Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[C2H]

I guess i can see how people say that Victory development and Greenway are similar. It's just that Victory has more advantages like:

1) Its newer

2) It's connected by rail

3) It's more walkable

4) It's closer to the CBD

I just think that Houston better keep up with the times and continue to build around its downtown until they can't build no more. I can't help but wonder if the Intermodal Station, Hardy railyard development, and Houston Pavilions are just pipe dreams. I hope they all happen and FAST!

[Houston19514]

He must be thinking about the food court inside!

It's more than just a food court. There are a few other shops in there as well (jewlery store, in addition to movie theaters. Before you get too carried away with your snippy little self, keep in mind that I said there a "little" retail.

[Houston19514]

I guess i can see how people say that Victory development and Greenway are similar. It's just that Victory has more advantages like:

1) Its newer

2) It's connected by rail

3) It's more walkable

4) It's closer to the CBD

I just think that Houston better keep uop with the times and continue to build around its downtown until they cna't build no more. I can't help but wonder if the Intermodal Station, Hardy railyard development, and Houston Pavilions are just pipe dreams. I hope they all happen and FAST!

Remember, people had every reason to fear that Victory was little more than a pipe dream as well. HP has not been on the boards nearly as long as Victory was before it finally got going.

And as to your 4 points.

(1) Obviously, Victory is newer. So much for the constant refrain we hear on this board about Dallas always being "ahead" of Houston.

(2) To say Victory is connected by rail, I believe, is a bit of an overstatement. IIRC, the only rail to Victory currently is for special events at AAC. And BTW, Greenway Plaza will probably be connected by rail too (and it will be newer than Dallas's rail ;-) )

(3) It's more walkable??? (I'm not at all convinced of that. Greenway Plaza is a very lovely and walkable area.

(4) Yes, Victory is "closer" to downtown. But it's not in downtown, so in my mind the relative closeness is almost irrelevant. As I have said before on this thread, I believe Victory will hurt downtown Dallas, just as Greenway Plaza surely hurt(s) downtown Houston. I would have thought Dallas developers/powers that be would have learned that lesson from Houston, and insisted on getting their arena IN downtown, rather than just NEAR downtown. But, in my opinion, they repeated the mistake that Houston made 30 years ago (and for that matter their own mistake in the location of Reunion Arena).

Your comments about Houston needing to "keep up with the times and continue to build around its downtown..." strike me as curious. Have you been to downtown Houston in the past 10 years? The changes and construction that have occurred in that time are nothing short of remarkable.

[713 To 214]

Remember, people had every reason to fear that Victory was little more than a pipe dream as well. HP has not been on the boards nearly as long as Victory was before it finally got going.

And as to your 4 points.

(1) Obviously, Victory is newer. So much for the constant refrain we hear on this board about Dallas always being "ahead" of Houston.

(2) To say Victory is connected by rail, I believe, is a bit of an overstatement. IIRC, the only rail to Victory currently is for special events at AAC. And BTW, Greenway Plaza will probably be connected by rail too (and it will be newer than Dallas's rail ;-) )

(3) It's more walkable??? (I'm not at all convinced of that. Greenway Plaza is a very lovely and walkable area.

(4) Yes, Victory is "closer" to downtown. But it's not in downtown, so in my mind the relative closeness is almost irrelevant. As I have said before on this thread, I believe Victory will hurt downtown Dallas, just as Greenway Plaza surely hurt(s) downtown Houston. I would have thought Dallas developers/powers that be would have learned that lesson from Houston, and insisted on getting their arena IN downtown, rather than just NEAR downtown. But, in my opinion, they repeated the mistake that Houston made 30 years ago (and for that matter their own mistake in the location of Reunion Arena).

Your comments about Houston needing to "keep up with the times and continue to build around its downtown..." strike me as curious. Have you been to downtown Houston in the past 10 years? The changes and construction that have occurred in that time are nothing short of remarkable.

1st of all, it's obvious that you just want to argue this point for argument's sake. So, I won't indulge you too much further with this. I will just stae that the more you attempt to compare the Greenway Plaza project to the Victory project, you look more and more silly, extremely biased, and "blinded" to the reality of the situation. You may be able to pass that comparison off on people who have never seen both projects. However, you're dealing with someone who has intimate knowledge of both of these projects, and cities for that matter. Besides, for those willing to take a real objective look at the two projects. . .there is really no comparison (outside of land area).

