Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[tierwestah]

The difference is the price. I don't think those places you listed are as pricey as Victory, plus it is on an entrance into a arena. If it were along a street, it would be different.

Say youngsta ! you sure seem to have a knowledge of this stuff to only be 15 or 16 years old? Are you top of your class?

[Trae]

I'm 16, but you ain't had to be a genius to know that.

Because Victory is on the entrance to an arena, on off nights, if people go into the plaza thing they would all be going one direction. No traffic flow! They would get to the end and turn back around.

[tierwestah]

I'm 16, but you ain't had to be a genius to know that.

Because Victory is on the entrance to an arena, on off nights, if people go into the plaza thing they would all be going one direction. No traffic flow! They would get to the end and turn back around.

Na broa! I ain't just talkin' bout your knowledge of Victory, i'm talkin' bout all your posts and knowlege on most topics on this board.

Oh well, i should've sent you pm for that. It's beside the topic. My bad.

Back to the topic.

Victory ROCKS, Pavilions needs to come on here!

[Trae]

Homeboy got knowledge.

[Houston19514]

Does anyone know the actual status of Victory Tower? I read somewhere that the current work in the hole is just for building the parking garage that will be attached to the Tower, and that the Tower construction had not started. That makes a lot of sense, because I cannot find a word about a Victory Tower groundbreaking anywhere on Victory's website. Their project calendar seems up-to-date and has pretty faithfully listed every major groundbreaking so I'm thinking they will surely post the groundbreaking of the largest building in the project.

Does anyone have any information (other than the DMN's columnist's clearly incorrect statement in an article earlier last year that the tower was under construction)?

[rantanamo]

all of the Victory ground breakings were announced last May. None have had the typical groundbreaking that you see with other buildings. They've all just started one day.

The Victory Tower construction may or may not be for just the garage, who knows. The garage will sit on the south end of the block. They are however placing footers throughout the site, so unless the building was redesigned they seem to be building the building.

If they were all going the same direction in Victory Plaza, wouldn't that actually be traffic flow? I think that's a misunderstanding of the design though. Its not a pass through space like the typical American sidewalk on a street in an entertainment district where people are club hopping. The plaza itself is supposed to be used almost like a park. Just needs its seats and fountains back once everything opens.

[Houston19514]

all of the Victory ground breakings were announced last May. None have had the typical groundbreaking that you see with other buildings. They've all just started one day.

They announced all the ground breakings last May??? I'm sorry but that makes no sense...

I'm not looking for a ceremonial shovel in the dirt. But if you go to the Victory Park website, click on "The Story" and then on "Timeline", you will see that they show dates of ground breakings for American Airlines Center, the W, The Terrace, Vista, Victory Plaza buildings, The House, (and oddly, none of them occurred in May of '06). It seems unlikely that they would show all of those but not show a groundbreaking for the largest, tallest building in the project. (And the timeline appears to be quite up to date. There is an entry as recent as January 18.)

[TexasStar]

I don't know, but it sure looks like they've started construction on the Mandarin.

If not, they sure know how to fake it.

[Houston19514]

I don't know, but it sure looks like they've started construction on the Mandarin.

If not, they sure know how to fake it.

It appears to me that the construction shown in that picture would be for the parking structure (which will also have retail space on the street level). At least according to the plans shown on Victory's website, the tower would be to the the north what is shown in that picture. I could easily be wrong on this, but I don't think I have seen ANY pictures of any construction activity on the north end of the site (where the Tower will be, along Olive Street). All of the pictures I have seen are shot at an angle excluding the north end of the site, and only getting that portion of the site basically across Victory Park Lane from the shorter, south portion of the W, and that area, of course, is where the parking garae is going, not the Tower.

[TexasStar]

It appears to me that the construction shown in that picture would be for the parking structure (which will also have retail space on the street level). At least according to the plans shown on Victory's website, the tower would be to the the north what is shown in that picture. I could easily be wrong on this, but I don't think I have seen ANY pictures of any construction activity on the north end of the site (where the Tower will be, along Olive Street). All of the pictures I have seen are shot at an angle excluding the north end of the site, and only getting that portion of the site basically across Victory Park Lane from the shorter, south portion of the W, and that area, of course, is where the parking garae is going, not the Tower.

