Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[tierwestah]

In other news, I heard W was looking at Austin for locations. This is the only thing I could find.

Why can't Houston lure high end hotels like this?

What many of you fail to realize is that not everybody cares about who has high end hotels or who has upscale shopping. At the end of the day, a hotel is a hotel and shop is a shop.

Now me, i'm an average american and i'm broke as hell. Most Americans are average and don't fall into the elite category that alot of these developements in Dallas will cater to. I don't expect it to bring in the critical mass of people it hopes to by the simple fact that it will be the "first" to have it. It will not suddenly redefine Dallas to be a city of greatness. Dallas is already a city of greatness.

Do you think places like San Antonio, Orlando, Denver, New York, New Orleans, and LA are visited just because they have upscale this or that? No. Most Americans are average people who just enjoy basic amentities. These things Dallas is getting will mostly cater to people on a business trip, nothing more.

[RedScare]

Sheesh, Dallasboi and Troyboy... Take a breath; yeah, a nice deep breath. Redscare was just playin' with ya. and man, did you two fall in, hook, line, and sinker, as they say. Let's try to stay rational, and on subject now, shall we?

Like shooting fish in a barrel.

I've mentioned this before, but it always gets ignored by certain Dallas posters. I don't dislike Dallas. I lived there. I have family there. I DO hate the Cowboys, but that comes from growing up in North Carolina (pre-Panthers), where we rooted for the Redskins.

The problem with the Dallas threads is that if ANYTHING that can remotely be construed as anti-Dallas appears, a contingent of "Dallas Uber Alles" types will swoop in and scream, "You hate Dallas!" Hey, I didn't make up the Dallas office vacancy figures! They came from Dallas real estate professionals. And, frankly, some of the posts are downright stupid. Saying that big companies are coming to downtown when the experts say they are not is a LIE. Saying that numerous small tenants will more than make up for the large ones that leave is wishful thinking.

This forum is open to anyone who follows the rules. Dallas boosters must understand that the posts on this forum will sound a lot less like the Chamber of Commerce than a Dallas forum will. I have my opinions as to why downtown has persitently high vacancies, opinions like overly active developers, the city allowing downtown to detiorate, telecom busts, etc. If I want to post the opinions, I am free to do so, just as you are. However, if your post flies in the face of logic, I will state THAT, too. And, if you then become a crybaby, because my research is better than yours, I will then figuratively dance on your head.

If you spent any time at all on any non-Dallas threads, you would find that a lot of us do this to each other, as well. Some fight back, others whine just like you. But, on HAIF, as in life, he who is unprepared is lost.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be to concede downtown's anemic vacancy rate. You'll never put enough lipstick on that pig. Also, don't try to make Uptown and Victory a part of downtown. They aren't. Instead, brag about the fact that Dallas is sidestepping the ruin that is downtown into new digs a mile away. No one disses Uptown and Victory, unless you try to make it downtown.

And, then there is banking214! I don't know, dude, why can't we lure hotels like W? Perhaps because we associate 'W' with failure? I know that's why I would never stay in one.

[zebra]

Well said Tierwestah and Rescare.

[Dallasboi]

In other news, I heard W was looking at Austin for locations. This is the only thing I could find.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/.../30/story1.html

Why can't Houston lure high end hotels like this?

Beats me ..............You would think that everything would automatically go to the largest city right?....Well I know if I was an upscale store I would go to the city with the "mostest" people....you know the 4th largest city would be my choice over the 9th largest..........oh.......maybe that's not important after all...Go figure again!!!

[Dallasboi]

Like shooting fish in a barrel.

I've mentioned this before, but it always gets ignored by certain Dallas posters. I don't dislike Dallas. I lived there. I have family there. I DO hate the Cowboys, but that comes from growing up in North Carolina (pre-Panthers), where we rooted for the Redskins.

The problem with the Dallas threads is that if ANYTHING that can remotely be construed as anti-Dallas appears, a contingent of "Dallas Uber Alles" types will swoop in and scream, "You hate Dallas!" Hey, I didn't make up the Dallas office vacancy figures! They came from Dallas real estate professionals. And, frankly, some of the posts are downright stupid. Saying that big companies are coming to downtown when the experts say they are not is a LIE. Saying that numerous small tenants will more than make up for the large ones that leave is wishful thinking.

