Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[houstonfella]

I'm an unashamed Houston booster and occasional Dallas detractor. I found Willy's "who cares" post to be pretty much objective, albeit lacking in any real substance. I agree with his assessments.

Agreed.

[dalparadise]

Agreed.

So what?

[C2H]

Actually, Coster... (since you decided to address me directly)

And just so you know, posts like yours make it seem like Houston forum members are so filled with hatred for Dallas/Dallasites that they can't deal with the idea of anyone actually posting anything positive about Dallas. Which sort of leaves the impression that Houstonites suffer from some sort of serious inferiority complex, which has been discussed many times on HAIF. I've heard of penis envy... but Dallas envy seems to be running wild here in HAIF. (I can't wait to hear the rebutals to that one - which, of course, will further reinforce my point.) Like someone else said, why even have a DFW thread in HAIF if the only purpose for it is to bash Dallas and Dallasites? Unless, of course, that really is the whole reason for this thread in the first place...

I agree with most of your post. The only thing i disagree with is you acting like Dallasites on here don't take part in the rivalry comments on here too. There are many Dallasites that come on here and boost their city and talk down on Houston. Even in this thread, i would suggest you go back a couple of pages and see what some Dallasites have said about Victory blowing HP away. It may be true but it still provokes a Dallas VS Houston war.

I don't think this thread should be closed because people are actually making responses that is relevant to the topic. Just try to keep down the Dallas VS Houston flamewars a bit so the moderators don't close it down. I'm actually enjoying the topic.

If subdude were still here, this thread would be gone by now.

[Houston19514]

[quote name='Dallasboi' date='Wednesday, November 22nd, 2006 @ 5:25pm' post='129267'And Tierwester we have international brands in Victory not chains.So it will be hard to match that.I think every store in Victory will be the second or third in the United States.That's because International brands go to the hottest markets first.

I guess I haven't kept up with the retail leasing at Victory. Can you give us a list of the stores, especially the "international brands" for whom Victory will be their 2nd or 3rd US location?

Since the initial posting of my question, I have spent a little time on Victory Park's website and I cannot find a single store slated to open in Victory Park that matches the description you gave us. In fact, the Victory press releases say they are offering a "colletion of both nationally established and emerging restaurant and retail brands". Not a word about "international" brands. The information I found shows that most of the retail will be of local creation, with a few chains mixed in. I can find no international brands for whom Victory Park will be their 2nd or 3rd location in the US.

It appears that DallasBoi might be providing us with just a bit of disinformation.

[Willy1]

Well good, Willy. I'm glad you're getting the therapy you need. Anyone who has nothing better to do with his time than to write a 400 word post where he himself admits that the comparison of Houston and Dallas is a total waste of time, needs therapy badly.

And don't worry, I never take any of your posts seriously. However, it is a form of light entertainment watching you sad Dallasonians constantly coming down to HAIF to tell Houstonites how envious they are - when it is people like YOU that can't seem to get Houston out of your system. (131 posts are the proof)

Now give us another 300 words about how you are able to rise above the LCD.

LOL... Actually - I am not a Dallasonian or a Houstonian, so I am in fact unbiased when it comes to the whole Dallas v. Houston thing. I actually like both cities a lot. And, I don't come to the Houston forum to tell Houstonians how envious they are... However, when someone gets personal with me, I will respond with equal humor, or equal bile... whatever form seems warranted at the time. I do come to this site to read up on the perceptions of Dallas and other Texas cities from an outsiders perspective. I sort of view myself as a middle-man in this war between cities. I think it's interesting that two of the greatest cities in the country apparently loath each other so much for what seems to be no real reason other than wanting bragging rights or jealousy of one another... It's like a big civic version of King of the Hill.

As for the 400 word response - I am a professional writer so it takes me about 90 seconds to pound out 400 words. So, it wasn't as much of a waste of time as you would think...