I'm sorry to break it to you, but, a food court, a jewelry store, and a few other local "mom & pop" shops in Greenway (i.e. "Car Butler") don't even come close to the unique retail tenant mix of national and international brands set to occupy Victory. Additionally, there is no nightlife in Greenway Plaza (and the movie theater doesn't count). All one has to do is visit either project on any given weekend night and he/she will observe the STARK contrast between the two. There is no real residential that's part of the Greenway project, either. . .a major difference. But, don't take my word for it. Compare them for yourselves.

http://www.victorypark.com/

http://www.greenwayplaza.com/

^Isn't that internet amazing?

[C2H]

Your comments about Houston needing to "keep up with the times and continue to build around its downtown..." strike me as curious. Have you been to downtown Houston in the past 10 years? The changes and construction that have occurred in that time are nothing short of remarkable.

I'll admit i never saw downtown Houston prior to 2000. I'm almost glad i hadn't considering the stories i've been hearing. I'm prety much comparing downtown Houston as is to what i see in downtown Denver. While both downtowns are nice, i have to say that downtown Denver is a more live and happening place. I understand that Denver started revitalizing its downtown way before Houston. also Denver doesn't have several business districts to compete with, so that's understandable.

When i say that downtown Houston needs to keep up with the times and build everything closer to downtown is basically suggesting to steer away from sprawled-out environments. Let's continue to urbanize the central part of Houston so it won't give that "donut" vibe. The donut vibe suggest that the live is everywhere else, but not in the center where it should be.

[Houston19514]

1st of all, it's obvious that you just want to argue this point for argument's sake. So, I won't indulge you too much further with this. I will just stae that the more you attempt to compare the Greenway Plaza project to the Victory project, you look more and more silly, extremely biased, and "blinded" to the reality of the situation. You may be able to pass that comparison off on people who have never seen both projects. However, you're dealing with someone who has intimate knowledge of both of these projects, and cities for that matter. Besides, for those willing to take a real objective look at the two projects. . .there is really no comparison (outside of land area).

I'm sorry to break it to you, but, a food court, a jewelry store, and a few other local "mom & pop" shops in Greenway (i.e. "Car Butler") don't even come close to the unique retail tenant mix of national and international brands set to occupy Victory. Additionally, there is no nightlife in Greenway Plaza (and the movie theater doesn't count). All one has to do is visit either project on any given weekend night and he/she will observe the STARK contrast between the two. There is no real residential that's part of the Greenway project, either. . .a major difference. But, don't take my word for it. Compare them for yourselves.

http://www.victorypark.com/

http://www.greenwayplaza.com/

^Isn't that internet amazing?

Sorry, pal. For anyone who chooses to see, the elements of the two projects are fundamentally the same. Office space, hotels, a little retail (and enough with your silly claims to "international retail". Most of the retail going into Victory Park so far is of local derivation.) (And FWIW, I recognize that Victory has more retail, but it's hardly going to be a regional shopping area). And, yes, residential. I guess you've overlooked 14 and 15 Greenway Plaza, twin 30-story condominium towers. (So much for your "intimate" knowledge of Greenway Plaza.) In addition, a new apartment complex (the Metropole) is set to open soon, and I believe another is under construction. No residential to speak of???? It is to laugh. Oh, yes, throw in a sports arena. (Okay, so the arena at Greenway is now America's largest church...) So tell me again, exactly how is it that there is "no comparison"? Sure, Victory has more nightlife, but I don't think you would even contend that nightlife is the driving force, the raison detre, of the Victory development. I'll bet Greenway Plaza is more active on Sunday mornings, so what? Does that mean there is "no comparison" between the two? Get real.

I'll admit i never saw downtown Houston prior to 2000. I'm almost glad i hadn't considering the stories i've been hearing. I'm prety much comparing downtown Houston as is to what i see in downtown Denver. While both downtowns are nice, i have to say that downtown Denver is a more live and happening place. I understand that Denver started revitalizing its downtown way before Houston. also Denver doesn't have several business districts to compete with, so that's understandable.

When i say that downtown Houston needs to keep up with the times and build everything closer to downtown is basically suggesting to steer away from sprawled-out environments. Let's continue to urbanize the central part of Houston so it won't give that "donut" vibe. The donut vibe suggest that the live is everywhere else, but not in the center where it should be.

