Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[713 To 214]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...1.1dae50ac.html

Hillwood unveils tower plans

43-story building will be area's tallest since Cityplace in 1988

09:37 AM CDT on Thursday, May 11, 2006

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

After months of speculation, developer Hillwood confirmed Wednesday that it will build a 43-story tower in its Victory project near downtown Dallas.

Work on the building is already under way at Olive Street and Victory Avenue near Stemmons Freeway.

The Victory Tower will contain a 120-room Mandarin Oriental Hotel, 90 condominiums, office and retail space.

The Victory Tower will contain a 120-room Mandarin Oriental Hotel, 90 condominiums, 275,000 square feet of office space and lower-level retail.

Designed by noted architect Kohn Pedersen Fox, the tower is being constructed just west of the new W Dallas Victory Hotel and Residences and will open in 2009.

"The entry of Mandarin Oriental, best known for its unsurpassed properties in cities like Hong Kong, London and New York City, will raise the bar for hospitality and luxury living in this region," Hillwood chairman Ross Perot Jr. said in a news release.

Condominiums in the building will be among the most expensive offered in Dallas

[TexasStar]

Another rendering of the 650' Victory Tower

[Gary]

I think this thread should be broadened a little where Houston is concerned.

With the just anounced "Park Tower", Houston is on it's way to making something happen that's BIG. What's more, is that this is actually happening in DT and will be close to the pavillions when complete.

This could be a huge deal for DT Houston, adding almost 1000 more people and will surely spark more building around the new park. Another thing is the fact that DT Houston has room to grow to it's East which means great things (hopefully) in the years to come.

It's been a banner week for Houston with all of the projects being anounced, but I believe this new 37 story apartment is the beinning of something very good. Oh yeah, did I mention it's Downtown.

[Willy1]

I think this thread should be broadened a little where Houston is concerned.

With the just anounced "Park Tower", Houston is on it's way to making something happen that's BIG. What's more, is that this is actually happening in DT and will be close to the pavillions when complete.

This could be a huge deal for DT Houston, adding almost 1000 more people and will surely spark more building around the new park. Another thing is the fact that DT Houston has room to grow to it's East which means great things (hopefully) in the years to come.

It's been a banner week for Houston with all of the projects being anounced, but I believe this new 37 story apartment is the beinning of something very good. Oh yeah, did I mention it's Downtown.

This is the DFW sub-thread... why would it have to be all about Houston when it's supposed to be about Dallas-Fort Worth topics? Although, I like hearing what similar projects are going on in Houston in comparison to DFW.

[Gary]

This is the DFW sub-thread... why would it have to be all about Houston when it's supposed to be about Dallas-Fort Worth topics? Although, I like hearing what similar projects are going on in Houston in comparison to DFW.

Maybe I'm crazy but the title to this thread is.. "Dallas Victory project VS Houston Pavillions". Soooo, I think I'm within the parameters of the intended question posed. If I'm not mistaken, this thread was intended for both cities to vote & comment on. Right???

My point was that Dallas seems to be getting a lot of hype for Victory, while Houston is getting very little for a project that when finished could be bigger, and imo better with it being in the CBD.

I was in no way trying to knock Victory, I saw it two weeks ago and it's very cool, I just think that in the long run Houston's CBD will probably be rockin when this is all said and done. In other words I'm not trying to start a war, nor am I trying to hijack the DFW subforum.

[SpaceCity]

Gary,

I think the new 37 story tower will be great too. But it is just one building in downtown Houston.

Victory is at least 8 related buildings built on the outskirts of downtown Dallas that combine residential, retail, office, entertainment, and transit.

That new 37 story Park Tower may be more appropriately compared to Dallas' Mercentile [sic] Complex / Atmos Energy Buildings in downtown Dallas. They're both in downtown, and both involve new construction.

I don't think that comparing non-related individual downtown Houston buildings vs. one urban development of several related buildings on the outskirts of downtown is a fair comparison.