P.S. My therapist said to tell you hi and remind you that your appointment is scheduled for 1:00 Thursday and, as always, she has cleared the rest of her afternoon for you. ;-)

[Coaster]

YOU are a professional writer? Let me guess...judging by the long winded, pointless rants, run-on sentences and spelling errors, you must write for Bill O'Reilly. I guess you can say you are anything you want on the Internet. If I were you, I wouldn't be expecting any Pulitzer's anytime soon. Not being a professional writer, I'm comfortable with MY bad spelling.

All kidding aside however, I still think it is very strange that someone with no bias between Houston and Dallas would come to this website so often to throw fuel on the fire. I can't imagine what a middleman would get out of it. At least I understand why a Dallasite would want to defend or brag about their city. I just don't get your angle, and I don't buy it either. It's obvious that you are apart of the LCD or you wouldn't have taken the time (however long it took you) to write a post where the only point was to start a new round of "hostile replies" or to prompt the moderators to close the thread.

Anyway if your original point was to get the topic of the Houston Pavilions vs. the Victory Project back on track, you have failed miserably.

You can tell your therapist that I'm giving my time to you. It will be better for both of us if you see her as often as possible.

[Willy1]

Actually.... I don't spell check or really even re-read anything before I hit Add Reply. NO ONE actually pays much attention to spelling or grammer in a public internet forum. But I assure you, when needed, I do quite well for myself when it comes to writing. But you make a good point - anyone can claim to be anything on the internet. So, I'm officially changing my identity right now. Hear yee, hear yee... NOW HERE THIS... WILLY1 is the world's first billionaire adult film star, and he has a perfectly toned body... oh yeah, and a Pulitzer too!

Interesting story... A few years ago I wrote a feature article for a major magazine that actually compared another major Texas city (I won't say which one because I'd hate to detract from all the laser-focused Dallas bashing) to Dallas... In the article, Dallas came up on the short end in a big way. Even more interesting... when I was hired for the assignment, the managing editor handed me a copy of an article from the Houston Chronicle that just bashed the crap out of Dallas in every imaginable way; the skyline, the people, population, the traffic... you name it. After reading the article the editor told me she wanted something even more acid-tongued than what the Houston Chronicle had published... she wanted to pick a fight with D magazine. And, that's exactly what I gave them. Of course, they watered down my article before going to press with it.

Anyway, I did not fail to get this topic back on track... My "so what" post was intended to get this topic back on track. But, that was before you began posting rude personal attacks aimed at me, and before I took the low road and replied to those attacks. Now, I really don't care about the topic anymore... I'm just having fun with you at this point. Hence my long-winded replies. Oh, and by the way, when it comes to my angle I really don't care if you "get it" or whether or not you believe me. Are you really so arrogant as to think that I, or anyone else in here, needs to have your approval for some reason? Are YOU SURE you're not from Dallas?

I think it's worth mentioning at this point that it's so much easier to find faults in a person (or a city) than it is to find the good in them. I try very hard to find the good in people and in this case places... Houston, Dallas, etc. Unfortuately I don't have much of a history of interaction with you, Coaster. And, I regret that our interactions have been so negative. I respect your passion for Houston. As irritating as the Houston vs. Dallas flame wars are, each city is lucky to have such passionate citizens. it's just too bad there is so much ill-will between Texas' two megacities. And too bad that it lead to such hostile words between the citizens themselve. Hey Coaster, maybe you and I should run for Dallas City Council since we're behaving like DCC members! Wait, make that the DISD board - they get better perks from the tax payers, like all new furniture for their homes!

Till next time.

[houstonfella]

From Dallascaper: "And yes, everyone knows that Houston is America's fourth largest city. Let us know when you overtake NYC and then you will have something worth bragging about. Until then, please refrain from the

[Dallasboi]

From Dallascaper: "And yes, everyone knows that Houston is America's fourth largest city. Let us know when you overtake NYC and then you will have something worth bragging about. Until then, please refrain from the

[houstonfella]

No one is arguing the point..........That's why it's so annoying......If you really want to take a look at the situation, being fourth largest really says alot since the 9th largest Is giving you a run for ya money in every catagory.....Since Dallas is the 9th largest...It is no way we should even be comparable to the 4th largest city...If that really mattered....

