Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[Dallasboi]

I think it's likely that Victory tower will be built, I would just be concerned that it doesn't turn out as butt-ugly as the rest of Victory is turning out. What a shame it would be if the project that is giving some Dallasonians a reason to live turns out to be another Dallas architechural eyesore.

I know, I know - it's all subjective, but so are the accolades, not that I've heard too many from anyone outside Dallas regarding the aesthetics of Victory. But the blinky lights are neato, tacky as a white trash christmas, but neato.

OooooH you just wait.

[slfunk]

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You would now have us believe that they are constructing a 45 story building while parking cars (valet parking, no less) on the construction site?? You cannot be serious. Do you suppose Hillwood's liability insurance carrier is aware of this? As someone working in the building industry, have you EVER seen anything like that happen before?

Yes I am, and this is something that goes on all the time. Part of the site is being not be working on, so an adjacent property will sublease or enter into an agreement of some sorts to use it, b/c that portion of the site is not part of the current construction schedule.

A

s to the free-standing parking garage, from what I've read, on this board, on the DFW board and in other places, parking is a pretty big issue in the Victory development, what with all the night life and booming retail development. Are you saying that is not true? And FWIW, free-standing parking garages with first floor retail can absolutely be money-generating structures. And the idea that a parking structure is more expensive per square foot to build than a mixed-use very high-end 45-story tower is laughable. Keep digging, man. You're shredding your credibility, but eventually you might find some piers for the Victory Tower construction. ;-)

Its only a big issue because it has to be planned for in the development in order to get to the density the developer wants. The night life is not there, b/c not everything, and this isn't even 1/3 of the development. That discussion has already out worn itself. As for being more expensive per sq ft. You bet ya. The retail at the base of a parking structure only alivates the cost by a small margins to build the garage. Come talk to me after you have sat through discussions of financing on a project, having to permit the parking, talk with the city to reduce parking and look for alternatives, change an entire project to avoid parking garages. Why do you think developers first choice is to go with swaths of grade parking. Its not for their health. If you want to start pulling that 350/sq ft figure out that these 'luxury towers' market. What do you think goes into that figure when they market the project. That includes the interior finishes, the parking garage, the super structure, the mechanical systems, the elevators, escalators, the labor to build it and the mark up to make a profit. This is the field I am in, but you can keep laughing if you want.

[Houston19514]

Yes I am, and this is something that goes on all the time. Part of the site is being not be working on, so an adjacent property will sublease or enter into an agreement of some sorts to use it, b/c that portion of the site is not part of the current construction schedule.

A

Its only a big issue because it has to be planned for in the development in order to get to the density the developer wants. The night life is not there, b/c not everything, and this isn't even 1/3 of the development. That discussion has already out worn itself. As for being more expensive per sq ft. You bet ya. The retail at the base of a parking structure only alivates the cost by a small margins to build the garage. Come talk to me after you have sat through discussions of financing on a project, having to permit the parking, talk with the city to reduce parking and look for alternatives, change an entire project to avoid parking garages. Why do you think developers first choice is to go with swaths of grade parking. Its not for their health. If you want to start pulling that 350/sq ft figure out that these 'luxury towers' market. What do you think goes into that figure when they market the project. That includes the interior finishes, the parking garage, the super structure, the mechanical systems, the elevators, escalators, the labor to build it and the mark up to make a profit. This is the field I am in, but you can keep laughing if you want.

You seem to be backtracking a bit. One post you tell us that they are putting in piers on the entire site, tower and parking. Now you are telling us that there is a portion of the site they are not working on... Hmmmmm, could that portion perhaps be on the north end where the TOWER will be????

Yea, I'm quite aware that the total construction cost for office space and condos and hotels includes finishes, elevators, mechanical systems etc. That's why I said it's laughable to suggest the cost per square foot to build a parking garage is higher. I'm not just pulling stuff out of my hat here. I have worked on some construction projects and just to check myself did a quick search for the costs on some projects I'm familiar with and could get appoximate cost figures. In short, parking garages do not cost anywhere near as much to build as an office tower (and nobody that I know builds office towers or hotels without including elevators, interior finishes, etc. Perhaps your experience is different ;-) If you were talking about just the cost of the superstructure, then perhaps that is what you should have said.