Actually, it looks like you are correct.

It doesn't appear that work on the tower proper has not begun yet.

[Dallasboi]

It appears to me that the construction shown in that picture would be for the parking structure (which will also have retail space on the street level). At least according to the plans shown on Victory's website, the tower would be to the the north what is shown in that picture. I could easily be wrong on this, but I don't think I have seen ANY pictures of any construction activity on the north end of the site (where the Tower will be, along Olive Street). All of the pictures I have seen are shot at an angle excluding the north end of the site, and only getting that portion of the site basically across Victory Park Lane from the shorter, south portion of the W, and that area, of course, is where the parking garae is going, not the Tower

Well in all the pictures that I've seen the parking structure was connected to the building so it's all one structure.So if they start one part then they are starting the whole building.And just for the record what exactly are you pointing out?..Are you saying that you think that it's not going to be built or are you saying your having a hard time accepting the fact that the tallest structure said to be in Victory,the moment we've all been waiting for has actually broken ground and the fact that in 24 short months we will be unveiling one of the most important elements to a development that us dallasites have been waiting to brag on.....and that just dosent sit well with you?

[The Great Hizzy!]

This is too funny for words.

[rantanamo]

*SMH*

What I was trying to say in regards to the groundbreakings is that there was one announcement officially saying, buildings A,B,C, D, etc would be built, and it gave seasonal type vague start time periods. There was never some press release saying The House would break ground on December 18, for example. After it was underway(we actually do follow these things on dallasmetropolis, believe it or not) then you started seeing stuff about it and voila! it shows up on the website. This is in contrast to many of the individual buildings in Uptown that gave specific start dates and had ceremonies. If Victory Tower is underway, it has followed the course of the rest of Victory Park(except for the AAC) where there was no formal date announcement or groundbreaking ceremony. Just an article or two with some vague seasonal start period. For example:

Mandarin Hotel

To Beef Up Project

Outside of Dallas

By THADDEUS HERRICK

May 10, 2006; Page B12

A $3 billion mixed-use project on the outskirts of downtown Dallas will include the region's first Mandarin Oriental Hotel, in a deal expected to be announced today, providing the development with a big boost.

Victory Park, a 75-acre project spearheaded by Ross Perot Jr.'s Hillwood, is one of a few ambitious U.S. developments that seek to create large-scale urban neighborhoods from scratch. Another particularly notable example, with almost twice the acreage of Victory Park, is Atlantic Station, in Atlanta; it was co-developed by AIG Global Real Estate Investment Corp. and Jacoby Development Inc.

The Mandarin Oriental Dallas would be Victory Park's second major luxury hotel. A W Hotel and residences are set to open June 15. Construction on the Mandarin is expected to begin early next year. It is scheduled to open in 2009, with 120 rooms occupying the first 11 floors of the project's signature high-rise, a 43-floor building to be known as Victory Tower. An additional 90 residences on floors 23 to 43 will range in price from $850,000 to $6 million.

Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group, a unit of Mandarin Oriental International Ltd., is incorporated in Bermuda and owned in part by Jardine Matheson Group.

Mr. Perot said the Mandarin deal would mark a major milestone "in our endeavor to create Dallas' premier neighborhood." Though welcomed by Dallas's nearby central business district, Victory Park is nonetheless likely to compete with the city's traditional downtown.

The son of the former presidential candidate, Mr. Perot is building his project in the shadow of a new $420 million basketball and hockey arena. In addition to the W Hotel, owned by Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide Inc., two midrise residential buildings are to open in the fall, plus a retail and office plaza. The master plan calls for 12 million square feet of retail, residential and office space.

Write to Thaddeus Herrick at thaddeus.herrick@wsj.com

"Early Next Year" That's all I'm trying to say. If it has indeed begun its real construction or whether its just the garage, ground has been broken, yet nothing formal out there yet. Typical Victory stuff.

As for what they are building, who knows. As I said, it could be the garage. That could be all they build. That may be how this building is constructed. I dunno. But it is too funny for words. Constant searching for discretization of this project somehow. Just let them build. Let the announcements come out and we'll see what's going on. For all we know, the Mandarin Hotel has backed out.

