2007) that discussed why Asians are moving in droves to Bellaire Blvd.

Google it up. The Miami newspaper also discussed Bellaire Blvd and environs a couple years ago as well.

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Interesting, because the non-Asian tourists (from the north and south) that I've taken there have absolutely hated it (I think they were expecting something more along the lines of NY or SF style Chinatowns though). I've never thought of it as a tourist mecca before. I always thought of SF's chinatown as tourist mecca while I think of Houston's chinatown as more of a place for the local Asian population.

On a regular or daily PRACTICAL basis, I definitely prefer Houston's sprawling convenience than trying to find virtually non-existent good and free parking in the old style of NY or SF. It's pretty neat to drive through Bellaire at night also with the neon and then pick where we want to eat. It feels just as cool to get a meal at Xiang's or snow ice at May's...regardless of urban form. And there's plenty enough interesting pedestrian activity as it is on the weekends in the Sin Chao and Diho Plaza centers.

Edited by worldlyman
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Bet that's not all he lost. The police report probably reads like a Harlequin romance.

yep and well enough for it to be on the national news this morning. they were saying there were most likely many more cases but the victims are married so they go unreported.

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No, I was just looking at your home forum, and saw this post earlier today by some guy named "skylife":

I had a meeting in Victory this morning and stopped by the site to talk with the crew. They are going to finish a "garage" on the site, without retail while they wait on the "Mandarin." So, while there has been a lot of speculation regarding progress on this project, it seems it has filtered down to the workers. They said the Garage should be open by April. They were very specific to indicate that parts of the original plan were temporarily "left out because parking will be replacing retail" on the side across from the W.

I've also heard that the DMN is working on a story about Victory slowing down development and questioning how risky (for the branding of Victory) it is to stop developing. It seems it's a big risk for Perot to have a 1/3 finished Master Plan. I'm sure the thought of a retreat (or delay) at Victory will spur a great deal of conversation - all the way back to Laura Miller's stance and the TIF deal.

Like everything else, I am only sharing what I have been told. Maybe others have heard more and are wiling to share.

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I just noticed something by looking at c4smok's map. All the projects and surrounding developments around the park and Pavilions on this part of downtown to me definitely looks to almost rival the Victory developement. I know its not larger but could it be almost close to the same size as Victory? Look at the map. Seeing how the developments tie in to eachother, It's becoming more clear now how the topic starter thought to make the comparison.

BTW:I'll try to find a pic of Victory overlook. Or If someone has one already please post it.

houstonprojects.gif

Edited by C2H
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I just noticed something by looking at c4smok's map. All the projects and surrounding developments around the park and Pavilions on this part of downtown to me definitely looks to almost rival the Victory developement. I know its not larger but could it be almost close to the same size as Victory? Look at the map. Seeing how the developments tie in to eachother, It's becoming more clear now how the topic starter thought to make the comparison.

BTW:I'll try to find a pic of Victory overlook. Or If someone has one already please post it.

houstonprojects.gif

I would rather have the projects we are getting DOWNTOWN :wub: then something like Victory that's not Downtown. :D

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dallasboi

I thought so, just making sure.

But yeah Dallasboi just look at the picture map of all the projects that are supposed to follow Houston Pavilions and The Park in the next couple of years. What we're going through now is probably a Phase II or III just like Victory is being done in phases. I guess one could say Phase 1 of downtown eastside development probably started around the Toyota Center and Hilton Americas. Very similar to Victory.

Edited by C2H
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Victory is a very nice development, but it is very inward looking; in other words, fortress Victory seems somewhat disconnected from the rest of the immediate area, which is a fundamental flaw in its design, IMHO. Is HP designed to be integrated with the surrounding area, or are its retail storefronts inward facing as well? Is HP designed to generate foot traffic along its parameter, or is all of the activity "inside" the development?

The reason I ask is that to me good development should integrate with its surrounding area; otherwise, all we have a little islands of urbanity in a sea of parking lots and office buildings.

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Victory is a very nice development, but it is very inward looking; in other words, fortress Victory seems somewhat disconnected from the rest of the immediate area, which is a fundamental flaw in its design, IMHO. Is HP designed to be integrated with the surrounding area, or are its retail storefronts inward facing as well? Is HP designed to generate foot traffic along its parameter, or is all of the activity "inside" the development?

The reason I ask is that to me good development should integrate with its surrounding area; otherwise, all we have a little islands of urbanity in a sea of parking lots and office buildings.

Leasing Plan.

For the most part, entrances will be along the three-block-long internal corridor, although entrances to the lobby and elevator banks are available from the street. Additionally, the big end-cap spaces look to be at least partially facing the street.

I'm conflicted as to whether this is the most integrative leasing plan available to them. On the one hand, I would've preferred that storefronts be more visible to those driving by. On the other, that also exposes shoppers to the elements, and from an aesthetic perspective, the buildings on both sides of Pavilions already act like gigantic blank walls that aren't going to go away, so I'm not quite sure what is there that's worth integrating with.

But at least in the sense that HP is geographically integrated into downtown whereas Victory stands apart, HP does have that going for it.

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The curved endcaps also expose the interior promenade to the streetscape at either end. Given that it is only 3 blocks long...and smack in the middle of downtown...I wouldn't expect it to feel too disconnected. If the ground floor tenants have windows to the sidewalk, that would also help (don't know if that is planned, though).

EDIT: The artists renderings show ground level tenant space facing the street, at least at the corners.

Edited by RedScare
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the inner corridor provides easier access (and sheltered access) for the pedestrians plus it is better for the businesses since the pedestrians will walk by storefronts on each level with one pass. looks like the house of blues will have access away from the inner corridor which would probably be better.

Edited by musicman
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I thought so, just making sure.

But yeah Dallasboi just look at the picture map of all the projects that are supposed to follow Houston Pavilions and The Park in the next couple of years. What we're going through now is probably a Phase II or III just like Victory is being done in phases. I guess one could say Phase 1 of downtown eastside development probably started around the Toyota Center and Hilton Americas. Very similar to Victory.

Ok.....Now I see what you meant........I don't know why my post was mysteriously deleted....All I said was one word......."How"..............but you were so kind as to explain and I greatly appreciate it.

P.S.Could one of the mods be so kind as to pm me and explain to me why this happened? :unsure: ...thanks again C2H ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...

The latest word over at DallasMetropolis is that the Victory Tower construction cranes are coming down. Apparently, they will not be proceeding any time soon with the tower structure. Not only that, they are not even completing the full height of the parking structure, and as reported earlier, they have eliminated the retail portion of the garage structure.

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