This forum is open to anyone who follows the rules. Dallas boosters must understand that the posts on this forum will sound a lot less like the Chamber of Commerce than a Dallas forum will. I have my opinions as to why downtown has persitently high vacancies, opinions like overly active developers, the city allowing downtown to detiorate, telecom busts, etc. If I want to post the opinions, I am free to do so, just as you are. However, if your post flies in the face of logic, I will state THAT, too. And, if you then become a crybaby, because my research is better than yours, I will then figuratively dance on your head.

If you spent any time at all on any non-Dallas threads, you would find that a lot of us do this to each other, as well. Some fight back, others whine just like you. But, on HAIF, as in life, he who is unprepared is lost.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be to concede downtown's anemic vacancy rate. You'll never put enough lipstick on that pig. Also, don't try to make Uptown and Victory a part of downtown. They aren't. Instead, brag about the fact that Dallas is sidestepping the ruin that is downtown into new digs a mile away. No one disses Uptown and Victory, unless you try to make it downtown.

And, then there is banking214! I don't know, dude, why can't we lure hotels like W? Perhaps because we associate 'W' with failure? I know that's why I would never stay in one.

"Why would you associate a good brand like W hotels with failure and they had to add another tower to our W because the first tower sold out.........If that's failure I will be the first to admitt that I want everything in DTD to fail...

"Why would you associate a good brand like W hotels with failure and they had to add another tower to our W because the first tower sold out.........If that's failure I will be the first to admitt that I want everything in DTD to fail...

Oh I forgot ....Dallas=Failure

[RedScare]

"Why would you associate a good brand like W hotels with failure and they had to add another tower to our W because the first tower sold out.........If that's failure I will be the first to admitt that I want everything in DTD to fail...

Oh I forgot ....Dallas=Failure

dalasboi, you are priceless.

[Dallasboi]

dalasboi, you are priceless.

Thanks!!!! and I hope We are still friends

[RedScare]

Thanks!!!! and I hope We are still friends

Always, my Dallas friend. Always.

...and have a happy Thanksgiving. Go Tampa Bay!

[dalparadise]

I might be wrong ......but I think that even if you did like something about Dallas you would take it to your grave because you would feel as if you were cheating on Houston....That's my opinion...Please correct me.Please tell me that you do know that not all things in Dallas suck(like most Houstonians say)and that Just because Houston is the 4th largest city dosent mean that it is automatically superior to all other cities that fall behind the 4th largest rank.Please tell me that you will give victory it's props when you visit(I Know you will visit) instead of pointing out all of the things you thought was bad about it.And last but not least....please be willing to admitt that Victory Blows HP away..........cause it does. I know it will take alot for you to do but do at least two of them and I will be Happy.

I'll be happy to admit that Victory "blows HP away". They are not even in the same league. HP is a component of the larger Downtown Houston. Victory seems more like its own development. HP will be an asset to Downtown Houston -- which, incidentally, blows Downtown Dallas away. Downtown Dallas is building and trying to overcome some rot -- they are about 15 years or so behind Downtown Houston.

Victory is an amazing development. It is in a different world from HP. We did our Victory project about 30 years ago. It was called Greenway Plaza. It had the same elements that Victory has, just three miles farther outside Downtown. Victory will be more successful than Greenway was (or, IS -- Greenway is very successful) and Victory is WAY nicer than Greenway and will make a larger overall impact, in my opinion. It's the same way a 2007 car is nicer and more advanced than a 1972 one is. Our answer may very well be Hardy Yards or something like it in Midtown. Whatever -- a comparison to HP is a stretch, by any measure. I believe it would take Houston about 10-15 years to develop a Victory-like project. When we do, it will blow Victory away, if anybody really cares about that.

It took Dallas over 30 years to come up with something like Greenway Plaza to stimulate their near Downtown growth. What they built is light years ahead of Greenway. When Houston builds its answer to Victory it will be another quantum leap forward. Then, Dallas will probably trump that. Why is this so hard to understand?

[TexasStar]

New Victory pictures...