Urban developments that consist of several buildings that combine retail, office and residential construction, with a rail line can be more easily compared. For that reason, Houston Pavillions vs. Victory Park is an appropriate comparison. Otherwise, this could turn into Victory Park vs. Downtown Houston. And that's not a fair comparison at all.

[RedScare]

As a pedestrian standing on the street, do I look at Victory and say, "Wow! Look at that combined development."? Do I look at the eastside of Downtown Houston and say, "This WOULD have been cool, if one developer had done it."?

Victory - Basketball arena

Eastside - Basketball arena

Victory - 2 acre park

Eastside - 12 acre park

Victory - 2 hotels, 371 rooms

Eastside - 2 hotels, 1,604 rooms

Victory - 3 condos, 334 units

Eastside - 3 condos/apartments, 534 units

Victory - 3 office towers, 795,00 sf

Eastside - 2 office towers, 781,000 sf

Victory - 0 convention centers

Eastside - 1 convention center

Victory - 155,000 sf retail

Eastside - 550,000 sf retail

Victory is an impressive development of an unusable brownfield. Taking nothing away from Victory, Houston Downtown Eastside is being resurrected from the dead by the construction of hotels, an arena, residential, office, retail, a park, and a convention center, all within an 80 acre area, similar to Victory's 75 acres. The only unfair comparison is the fact that Victory has a unified marketing team promoting it, while the Eastside is a collection of developers trying to capitalize on the City of Houston's investment in the area.

Hardy Yards is a smaller parcel, separated from Downtown by a bayou and a freeway. It is more comparable to Industrial Blvd. than Victory. The fact is, as far as upscale entertainment and tourism, Houstonians will be going to the Eastside and Pavillions, while Dallasites will head to Victory.

Seems like a fair comparison to me.

[rantanamo]

So you're going to selectively choose a side of town vs a purpose built development? I'd imagine the main area of downtown Dallas is also kicking Victory's butt in measureables.

The fact is, as far as upscale entertainment and tourism, Houstonians will be going to the Eastside and Pavillions, while Dallasites will head to Victory

.

Victory and Lower McKinney and West Village/Cityplace and the eastern Arts District.

[RedScare]

Victory and Lower McKinney and West Village/Cityplace and the eastern Arts District.

If one could park his car and walk to all of these areas, I would agree. In Victory's case, I would think West End would be more accessible by foot than McKinney and Cityplace.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

Seems like a fair comparison to me.

I along with other people see your comparison Red. You have made it really clear. I still don't know why some are having problems seeing it, maybe they're just trying too hard.......thanks good stuff

[RedScare]

I along with other people see your comparison Red. You have made it really clear. I still don't know why some are having problems seeing it, maybe they're just trying too hard.......thanks good stuff

I think some may see the comparison as some sort of attack on Victory. It is not. It is merely an expansion of the discussion from simple building to building talk to the actual effect of the buildings on the people who will someday use them. Too much of architecture discussion focuses only on the nuances of the building, and not on their use by the people who they are intended to attract.

I find the evolvement of the strictly zoned and controlled Victory project, with one man (Ross Perot, Jr.) at the controls, versus the haphazard patchwork that the Houston approach to things brings, to be very interesting too. I look forward to comparing these two areas when some of the buildings are actually built and in use. Will Victory be too exclusive for ordinary people? Will Houston's park actually bring people out to use it? Will both just be a playground for the idle rich and tourist/conventioneer? Will visitors venture from Victory to West End? Will visitors venture from the park and HP into the rest of Downtown Houston?

I think it will be fun to watch...and ponder.

[tamtagon]

If one could park his car and walk to all of these areas, I would agree. In Victory's case, I would think West End would be more accessible by foot than McKinney and Cityplace.

An interesting twist to the compare/contrast scenerio would include rail accessiblity.

[Dallasboi]

Of Course you could walk to lower Mckinney from victory. It's actually a 5 min walk. And also...west village is connected to lower McKinney..........I've only been living in Dallas all of my life and I work right in between victory an lower mcKinney in the Harwood Development (jones Day),so trust me when I say i'ts walkable if the weather permits.

