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Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development


scarface

Dallas Victory Project VS Houston Pavilions  

117 members have voted

  1. 1. which will be hotter

    • Dallas Victory
      60
    • Houston Pavilions
      57


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I know this will probably start a flame war, but I have to correct a few misleading statements. American Airlines Center is .6 miles from West End Marketplace, which could hardly be called the heart of Downtown Dallas. That may be walking distance, but a half mile is still a hike, not a stroll, about 8 city blocks.

The panoramic shot showing Reunion just a hop, skip and a jump away? Try one and a half miles. For you Houstonians, walking from the Front Porch on West Gray to Toyota Center is closer, at 1.2 miles.

Now, if you guys think 1.5 miles is nothing, forgive me. But, for most Texas residents, walking one and a half miles through Downtown Dallas is a mite scary, so don't make it sound like we're walking across the street.

Oh, and pedestrian friendly elevated freeways? Yeah, we got the Pierce Elevated and the 59 Elevated...tell us all about that pedestrian friendly. :lol:

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The 0.6 miles between the West End and the AACenter is a leisurely 10 minute walk for most people. That's not too bad. To get the most of the other downtown neighborhoods from Victory Park, the train is pretty convenient.

I really hope DART, the city and the McKinney Ave Transit Authority work out a plan to have trolleys/streetcars criss-cross the CBD making the Main Sreet Corridor much more accessible w/o a car or more than a 10 minute walk from a train station. Like, many the old buildings along Main Street are being rennovated, and that will be a really cool environment.

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i hate to shed some light on this but i was just in Dallas this past weekend and Victory is not a few feet from downtown. It might seem like that driving but walking, it's quite a distance. It's more like the distance the Musuem District in Houston is to downtown Houston where as when you drive, it seems close but its not enough to enhance Pedestrian Activity between the two centers. The Victory Development is at least a mile and 1/2 to two miles west of Downtown. That's quite a distance on foot, especially when you have to cross a freeway to get there.

Not sure where you were visiting or walking from. But "Dallas Alley" of the West End opens onto a small plaza where Hooters is and that is where Victory starts. 100 ft is the shortest mile and a half i have ever heard of, and the West end DART station to the Victory Dart station is maybe your 1/2 mile. Right there at Hooters a new Residential tower in Victory called the House will start construction in 2006 giving a complete walking environment filled with shops from the West End to the AAC. People (hundreds) already park in the West End and walk over to AAC through the construction area.

What exactly is the Victory Plaza? It looks like parking garages with video screens on them in the drawings. In my opinion, this portion of the development is unfortunate and really spoils the nice architecture of the AA Center.

I agree with other posters that these two developments are not similar in any way. The Pavillions could spur developments that would mushroom into a Victory-like development, if built.

I like the vision of Victory. Houston's Victory development happened about 30 years ago. We called ours Greenway Plaza. The retail portion never really took hold and none of the high end restaurants survived. The new Tony's is a notable exception. The office space has been very successful, though -- as are the highrise condos. I hope Victory fares better after 30 years.

Victory Plaza is flanked by two (5 story) office buildings with video screens facing the plaza. There are parking garages there but they are underground and already in use. The buildings are being built directly on top of them.

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Victory Plaza is flanked by two (5 story) office buildings with video screens facing the plaza. There are parking garages there but they are underground and already in use. The buildings are being built directly on top of them.

I hope they come out better than the drawings indicate. as shown, they ruin the procession to the AA Center, which is the root of this development in the first place.

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I hope they come out better than the drawings indicate. as shown, they ruin the procession to the AA Center, which is the root of this development in the first place.

This is just for the uninformed ....The Group of developers that are doing Victory Park Actually stated that they purposely adopted drastically different designs for each building of the development to create an enviroment that seems to have been developed over time, not just another sea of similar buildings like the previous developer that designed and built the AA Center and later pulled out.........I really like Victory Plaza.It kind of gives you a breath of Modern futuristic while exiting a older classical designed AA Center....Talk about "The best of Both worlds". :D

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This is just for the uninformed ....The Group of developers that are doing Victory Park Actually stated that they purposely adopted drastically different designs for each building of the development to create an enviroment that seems to have been developed over time, not just another sea of similar buildings like the previous developer that designed and built the AA Center and later pulled out.........I really like Victory Plaza.It kind of gives you a breath of Modern futuristic while exiting a older classical designed AA Center....Talk about "The best of Both worlds". :D

Oh, I certainly wasn't advocating everything being the same, ala Sugar Land Town Center. I just wish they had been more sympathetic to a very nice existing building.