[Houston19514]

Look guys. All I'm saying is, we've seen posts on this board and the DFW forum starting in March 2006 telling us that construction had started on Victory Tower. Clearly, most of those were mistaken. In addition, as I have noted earlier, despite the repeated posts announcing construction of the tower, such construction has never shown up in any pictures posted on the forums, nor in any media reports (other than a clearly mistaken statement last year by the DMN's real estate reporter), nor on Victory's website (despite their having a pretty up-to-date timeline which has shown all of their major groundbreakings. In addition to all of that, there was the post on the DFW forum stating that, indeed, the tower was not under construction, but only the parking structure had begun. Furthermore, there are no office leases (at least none have been announced, and you will notice they announced a major office lease for 1 Victory Park before or at the same time as they started construction), and they have not even started marketing the condos yet, at least as far as I can find.

It seems difficult not to be skeptical given all of that.

I will be happy to be shown to be wrong on this; but so far, I have seen no credible evidence that construction on the tower is underway. It is just that simple. No one is bashing Victory Place, Victory Tower, or Dallas. I really didn't mean to step on anyone's toes when I started this discussion.

[slfunk]

^Well possibly once the building comes to surface level in a few months you will then believe. If you want marketing info on the condos at the Mandarian, call the hotel chain. You can guide yourself through the website to the number. The W Hotel started out this same way, quietly.

[Houston19514]

^Well possibly once the building comes to surface level in a few months you will then believe.

Only if I see a picture of it. If I saw a picture of piers being poured on the entire site, I would believe it right now. I'm not a difficult person to convince. All it takes is a wee bit of evidence.

[TxDave]

An argument about whether or not Victory Tower is really under construction or not???

Perhaps there is a valid comparison with Houston Pavilions after all!

Of course I say that in jest -- such a hang-up about one project in a development well underway is ridiculous, especially when ultimately compared to a project that is not yet out of the ground (but, hopefully, will be soon!).

[Houston19514]

An argument about whether or not Victory Tower is really under construction or not???

Perhaps there is a valid comparison with Houston Pavilions after all!

Of course I say that in jest -- such a hang-up about one project in a development well underway is ridiculous, especially when ultimately compared to a project that is not yet out of the ground (but, hopefully, will be soon!).

And speaking of ridiculous ... and pointless...

[HtownWxBoy]

Although I think the Dallas Victory Project, in itself, is a nicer / bigger / better project than the Houston Pavilions project (which is expected to break ground over the next 2 weeks), I DEFINITLY think that the Houston Pavilions project will do much more directly and indirectly to make Downtown Houston more "urban"... the thing that most if not all of us want to see happen to both of our cities.

Although Houston Pavilions is a smaller project, it is located in the heart of Downtown Houston, right in the Financial District. The Dallas Victory project, although next to Downtown Dallas (seperated by a freeway... freeways have a history of keeping parts of cities seperated even though they may be located next to each other) and on the rail, is not in Downtown Dallas. Houston has a few other projects in the plans like Victory (similar in concept though not as big in scale) that will include office space, retail, residential space, etc... but the Houston Pavilions project is right Downtown. These other projects, in themselves, may be urban-ish... but they aren't going to make the main core of the cities more urban like the Houston Pavilions project has the potential to do. This project will bring 3 much needed things a location wanting to attract residents needs... restaurants, retail and entertainment. This will most likely bring more people downtown wanting to live there... this will in turn hopefully bring more retail / restaurants / food stores / residential developments, etc... this will bring more people.... and so on and so forth. About to go up pretty much right next to Houston Pavilions is a 37 story residential tower (which will have street-level retail, including a grocery store) which is going up next to the new downtown park already under construction. Pretty much right next to the new park in Downtown Houston are our baseball and basketball stadiums and our Convention Center. Also waiting to open on Main Street in Downtown Houston along the Metrorail right next to the Houston Pavilions project is American Apparel, which is doing very well in its new Montrose location. American Apparel has a history of opening stores in parts of towns needing retail... and more tend to follow them. Other retail stores are in the plans to open on Main Street near Houston Pavilions. ALL of these projects/developments are within SHORT walking distance to each other IN Downtown Houston.