[Gary]

Gary,

I think the new 37 story tower will be great too. But it is just one building in downtown Houston.

Victory is at least 8 related buildings built on the outskirts of downtown Dallas that combine residential, retail, office, entertainment, and transit.

That new 37 story Park Tower may be more appropriately compared to Dallas' Mercentile [sic] Complex / Atmos Energy Buildings in downtown Dallas. They're both in downtown, and both involve new construction.

I don't think that comparing non-related individual downtown Houston buildings vs. one urban development of several related buildings on the outskirts of downtown is a fair comparison.

Urban developments that consist of several buildings that combine retail, office and residential construction, with a rail line can be more easily compared. For that reason, Houston Pavillions vs. Victory Park is an appropriate comparison. Otherwise, this could turn into Victory Park vs. Downtown Houston. And that's not a fair comparison at all.

Space city,

your missing what I'm saying. My point was that with the combination of the Pavillions, the new park, Toyota center, GRB and it's expansion, the Hilton Americas, the new 37 story tower, etc etc, and the fact that it is actually downtown, should be a huge boon to this area. The East side has been undergoing a metamorphosis for a while now and seems to be really picking up steam.

As far as Victory is concerned I mean no animosity, however I have an issue with it not actually being in the CBD.

There's just something about what's happening on the East side of DT Houston that smells right to me. Imo, there's just something about urbanism among the canyons of highrise density that get's to a guy, I don't know maybe it's just me.

Again imo, Houston is taking much bigger steps now in making the East side a great place to be, at least for guy's with my taste.

[RedScare]

Of Course you could walk to lower Mckinney from victory. It's actually a 5 min walk. And also...west village is connected to lower McKinney

Just out of curiosity, Dallasboi, have you ever walked from AAC to McKinney, or seen others do it? It doesn't look too far on mapquest. What would be the preferred route...east on Wichita, then south on Ackard...or some other route? And what streets actually comprise West Village? I have heard that term used, but I don't know where it is. It's been awhile since I have been in those areas, so I am kind of weak at comparing the mapquest view with feet on the ground.

An interesting twist to the compare/contrast scenerio would include rail accessiblity.

I think that is a good "compare" to both sites. I know DART/TRE is just a special events stop currently, but once a few of these towers and retail outlets open, I would bet that service becomes regular. And that could only help its popularity.

[slfunk]

Just out of curiosity, Dallasboi, have you ever walked from AAC to McKinney, or seen others do it? ...... I know DART/TRE is just a special events stop currently, but once a few of these towers and retail outlets open, I would bet that service becomes regular. And that could only help its popularity.

I take this way home sometimes from the gym in downtown. I'll go through Victory up Wichita and then onto Cedar Springs past the Cresent heading into uptown. I have been caught by a Mavs or Stars game taking place. People are walking to the arena from the parking lots in the West End, from uptown along Wichita, and I have even seen very few people walking down McKinney Ave by the Cresent in Sports gear at the same time. So people do do it, and believe it will only be more so as more stuff opens in Victory making it become a major destination.

I know DART/TRE is just a special events stop currently, but once a few of these towers and retail outlets open, I would bet that service becomes regular. And that could only help its popularity.

That stop is on an event only basis right now. It is also the first stop along the new Orange and Green lines of DART. We know we have the financing approved from the Fed's for this DART expansion, just not sure when they will start. Some people speculate that have already started, but its hard to tell if is actual work on the rail lines or utilities. I am guessing the first extension of the rail line and the opening of the Mandarian Hotel will be about the same time. I would also suspect that you are right that the more popular this area becomes the more frequent service there will be. It would only help the restuarants in West End etc. Have people shop in Victory and once they are broke and worn out they grab a train and go eat at Friday's in the West End because they could not afford Nine or drinks at the Ghost Bar.