[Houston19514]

As for what they are building, who knows. As I said, it could be the garage. That could be all they build. That may be how this building is constructed. I dunno. But it is too funny for words. Constant searching for discretization of this project somehow. Just let them build. Let the announcements come out and we'll see what's going on. For all we know, the Mandaring Hotel has backed out.

It is indeed quite too funny for words that a person cannot ask for a simple and factual update on a construction project without you and your ilk (Dallsboi pay attention here) taking it as some sort of nefarious attack on poor little Dallas and your hallowed and miraculous Victory Park.

There has been a lot of speculation and a good amount of just plain incorrect information (eg, DMN's statement last year that Victory Tower was under construction...) about this project. Excuse me for attempting to get to the bottom of it, so to speak.

[troyboy]

There has been a lot of speculation and a good amount of just plain incorrect information (eg, DMN's statement last year that Victory Tower was under construction...) about this project.

Sounds alot like the Houston Pavillions doesn't it??

The vast majority of the members of this and any other city forum are normal citizens. Few of us have any real inside information and I don't see many big-time commerical developers coming on these forums telling us what they're going to do and when they're going to do it. Most of the info we post is what we've read, seen, or heard..then add a huge dose of our own speculation and an even bigger dose of opinion.

So I wouldn't get bent out of shape if someone posts something that's not accurate. I've come to expect it...often.

[Houston19514]

Sounds alot like the Houston Pavillions doesn't it??

The vast majority of the members of this and any other city forum are normal citizens. Few of us have any real inside information and I don't see many big-time commerical developers coming on these forums telling us what they're going to do and when they're going to do it. Most of the info we post is what we've read, seen, or heard..then add a huge dose of our own speculation and an even bigger dose of opinion.

So I wouldn't get bent out of shape if someone posts something that's not accurate. I've come to expect it...often.

Nobody is getting bent out of shape about inaccurate information. I'm quite used to that, including, yes, in the Houston Pavilions thread. The only ones getting bent out of shape here (see eg., Rantanamo, Dallasboi) are doing so in response to my attempt to get accurate information. I guess some just prefer to live in a fantasy world...No incisive questions allowed...

And speaking of Houston Pavilions, if you go to that thread, you will see that I did some research to find accurate information on that project as well. I'm all about accurate information ;-)

[rantanamo]

Since people of my ilk cannot give you accurate enough information go check out the thread on it at Dallasmetropolis. Post there a little. There's some new accurate information there for you.

PS. No one is bent out of shape. All I can give you is what the articles say and what pictures show. If that's not accurate enough for you, I suggest you contact Hillwood instead of relying on people of our ilk.

[Houston19514]

Since people of my ilk cannot give you accurate enough information go check out the thread on it at Dallasmetropolis. Post there a little. There's some new accurate information there for you.

Been there, done that. Went again at your suggestion and I don't find any new information there about Victory Tower, at all, accurate or otherwise. (Perhaps I overlooked it, if it was not in the victory thread). I did find that Dallasmetropolis.com is where I earlier saw the statement that only the parking garage was currently under construction (which I referenced above), and that particular post went on to say the tower would not start construction until fall. I suspect that is little more than speculation, or a "target" construction date, at best. (and of course I have no idea of the credibility or sources of that particular poster.) Sorry to have interrupted your cozy little dreams with a simple request for information. It is beyond me why that sort of thing gets people so stirred up.

If this were, say Houston Pavilions, and construction appeared to have started, but there was no news, no announcement... I would be curious and start to ask questions. If I then heard that it was only the parking that was under construction, with the rest of the development to come at a later date, I would be interested to know that. I guess you Dallasites are just different that way. ;-)

[Dallasboi]

It is indeed quite too funny for words that a person cannot ask for a simple and factual update on a construction project without you and your ilk (Dallsboi pay attention here) taking it as some sort of nefarious attack on poor little Dallas and your hallowed and miraculous Victory Park.

There has been a lot of speculation and a good amount of just plain incorrect information (eg, DMN's statement last year that Victory Tower was under construction...) about this project. Excuse me for attempting to get to the bottom of it, so to speak.

I beg to differ..............Because I know if I was skeptical about a building going up in Houston and a houstonian answered me with a photo of the project under construction,..I then would just accept that the info was warong .......I would'nt sit and try to find a way to convence anybody that the picture was lying unless I had a problem with accepting the building being built.