[713 To 214]

In much of the DFW Metroplex, DT Dallas IS the new place to be. . .whether you realize it or not. . . whether you want to admit it or not. . .whether you understand it or not! Speaking from the perspective of a former Downtown Improvement District (DID) Board member, I can tell you that the development you're seeing in and around Downtown has been carefully scripted, and is on point to deliver what was intended. . .a vibrant downtown area that is ever expanding into the area currently known as Uptown. Don't be a fool and think that this is all happening haphazardly. Don't think that minds smarter than yours have not thought many years ahead of the curve to anticipate the relocations and the current DT office vacancy rates (which is why there are many older office buildings being converted to multiuse/residential/hotel and why many leases are being negotiated as we speak to replace those vacating tenants).

Get your head out of your ass. Do you really think that the Caltrava Bridges/Trinity River project, DART Rail expansion (including an upcomming DT subway), Woodall Rodgers Deck Park, Arts District Expansion, Pegasus Project, and all of the private development they are spawning (including Victory, Hunt HQ, One Arts Plaza) is happening at the same time because it's a coincidence? I haven't even mentioned the DT Parks Master Plan.

In short. . .of course Victory will have an impact on DT Dallas. . .and a very positive one. It further solidifies that 3 square mile area (DT Dallas, Uptown, Deep Ellum, & Cedars) as the new place to be. With some of the highest rents in the area, (aside from the Arts District) only the most prestigious, image-aware firms will locate there. This will only cause a wave of less prestigious firms to move into the spaces vacated by the prestigious, image-aware firms.

Will the Pavillions have a greater impact on DT Houston? I don't know. However, with the recent announcement of the residential component's cancellation (a major blow b/c this is something DT Houston sorely needs), I really don't see it, by itself, making that big of a difference. DT Houston's problem is that it doesn't have enough people LIVING there. Until the residential component reaches a critical mass, DT Houston is going to be relatively dead during non-business hours. . .no matter how much more retail and office components are built.

[RedScare]

Will the Pavillions have a greater impact on DT Houston? I don't know. However, with the recent announcement of the residential component's cancellation (a major blow b/c this is something DT Houston sorely needs), I really don't see it, by itself, making that big of a difference. DT Houston's problem is that it doesn't have enough people LIVING there. Until the residential component reaches a critical mass, DT Houston is going to be relatively dead during non-business hours. . .no matter how much more retail and office components are built.

Umm....you might oughta check your numbers. DT Houston actually has more residents than DT Dallas.

[713 To 214]

Umm....you might oughta check your numbers. DT Houston actually has more residents than DT Dallas.

Redscare, Redscare. . .when will you learn? You want to be like 713 you gotta wait your turn! Rather than get into circular, tangential arguments with you, I find it much more humorous to see if you can defend yourself. So, assuming your statement is true, what's your point?

I can't wait for your response.

[tierwestah]

Redscare, Redscare. . .when will you learn? You want to be like 713 you gotta wait your turn! Rather than get into circular, tangential arguments with you, I find it much more humorous to see if you can defend yourself. So, assuming your statement is true, what's your point?

I can't wait for your response.

I'm not going to speak for Redscare over what his point is. I can only tell you what i got out of his statement. Downtown Dallas and surrounding areas is doing everything from building to loft conversion, yet there downtown residential market is no better off than Houston's.

I find it amusing how Dallasites on this forum relish in the fact that the residential component was taken out of the Houston Pavilions project. I posted the point and article before and many dallasites ignored my post, so i'll say it again. Denton and Jones did not cut the residential portion out as a reflection on how the resident population was doing. It was due to having to construct underground parking for the Pavilions. This would result in them having to charge astronomical rates to live there to compensate for the cost of construction for an underground garage. They knew that there people would refuse so they just eliminated the residential alltogether. Yes it is unfortunate but who's to say a residential component couldn't be added later?

And further more, even though the resident was cut out, we still have the Finger Park Tower development that will be built 2 blocks away. I would much rather see the Finger Tower go up rather than the funky 200+ rooms the Pavilions were going to offer. Like 19514 said, it might be profitable to add hotel units as opposed to permanent residents. They probably will be doing that after all.