Don't worry Boi, Dallas isn't giving anyone a run for anything except maybe San Antonio.

Last time I surveyed the situation was Uptown Houston has twin several twin residential towers, plus lots of other residential towers and Victory would have to build and build and build to even get close. By the way, that doesn't mention office towers. Uptown Houston is 14th largest CBD in the USofA. Downtown Houston is third. And Dallas really isn't comparable to Houston. It just thinks it is. Oh, we aren't building anything down here. The projects at TMC, Kirby, Uptown, the Bay, Clear Lake, Galveston, and HP are just drawings on a make-believe board. Good luck at catching #4 bad boy.

[Dallasboi]

Don't worry Boi, Dallas isn't giving anyone a run for anything except maybe San Antonio.

Last time I surveyed the situation was Uptown Houston has twin several twin residential towers, plus lots of other residential towers and Victory would have to build and build and build to even get close. By the way, that doesn't mention office towers. Uptown Houston is 14th largest CBD in the USofA. Downtown Houston is third. And Dallas really isn't comparable to Houston. It just thinks it is. Oh, we aren't building anything down here. The projects at TMC, Kirby, Uptown, the Bay, Clear Lake, Galveston, and HP are just drawings on a make-believe board. Good luck at catching #4 bad boy.

What I don't understand is ...in all of your post it seems as if you feel that you have to justify or validate houston.....WE ALL KNOW HOUSTON IS LARGER THAN DALLAS.......WEALL KNOW HOUSTON IS THE FOURTH MOST POULATED CITY IN THE U.S. ....With that being said you shouldn't have to say it anymore.It proves nothing.

Oh and I'm just curious as to why this is so important to you...what exactly does that say?

[texastrill]

Hey Coaster, maybe you and I should run for Dallas City Council since we're behaving like DCC members! Wait, make that the DISD board - they get better perks from the tax payers, like all new furniture for their homes!

[houstonfella]

Hello, Mayor Laura here. I am trying to get funding for the Cotton Bowl. It is very important for Dallas to keep this major event; otherwise, Texas and OU will leave.

*Perhaps we could build a retractable roof domed stadium; you know, Houston has two of 'em. In fact, the entire world changed the way sports was played when the Astrodome was built. Maybe Houston did have a vision. Yes, that's it: dredge the muddy Trinity all the way to the Gulf so Dallas can have a port. By jove, I believe we have the answer to making Dallas the Fourth Largest City in the entire country.

[tamtagon]

Go Spurs!

[Gary]

I walked today from On The Border to One Victory Park in 5 minutes. I was walking at my normal pace which means I get passed occasional by a lady in heals during the business day. That put the walk time from One Victory Park to the south side of Woodall Rogers at right about 3 minutes. It took about 3 minutes and 15 or 30 seconds to go from On The Border to the House (in Victory), where a crew seemed to be working pretty hard today. The time from the downtown to The House was very short.

My seconds are a bit fuzzy, because I was using my phone but I did wait until the phone flipped to 2:28pm to start my walk. A beautiful fall day in Texas to take the train downtown... mid 70s, sunny, and low humidity. Didn't take too many photos on my walk but I took a few. They were really going to town on the House of Blues building.

Jason

I like that structure. Should be very cool when complete.

[Houston19514]

What I don't understand is ...in all of your post it seems as if you feel that you have to justify or validate houston.....WE ALL KNOW HOUSTON IS LARGER THAN DALLAS.......WEALL KNOW HOUSTON IS THE FOURTH MOST POULATED CITY IN THE U.S. ....With that being said you shouldn't have to say it anymore.It proves nothing.

Oh and I'm just curious as to why this is so important to you...what exactly does that say?

