Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[Gary]

Comparing Dallas to Dubai. Get real. When Dallas gets a skyscraper taller than Houston, let us know. Until then, Houston is only one of four U.S. cities with 2+ million people. Dallas blows Houston away. Could be. Those winds we had the other day came from Dallas. It was master-minded by Dallasites. I just know it. Dallas .... grow up!

My friend, it was a joke.

[Coaster]

Those people from Dallas are so insecure.

Victory WILL be an asset to Dallas, but anybody who would take to time and energy to keep voting so that the Victory number is higher than the HP number is either

A) Retarded.

Has too much time on his hands.

C) Thinks he has something to prove to people in Houston (what does that tell you?)

D) Deeply insecure about Dallas' shortcomings.

or

E) A combination of all of those.

To "dallas is better that houston":Get a life or get some help.

Best of luck to you and your struggle with reality.

Coast

[NDtexan]

Dallas .... grow up!

Good lord, houstonfella, please take some of your own advice. While some of your fellow houstonians make at least somewhat relevant and poignant remarks, you consistently throw in ridiculous biased posts and boasts that do nothing but provoke people into making comments unrelated to the topic (like me, right here).

By the way, everyone on this site knows Houston is the fourth largest US city in population. Repeating it over and over again impresses noone.

Don't take this too personally, but for the good of the forum (and of the Dallas folks' impression of Houstonians on this site) just lay off the extreme bragging....thanks man

[rantanamo]

will say it for the last time.

HP is more akin to the whole Mercantile dealy in Dallas. Not exactly, but that's what it is most like. Victory is more like your Hardy Yards.

[The Great Hizzy!]

I think I can agree with that comparison. Although, frankly, I'd say the Mercantile may prove to be more like a bigger version of the Rice conversion, and if so, then that would definitely be a benefit to DT Dallas.

[WesternGulf]

I still do not see the Mercantile argument. Then again I never understood the Victory vs Pavilions either. The Mercantile definitely sounds like the Rice conversion just more retail.

[Dallasboi]

I still do not see the Mercantile argument. Then again I never understood the Victory vs Pavilions either. The Mercantile definitely sounds like the Rice conversion just more retail.

They are related because I think that they would both provide the same type of impact on each CBD.And I am not denying the fact that HP might be a tad bit Bigger than Mercantile....but on the same token Merc has residential providing density in that area along with foot traffic,and on top of that we are gettin victory.......Now....About the Hardy rail Yards...........No development that comes on line in houston will be able to match the tenant line up at Victory.....I'm sorry.It can be just as big or heck maybe even bigger(Houston Galleria VS. Dallas')but without equal or superior tenants, It won't provide the same quality experinece. I do admitt that hoston seems to love the "bigger is Better" attitude(Houston Galleria vs Galleria Dallas)...but in this case it's all about the tennt line up..So we need to wait until the tenent release for Hardy Rail Yards and maybe then We can see if it will even be comparable to Victory...right now nothing in texas is or Planned.

[KinkaidAlum]

Gotta agree with you there, Dallasboi.

Getting the W, Ritz-Carlton, and a Mandarin Oriental is HUGE. Of course, the glam and glitz fits Dallas well and is open to about .01% of the population.

[Dallasboi]

Gotta agree with you there, Dallasboi.

Getting the W, Ritz-Carlton, and a Mandarin Oriental is HUGE. Of course, the glam and glitz fits Dallas well and is open to about .01% of the population.

Well as long as it's successful I don't care who can or can't afford it....it still will draw big crowds on any given day and it will simply provide an atmosphere that you can't get anywhere in texas. And I know you had to be joking about the .01% thing because I've already stayed at the W on a Mavs Night and just the partial experience(Screens in Testing Mode)was unbeliveable, it created so much energy on that plaza until I almost couldn't believe it could even get any better than That........I just cant wait until New Years, it will be crazy >

[WesternGulf]

They are related because I think that they would both provide the same type of impact on each CBD.And I am not denying the fact that HP might be a tad bit Bigger than Mercantile....but on the same token Merc has residential providing density in that area along with foot traffic,and on top of that we are gettin victory.......Now....About the Hardy rail Yards...........No development that comes on line in houston will be able to match the tenant line up at Victory.....I'm sorry.It can be just as big or heck maybe even bigger(Houston Galleria VS. Dallas')but without equal or superior tenants, It won't provide the same quality experinece. I do admitt that hoston seems to love the "bigger is Better" attitude(Houston Galleria vs Galleria Dallas)...but in this case it's all about the tennt line up..So we need to wait until the tenent release for Hardy Rail Yards and maybe then We can see if it will even be comparable to Victory...right now nothing in texas is or Planned.