[713 To 214]

O.K., without calling any names, and for future reference. . .whenever someone posts something directly in response to something I posted, and I don't post something in response to his/her post, it's because I found his/her post to be so unintelligent, uninteresting, or otherwise unimportant that I decided not to waste my time responding, but rather let that person's unintelligent, uninteresting, or otherwise unimportant comment speak for itself.

Now, to keep this on the subject. . .Someone please provide me with the DT Houston and DT Dallas residency numbers so that we can put this falicy to rest. I have some of my own. However, I would just love to compare.

[Gary]

O.K., without calling any names, and for future reference. . .whenever someone posts something directly in response to something I posted, and I don't post something in response to his/her post, it's because I found his/her post to be so unintelligent, uninteresting, or otherwise unimportant that I decided not to waste my time responding, but rather let that person's unintelligent, uninteresting, or otherwise unimportant comment speak for itself.

Now, to keep this on the subject. . .Someone please provide me with the DT Houston and DT Dallas residency numbers so that we can put this falicy to rest. I have some of my own. However, I would just love to compare.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, your a real jerk.

[VicMan]

Anyway, I found out about the school zoning for the W Hotel Dallas and The Terrace (the two residential projects open in the Victory Project)...

(Dallas ISD)

* Medrano Elementary School

* Rusk Middle School

* North Dallas High School

[Willy1]

I looked for DT Dallas and DT Houston population figures, but couldn't find any solid numbers. I did recently read that DT Fort Worth has about 1000 more people than DT Dallas right now. But, DT Dallas will probably outgrow DT FW eventually since DTD dwarfs DT FW and FW doesn't seem to be building anything significant. Dallas is building a lot of new residential units and also converting a ton of old office space to residential. FW is mainly just converting old space to residential. I believe DT Dallas and DT Houston have similar populations... but I couldn't find anything solid to support what I've read....

[JasonDFW]

Which route is that? I was speaking of the walk from a currently non-existent building (One Victory Park) to the south side of the Woodall Rogers. I measured it on Mapmyrun.com. Measuring all the way to On The Border makes for a 4/10 mile walk. If you did that in 5 minutes, you might be in the wrong line of work (maybe Olympic sprinter, messenger service...)

I walked today from On The Border to One Victory Park in 5 minutes. I was walking at my normal pace which means I get passed occasional by a lady in heals during the business day. That put the walk time from One Victory Park to the south side of Woodall Rogers at right about 3 minutes. It took about 3 minutes and 15 or 30 seconds to go from On The Border to the House (in Victory), where a crew seemed to be working pretty hard today. The time from the downtown to The House was very short.

My seconds are a bit fuzzy, because I was using my phone but I did wait until the phone flipped to 2:28pm to start my walk. A beautiful fall day in Texas to take the train downtown... mid 70s, sunny, and low humidity. Didn't take too many photos on my walk but I took a few. They were really going to town on the House of Blues building.

Jason

[houstonfella]

Houston already has great hotels: St. Regis, Hotel Icon, Four Seasons, Alden, Houstonian ... and the list goes on. So, there's no W Hotel here. Guess tourists will have to rough it at the Hotel Icon, St. Regis or La Colombe d'or.

I think Dallas posters to this forum are saying "look what Dallas is building. We are big and rich." Well, guess what? Houston is bigger and richer. Houston's Uptown blows away Dallas' Victory. Face it, Uptown Houston has many, many highrises, both residential and office towers. Post Oak Boulevard is well, Post Oak Boulevard. There is no equal in Texas. Houston's downtown blows away Dallas' vacant downtown. Let's not forget all the highrises under construction in the city, on the Bay, the beach and the lakes that Houston's metropolitan area is fortunate enough to have. By the way, those new cruise terminals are going to put Houston on the map for sailing the high seas.

Speaking of downtown Houston's CBC occupancy rate, this article puts it close to 90% leased. Check it out.

HBJ

[Dallascaper]

Pardon this interruption, as I wish to de-lurk to make a comment.

I think Dallas posters to this forum are saying "look what Dallas is building. We are big and rich." Well, guess what? Houston is bigger and richer.

Well, Kolkata is bigger than Dallas too, but that doesn't mean I want to live there. Posts like yours, houstonfella, make me wonder why this forum exists. The top the the forum states, "Respectful discussions only. My-city-is-better-than-your-city flame wars are not permitted on HAIF. "He started it" is not a valid excuse."