[Houston19514]

I beg to differ..............Because I know if I was skeptical about a building going up in Houston and a houstonian answered me with a photo of the project under construction,..I then would just accept that the info was warong .......I would'nt sit and try to find a way to convence anybody that the picture was lying unless I had a problem with accepting the building being built.

Whatever, boi. Even if you had seen other information stating that the building was NOT under construction. Even if there had been utterly no news or announcement about construction on the tallest building built in [Houston] in 20 years or more?

Even if the website for the development (which shows dates for every major groundbreaking in the development, and has been kept pretty well up-to-date) had nothing about the groundbreaking or construction?

Well, what can I say? I'm glad I'm not that gullible. If you are happy living in your little dream world, and accepting whatever is thrown at you by anonymous posters on a website, so be it. I guess you Dallasites are just different that way.

Trust me, I have no problem with the building being built. The renderings look beautiful (but sadly, the finished structures at Victory are not tending to turn out to be nearly as beautiful as the renderings).

I know that if I was skeptical about a building going up in Houston (partly because I'd seen statements that it was in fact not under construction) and a Houstonian answered me with a photo that showed construction near (very near) the site, but not on the actual site, I would not just accept the picture as proof of construction unless I had a problem accepting the fact that the tower is notunder construction.

Face it, Dallasboi, I know it's hard for you to accept, but your hallowed much-anticipated Victory Tower is NOT yet under construction. I'm sorry it's so painful for you. I'm sure there's 12-step program out there for you. ;-)

[txRNGr]

THIS JUST IN FROM THE DMN:

Houston19514 is correct. Finally, some accurate information. It seems that Victory Tower will never be built and Hillwood is pulling the plug on the entire Victory Park project. Hillwood spoke to the City of Dallas about possibly selling the shattered Victory Park at an extreme discount. The City of Dallas has shown interest in turning the former Victory Park into a homeless shelter for the Uptown area.

Houston19514, it is alright to be critical about Victory Tower. Although some think your tone is annoying let me reassure you, it is ok. It is ok to be happy living in your little dream world, and accepting whatever you think to be true. There were others who constantly said Victory wouldn't happen..and, can you believe it, they're still in denial to this day...they wont even go to a Mavs game or drive on I-35. But, to some disbelief, it is being built, and most Dallasites are excited about it...I guess we're just different that way.

[slfunk]

Well I can confidently tell you as someone working in the building industry here in Dallas that the Victory tower is well underway. They have been drilling piers on the site for the past few weeks, both in the garage section and the area of the tower. Of course as in any tower over a parking garage, the garage will be built first. This is also the part of the building (b/c of the strength of concrete needed, the intensive form work) that will take the longest part. It may be fall before we see the building popping up above street level, but I really don't think it will be that long. Posters on the Dallas Metropolis website are posting observations and taking note of what is being played out in the media just like the vast majority of forumers on all these websites. Now Hillwood last fall did mention to the DMN (Steve Brown to be exact) that they had no plans of a ground breaking ceremony. Last fall they spent most of their efforts excavating and building the retaining walls. Like most construction projects in Dallas and other places, things die down as November into December come along and pick back up after the first of the year. This due in large part to the financing timeline of projects, the weather (particular important in concrete design due to the hydration control needed to cure concrete) and other factors. Now any passerby can see the whole is filled with heavy equipment, pier forms, rebar, construction trailers, and workers. Staging ground for supplies is set across the street along 35 for either this tower or for the new office tower (which is just now starting excavation/grading work). This other new office tower is across the street from the park along 35.

[troyboy]

There were others who constantly said Victory wouldn't happen..and, can you believe it, they're still in denial to this day...they wont even go to a Mavs game or drive on I-35. But, to some disbelief, it is being built, and most Dallasites are excited about it...I guess we're just different that way.

You're so right about that. I was one of the skeptical posters on the Dallas board that said Victory would never happen. Although I've glady eaten my share of crow for that, but in my defense, at the time I made that post there wasn't a big hole in the ground and activity everywhere.

[Dallasboi]

Whatever, boi. Even if you had seen other information stating that the building was NOT under construction. Even if there had been utterly no news or announcement about construction on the tallest building built in [Houston] in 20 years or more?