I do not see anything like Victory coming along in Texas either. It is a pretty unique project even on a national level. Victory spans about 75 acres vs Hardy's 47. Victory will have 4000 residences vs Hardy's 3000. Both projects will be connected to downtown by rail. The main difference is the retail and office space portion. Victory TRUMPS Hardy. Victory has about 4 million square feet of retail and office space compared to Hardy's 620,000 square feet. It is basically comparing a neighborhood to a business district. Hopefully both will be more than just a destination.

[KinkaidAlum]

Well as long as it's successful I don't care who can or can't afford it....it still will draw big crowds on any given day and it will simply provide an atmosphere that you can't get anywhere in texas. And I know you had to be joking about the .01% thing because I've already stayed at the W on a Mavs Night and just the partial experience(Screens in Testing Mode)was unbeliveable, it created so much energy on that plaza until I almost couldn't believe it could even get any better than That........I just cant wait until New Years, it will be crazy >

I was talking about the residences. Uber elite prices.

[scarface]

I do not see anything like Victory coming along in Texas either. It is a pretty unique project even on a national level. Victory spans about 75 acres vs Hardy's 47. Victory will have 4000 residences vs Hardy's 3000. Both projects will be connected to downtown by rail. The main difference is the retail and office space portion. Victory TRUMPS Hardy. Victory has about 4 million square feet of retail and office space compared to Hardy's 620,000 square feet. It is basically comparing a neighborhood to a business district. Hopefully both will be more than just a destination.

Why do you think Victory-type developement in Texas will be so scarce. Dallas's tennant line up is incredible but why wouldn't Houston be able to have its turn?

[troyboy]

There is a new article from Steve Brown, the guy who's articles spurred this debate I believe. In there he said that two law firms are moving to these buildings in victory and that it was a good thing for the CBD. He (or someone he interviewed) then said these spaces would be filled by other tenants. Sorry I don't have a link but someone will find it... I have to run.

Jason

I read the article also and some real estate guy just said the spaces in the "older" towers do fill up, it just takes longer. But the thing that blows my mind is the way people on this forum talk one would think all of Dallas' premiere towers are just sitting empty and the market is doomed. If the market is so bad, why do investors quickly buy up these "empty" office towers as soon as they're put on the market. There have been several large towers in DTD sold in the past couple of years and from what I remember, all of them were well leased. Rennaisance Tower, was purchased last week and it's one, if not the, oldest of DTD premiere offices towers....it's 80% leased. Probably the hardest hit tower will be Fountain Place. Hunt Oil will leave a huge empty space in the building. But Hunt Oil left because it desired its own building. Nothing to do with the market...and they stayed downtown. Dallas built huge buildings in the 80's and many of them, so the 15% and 20% vacanies can add up quickly in regard to empty space. But these buildings are by no mean, empty.

If investing the Dallas office market came to halt and 50 story Class A buildings had 80% vacancies, I would feel worried about the DTD office market. But the fact that investors keep buying and building here means there's strong faith in this market. I can't think of many companies that invest in areas where they believe they CAN'T make money.

[zebra]

I actualy like Dallas alot. I am very scare of dallas's dowontown because dtd is quicly becoming "a thing of the past". I hope that downtown can bounce back becuase its about to suffer a hard hit by Victory sucking life from it. i really have high hopes for it though but i'm nervous that downtown dallas is about to be hollowed out.

[Houston19514]

I read the article also and some real estate guy just said the spaces in the "older" towers do fill up, it just takes longer. But the thing that blows my mind is the way people on this forum talk one would think all of Dallas' premiere towers are just sitting empty and the market is doomed. If the market is so bad, why do investors quickly buy up these "empty" office towers as soon as they're put on the market. There have been several large towers in DTD sold in the past couple of years and from what I remember, all of them were well leased. Rennaisance Tower, was purchased last week and it's one, if not the, oldest of DTD premiere offices towers....it's 80% leased. Probably the hardest hit tower will be Fountain Place. Hunt Oil will leave a huge empty space in the building. But Hunt Oil left because it desired its own building. Nothing to do with the market...and they stayed downtown. Dallas built huge buildings in the 80's and many of them, so the 15% and 20% vacanies can add up quickly in regard to empty space. But these buildings are by no mean, empty.