[Willy1]

Maybe I'm crazy but the title to this thread is.. "Dallas Victory project VS Houston Pavillions". Soooo, I think I'm within the parameters of the intended question posed. If I'm not mistaken, this thread was intended for both cities to vote & comment on. Right???

My point was that Dallas seems to be getting a lot of hype for Victory, while Houston is getting very little for a project that when finished could be bigger, and imo better with it being in the CBD.

I was in no way trying to knock Victory, I saw it two weeks ago and it's very cool, I just think that in the long run Houston's CBD will probably be rockin when this is all said and done. In other words I'm not trying to start a war, nor am I trying to hijack the DFW subforum.

My apologies... I wasn't trying to insight a flame war... Just curious why the DFW sub-forum is so Houston-oriented. But, I do see your point... and I should have taken a second to re-read my post... It came out the wrong way. Just wanted everyone to know I wasn't trying to knock Gary.... Sorry Gary!

[houstonfella]

The best news for Dallas and for Houston is that both cities are happening. Fortunately, it isn't one or the other. It is Texas' cities vs. other American cities. We are totally winning. Let's not leave out Austin and San Antonio either.

[Highway6]

The best news for Dallas and for Houston is that both cities are happening. Fortunately, it isn't one or the other. It is Texas' cities vs. other American cities. We are totally winning. Let's not leave out Austin and San Antonio either.

This is all so kumbaya sounding. We all get blue ribbons for competing.

I know an all out flame war isn't what people want on here and I;m not trying to start one... but i don't think it's wrong to pick sides.

Screw austin, san antone and dallas. We Houstonians want our city to grow bigger and better than the others... we should be disapointed if it doesn't and not ashamed if it does.

I get tired of these generic happy happy joy joy statements.

[rantanamo]

If one could park his car and walk to all of these areas, I would agree. In Victory's case, I would think West End would be more accessible by foot than McKinney and Cityplace.

How about parking further up the line in Plano or Richardson, Riding the rail to the West Village. Trolleying down McKinney or to the Arts District. Walk to the rail a couple of blocks away. Ride to the Main St Area. Hang out. Then ride to the West End. Walk to Victory, or even rail to Victory when that rail is more open.

I still don't see a comparison. If you want to compare Victory to something, you don't compare it to a side of town. I wouldn't compare it to the main area of downtown Dallas, even though within a similar area there are more units under reno/construction. I compare Victory to places like Cityplace West, That damned village in Glendale, AZ around their stadiums, Atlantic Station in Atlanta or perhaps Pavillions. If you want to compare that area of downtown Houston, I'd probably say the convention center/South Lamar area of Dallas, which is in its very early stages of seeing development.

Is it better comparing the West Village/Cityplace West masterplan with Victory or Main St?? All three are similarly sized areas, but two are masterplanned and purpose built.

and for misconceptions sake on this board:

Closeness of Victory and the West End(Big pic, so just copy the link at your own leisure) This is The House by Starck site

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9688/victory2copy9at.jpg

Studying renderings, Pavillions seems to a better size match for the Mercantile Complex, which is in the heart of downtown Dallas.

[Gary]

My apologies... I wasn't trying to insight a flame war... Just curious why the DFW sub-forum is so Houston-oriented. But, I do see your point... and I should have taken a second to re-read my post... It came out the wrong way. Just wanted everyone to know I wasn't trying to knock Gary.... Sorry Gary!

No problem.

How about parking further up the line in Plano or Richardson, Riding the rail to the West Village. Trolleying down McKinney or to the Arts District. Walk to the rail a couple of blocks away. Ride to the Main St Area. Hang out. Then ride to the West End. Walk to Victory, or even rail to Victory when that rail is more open.

I still don't see a comparison. If you want to compare Victory to something, you don't compare it to a side of town. I wouldn't compare it to the main area of downtown Dallas, even though within a similar area there are more units under reno/construction. I compare Victory to places like Cityplace West, That damned village in Glendale, AZ around their stadiums, Atlantic Station in Atlanta or perhaps Pavillions. If you want to compare that area of downtown Houston, I'd probably say the convention center/South Lamar area of Dallas, which is in its very early stages of seeing development.