Absolutely, downtown Denver feels more "alive" on the sidewalks. But you are quite right also that Downtown Denver started its revitalization many many years before Houston did. And as a reminder, downtown Denver's revitalization did not happen overnight or without stumbles and setbacks along the way, either. I see a lot of similarities between the two, actually, and I think downtown Houston has been heading in the same direction, as downtown Denver

[713 To 214]

I stand by my statements. Anyone who'd like to evaluate the projects from here on can look at the two websites. Now, I believe the topic of discussion for this thread is supposed to be Victory compared to Pavillions. Anyone else who feels compelled to pull other projects from Midtown (i.e. Greenway Plaza), the Galleria Area, Woodlands, Galveston, etc, etc. into the discussion, please just start another comparison thread. Thanks in advance.

[C2H]

I stand by my statements. Anyone who'd like to evaluate the projects from here on can look at the two websites. Now, I believe the topic of discussion for this thread is supposed to be Victory compared to Pavillions. Anyone else who feels compelled to pull other projects from Midtown (i.e. Greenway Plaza), the Galleria Area, Woodlands, Galveston, etc, etc. into the discussion, please just start another comparison thread. Thanks in advance.

Before we get back to the Pavilions comparison, i just want to say that i agree with Houston19514 and question how you can say that Greenway Plaza is not comaprable to Victory. Not to start any war but i notice you say that you're familiar with both cities quite often when making a comparison. The only real thing that the website suggested is that Victory is a newer, hotter development with a fancier website with all the bells and whistles. When it all comes down to it, the developments are basically the same. Both are mixed use, master-planned developments with hotels and office buildings. One is 40 years older, so it's not quite as fancy as the other. One is 5 miles from the CBD, one is .5 from the CBD.

The funny thing about it, Greenway is still growing and for the better. The last time i was in Houston, they had constructed quite a few new residences and Office buildings within the Greenway Plaza area and is coming along quite nicely. Like 19514 mentioned, the Metropole will be coming along as well. Just admit 713-214 that you're very biased when it comes to your comparisons of Houston and Dallas. Your name says it all!

[713 To 214]

Just admit 713-214 that you're very biased when it comes to your comparisons of Houston and Dallas. Your name says it all!

I respect your opinion.

[Houston19514]

I stand by my statements. Anyone who'd like to evaluate the projects from here on can look at the two websites. Now, I believe the topic of discussion for this thread is supposed to be Victory compared to Pavillions. Anyone else who feels compelled to pull other projects from Midtown (i.e. Greenway Plaza), the Galleria Area, Woodlands, Galveston, etc, etc. into the discussion, please just start another comparison thread. Thanks in advance.

LOL Alright, everyone. 713 to 214 has now laid down the law. NOBODY IS TO MENTION ANY OTHER PARTS OF ANY OTHER CITY IN THIS THREAD. Got it? \

Here's a thought, 713 to 214: If you want to make the rules, please just start your own forum.

And by the way, anyone with an intimate knowledge of Greenway Plaza knows that on does not get the full picture of Greenway Plaza from Crescent's website, because they don't own everything there; Their website only covers the portions they own and operate.

[Dallasboi]

I certainly will reserve final judgment until I see it in person and perhaps until it comes closer to completion. But I disagree with Rantanamo. First, Victory Park is working on its second phase, not its first. And I don't think it's looking like something great at all... To me it looks terribly underwhelming. Reminds me a little of some of the office parks in West Houston.

Color me surprised that Rantanamo, of all people, thinks it looks great... has he ever had anything less than glowingly positive to say about any Dallas development, ever? ;-)

There's an underground retail area. (It's not very big, but there are/were movie theaters there as well) Also, Tony's Restaurant is there.

(sounds like somebody is pouting)

[tamtagon]

Color me surprised that Rantanamo, of all people, thinks it looks great... has he ever had anything less than glowingly positive to say about any Dallas development, ever? ;-)

... Also, Tony's Restaurant is there.

Rantanamo is very efficient, direct and accurate (my opinion) when pointing out the negatives of developments in Dallas. On this website, though, it's understandable that the focus would be more on successful developments in Dallas....