I assume that this means that this forum is for posting things that are going on in Dallas. Yet, one can't post any remark about Dallas without some Houstonite taking offence, hijacking the thread and generally going off the deep end. I am aware that some claim it is in all good fun, but the hostility displayed toward Dallas, and the obsession to prove Dallas posters wrong clearly masks other problems.

Oh my god, Dallas has a new tower? Then Houston must have FIVE! And a boat too!

What pretty pictures of Dallas and such clear skies. Oh my god, Houston has pretty pictures too, here let me hijack this thread with my smog-free Houston photos! Thanks, Gary, the great defender of Houston.

And yes, everyone knows that Houston is America's fourth largest city. Let us know when you overtake NYC and then you will have something worth bragging about. Until then, please refrain from the

[VicMan]

I cannot judge the two projects until I see them completed

One edge that Dallas' Victory project has over the Pavilions: Residential space

[Willy1]

Well, so much for interesting reading. Looks like it's time to close yet another Dallas-related thread because no one can even discuss Dallas-related subjects in HAIF without it turning into a 5th grade "my dad can beat up your dad" level discussion.

Houston is the 4th largest city in America - so what. (Chicago, LA, and NYC all dwarf Houston and Dallas)

Dallas-Fort Worth Metro is the largest metro in the state - so what.

Dallas Victory Project is huge and impressive - so what.

Houston's Downtown has higher occupancy rates than Dallas' - so what.

Dallas is a more famous city than Houston internationally - so what.

Houston and Dallas both have millionaire and billionaires - unless you're one of them, so what.

Houston is close to the Gulf (as if that's worth bragging about - yuck) - so what.

Dallas has a big Trinity River Project on the way (the Trinity is gross too) - so what.

Houston has more skyscrapers than Dallas - so what.

Dallas has many things that blow away what Houston has - Houstonites, learn to deal with it.

Houston has many things that blow away what Dallas has - Dallasites, learn to deal with it.

I'm sure I could go on and on, but I've decided to stop so that the hostile replies can begin and the HAIF moderators can go ahead and close this thread.

[Coaster]

Willy really needs some help. That was the biggest load of nothing I've ever read on this forum. Are things really THAT boring in Dallas these days?

[Willy1]

Actually, Coster... (since you decided to address me directly)

My post at least made a point - that this thread has desolved into yet another "lowest common denominator" discussion, amounting to nothing but Houstonite HAIFers trying to put down Dallas every chance possible. With that, thank you for proving my point with your really intelligent and insightful personal attack. You obviously have a bookcase full of debate trophies somewhere.

And just so you know, posts like yours make it seem like Houston forum members are so filled with hatred for Dallas/Dallasites that they can't deal with the idea of anyone actually posting anything positive about Dallas. Which sort of leaves the impression that Houstonites suffer from some sort of serious inferiority complex, which has been discussed many times on HAIF. I've heard of penis envy... but Dallas envy seems to be running wild here in HAIF. (I can't wait to hear the rebutals to that one - which, of course, will further reinforce my point.) Like someone else said, why even have a DFW thread in HAIF if the only purpose for it is to bash Dallas and Dallasites? Unless, of course, that really is the whole reason for this thread in the first place...

Anyway, since you decided not to actually add anything to this thread, and instead decided to post a personal insult with my name on it, I'd like to return the favor by pointing out that actually YOUR post is the one that is the "biggest load of nothing". The only point you managed to make was that I need help... and maybe I do since I'm replying to you! I suspect that you were unable to articulate anything intelligent because you were so flustered because a few of the items on my "so what" list actually pointed out the fact Dallas has the upper hand on Houston in a few categories.

I was trying to point out that the "mine is bigger" discussion has become stupid in an attempt to bring the topic back on track. But, apparently that doesn't work in here. So, like they say, "When in Rome (or in this case Houston), do as the Houstonites do"... So, here goes my attempt to insult both Coaster and Houston...

Houston is more boring than Dallas and my mom can whip your mom's butt, Coaster.

LOL.... gotta run to therapy now.

PS - in case anyone is wondering, this is all in good fun and I'm in NO WAY serious with this post. So, Coaster, please don't take this personally...