If investing the Dallas office market came to halt and 50 story Class A buildings had 80% vacancies, I would feel worried about the DTD office market. But the fact that investors keep buying and building here means there's strong faith in this market. I can't think of many companies that invest in areas where they believe they CAN'T make money.

If the price is right, a buyer can almost always be found . . . even for a completely empty, dated, inefficient building. Keep in mind that when a building is being bought, it, by definition, is also being sold. So one might just as easily ask "If the market is so good, why do investors sell these 80%-occupied office towers?" (And what you didn't tell us is that the building actually sold twice recently, initially in a multi-city package of buildings, and the initial buyer didn't want anything to do with it; so immediately re-sold it).

Bottom line, bargain basement prices will usually attract buyers. By my calculation, the Renaissance Tower that was purchased last week was purchased for approx. $88/ per square foot, which does seem like a bargain basement price for such a high-profile, well-located tower. Clearly, the new owner hopes the market will improve in downtown Dallas. But at that price, and with a solid tenant base, they probably don't need for it to improve in order to make money.

(And just to clarify, I don't think anyone either said or implied that downtown Dallas was full of literally "empty" buildings. In fact, I have posted the occupancy numbers, clearly showing they are not "empty".)

[Willy1]

I don't know why anyone is so freaked out about DTD's state of being. The DTD area is in an up-swing, not a downward spiral. In recent years, DTD has had high vacancy rates. However, just drive through downtown.... there are cranes and redevelopment projects all over DTD. There are tons of old buildings that are currenly being redeveloped for residential and retail use and these residential conversions are being gobbled up faster than they can hit the market. They can't build them fast enough! DTD is not in dying by any means. For every Hunt Oil that leaves a big vacancy in an older class A building, several smaller companies who can't afford to build their own new building will move to DTD to take the place of the out-going Hunt-like companies. Also, let's not forget that 7-11 is also moving back to downtown Dallas once the One Arts Plaza building is completed. I can't help but wonder if all this talk about DTD dying a slow death is at least partially fed by a little bit of wishful thinking on the part of those who would love to see Dallas bite the dust. I think one thing that might be overlooked here is that Dallas is basically landlocked and maybe what we're seeing with the current building boom, is that Dallas is beginning to grow vertically because land in Dallas proper has become more difficult to find and more expensive to develop. The suburbs surrounding Dallas are also reaching critical mass and because they are so far out from central Dallas, some employers are not willing to move to the "outer rim" because many employees will not move with them because of traffic congestion and higher gas prices. Think about this... If you build a new corporate campus in McKinney you may get more bang for your buck in terms of facilities, but your talent pool is severly limited by the remote location.... So, instead of moving to Southern Oklahoma like some companies have done in the past, many employers are staying in Dallas to take advantage of the higher numbers of potential hires. (And, if you're wondering how I know all this... I work in HR of a fortune 500 company HQ'd in Dallas, specifically dealing with workforce development programs and marketing initiatives... I know local trends.)

[Houston19514]