Don't get me wrong, the Dallas Victory project is a GREAT project... in itself I think it's much bigger and better than Houston Pavilions... but when we are talking about wanting to make our cities more like cities say in the Northeast where the downtown core is full of people, places to eat and shop, entertainment complexes, soaring office and residential towers, etc... well, I think Houston Pavilions is going to do much more for Downtown Houston than Dallas Victory is going to do for Downtown Dallas. Just my opionion, though.

[Dallascaper]

Although I think the Dallas Victory Project, in itself, is a nicer / bigger / better project than the Houston Pavilions project (which is expected to break ground over the next 2 weeks), I DEFINITLY think that the Houston Pavilions project will do much more directly and indirectly to make Downtown Houston more "urban"... the thing that most if not all of us want to see happen to both of our cities.

Although Houston Pavilions is a smaller project, it is located in the heart of Downtown Houston, right in the Financial District. The Dallas Victory project, although next to Downtown Dallas (seperated by a freeway... freeways have a history of keeping parts of cities seperated even though they may be located next to each other) and on the rail, is not in Downtown Dallas. Houston has a few other projects in the plans like Victory (similar in concept though not as big in scale) that will include office space, retail, residential space, etc... but the Houston Pavilions project is right Downtown. These other projects, in themselves, may be urban-ish... but they aren't going to make the main core of the cities more urban like the Houston Pavilions project has the potential to do. This project will bring 3 much needed things a location wanting to attract residents needs... restaurants, retail and entertainment. This will most likely bring more people downtown wanting to live there... this will in turn hopefully bring more retail / restaurants / food stores / residential developments, etc... this will bring more people.... and so on and so forth. About to go up pretty much right next to Houston Pavilions is a 37 story residential tower (which will have street-level retail, including a grocery store) which is going up next to the new downtown park already under construction. Pretty much right next to the new park in Downtown Houston are our baseball and basketball stadiums and our Convention Center. Also waiting to open on Main Street in Downtown Houston along the Metrorail right next to the Houston Pavilions project is American Apparel, which is doing very well in its new Montrose location. American Apparel has a history of opening stores in parts of towns needing retail... and more tend to follow them. Other retail stores are in the plans to open on Main Street near Houston Pavilions. ALL of these projects/developments are within SHORT walking distance to each other IN Downtown Houston.

Don't get me wrong, the Dallas Victory project is a GREAT project... in itself I think it's much bigger and better than Houston Pavilions... but when we are talking about wanting to make our cities more like cities say in the Northeast where the downtown core is full of people, places to eat and shop, entertainment complexes, soaring office and residential towers, etc... well, I think Houston Pavilions is going to do much more for Downtown Houston than Dallas Victory is going to do for Downtown Dallas. Just my opionion, though.

From what I've read on this thread, it

[HtownWxBoy]

Victory's impact on downtown D is unknown; you are right that freeways have historically had a dividing effect on cities, but I don't think DT and Uptown are as separated as some think. If nothing else, Victory will help add vitality to Dallas' expanding urban core, if not downtown directly.

True... but in my opinion, Houston Pavilions (along with everything else that has gone up or will soon be going up in Downtown Houston) will affect Downtown Houston directly... which will in turn, help add to the vitality of Houston's expanding urban core. And with respect to the freeway... the areas don't have to be seperated by much... just look at Boston before the Big Dig project... it only took one freeway to divide the city.

From Wikipedia...

"Boston's historically tangled streets were laid out long before the advent of the automobile. By mid-20th century, car traffic in the inner city was extremely congested, with north-south trips especially so. Commissioner of Public Works William Callahan advanced plans for an elevated expressway which eventually was constructed (1951-59) between the downtown area and the waterfront. The Central Artery (known officially as the John F. Fitzgerald Expressway) displaced thousands of residents and businesses and physically divided the historical connection between the downtown and market areas and the waterfront."

I agree, Dallas' Victory Project is a great urban project... but to me, HP will, in the end, do more to assist Houston in creating a central, dense, urban core. If HP were being built in Uptown Houston or near Greenway Plaza or even in Montrose or Midtown, I would not be as excited about the affect this project will have on making Houston more "urban". It would create an "urban" area... but not make the central core of the city more urban. HP itself will not make Downtown Houston really dense and urban.. but I think once it is built, other projects, both retail and residential, will follow, making Downtown Houston more dense and urban.