I remember back in Jr. High School when I first started reading Texas Monthly and would always get that prideful stir to read the reviews of Tony's Restaurant - "one of the best in the country." I still wonder what would have happened if I had gone to college in Houston rather than Denton.

I really like the AA Center, and the throw back architecture. On paper, I still prefer the old plans in which plaza buildings adjacent to the AAC looked similar. I've never been there to really know whether or not I would actually like the architectural juxtaposition, but everyone I know in Dallas has positive if not glowing reports about the street level feel of the development so far.

[rantanamo]

Houston19514, I take it you haven't been reading my work for very long. I'm criticize for the exact opposite on other websites, because I tell it like it is too much at times. I'm not much of a sugar coater. And it was not I who started calling this the first phase of Victory Park. It was the developers in the last article. so

I would like to take this time to apologize for the boastful pride I have taken with this project. I've always thought it was good for the area, but mentioned it being out urbaned by the Cityplace West area, that was developing much faster initially(at the time, both had similar brick like designs). Now Victory is really charging ahead, drawing people and looking great. Sorry if that's too prideful or too much homerism, but it does look great. Everytime you go by on Stemmons, you see horizontal lines everywhere. You can see the lights and some screens on as well. It looks like it will be great for pedestrians as well. But let me add, its in Dallas.............therefore it should be teh suck. Is that better?

[mgd323]

I usually just lurk because the banter is entertaining, but I drove around Victory this weekend and I have to say the W and the 2 mid-level buildings are extremely dissapointing close-up....reminds me of a block from the USSR (still not sure what I think of the plaza buildings in relation with AAC). The Cirque and the other buildings planned look like they have a lot more to offer. By the way, that Greenway Plaza looks pretty interesting. I'd like to see how it develops in the long run.

[troyboy]

I love Victory!!! And not because it's in Dallas (although, since I live here now, I'm glad it is). I would love it if it were in Houston, Austin or anywhere else. I think it is one of the most ambitious projects being constucting in the coutry right now. I love most of the buildings presently constructed. But will agree with mjd about the midrise condos. They seem very cold and sterile. I do love the silver plaza buildings, and I've never been crazy about AA Arena's exterior. But to each his own. I, however, don't doubt one bit, that if Victory were in Houston, most of these Houstonites that dislike it and knock it would praise it as if it was the greatest development ever. Much like they praise the soon, if ever, to be built Pavillions.

Maybe this thread's title should be changed to simply "Victory" anyway. I was surprised to learn that with all of this talk about the fabulous, and amazing Houston Pavillions that the project hasn't even begun construction and many HAIF members believe the project is dead. When the Pavillions break ground and buildings start going up, then lets compare the two. In the meantime I guess you can keep comparing it to Greenway Plaza...a comparison that is just as ridiculous.

[C2H]

I love Victory!!! And not because it's in Dallas (although, since I live here now, I'm glad it is). I would love it if it were in Houston, Austin or anywhere else. I think it is one of the most ambitious projects being constucting in the coutry right now. I love most of the buildings presently constructed. But will agree with mjd about the midrise condos. They seem very cold and sterile. I do love the silver plaza buildings, and I've never been crazy about AA Arena's exterior. But to each his own. I, however, don't doubt one bit, that if Victory were in Houston, most of these Houstonites that dislike it and knock it would praise it as if it was the greatest development ever. Much like they praise the soon, if ever, to be built Pavillions.

Maybe this thread's title should be changed to simply "Victory" anyway. I was surprised to learn that with all of this talk about the fabulous, and amazing Houston Pavillions that the project hasn't even begun construction and many HAIF members believe the project is dead. When the Pavillions break ground and buildings start going up, then lets compare the two. In the meantime I guess you can keep comparing it to Greenway Plaza...a comparison that is just as ridiculous.

I think you're right, many people on here would love the development if it were in Houston. However, i like the development as is in Dallas. I personally can't help but wonder why these developers chose Dallas over Houston for the location. But i don't want to be accused of trying to start a Dal VS Hou flame war, so we won't get into that.

Could you explain why you feel that comapring Greenway Plaza to Dallas Victory is ridiculous though?

[nmainguy]

1st of all, it's obvious that you just want to argue this point for argument's sake. So, I won't indulge you too much further with this. I will just stae that the more you attempt to compare the Greenway Plaza project to the Victory project, you look more and more silly, extremely biased, and "blinded" to the reality of the situation.