I don't know why anyone is so freaked out about DTD's state of being. The DTD area is in an up-swing, not a downward spiral. In recent years, DTD has had high vacancy rates. However, just drive through downtown.... there are cranes and redevelopment projects all over DTD. There are tons of old buildings that are currenly being redeveloped for residential and retail use and these residential conversions are being gobbled up faster than they can hit the market. They can't build them fast enough! DTD is not in dying by any means. For every Hunt Oil that leaves a big vacancy in an older class A building, several smaller companies who can't afford to build their own new building will move to DTD to take the place of the out-going Hunt-like companies. Also, let's not forget that 7-11 is also moving back to downtown Dallas once the One Arts Plaza building is completed. I can't help but wonder if all this talk about DTD dying a slow death is at least partially fed by a little bit of wishful thinking on the part of those who would love to see Dallas bite the dust. I think one thing that might be overlooked here is that Dallas is basically landlocked and maybe what we're seeing with the current building boom, is that Dallas is beginning to grow vertically because land in Dallas proper has become more difficult to find and more expensive to develop. The suburbs surrounding Dallas are also reaching critical mass and because they are so far out from central Dallas, some employers are not willing to move to the "outer rim" because many employees will not move with them because of traffic congestion and higher gas prices. Think about this... If you build a new corporate campus in McKinney you may get more bang for your buck in terms of facilities, but your talent pool is severly limited by the remote location.... So, instead of moving to Southern Oklahoma like some companies have done in the past, many employers are staying in Dallas to take advantage of the higher numbers of potential hires. (And, if you're wondering how I know all this... I work in HR of a fortune 500 company HQ'd in Dallas, specifically dealing with workforce development programs and marketing initiatives... I know local trends.)

I don't see anyone "freaking out" and I also don't think I've seen anyone predicting the "death" of DTD. This has all been in the context of answering the question of whether the Victory project and developments in Uptown help or hurt DTD, specifically the office market in DTD. Your discussion of residential development in DTD and moving employees to southern Oklahoma or McKinney barely seems relevant. (And FWIW, your point about an office park in McKinney being limited by its remote location, is exactly the point made by some of your Dallas confreres about the problems hampering DTD.)

[Dallasboi]

I don't know why anyone is so freaked out about DTD's state of being. The DTD area is in an up-swing, not a downward spiral. In recent years, DTD has had high vacancy rates. However, just drive through downtown.... there are cranes and redevelopment projects all over DTD. There are tons of old buildings that are currenly being redeveloped for residential and retail use and these residential conversions are being gobbled up faster than they can hit the market. They can't build them fast enough! DTD is not in dying by any means. For every Hunt Oil that leaves a big vacancy in an older class A building, several smaller companies who can't afford to build their own new building will move to DTD to take the place of the out-going Hunt-like companies. Also, let's not forget that 7-11 is also moving back to downtown Dallas once the One Arts Plaza building is completed. I can't help but wonder if all this talk about DTD dying a slow death is at least partially fed by a little bit of wishful thinking on the part of those who would love to see Dallas bite the dust. I think one thing that might be overlooked here is that Dallas is basically landlocked and maybe what we're seeing with the current building boom, is that Dallas is beginning to grow vertically because land in Dallas proper has become more difficult to find and more expensive to develop. The suburbs surrounding Dallas are also reaching critical mass and because they are so far out from central Dallas, some employers are not willing to move to the "outer rim" because many employees will not move with them because of traffic congestion and higher gas prices. Think about this... If you build a new corporate campus in McKinney you may get more bang for your buck in terms of facilities, but your talent pool is severly limited by the remote location.... So, instead of moving to Southern Oklahoma like some companies have done in the past, many employers are staying in Dallas to take advantage of the higher numbers of potential hires. (And, if you're wondering how I know all this... I work in HR of a fortune 500 company HQ'd in Dallas, specifically dealing with workforce development programs and marketing initiatives... I know local trends.)

And with that being said..........Houstonians should no longer use Dallas' vacancy rates as an excuse to say that DTD is dying .We are clearly Positioning ourselves to lead the State in the near future....and we are the THIRD largest city in Texas....Go figure

[troyboy]

If DTD is dying, it's having the most rejuvenating death I've ever seen. Outside of my southern downtown home near Farmer's Market, there's a project going up on every corner. I walk to work past construction site after construction site. Downtown is one big construction zone. I just noticed a mixed-use project sign newly placed behind my office building monday. They keep saying DTD is dying yet three companies are building shiny new downtown headquarters.

I think it's simply that in spite of everything they (forum members) may believe about DTD, everything they see is to the contrary.

I lived in Houston (Surgarland) for a month after my parents retired there. I really liked the city a lot (still do) and had every intention of staying there. I had no job yet and a friend from DC had just relocated to Dallas and invited me up to check it out for a while. Although there were many things going on in and around downtown Houston, Dallas blew me away. It seemed the whole city was under construction, much more than what was going on in Houston. That was a huge part of what drew me to Dallas, it seemed much more dynamic than Houston and had a lot more going on . It seemed the city just "thought bigger". That and the fact that I didn't like the constant sweating from the Houston humidity...even in November.