[TheNiche]

Actually, Coster... (since you decided to address me directly)

My post at least made a point - that this thread has desolved into yet another "lowest common denominator" discussion, amounting to nothing but Houstonite HAIFers trying to put down Dallas every chance possible. With that, thank you for proving my point with your really intelligent and insightful personal attack. You obviously have a bookcase full of debate trophies somewhere.

And just so you know, posts like yours make it seem like Houston forum members are so filled with hatred for Dallas/Dallasites that they can't deal with the idea of anyone actually posting anything positive about Dallas. Which sort of leaves the impression that Houstonites suffer from some sort of serious inferiority complex, which has been discussed many times on HAIF. I've heard of penis envy... but Dallas envy seems to be running wild here in HAIF. (I can't wait to hear the rebutals to that one - which, of course, will further reinforce my point.) Like someone else said, why even have a DFW thread in HAIF if the only purpose for it is to bash Dallas and Dallasites? Unless, of course, that really is the whole reason for this thread in the first place...

Anyway, since you decided not to actually add anything to this thread, and instead decided to post a personal insult with my name on it, I'd like to return the favor by pointing out that actually YOUR post is the one that is the "biggest load of nothing". The only point you managed to make was that I need help... and maybe I do since I'm replying to you! I suspect that you were unable to articulate anything intelligent because you were so flustered because a few of the items on my "so what" list actually pointed out the fact Dallas has the upper hand on Houston in a few categories.

I was trying to point out that the "mine is bigger" discussion has become stupid in an attempt to bring the topic back on track. But, apparently that doesn't work in here. So, like they say, "When in Rome (or in this case Houston), do as the Houstonites do"... So, here goes my attempt to insult both Coaster and Houston...

Houston is more boring than Dallas and my mom can whip your mom's butt, Coaster.

LOL.... gotta run to therapy now.

PS - in case anyone is wondering, this is all in good fun and I'm in NO WAY serious with this post. So, Coaster, please don't take this personally...

I realize that much of your post was in jest, but it is interesting to point out that the vote is still fairly strong that Victory is a "hotter" project than Pavilions. So unless this Chicago-based forum about Houston has been overrun with insecure Dallasites... ...I think that it'd be safe to say that the instigators are a vocal minority.

EDIT: By the way, your city does have a bigger dick than my city. But we've already covered that. You've also got prostate problems. And I suppose that given the shape of our freeway systems, Houston would be the a*** and Austin would be the v***** in our hermaprhoditic state. Not to be left out, San Antonio can be a massive genital wart. There, is everybody happy?

[Coaster]

Well good, Willy. I'm glad you're getting the therapy you need. Anyone who has nothing better to do with his time than to write a 400 word post where he himself admits that the comparison of Houston and Dallas is a total waste of time, needs therapy badly.

And don't worry, I never take any of your posts seriously. However, it is a form of light entertainment watching you sad Dallasonians constantly coming down to HAIF to tell Houstonites how envious they are - when it is people like YOU that can't seem to get Houston out of your system. (131 posts are the proof)

Now give us another 300 words about how you are able to rise above the LCD.

[JasonDFW]

Well good, Willy. I'm glad you're getting the therapy you need. Anyone who has nothing better to do with his time than to write a 400 word post where he himself admits that the comparison of Houston and Dallas is a total waste of time, needs therapy badly.

And don't worry, I never take any of your posts seriously. However, it is a form of light entertainment watching you sad Dallasonians constantly coming down to HAIF to tell Houstonites how envious they are - when it is people like YOU that can't seem to get Houston out of your system. (131 posts are the proof)

Now give us another 300 words about how you are able to rise above the LCD.

I have a particular interest in both Willy's comments and the reactions to his comments (like this one) because I know that Willy is not a Dallasite and have seen his comments in other forums. The combination of a fairly unbiased viewpoint and the reaction to it is pretty interesting.

Jason

[Coaster]

If Willy and Jason are unbiased, so is Fox News.

[dalparadise]

I'm an unashamed Houston booster and occasional Dallas detractor. I found Willy's "who cares" post to be pretty much objective, albeit lacking in any real substance. I agree with his assessments.