Exactly: Greenway is no more like Victory than Victory will be to the Pavilions. The comparisons were a joke to begin with.

for those willing to take a real objective look at the two projects. . .there is really no comparison (outside of land area).

I'm sorry to break it to you, but, a food court, a jewelry store, and a few other local "mom & pop" shops in Greenway (i.e. "Car Butler") don't even come close to the unique retail tenant mix of national and international brands set to occupy Victory. Additionally, there is no nightlife in Greenway Plaza (and the movie theater doesn't count). All one has to do is visit either project on any given weekend night and he/she will observe the STARK contrast between the two.

You forgot to mention the lovely but barren and unusable summertime blast furnace/winter time wind tunnel of Greenway's plaza.

Guess what people: This topic was doomed from the beginning. Dallas has a great new project and we will too-plus more. But they are not comparable-and don't need to be.

http://www.victorypark.com/

http://www.greenwayplaza.com/

^Isn't that internet amazing?

[dalparadise]

I stand by my statements. Anyone who'd like to evaluate the projects from here on can look at the two websites. Now, I believe the topic of discussion for this thread is supposed to be Victory compared to Pavillions. Anyone else who feels compelled to pull other projects from Midtown (i.e. Greenway Plaza), the Galleria Area, Woodlands, Galveston, etc, etc. into the discussion, please just start another comparison thread. Thanks in advance.

One other point to note is that Greenway is practically adjacent to Highland Village (it's walking distance, though admittedly, NO ONE walks it). There's your impressive, exclusive retail. Plus, from Highland Village, The Galleria is an easy, albeit also lonely walk away. This is why Greenway was not developed as a retail center, not lack of vision.

The comparison of Greenway and Victory is not an attempt to prove which one is hotter. Victory wins that, hands-down. In an urban planning and design context, however, I merely pointed out that Victory struck me as Dallas' version of Greenway Plaza, just with a 40-year newer spin. There was a lot of grumbling on this thread about why Houston couldn't get its act together and get a Victory-like project off the ground. I was trying to point out that we already had -- 40 years ago.

[nmainguy]

The comparison of Greenway and Victory is not an attempt to prove which one is hotter. Victory wins that, hands-down. In an urban planning and design context, however, I merely pointed out that Victory struck me as Dallas' version of Greenway Plaza, just with a 40-year newer spin. There was a lot of grumbling on this thread about why Houston couldn't get its act together and get a Victory-like project off the ground. I was trying to point out that we already had -- 40 years ago.

Good point in so far as it goes in context to the 21st century. Greenway has residential-attached to a health club atop a parking garage adjacent to a hotel via a walk through a parking garage to a subterainian retail strip with air conditioned access to office towers. It was a great concept when it was originated and has proved to be succesful enough to be sustainable with periodic upgrades. Victory's fate may well be the same successful, sustainable development with upgrades. They are both products of their times which may or may not prove to be lasting.

Time will tell...but I'm not counting on either to be the next Roc Center...which would be nice but not neccessary.

[713 To 214]

Good point in so far as it goes in context to the 21st century. Greenway has residential-attached to a health club atop a parking garage adjacent to a hotel via a walk through a parking garage to a subterainian retail strip with air conditioned access to office towers. It was a great concept when it was originated and has proved to be successful enough to be sustainable with periodic upgrades. Victory's fate may well be the same successful, sustainable development with upgrades. They are both products of their times which may or may not prove to be lasting.

Time will tell...but I'm not counting on either to be the next Roc Center...which would be nice but not necessary.

Well stated! And for clarification's sake, my major point regarding the Greenway Plaza development was/is that it is primarily an office park. . .no matter how many third-party residential projects are built in close proximity to it. The retail set-up was obviously designed to offer, primarily, Greenway Plaza office tenants some convenient amenities while at work. This is evident by the fact that the retail, including the food court is insulated from the public-at-large, and after 5 o'clock the shops basically shut down. In contrast, Victory's retail mix was designed to be accessible and inviting to the public-at-large, as well as the residents in Victory, long into the evening, and in some cases the wee hours of the morning.

For what it's worth: After taking a step back and looking at the Greenway Plaza from a historical perspective, I do agree with others, that for a majority of the past forty Years, the project has been a Victory of sorts, and certainly something Houstonians can/should be proud of.