I think the Houstonians on the forum just really want to see Dallas fail. Which is really sad when both cities have a lot to offer. I visit the Dallas forum also and the hate (I call it insecurity) is much, much stronger on the Houston side. Houston doesn't even come up that often on the Dallas forum. Go figure.

[RedScare]

It seemed the city just "thought bigger".

I agree Dallas "thinks bigger". Houston just IS bigger.

Oh, and sorry about your sweating problem. But, my 74 degree "heat" suits me just fine.

I am so glad that you Dallasites are so proud of your downtown. Because, frankly, if it wasn't for you guys, NO ONE would be there. I never went to DT Dallas when I lived there, and my friends don't take me there when I visit (They don't have much to say nice about Victory either, but I'll leave that alone, since Victory is largely unbuilt). Fact is, I've never seen any listings of anything in DT Dallas that would make me want to go there anyway. But, that matters not, because you guys love it. So enjoy! And quit worrying what we think.

BTW, Houston doesn't come up on Dallas forums, because we don't care enough to even read them. Funny how that works.

[Dallasboi]

I agree Dallas "thinks bigger". Houston just IS bigger.

Oh, and sorry about your sweating problem. But, my 74 degree "heat" suits me just fine.

I am so glad that you Dallasites are so proud of your downtown. Because, frankly, if it wasn't for you guys, NO ONE would be there. I never went to DT Dallas when I lived there, and my friends don't take me there when I visit (They don't have much to say nice about Victory either, but I'll leave that alone, since Victory is largely unbuilt). Fact is, I've never seen any listings of anything in DT Dallas that would make me want to go there anyway. But, that matters not, because you guys love it. So enjoy! And quit worrying what we think.

BTW, Houston doesn't come up on Dallas forums, because we don't care enough to even read them. Funny how that works.

Oh quit pouting Red......

[RedScare]

Pouting? I'm laughing!

[Houston19514]

If DTD is dying, it's having the most rejuvenating death I've ever seen. Outside of my southern downtown home near Farmer's Market, there's a project going up on every corner. I walk to work past construction site after construction site. Downtown is one big construction zone. I just noticed a mixed-use project sign newly placed behind my office building monday. They keep saying DTD is dying yet three companies are building shiny new downtown headquarters.

I think it's simply that in spite of everything they (forum members) may believe about DTD, everything they see is to the contrary.

I lived in Houston (Surgarland) for a month after my parents retired there. I really liked the city a lot (still do) and had every intention of staying there. I had no job yet and a friend from DC had just relocated to Dallas and invited me up to check it out for a while. Although there were many things going on in and around downtown Houston, Dallas blew me away. It seemed the whole city was under construction, much more than what was going on in Houston. That was a huge part of what drew me to Dallas, it seemed much more dynamic than Houston and had a lot more going on . It seemed the city just "thought bigger". That and the fact that I didn't like the constant sweating from the Houston humidity...even in November.

I think the Houstonians on the forum just really want to see Dallas fail. Which is really sad when both cities have a lot to offer. I visit the Dallas forum also and the hate (I call it insecurity) is much, much stronger on the Houston side. Houston doesn't even come up that often on the Dallas forum. Go figure.

I'm not sure what the psychological term for this is, but I am finding it amusing that the only ones saying anything about DTD "dying" are the Dallasites. Hmmmm... ;-)

[Dallasboi]

Pouting? I'm laughing!

I might be wrong ......but I think that even if you did like something about Dallas you would take it to your grave because you would feel as if you were cheating on Houston....That's my opinion...Please correct me.Please tell me that you do know that not all things in Dallas suck(like most Houstonians say)and that Just because Houston is the 4th largest city dosent mean that it is automatically superior to all other cities that fall behind the 4th largest rank.Please tell me that you will give victory it's props when you visit(I Know you will visit) instead of pointing out all of the things you thought was bad about it.And last but not least....please be willing to admitt that Victory Blows HP away..........cause it does. I know it will take alot for you to do but do at least two of them and I will be Happy.

[troyboy]

I agree Dallas "thinks bigger". Houston just IS bigger.

BTW, Houston doesn't come up on Dallas forums, because we don't care enough to even read them. Funny how that works.