Ugly is hardly the "best of both worlds".

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Oh, I certainly wasn't advocating everything being the same, ala Sugar Land Town Center. I just wish they had been more sympathetic to a very nice existing building.

Ugly is hardly the "best of both worlds".

Come see it in person....In May!!!!!....and then Pass your judgement..Thanks. :ph34r:

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Come see it in person....In May!!!!!....and then Pass your judgement..Thanks. :ph34r:

I should.

For the record, Victory Plaza is the only part of the development I don't like. To me it seems very short-sighted and cheesy. The rest is an urbanist's dream. Part of "the rest" is AA Center, which I consider the nicest new arena in the country. Victory Plaza seems to put a lot of that old Dallas queso on a dish that really didn't need it.

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i hate to shed some light on this but i was just in Dallas this past weekend and Victory is not a few feet from downtown. It might seem like that driving but walking, it's quite a distance. It's more like the distance the Musuem District in Houston is to downtown Houston where as when you drive, it seems close but its not enough to enhance Pedestrian Activity between the two centers. The Victory Development is at least a mile and 1/2 to two miles west of Downtown. That's quite a distance on foot, especially when you have to cross a freeway to get there.

It is basically downtown. I have done the walk to Victory, West End and then the courthouse. I would say 2 miles is a fetch.

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Victory, without any scientific measuring on my part, seems to be about a half mile from the West End, which is about four or five blocks away from the critical mass of DT development--office towers, hotels, etc. The latter is important because visitors who are staying at the Adam's Mark or AmeriSuites, for example, might be a bit put off by having to walk that extra half-mile past a freeway overpass and so forth. (In this, Houston Pavillions has a decided advantage)

Now, that's baby-poop to you or I but there is a bit of a disconnect to the outsider that will need to be filled in over time. I think it's the same dynamic that would be in play as Warehouse District/East End development in Houston continues to swell--it still won't feel even remotely like part of downtown Houston.

I also echo Dal's opinions on the affect on the AAC. Seems to block out the visual impact of the building's facade in a way that I don't think the developers/designers considered. You also know my opinion on the W Hotel's design in that I don't care for it. But I like the other aspects of the project, including the fact that much of the development isn't hindered by overbearing gargages or a complete disconnect from the streets.

In short, Victory would make for a nice starting point for nearby multi-use development in Houston's Midtown, but to compare it to something like the Pavillions doesn't really speak to either project properly, especially when you consider geography and immediate peripheral impact.

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Victory, without any scientific measuring on my part, seems to be about a half mile from the West End, which is about four or five blocks away from the critical mass of DT development--office towers, hotels, etc. The latter is important because visitors who are staying at the Adam's Mark or AmeriSuites, for example, might be a bit put off by having to walk that extra half-mile past a freeway overpass and so forth.

Actually, they can just take the train. "St Paul" and "Pearl" Street Stations are basically at doorsteps of the Adam's Mark. After a short 7-8 minute ride, the can get off at "Victory" Station, which is next to the AAC, and about a block from the "W."

Please See DART Light Rail Map

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Actually, they can just take the train. "St Paul" and "Pearl" Street Stations are basically at doorsteps of the Adam's Mark. After a short 7-8 minute ride, the can get off at "Victory" Station, which is next to the AAC, and about a block from the "W."

Please See DART Light Rail Map

That would be great except that there is no service to Victory Station except for "special events", which I assume means Mavs games.

It seems most days, your trip to Victory Station would be made by Da Feet. :lol::lol::lol:

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wow! i didn't realize how defensive some Dallasites can get on this forum! All because i said that the Victory Development didn't seem all that close to downtown Dallas.

I was in Dallas exploring quite a bit and i noticed that there is an entrance to the West End area underneath the Woodall Rodgers freeway that is led by arches (Love the way the arches light up at night BTW). I just didn't remember seeing the pedestrian friendly areas that were mentioned earlier. ( I'm not saying they're not there, but i don't remember seeing them!)