Dallasboi, I asked you a serious and relevant question back in post #334. I presume you have overlooked it. But if you could put down your spitballs long enough to take a look, I would appreciate seeing your answer.

[texastrill]

^If only FW could be blessed with one."Azure Cowtown"

[slfunk]

I walked today from On The Border to One Victory Park in 5 minutes. I was walking at my normal pace which means I get passed occasional by a lady in heals during the business day. That put the walk time from One Victory Park to the south side of Woodall Rogers at right about 3 minutes. It took about 3 minutes and 15 or 30 seconds to go from On The Border to the House (in Victory), where a crew seemed to be working pretty hard today. The time from the downtown to The House was very short.

I was down that way on Sunday, and it is a little over a quarter mile from Hooters to Victory Plaza outside AAC. According to the mileage on my car, .3 miles to be exact. So its not this couple miles thing from the West End to Victory Plaza. Its only a half mile if you go from the West End market place. It will be a little over a mile from the heart of downtown on Main Street over by Iron Cactus, but I just don't see anyone trying to walk from Iron Cactus to AAC with DART a street over. I do see more then plenty of people walking from the lots around the West End to the AAC including this past Sunday.

[houstonfella]

I like that structure. Should be very cool when complete.

It is truly a beautiful building. In fact, the entire area is very, very nice and cool. There is nothing to be said in a negative way about Victory. And that's from a Houstonian.

[VicMan]

Wait, make that the DISD board - they get better perks from the tax payers, like all new furniture for their homes!

Too bad the WHISD isn't still there.

Wilmer-Hutchins ISD had way more corruptness than Dallas ISD.

Thankfully, WHISD ran out of money and closed. It is now a part of Dallas ISD.

[Coaster]

Actually.... I don't spell check or really even re-read anything before I hit Add Reply. NO ONE actually pays much attention to spelling or grammer in a public internet forum. But I assure you, when needed, I do quite well for myself when it comes to writing. But you make a good point - anyone can claim to be anything on the internet. So, I'm officially changing my identity right now. Hear yee, hear yee... NOW HERE THIS... WILLY1 is the world's first billionaire adult film star, and he has a perfectly toned body... oh yeah, and a Pulitzer too!

Interesting story... A few years ago I wrote a feature article for a major magazine that actually compared another major Texas city (I won't say which one because I'd hate to detract from all the laser-focused Dallas bashing) to Dallas... In the article, Dallas came up on the short end in a big way. Even more interesting... when I was hired for the assignment, the managing editor handed me a copy of an article from the Houston Chronicle that just bashed the crap out of Dallas in every imaginable way; the skyline, the people, population, the traffic... you name it. After reading the article the editor told me she wanted something even more acid-tongued than what the Houston Chronicle had published... she wanted to pick a fight with D magazine. And, that's exactly what I gave them. Of course, they watered down my article before going to press with it.

Anyway, I did not fail to get this topic back on track... My "so what" post was intended to get this topic back on track. But, that was before you began posting rude personal attacks aimed at me, and before I took the low road and replied to those attacks. Now, I really don't care about the topic anymore... I'm just having fun with you at this point. Hence my long-winded replies. Oh, and by the way, when it comes to my angle I really don't care if you "get it" or whether or not you believe me. Are you really so arrogant as to think that I, or anyone else in here, needs to have your approval for some reason? Are YOU SURE you're not from Dallas?

I think it's worth mentioning at this point that it's so much easier to find faults in a person (or a city) than it is to find the good in them. I try very hard to find the good in people and in this case places... Houston, Dallas, etc. Unfortuately I don't have much of a history of interaction with you, Coaster. And, I regret that our interactions have been so negative. I respect your passion for Houston. As irritating as the Houston vs. Dallas flame wars are, each city is lucky to have such passionate citizens. it's just too bad there is so much ill-will between Texas' two megacities. And too bad that it lead to such hostile words between the citizens themselve. Hey Coaster, maybe you and I should run for Dallas City Council since we're behaving like DCC members! Wait, make that the DISD board - they get better perks from the tax payers, like all new furniture for their homes!