Now I'm laughing. You guys (Houston Forum) know more about what's going on in Dallas than I do...and I live here. I don't know what you guys read, but it seems if Dallas is mentioned, you certainly pay attention. I easily admit I have an interest in Houston. I have family there now and visit often, and I generally like the city. If I didn't like it, or thought it was a horrible place, I certainly wouldn't waste my time going on a forum and constantly trying to badmouth it. If you dislike Dallas so much and have little interest in it, why bother commenting on these threads. I have very litte interest in El Paso, so I certainly don't spend my time reading about or debating the aspects of the city. If you don't care or have such little interest in Dallas, I would think you would spend you time and energy on a city that interests you. Strange how someone who doesn't care about something has so much to say about it.

[Houston19514]

Sheesh, Dallasboi and Troyboy... Take a breath; yeah, a nice deep breath. Redscare was just playin' with ya. and man, did you two fall in, hook, line, and sinker, as they say. Let's try to stay rational, and on subject now, shall we?

[tierwestah]

It's crazy. Dallas peeps get so defenseve. We all are family. We in texas maan. dallasboi, lighten up.

No doubt dallas victory will blow hp away, but its not in downtown so it won't change downtown dallas. That is what this topic is about. Don't get mad that Victory is a neighbrhood that is situated outside of dtd. DTD will be the shadow of the Victory area.

If you think about it, HP is just a missing key to the victory like develpment Houston has had for years.

I'm not braggin or boosting but we've had our renaissance with the opening of the Toyota Center, MMP, BallPark Lofts, Inn @ the Ballpark GRB expansion and The Hilton Americas. Yet, we're continuing a renaissance with a new park, Park Tower, and when the HP is complete, it will be even more vibrant. Hardy Rail Yard/Intermodal Station will just be the icing on the cake.

Someone said earlier that Dallas is more dynamic? I personally think that Victory will be no more than what Houston has already started to do INSIDE its downtown. All we have left to do is just fill in the missing element..... retail.

Word from:

tierwestah jones

[Dallasboi]

It's crazy. Dallas peeps get so defenseve. We all are family. We in texas maan. dallasboi, lighten up.

No doubt dallas victory will blow hp away, but its not in downtown so it won't change downtown dallas. That is what this topic is about. Don't get mad that Victory is a neighbrhood that is situated outside of dtd. DTD will be the shadow of the Victory area.

If you think about it, HP is just a missing key to the victory like develpment Houston has had for years.

I'm not braggin or boosting but we've had our renaissance with the opening of the Toyota Center, MMP, BallPark Lofts, Inn @ the Ballpark GRB expansion and The Hilton Americas. Yet, we're continuing a renaissance with a new park, Park Tower, and when the HP is complete, it will be even more vibrant. Hardy Rail Yard/Intermodal Station will just be the icing on the cake.

Someone said earlier that Dallas is more dynamic? I personally think that Victory will be no more than what Houston has already started to do INSIDE its downtown. All we have left to do is just fill in the missing element..... retail.

Word from:

tierwestah jones

Wow....I didn't think I was being harsh.But I do apologize if I offended anyone....The truth does hurt I see.And Tierwester we have international brands in Victory not chains.So it will be hard to match that.I think every store in Victory will be the second or third in the United States.That's because International brands go to the hottest markets first.And if Dallas is getting all of these stores at once...it will be a long while before that many international brands will want to open more stores in the same state...dallas will be the place to see in texas in about 3 years tops. HP will have just as much impact as The Mercantile wich is situated right in the heart of DTD which is right in the heart of Texas. And once again about the Hardy Rail Yards.What makes this different from any normal shopping development any where in the U.S? It's Size? Because without special Tenants(something thats new or scarce in the reigon)The development is not special.It becomes just a large big outdoor shopping strip full of Big lots and Target and Best buy and Chilis,and Pappa's Bar B-Q. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

[tamtagon]

BTW, Houston doesn't come up on Dallas forums, because we don't care enough to even read them. Funny how that works.

I've always wanted more Houston urban development discussions at dallasmetropolis, but it does seems the knowledgeable participants mostly keep to HAIF.

[banking214]

In other news, I heard W was looking at Austin for locations. This is the only thing I could find.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/.../30/story1.html

Why can't Houston lure high end hotels like this?