Is it better comparing the West Village/Cityplace West masterplan with Victory or Main St?? All three are similarly sized areas, but two are masterplanned and purpose built.

and for misconceptions sake on this board:

Closeness of Victory and the West End(Big pic, so just copy the link at your own leisure) This is The House by Starck site

Studying renderings, Pavillions seems to a better size match for the Mercantile Complex, which is in the heart of downtown Dallas.

I guess my reason for comparing the two, is what will hopefully happen in Downtown Houston. The Pavillions to me should be a catylyst for major development. As has been stated, the area of DT is starting to gain momentum, and with the new park and signature highrise, this could be big.

Just my two cents.

[RedScare]

If you want to compare Victory to something, you don't compare it to a side of town.

Closeness of Victory and the West End(Big pic, so just copy the link at your own leisure) This is The House by Starck site

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9688/victory2copy9at.jpg

I did.

There are numerous ways to compare and contrast anything. I COULD compare a Hummer to a Mini. You seem to prefer to only look at this from one angle. If it is the remediation angle, the comparisons would be Atlanta Station and Hardy Yards. If it is the single developer approach, one could compare Hardy Yards or BLVD Place.

I chose to look at the two areas from the point of view of a pedestrian oriented area, with a sports arena as its anchor. Did I violate some rule for observing these developments from a different perspective? I also do not understand the photo showing West End mere feet away from Victory. Is Victory close to Downtown or not? If it is close, why not compare it to HP/Toyota? If it is NOT close, why not compare it anyway?

HP may be comparable in size to Mercantile. But, the thread was started to compare HP AND Toyota Center and the area in between to Victory. If you do not wish to participate in the discussion, feel free to visit another thread. But, the similarities are there, even if I am treading awfully close to sacred ground.

[Willy1]

The best news for Dallas and for Houston is that both cities are happening. Fortunately, it isn't one or the other. It is Texas' cities vs. other American cities. We are totally winning. Let's not leave out Austin and San Antonio either.

I totally agree. Houston, SA, Dallas, Austin, and Fort Worth are all now among the nations 20 largest cities. And of those 5 cities, Houston, SA, Dallas, and Fort Worth are all really booming in one way or another. Austin is still growing, but not at nearly the rate it did in the 90's. Austin even saw a loss in population in the early part of this decade. But, it still contiues to grow, even if it's at a slower pace than previously.

Anyway you look at it - Texas is Booming!

[houstonfella]

I totally agree. Houston, SA, Dallas, Austin, and Fort Worth are all now among the nations 20 largest cities. And of those 5 cities, Houston, SA, Dallas, and Fort Worth are all really booming in one way or another. Austin is still growing, but not at nearly the rate it did in the 90's. Austin even saw a loss in population in the early part of this decade. But, it still contiues to grow, even if it's at a slower pace than previously.

Anyway you look at it - Texas is Booming!

Thanks Willy1. I, for a minute, thought I was alone in thinking that Texas rules, not individual cities within the Lone Star State. Anyhow, I am happy and look forward to all our new construction projects. Gives us all a little more to brag about ... ya know ... to New Yorkers etc.

[Mister X]

Red's comparison seems fair to me. He is comparing 80 acres in Houston to 75 acres in Dallas that, within the specific area, will offer similar facilities and venues.

To me, Victory looks impressive, but a bit isolated. It is barely connected to the far northwestern edge of downtown D. People working in the heart of downtown or on the east or south side of downtown will probably not want to make the hike on foot, especially in 100 degree summers. While there is no doubt that Victory will be a major draw, it's hard to imagine it becoming the new epicenter of pedestrian Dallas. It seems like the fastest and most convienient way to get to Victory will be by car.