[Analog]

^^

I'm sure you're just talking about freeways in general, but have you ever been to Boston? I've spent a ton of time there. The old central artery was "nothing" like Dallas' Woodall Rogers. The central artery was a massive beast... Woodall Rogers is nothing like it and doesn't divide the city anywhere near as much as Boston was divided. Overall, Woodall is pretty pedestrian friendly for a freeway.

It's interesting how everyone I talk to in Dallas-FW considers Victory part of downtown... it's only residents from other areas that "think" it's outside of downtown.

[HtownWxBoy]

^^

I'm sure you're just talking about freeways in general, but have you ever been to Boston? I've spent a ton of time there. The old central artery was "nothing" like Dallas' Woodall Rogers. The central artery was a massive beast... Woodall Rogers is nothing like it and doesn't divide the city anywhere near as much as Boston was divided. Overall, Woodall is pretty pedestrian friendly for a freeway.

It's interesting how everyone I talk to in Dallas-FW considers Victory part of downtown... it's only residents from other areas that "think" it's outside of downtown.

Yes, I have been to Boston. I don't know much about the freeway in Dallas seperating Downtown from the Victory project... I just know it's a freeway. I have always been amazed, just living in Houston, how much a single elevated freeway (big or small) can divide parts of town, even when you can easily walk under it from one part of town to another. The two sides are literally like night and day... it's amazing.

And as for Victory being in or not being in Downtown Dallas, I am only going by what I have learned (not what I "think") is Downtown Dallas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Dallas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dallasmap_downtown.svg

From what I see, Victory is right next to Downtown Dallas, not IN Downtown Dallas. Am I wrong? Maybe this is why residents from "other areas" "think" Victory is not in Downtown Dallas... because it's not. I am not saying it's not close to Downtown... it is... it's right next to it... I am just saying that it's not technically IN Downtown. I think Victory is an amazing project that Dallas should be proud of... though I personally believe Houston Pavilions, though smaller, will in the end do more for Downtown Houston because it's in the middle of Downtown, right in the Financial District. Again, just my opinion.

[Houston19514]

^^

It's interesting how everyone I talk to in Dallas-FW considers Victory part of downtown... it's only residents from other areas that "think" it's outside of downtown.

Well, only residents from other areas and every office market research/reporting service known to man. They all consider Uptown/Victory to be a separate market from downtown Dallas.

[slfunk]

Well the traditionally defined downtown has been inside the freeway loop. So you are correct. Analog is also correct in that Victory will be part of downtown in the future. Living in this area for almost 5 years now (uptown) you can really see the patterns starting change as downtown and uptown merge. People park in the West End and walk to the AAC, as well as, people park near the Cresent and walk to the AAC. I for one was one that walked from my office in downtown to my apartment in uptown a couple times a week depending on weather. I had to cross Woodall's. I had a couple of fellow walkers, but its still a car city. But when I get up to McKinney Ave, I would pass several people by near the Hard Rock and Truluck's. The city of Dallas recognizes the inherent separation of two areas by a freeway and is addressing this issue. At the west end you have a park like feel where a carnival well set up once a year. They have used pavement patterns, brick pavers, planted trees and some grass. People walk this part all the time. This is between Hooters and the West End Market Place. At Routh Street in the Arts District, a design competion was inacted to create a pedestrian friendly environment for people to go from uptown to the Arts District. The city is seeking funding for this project and hopes to have something solidified by the time the Arts District construction completes this initial phase of construction. At the Deep Ellum edge, Dallas is learning from San Antonio's lead of providing a lighting effect under the bridges for night time. Trying to keep the Deep Ellum (funky) feel while providing plenty of lighting for people pass under the bridges and provide some extra lighting at the dog park.

[RedScare]

The freeway barrier phenomenon is a well studied subconscious barrier. Grocery stores have long recognized that residents will travel a longer distance to a store that is not separated by a freeway, rather than go under the freeway to the closer one. As slfunk mentions, even if posters on this forum discount the phenomenon, Dallas city leaders recognize it, and are making attempts to minimize its effect. The proposal to cover the Woodall Rogers freeway with a park is one such attempt. Improved lighting is another. But, the barrier is real, even if it is psychological.