Till next time.

Oh, you care what I and everybody at HAIF thinks alright. Above is the proof. When people really don't care about what others think, they don't do anything to try to explain their actions, or motives. They do it, or in this case write it and move on. That's not you Willy, admit it. But, hey - it's no crime either. It's perfectly natural to go on the defensive when you think you're being attacked.

I made a mistake taking this to a personal level, so I'll back off of that. It's not like I don't think you have a right to your opinions. I should have just said that the "So What" post was a big waste of time because it was nothing more that a condensed version of this entire DFW section of HAIF that seemed to be designed to fuel the fire. It's hard to believe that you were expecting anything but hostile replies, arguments, and personal attacks to follow. I've heard far worse things about both Houston and Dallas, but that post just seemed so completely unnecessary and was just inviting trouble.

The Hou vs. Dal thing will be going on long after we're all dead and buried. Get used to it. The DFW section at HAIF will forever be nothing but a place to argue. Age, maturity, and profession lose all meaning here. 12 year-olds argue with professors, porn stars argue with priest, writers argue with designers.

This IS 5th grade, that's probably why it's fun. Who the hell cares about Victory or HP anymore?

[nmainguy]

It is truly a beautiful building. In fact, the entire area is very, very nice and cool. There is nothing to be said in a negative way about Victory. And that's from a Houstonian.

Bingo. It's a great thing for Dallas and the state just as the Pavilions will be for Houston and the state. I for one just don't see the comparison. They are two different animals.

[troyboy]

Pardon this interruption, as I wish to de-lurk to make a comment.

Well, Kolkata is bigger than Dallas too, but that doesn't mean I want to live there. Posts like yours, houstonfella, make me wonder why this forum exists. The top the the forum states, "Respectful discussions only. My-city-is-better-than-your-city flame wars are not permitted on HAIF. "He started it" is not a valid excuse."

I assume that this means that this forum is for posting things that are going on in Dallas. Yet, one can't post any remark about Dallas without some Houstonite taking offence, hijacking the thread and generally going off the deep end. I am aware that some claim it is in all good fun, but the hostility displayed toward Dallas, and the obsession to prove Dallas posters wrong clearly masks other problems.

Oh my god, Dallas has a new tower? Then Houston must have FIVE! And a boat too!

What pretty pictures of Dallas and such clear skies. Oh my god, Houston has pretty pictures too, here let me hijack this thread with my smog-free Houston photos! Thanks, Gary, the great defender of Houston.

And yes, everyone knows that Houston is America's fourth largest city. Let us know when you overtake NYC and then you will have something worth bragging about. Until then, please refrain from the

[Dallasboi]

Dallasboi, I asked you a serious and relevant question back in post #334. I presume you have overlooked it. But if you could put down your spitballs long enough to take a look, I would appreciate seeing your answer.

I admit I did word it wrong....What I was trying to say was "specialty Brands", and that the tenant line up will be entirely new to the whole state of Texas or even the whole southern part of the United States.Meaning that the stores that were chosen only have maybe two or three other Locations in the united States with dallas being the southern market they chose and felt would fit their storebrand the best .That truly says alot about Dallas being in a position to lure all of the top notch brands at once. However I'm not saying tht other southern cities wont see some of these brands but I am simply saying it simply won't be in mass like this project is bringing ,and a similar project (HP,or HR)would have to be as big or bigger with equal Tenants.An I really do believe that Houston will most definately see some major upscale store brands(or specialty Brands) in the near future,I just don't think it will be as many or grouped together like victory.I hope this explains it.....I really do apologize if you feel that I mislead you ...that is never my intention.

[nmainguy]

I assume that this means that this forum is for posting things that are going on in Dallas.