Even if the website for the development (which shows dates for every major groundbreaking in the development, and has been kept pretty well up-to-date) had nothing about the groundbreaking or construction?

Well, what can I say? I'm glad I'm not that gullible. If you are happy living in your little dream world, and accepting whatever is thrown at you by anonymous posters on a website, so be it. I guess you Dallasites are just different that way.

Trust me, I have no problem with the building being built. The renderings look beautiful (but sadly, the finished structures at Victory are not tending to turn out to be nearly as beautiful as the renderings).

I know that if I was skeptical about a building going up in Houston (partly because I'd seen statements that it was in fact not under construction) and a Houstonian answered me with a photo that showed construction near (very near) the site, but not on the actual site, I would not just accept the picture as proof of construction unless I had a problem accepting the fact that the tower is notunder construction.

Face it, Dallasboi, I know it's hard for you to accept, but your hallowed much-anticipated Victory Tower is NOT yet under construction. I'm sorry it's so painful for you. I'm sure there's 12-step program out there for you. ;-)

Speaking of Crow.....I think I might just open a restaurant in Victory that serves heaping helpings of CROW for all of the Houston19514's out there to feast while visiting and coming to their senses .

[Houston19514]

THIS JUST IN FROM THE DMN:

Houston19514 is correct. Finally, some accurate information. It seems that Victory Tower will never be built and Hillwood is pulling the plug on the entire Victory Park project. Hillwood spoke to the City of Dallas about possibly selling the shattered Victory Park at an extreme discount. The City of Dallas has shown interest in turning the former Victory Park into a homeless shelter for the Uptown area.

Houston19514, it is alright to be critical about Victory Tower. Although some think your tone is annoying let me reassure you, it is ok. It is ok to be happy living in your little dream world, and accepting whatever you think to be true. There were others who constantly said Victory wouldn't happen..and, can you believe it, they're still in denial to this day...they wont even go to a Mavs game or drive on I-35. But, to some disbelief, it is being built, and most Dallasites are excited about it...I guess we're just different that way.

Do you have a problem reading and comprehending? I am in no way being critical of Victory Tower, nor have I said that it will never happen. And I live in a dream world????

My goodness, what a thin-skinned group of folks you are. All I have said is that it does not appear as if the Tower is under construction, YET, and you guys respond as though I'd called your mothers whores. Don't take yourselves so seriously... We've been hearing from Dallasite here and on the DFW board since last March that Victory Tower was under construction, and yet, there has been scant or no evidence of that being true, even to this day.

[Houston19514]

Well I can confidently tell you as someone working in the building industry here in Dallas that the Victory tower is well underway. They have been drilling piers on the site for the past few weeks, both in the garage section and the area of the tower. Of course as in any tower over a parking garage, the garage will be built first.

Interesting, but not entirely convincing. The problem with your story is that the Victory Tower is not designed with a tower over a parking garage. It is a tower next door to a parking garage, I would presume essentilly two separate structures. I'm a little surprised that someone working in the building industry in Dallas would not know that. Are you maybe confusing Victory Tower with One Victory Place?

If there are indeed piers going in on the entire site, all the way north to Olive Street, so be it, I shall stand corrected. But, no offense, I'm not willing to take your word for it, since you rather shot your credibility by your lack of knowledge of the building design. AND, I would point out... I have seen many many pictures of that hole in the ground starting in March '06. Not a single one of them has shown the north end of the site, where the tower will be. Strikes me as unusual to say the least, that every single person going down there to take pictures of the construction site has focused on the south end, rather than the north end. Maybe it's just a coincidence, I don't know.

In any event, we shall see soon enough. If they have truly been pouring piers for the tower, it should be popping up above ground level well before fall. And even before then, surely SOMEone will take a picture of the north end of the site.

In the meantime, calm down, Dallas!! I have neither insulted nor criticized. Just asked a simple question. I had no idea that questioning whether a building was under construction would so cut to the core of your souls. ;-)

[slfunk]

Interesting, but not entirely convincing. The problem with your story is that the Victory Tower is not designed with a twoer over a parking garage. It is a tower next door to a parking garage, I would presume essentilly two separate structures. I'm a little surprised that someone working in the building industry in Dallas would not know that.