This is not unique to Dallas. The Pierce Elevated in Houston completely separates Downtown from Midtown psychologically, if not physically. The Central Artery in Boston was another example. Again, in Houston, even though the Heights begins at Washington Avenue, everyone thinks of the Heights as that area north of the Katy Freeway. In the Woodlands, the area east of I-45 was long considered a retail graveyard because it was on the opposite side of the freeway from the Woodlands.

Dallas' efforts to remove the psychological barrier may succeed, especially since much of the freeway is below grade. It may not. It is clearly an effort to help Downtown reap some of the success of Uptown/Victory. Clearly, Downtown needs the help, not Uptown/Victory.

[Dallasboi]

The freeway barrier phenomenon is a well studied subconscious barrier. Grocery stores have long recognized that residents will travel a longer distance to a store that is not separated by a freeway, rather than go under the freeway to the closer one. As slfunk mentions, even if posters on this forum discount the phenomenon, Dallas city leaders recognize it, and are making attempts to minimize its effect. The proposal to cover the Woodall Rogers freeway with a park is one such attempt. Improved lighting is another. But, the barrier is real, even if it is psychological.

This is not unique to Dallas. The Pierce Elevated in Houston completely separates Downtown from Midtown psychologically, if not physically. The Central Artery in Boston was another example. Again, in Houston, even though the Heights begins at Washington Avenue, everyone thinks of the Heights as that area north of the Katy Freeway. In the Woodlands, the area east of I-45 was long considered a retail graveyard because it was on the opposite side of the freeway from the Woodlands.

Dallas' efforts to remove the psychological barrier may succeed, especially since much of the freeway is below grade. It may not. It is clearly an effort to help Downtown reap some of the success of Uptown/Victory. Clearly, Downtown needs the help, not Uptown/Victory.

Excellent post red!!!!!!I agree 1000%

[tierwestah]

One thing for sure, Houston Pavilions and all the surrounding development such as The Park, MMP, Toyta Cntr, etc. will cater to more types of people than Dallas victory. This will probably result in larger crowds than Dallas Victory will see. DV only really will cater to the elite who have alot of $$$$.

[Dallasboi]

One thing for sure, Houston Pavilions and all the surrounding development such as The Park, MMP, Toyta Cntr, etc. will cater to more types of people than Dallas victory. This will probably result in larger crowds than Dallas Victory will see. DV only really will cater to the elite who have alot of $$$$.

Once again........This is not true. ...Why does everybody keep saying this? Of course it will have some stuff that is a little pricey but that's to give the development variety and diversity.....in other words there will be more affordable shops than expensive ones...Now don't get me wrong.......none of the shops are popular chain brands like G.A.P amd J.Crew,Polo etc. ,But If I can afford to shop in those stores anybody can........Just for the record can some one name the stuff that caters only to the rich?

[nmainguy]

Once again........This is not true. ...Why does everybody keep saying this? Of course it will have some stuff that is a little pricey but that's to give the development variety and diversity.....in other words there will be more affordable shops than expensive ones...Now don't get me wrong.......none of the shops are popular chain brands like G.A.P amd J.Crew,Polo etc. ,But If I can afford to shop in those stores anybody can........Just for the record can some one name the stuff that caters only to the rich?

Gucci

Tiffanys

Cartier

Bentley

Rolls Royce

Chanel

Maybach

Baccarat

Lalique

Versace

Vera Wang

Harry Winston

etc...

[Dallasboi]

Gucci

Tiffanys

Cartier

Bentley

Rolls Royce

Chanel

Maybach

Baccarat

Lalique

Versace

Vera Wang

Harry Winston

etc...

Now I havent heard of any of those going in Victory.....Correct me if Im wrong..........Please!!!!

[HarryMoto]

Gucci

Tiffanys

Cartier

Bentley

Rolls Royce

Chanel

Maybach

Baccarat

Lalique

Versace

Vera Wang

Harry Winston

etc...

Harry Winston is in Highland Park Village. Gucci's in the Galleria. Cartier and Tiffany are in NorthPark and the Galleria. None of those other retailers have been mentioned in connection with Victory as far as I know. Most of the businesses slated for Victory may be expensive but are skewed slightly more yuppie youthful and less old-school -- as in the W Hotel, G Star (clothes), Haven (houseware), headquarters for the upcoming AFI Dallas Film Festival, the Oakville gourmet grocery out of Northern California and clubs like Liquid Sky (with a retractable roof) and Ghostbar.