[dalparadise]

Does it worry anyone out there that I'm coming off as a unifyer of ideas in this exchange?

[rantanamo]

why the need to compare. How about Las Colinas urban center of the 80s to Greenway Plaza, though Las Colinas Urban Center is definitely correcting itself as far as urbanity goes.

[musicman]

One other point to note is that Greenway is practically adjacent to Highland Village (it's walking distance, though admittedly, NO ONE walks it).

LOL cause it isn't an easy walking distance for most.

[RedScare]

why the need to compare. How about Las Colinas urban center of the 80s to Greenway Plaza, though Las Colinas Urban Center is definitely correcting itself as far as urbanity goes.

A better question might be, "Why not actually COMPARE, instead of giving arbitrary and usually regionalistic opinions of which is better?"

Perhaps it begins with the thread title, but very few posts have actually compared and contrasted these 2 developments. Most posters applaud the one in their city, while denigrating the other. A true comparison would point out similarities between the two, while noting the differences. The intelligent poster might then give his or her opinion as to which design or characteristic he or she prefers, or note which development does a better job of integrating into the surrounding area, or meets some criteria for density or urbanism.

Instead, most of the posters assume some ridiculous criterion as the only standard for comparison, and then proceed to use said ridiculous criterion to denigrate the other project. In the case of Victory, the ridiculous criterion seems to always be that it is a unified development, as if several developers building in a confined area do not count. For HP boosters, it seems to always be that it is Downtown, versus Victory being on the edge, or outside of Dallas' traditional downtown boundary.

As soon as one poster drops into the boosterism argument, others follow. Lost in the fracas is the fact that both developments (as well as Greenway Plaza) add, or will add to the streetscape of each city. Both will genrate excitement and foot traffic. While one developer controlling the entire parcel MIGHT give an area a better look, it is not an absolute. The collective vision of 2 or 3 developers might give a better eclectic appeal to another area.

It would be a nice break to actually read intelligent discussion on the 2 developments. We already know Hillwood is building Victory. We already know that HP is in the middle of Downtown. Now, try telling me whether walking, shopping and living in these developments will be enjoyable, and why.

[tierwestah]

Fellas! Fellas! I understand what the topic starter was trying to do. Before we get into stating how ridiculous the comparisons between HP and DV were to begin with, let's examine the elements.

Now i and a few others sent several PMs to the topic starter asking him to change the title to DV verses Houston Pavilions and the development around it. The topic starter stated in his reply to my PM that he was really trying to compare the Houston Pavilions, Toyota Center, Hilton, Park, and everything that will be surrounding the HP project. He just hadn't asked it right, partly because the title of the thread would be too long if he added: "Dallas Victory VS Houston Pavilions and all the development around it"

If you add in all the surrounding elements to HP, we see that the Victory Development is similar. Even though all these different projects on downtown Houston's eastside are not all tied to one project, the development is happening. Houston Pavilions will be the centerpiece of all the development, that's why the topic starter chose the title to be HP versus Vctory, to see which will have a stronger impact on downtown.

For anyone who still doesn't understand the comparison in this topic, please see the topic starter's opening post to where he recently edited it to explain the comparison.

tierwestah jones

[rantanamo]

My problem with the comparison for those that don't understand:

- Victory has set boundaries and they are forever set in stone. It has been built in that location as a whole.

- If you're talking about an area of DT Houston, then what is the limit on that comparison area. You can include or exclude anything you want, and if something is built on the next block it can be added to that area.

You can't get past that point.

[TheNiche]

You can't get past that point.

Of course I can: it isn't relevant. If something gets built next door to the boundaries of Victory, isn't it still a part of that area in the way that the average joe percieves it?

[Dallascaper]

Of course I can: it isn't relevant. If something gets built next door to the boundaries of Victory, isn't it still a part of that area in the way that the average joe percieves it?

The average Joe doesn't launch threads and post polls about urban development. The average Joe doesn

[tierwestah]

The average Joe doesn't launch threads and post polls about urban development. The average Joe doesn

[Dallascaper]

It's a fair comparison to compare the Houston Pavilions and east side of downtown Houston to the Victory development since many of the same things are going up. If you don't like it, stay on the Dallas forum.

This is a Dallas forum.