True, that part near West End is not that far from the Hooters, but i was really talking about the area closer to where the AA Center and W Hotel is ( which will be Victory Plaza) . That's apart of Uptown Dallas. And I don't care what anyone says but i viewed that area to be a little bit of a hike from the pedestrian core of downtown Dallas. It might not seem like it by car, but on foot, that's at least a 20-25 minute walk whether if its .5 miles, 1-1/2 miles or whatever you guys are claiming. Driving in a car is not the same. And Texasstar, i see you posted that pic, but things can appear different and closer together in a panoramic picture. If you look at some shots of Houston, Midtown looks like it could be a 5 minute walk from Downtown Houston, but we all know that's not the case

It's Just like when i was thinking of moving to Houston last year, i walked out of the 600 Jefferson Building in downtown Houston to my grandmother's who lives off Arbor Street in Midtown. I was surprised to find that it took me an over an hour to walk from the building downtown to that portion of midtown. Now when i ordinarily drive that route in a car, it only takes about 5 minutes between where she lives and that building, but walking is a whole nother story. My grandmother lives maybe about a mile to a mile and a half outside of dt Houston and i didn't see the AA center as all that much closer to its downtown.

Everybody seems to want to jump down my throat and all i did was made an observation.

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When fully built out , you will begin to see the immediate connection to the west end.It will be a very short stroll and even shorter with all of the developments and street retail due to come online shortly......I't's called patients! As of now there is really nothing there so the distance may seem longer. but it's coming.

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From the Guidelines for this sub-forum:

Respectful discussions only. Any "my city is better than your city" flamewars will be deleted without notice.

~ HAIF Moderators

Well, so much for that idea. I joined this forum for two reasons. To keep up with the great projects going up in Houston and to contribute to keeping like-minded Houstonians up-to-speed with the developments in DFW. But, obviously, that can't be done here without the obligatory city-bashing. Sad, but so predictable. I mean if you're consumed with so much white-hot hatred for all things Dallas, why not just avoid the DALLAS/FT.WORTH/DFW sub-forum? Makes too much sense? Or more likely, what better place to pick the fight you've been spoiling for anyway, huh? Got it.

Well, since I don't have time for that kind of childish foolishness, it's so-long and goodbye to HAIF.

See you on dallasmetropolis.com! B)

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Sorry, i don't mean to bring this topic up again but i wanted to put my 2 cents in. I agree with alot of others that these 2 projects are nothing alike but i do understand where scarface was going with this topic. He wanted to know which project would have the most impact on each downtown.

Although Victory is bigger and to a much broader scale, i'm going to have to cast my vote to Houston Pavilions because it will be in the heart of downtown Houston as to where Victory Plaza will be sort of situated off to the side a little bit outside of downtown Dallas.

And plus, downtown Houston already has had its head start with the development of the Toyota Center, Minute Maid Park, Ball Park lofts, and the Hilton Americas and to add to that, it will connect all four of these venues closer to the shops at Houston Center and quick access to the tunnels.

I think Dallas is picking up steam right now which is currently going at a faster rate than Houston. That;s why i made the comment earlier that Dallas is leaving Houston behind in terms of projects and development. But now that i think about it, thanks to dalparadise and MidtownCoog, Houston has already had its time in a similar manner with the Greenway Plaza development and things of that sort. Victory Plaza will be more of an asset to Uptown Dallas than downtown Dallas.

I think both projects will be great, i see Houston Pavilions having an effect on development on Main Street Square and the Toyota Centers and areas around. Dallas Victory will be more of a hang out "after party" type scene after Basketball games . Victory Plaza will also bring in plenty of tourists and attract business conventions.

I can't wait to see what both projects will bring but Houston Pavilions will definitely change the scene of downtown Houston forever. Just look at 16th Street Mall in Denver, Colorado!

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Although Victory is bigger and to a much broader scale, i'm going to have to cast my vote to Houston Pavilions because it will be in the heart of downtown Houston as to where Victory Plaza will be sort of situated off to the side a little bit outside of downtown Dallas.