[Dallasboi]

Harry Winston is in Highland Park Village. Gucci's in the Galleria. Cartier and Tiffany are in NorthPark and the Galleria. None of those other retailers have been mentioned in connection with Victory as far as I know. Most of the businesses slated for Victory may be expensive but are skewed slightly more yuppie youthful and less old-school -- as in the W Hotel, G Star (clothes), Haven (houseware), headquarters for the upcoming AFI Dallas Film Festival, the Oakville gourmet grocery out of Northern California and clubs like Liquid Sky (with a retractable roof) and Ghostbar.

Good post^^^^^........Thanks Harry for helping me make my point even clearer!!!!!

[banking214]

I was talking to someone the other night that is working on another project in the Victory vicinity. It appears as if The Donald is serious (define it) about building in Dallas. The proposed project would be around 700 feet, contain residential/retail/commerical, possibly a hotel. The project is most likely going to be located across from The Mondrian on the vacant stretch of property along 35. The name currently being used: The Apprentice.

Harry Winston is in Highland Park Village. Gucci's in the Galleria. Cartier and Tiffany are in NorthPark and the Galleria. None of those other retailers have been mentioned in connection with Victory as far as I know. Most of the businesses slated for Victory may be expensive but are skewed slightly more yuppie youthful and less old-school -- as in the W Hotel, G Star (clothes), Haven (houseware), headquarters for the upcoming AFI Dallas Film Festival, the Oakville gourmet grocery out of Northern California and clubs like Liquid Sky (with a retractable roof) and Ghostbar.

I can't wait for the new Cartier store to open. Going to be incredible.

[nmainguy]

....Just for the record can some one name the stuff that caters only to the rich?

Here's the record-again:

Gucci

Tiffanys

Cartier

Bentley

Rolls Royce

Chanel

Maybach

Baccarat

Lalique

Versace

Vera Wang

Harry Winston

etc...

Now I havent heard of any of those going in Victory.....Correct me if Im wrong..........Please!!!!

I don't know if you're wrong or right. All I did is answer your question. You asked "can some one name the stuff that caters only to the rich?"

I gave you a list. Maybe some will show up in Victory-maybe some won't. Never the less, Victory is geared towards the high end so except for Gomer staggering through the plaza on his way from a tractor pull at the AA, don't expect his cousin/brother/uncle to be stopping by for a latte at the "You Can't Afford Us Coffee Salon so why don't you Haul your Drunken Ass home to Crandall"

BTW, I love Dallas and welcome anything that will bring more people and $$ to the city...but let's not pretend Victory is for anyone like Gomer.

[NDtexan]

I was talking to someone the other night that is working on another project in the Victory vicinity. It appears as if The Donald is serious (define it) about building in Dallas. The proposed project would be around 700 feet, contain residential/retail/commerical, possibly a hotel. The project is most likely going to be located across from The Mondrian on the vacant stretch of property along 35. The name currently being used: The Apprentice.

I can't wait for the new Cartier store to open. Going to be incredible.

The Mondrian is on Central not I-35, so you've either got the highway or the building wrong. Chances are you've got the entire thing wrong, as it seems Trump is all about floating rumors to generate interest in his speaking engagements that he charges for...whatever the case might actually be, if you haven't already, please post this information at dallasmetropolis where it can be discussed properly.

[banking214]

The Mondrian is on Central not I-35, so you've either got the highway or the building wrong. Chances are you've got the entire thing wrong, as it seems Trump is all about floating rumors to generate interest in his speaking engagements that he charges for...whatever the case might actually be, if you haven't already, please post this information at dallasmetropolis where it can be discussed properly.

Let me say "Mandarin" Oriental. I was thinking of The Mondrian in LA when I was typing this.

The sources are pretty reliable. I do understand your lack of enthusiasm when it comes to Mr. Trump and his projects. He does tend to make grandoise statments at times. However, this is something that will happen with time. In this case, you should be a little more of an optimist.

Here's the record-again:

I don't know if you're wrong or right. All I did is answer your question. You asked "can some one name the stuff that caters only to the rich?"