By comparison, with that magnificant 12 acre, tree covered park in the center, and it's easy proximity to ALL of downtown, including 2 major league sports stadiums, a convention center, the theatre district, HP, and now this new residential tower, E Hou could be the new Times Square of Texas. It's already half way there, all they need to do is connect the dots and add some tacky electric billboards. Location is everything.

I think the organic nature of eastside Hou will also ultimately be a plus. It will look like it came together over time and necessity rather than looking and feeling like an artificial town center or souless business venture that appeared overnight, like something on the Vegas strip. Eastside could develop a real time tested and permanent neighborhood feel to it if done right.

[brijonmang]

Thanks Willy1. I, for a minute, thought I was alone in thinking that Texas rules, not individual cities within the Lone Star State. Anyhow, I am happy and look forward to all our new construction projects. Gives us all a little more to brag about ... ya know ... to New Yorkers etc.

Hey im with you on this as well...the more that is going on in Texas, the better it is for everyone. Heck, the more that is going on in the U.S., the better it is for EVERYONE. But competition only makes everyone strive for more.

[nmainguy]

Now we all know that Houston and Dallas are each supposed to be getting new dowtown jewels. Dallas Victory Project and Houston's still hoping to breaking ground w/ the Houston Pavilions Project in the upcoming months (fingers crossed!)

Dallas is seeing a surge of excitement with the development of the Victory Center with the Victory Hotel to rise along with the retail that's gonnna occur in that little section where Victory Plaza will be.

Houston's Pavilion Project is something that is much needed downtown which could change the site of downtown Houston forever. The Houston Pavilions would anchor Main Street Square and connect to the Houston Center and Hilton America's throughout to Toyota center. It is also supposed to have high rise condo's rise above the facility.

Even though HP may not be quite as fancy as Dallas's Victory (seeing that Dallas is getting large plasma screens and all). the developments are basically similar and i think they will pretty much serve the same purpose to each of the downtowns. What do you all think? Which one will be hotter and have the most impact or influence on downtown?

Above^^^is the original post that started this thread. Since HP is DT, it would seem to be the one with the most impact. But I can't compare the two as they are in no way similar in scale and location. The obvious advantage to HP is that it IS DT, on a regularly scheduled LRT line-not an event driven schedule, is within walking distance of Toyota and MMP, the new park and accessable to most of DT.

My 2 cents.

[Trae]

I totally agree. Houston, SA, Dallas, Austin, and Fort Worth are all now among the nations 20 largest cities. And of those 5 cities, Houston, SA, Dallas, and Fort Worth are all really booming in one way or another. Austin is still growing, but not at nearly the rate it did in the 90's. Austin even saw a loss in population in the early part of this decade. But, it still contiues to grow, even if it's at a slower pace than previously.

Anyway you look at it - Texas is Booming!

Austin is growing faster than SA. Numbers and percentage wise.

[houstonfella]

And the new Park Tower and Houston Pavilions is close enough to the theater district as well. Take a short stroll to dinner and walk over to an opera. If this plays out, hopefully, Houston's downtown will be very inviting.

[slfunk]

The obvious advantage to HP is that it IS DT, on a regularly scheduled LRT line-not an event driven schedule,

Guess I am being picky here, but I just wanted to clarify. You are right that the LRT schedule at Victory is on an event driven schedule currently. That is about to change. DART went ahead and built this extension ahead of schedule because of the Mavs/Stars game and knowing the developments coming up. They built this first station of the new green-orange lines before the Fed's gave DART the money to move ahead with the expansion. DART is toying with providing a regular scheduled train from the West End Station once the W, Terrace, and Victory Plaza opens. This station will be part of a regularly scheduled LRT in about 2-3 years when the first leg of the Orange and Green lines are built. I believe they will open in late 2008 or mid 2009. This will be a second alignment through downtown and connect Fair Park, Deep Ellum, Downtown, Victory, and the Red-Blue lines. By then the next phase of Victory will open doubling its current amount of development with the Mandarian Hotel, Cirque, Victory Office buildings, and the House by Starck.