Perhaps the topic is in the wrong place since the title refers to both citys. Feel free to lobby the moderators and/or editor to have it moved if it bothers you this much.

[Houston19514]

I admit I did word it wrong....What I was trying to say was "specialty Brands", and that the tenant line up will be entirely new to the whole state of Texas or even the whole southern part of the United States.Meaning that the stores that were chosen only have maybe two or three other Locations in the united States with dallas being the southern market they chose and felt would fit their storebrand the best .That truly says alot about Dallas being in a position to lure all of the top notch brands at once. However I'm not saying tht other southern cities wont see some of these brands but I am simply saying it simply won't be in mass like this project is bringing ,and a similar project (HP,or HR)would have to be as big or bigger with equal Tenants.An I really do believe that Houston will most definately see some major upscale store brands(or specialty Brands) in the near future,I just don't think it will be as many or grouped together like victory.I hope this explains it.....I really do apologize if you feel that I mislead you ...that is never my intention.

Alright then. Can you give me two or three examples of stores that fit your revised description? (i.e., stores that are not local creations and that are the second or third locations in the US.) (Most of the shops I have read about are locally-invented stores. So, yeah, they are the "first". That truly says nothing about Dallas, one way or the other.)

[Dallasboi]

Alright then. Can you give me two or three examples of stores that fit your revised description? (i.e., stores that are not local creations and that are the second or third locations in the US.) (Most of the shops I have read about are locally-invented stores. So, yeah, they are the "first". That truly says nothing about Dallas, one way or the other.)

uhhh,.........Lift,.....9ine Group-Ghost bar&,...... 9ine Steakhouse,.......Mandarin oriental(overseas brand)just to name a few off the top of my head.

[Houston19514]

uhhh,.........Lift,.....9ine Group-Ghost bar&,...... 9ine Steakhouse,.......Mandarin oriental(overseas brand)just to name a few off the top of my head.

Before you roll your eyes out of their sockets, you might want to look over your list a little more carefully:

uhhh, Lift - local creation. Does not meet your description.

N9ne Group, I guess I can give you, but when we started this conversation I was thinking in terms of retail stores, not restaurants and bars.

Mandarin Oriental. Not so much. First, I thought the discussion was clearly about retail. I'll allow it to be stretched to include bars and restaurants, but hotels? Whatever. . . The fact is, there are currently 5 Mandarin Oriental Hotels in the US, with another three under development in addition to the one under development in Dallas. So that doesn't fit your description either. (Besides which, I am not yet convinced that building will make it out of the ground any time soon.)

Now don't take any of this the wrong way and go all Dallas on me... I think Victory is going to be a lovely development. But I also think you are trying to make it out to be much more than it is.

[houstonfella]

Well said!!! I thought this therad was bout DFW too, and it's turned into a total penis-party. I knew it had reached full saturation level when someone tried to tell me that Houston isn't hot.

Anyway, a lot of these post have gotten to long to sit and read, but someone mentioned something about Houston's Greenway Plaza being Houston's "Victory" 30 years ago. What is Greenway Plaza and where is it?? I was in Houston over the holiday and have been visiting Houston steadily over the past few years and have never heard of it. Maybe I've been there and didn't know it.

Greenway Plaza

As you can see from the article, it is between Downtown and Uptown. Perhaps at one time it was meant to be like a Victory. It does have hotels, condos, office towers and now the world's largest church

I think the penis party were simply HAIFers having a little fun. No way anyone should take it personally. This never should have been Victory vs. Houston Pavilions. They are two way different projects. Enjoy the Greenway article.

[C2H]

Greenway Plaza

No way anyone should take it personally. This never should have been Victory vs. Houston Pavilions.

The topic starter intended for this to be a discussion over which project would have the most impact on each downtown; meaning which project would fuel the most residents, retail, and city life to come back downtown.

Obviously HP is the clear advantage because it sitis inside CBD, but now that the residential portion was eliminated, that also gives an advantage to Dallas.