I gave you a list. Maybe some will show up in Victory-maybe some won't. Never the less, Victory is geared towards the high end so except for Gomer staggering through the plaza on his way from a tractor pull at the AA, don't expect his cousin/brother/uncle to be stopping by for a latte at the "You Can't Afford Us Coffee Salon so why don't you Haul your Drunken Ass home to Crandall"

BTW, I love Dallas and welcome anything that will bring more people and $$ to the city...but let's not pretend Victory is for anyone like Gomer.

Where is Crandall? Seriously.

[NDtexan]

Let me say "Mandarin" Oriental. I was thinking of The Mondrian in LA when I was typing this.

The sources are pretty reliable. I do understand your lack of enthusiasm when it comes to Mr. Trump and his projects. He does tend to make grandoise statments at times. However, this is something that will happen with time. In this case, you should be a little more of an optimist.

So according to your sources, Trump's looking at land on the west side of 35 near Industrial Blvd. not too far from the huge jail complex? I sure hope not, because if this project ever comes near fruition, it'll need to be in downtown. Having new high-rise construction outside of DT and outside of Victory/Uptown really doesn't seem to make sense at this point - there's little to no interest in that area for mixed use development right now (if the Trinity project ever gets rolling, then it'll be a totally different story). Plus, the negative impact on DT could be huge...missing out on a new major high-rise again would only further enforce the stigma that downtown Dallas is still dead as a doornail.

But you were right, I'm not optimistic when it comes to Trump, so there's really no reason to get worked up about it. And there's no reason to keep straying from the topic of this thread, so I'll stop.

[nmainguy]

Where is Crandall? Seriously.

On 175 just east of Seagoville.

[RedScare]

Well, someone at the Dallas Morning News seemed to agree with you about a year and a half ago. I just take a different view point. In an effort to be fair and balanced I'm posting the article below.

________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________

Dallas entertainment districts too dispersed

Dallas struggles with entertainment districts that visitors never see

07:25 PM CDT on Saturday, July 30, 2005

By SUZANNE MARTA / The Dallas Morning News

When it comes to Dallas' nightlife and entertainment, how much is too much?

REX C. CURRY/Special Contributor

Jason Sellers holds a corny dog just out of reach of his son Ayden Sellers, 3, at the Taste of Dallas in the West End. From the West Village to the West End, from Deep Ellum to Main Street, Dallas has plenty of entertainment close to downtown. But the city has struggled to shake off perceptions by visitors and locals alike that there's nothing to do here.

Some say the number of entertainment districts could spread the city's resources too thin, offering several places to visit but few that stand out or hold a visitor's attention.

Others say the key is diversity, offering something visitors can't find in other cities and something locals can't find in the suburbs.

Could more entertainment do the trick?

The developers of the $3 billion Victory complex and the newly proposed entertainment district behind the Dallas Convention Center hope so.

Surrounding American Airlines Center, Hillwood's 75-acre Victory would create an upscale, urban center with coiffed plazas, high-end boutiques, marquee restaurants and luxury condos when its first projects open next summer.

Victory's scale is difficult to comprehend, simply driving by the cranes and building skeletons. But at the project's stylized Discovery Center on Cedar Springs, the scale model of planned buildings and streetscapes paints a picture of city transformed.

"Victory is the ultimate urban neighborhood in Dallas," said Jonas Woods, who oversees the project as president of Hillwood Capital. "There's a vibrancy in our streets you won't find in our nearest neighbors in Uptown."

Buildings in the current phase of construction begin opening next summer but represent a mere third of the overall project. . .

you can read the rest of the article, along with commentary, here.

This article is from a post 713 to 214 posted on another thread about Dallas nightlife. Aside from dallasboi's constant protests that Victory is being built for the masses, words like upscale, high end, coiffed, marquee and luxury suggest that the target market is one that is prepared to drop several hundred dollars at it's restaurants, not one looking for happy hour drink specials. This is not to say that this is a bad thing, as a $3 billion dollar development needs big spenders to survive, not gawkers, but dallasboi's description of things sounds more like wishful thinking than the reality on the ground.

And, for one of the biggest differences between Victory and HP, this may be it. Whereas HP is signing more tenants that provide entertainment, Victory is going for more of the upscale neighborhood look, with the obvious exception being AAC itself.