Well take it for you want. With the exception of a small part of the site that is being used as valet parking by the W hotel, the area is excavated. At least two levels of parking will be underneath the main tower. The majority of the parking garage will be to the south on multiple above grade levels. Also, when you examine developments you will find the parking is not the money driving concept of the design. The generating revenue will come from the tower. Parking structures are more expensive per sq ft then the tower will be, due to the cost of the structure. So, if they are going to the trouble of building the parking garage, you can be assured they will build the tower. Stand alone parking towers typically only come about when there is a huge demand for parking in a concentrated area. Now, before someone uses the garage in the Arts District as an example I will clarify its come abouts. That was the base of a tower that had its financing until the S&L scandals in the 80's that caused its financer to go bust, and ended the project. This resulting in an underground garage with the start of the super structure above.

In the meantime, calm down, Dallas!! I have neither insulted nor criticized. Just asked a simple question. I had no idea that questioning whether a building was under construction would so cut to the core of your souls. ;-) .

As for this, I am answering your question. Thats all.

[Houston19514]

Well take it for you want. With the exception of a small part of the site that is being used as valet parking by the W hotel, the area is excavated. At least two levels of parking will be underneath the main tower. The majority of the parking garage will be to the south on multiple above grade levels. Also, when you examine developments you will find the parking is not the money driving concept of the design. The generating revenue will come from the tower. Parking structures are more expensive per sq ft then the tower will be, due to the cost of the structure. So, if they are going to the trouble of building the parking garage, you can be assured they will build the tower. Stand alone parking towers typically only come about when there is a huge demand for parking in a concentrated area. Now, before someone uses the garage in the Arts District as an example I will clarify its come abouts. That was the base of a tower that had its financing until the S&L scandals in the 80's that caused its financer to go bust, and ended the project. This resulting in an underground garage with the start of the super structure above.

As for this, I am answering your question. Thats all.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You would now have us believe that they are constructing a 45 story building while parking cars (valet parking, no less) on the construction site?? You cannot be serious. Do you suppose Hillwood's liability insurance carrier is aware of this? As someone working in the building industry, have you EVER seen anything like that happen before?

As to the free-standing parking garage, from what I've read, on this board, on the DFW board and in other places, parking is a pretty big issue in the Victory development, what with all the night life and booming retail development. Are you saying that is not true? And FWIW, free-standing parking garages with first floor retail can absolutely be money-generating structures. And the idea that a parking structure is more expensive per square foot to build than a mixed-use very high-end 45-story tower is laughable. Keep digging, man. You're shredding your credibility, but eventually you might find some piers for the Victory Tower construction. ;-)

[Coaster]

I think it's likely that Victory tower will be built, I would just be concerned that it doesn't turn out as butt-ugly as the rest of Victory is turning out. What a shame it would be if the project that is giving some Dallasonians a reason to live turns out to be another Dallas architechural eyesore.

I know, I know - it's all subjective, but so are the accolades, not that I've heard too many from anyone outside Dallas regarding the aesthetics of Victory. But the blinky lights are neato, tacky as a white trash christmas, but neato.

[txRNGr]

Do you have a problem reading and comprehending? I am in no way being critical of Victory Tower, nor have I said that it will never happen. And I live in a dream world????

My goodness, what a thin-skinned group of folks you are. All I have said is that it does not appear as if the Tower is under construction, YET, and you guys respond as though I'd called your mothers whores. Don't take yourselves so seriously... We've been hearing from Dallasite here and on the DFW board since last March that Victory Tower was under construction, and yet, there has been scant or no evidence of that being true, even to this day.

Haha, wow someone can't take a joke. Like I said before, it IS ok to be critical of Victory Tower, you dont have to hide it. As for being critical and insulting towards other forumers(like rantanamo, Dallasboi and now, myself)...don't dish it if you can't take it. Construction has started on Victory Tower, anyone who actually goes to the construction site in person can see this. I can't believe someone sitting behind a small box screen, looking at even smaller boxes of images is telling the people who live around Victory Park that they're incorrect. You have responded NINE(9) times saying that information from other forumers is incorrect without any actual proof...you're hopeless. Talk about taking yourself too serious......