If Victory works right, the development will have grown into an extention of the downtown environment. Phase II should begin "to open" late Spring/early Summer with the last projects completing in 2007, months after the NHL All-Star game. Phase II will provide the direct pedestrian backbone between The West End and the AACenter. Time will tell how the walk under the highway will be received. Since most of the space under the highway is public parking, the thoroughfare dead zone will be minimized if not relatively active; keeping the sidewalk clean, properly illuminated with a very visible police presence will make the distance acceptible for most. The train will complete the connection making Victory an addition to the downtown environment. Victory's swanky Uptown neighbors keep getting more numerous, too. In addition to the rising Ritz-Carlton, The Crescent folks intend to build a Canyon Ranch Resort/Spa tower. The Museum of Natural History will cozy into the immediate area, as well, but there's no firm timeline for that. It's speculated additional trolley routes will decrease the highway barrier - that's taking forever though. If downtown Dallas keeps growing, then by 2010, the highway barrier between the Central Business District and Uptown may be insignificant.

Rennovation of Dallas' Merchantile Bank complex seems to be similar in scale to the Pavillions. It seems there's a lot more riding on the Mercantile rennovation toward returning vitality to the historic core of downtown Dallas than Pavillion represents to Houston. The Merchantile has an excellent chance to be a very successful redevelopment, but as noted, it's a long walk to The West End.

What I really want to see happen is Houston becoming part of the Trinity Rail Express. The commuter train already runs between downtown Fort Worth and Dallas, but if downtown Houston becomes a destination, the whole concept of a convenient lifestyle without a car in Texas is made. For whatever reason a person choses one area, it would be so nice to step onto a train in Houston or Dallas or Fort Worth and step off the train in a different downtown later the same day. Everything is bigger in Texas, and the maxim needs to include the urban experience.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This thread is funny to read. Does anyone realize that the AAC is pretty much the northern end of Victory? The House and Terrace Condos are indeed across the street from the West End, not the freeway. Woodall Rodgers is not the border of the West End. There are actually several buildings, like Hooters that are actually north of Woodall Rodgers. They are considered downtown. They are literally 100 ft from The House which is part of Victory.

Agree on the Merchantile comment. That's more comparable to Pavillions. Victory is more like adding half of a downtown to downtown.

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Agree on the Merchantile comment. That's more comparable to Pavillions. Victory is more like adding half of a downtown to downtown.

Ya, a financial perspective will shed more light on the comparison. Both the Merchantile and Pavillion projects are in the $200 million developmental neighborhood. All totaled, Victory is a $3 Billion phased development: completed Phase I - AACenter, $400 million; under construction Phase II - $1 Billion; Phase III & IV - nothing concrete so far.

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  • 3 months later...

Sorry to dredge up an old topic (I hope I don't regret it later)...

But has anyone else observed that the Houston Pavilions project runs along Dallas Street, and the Dallas Victory Park project runs along Houston Street?

I think it is just a sign of how similar and interconnected the two cities are! We really must try to be learning from each other to make both cities better!

The competitive one-upmanship does nothing but divert our attention from advancing both Houston and Dallas.

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They started taking soil samples for "The House" by Starck and Yoo this week. This one should be going up soon.

img60550jx.jpg

This rendering shows "The House" (foreground) in relation to the rest of Victory. That's the W Hotel in the background, on the right. One Victory Tower is next to it, on the left. The rendering doesn't show the Cirque, which is already under construction. It would be further in the background, but to the right of the W.

housebystarck0071uo.jpg

Yet another rendering, looking South at The House, from the planned park near the "Terrace."

housebystarck0098to.jpg

rendering of "The House by Starck and Yoo's" terrace/patio/pool area

housebystarck0082sl.jpg

Here's a nice pano looking East at Victory.

victorytn19jq.jpg

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Wait, what's this Houston Pavilions project supposed to be? I haven't heard about it.

man you HAVE been gone for a while! < aka urbanlandscape> what rock did you climb out from under?

It's been brought up on dallasmetropolis.com

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I just saw the animation on the Victory Project and I was quite impressed with the fact that the giant monitors actually will move.

I would love to see such flash at the intersection of Westheimer and Post Oak. I say tear down that giant strip center on the Northeast corner of the intersection and replace it with something that is pedestrian friendly and has some flash to it.

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