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Mixed-Use Parking Garage At 820 Main St.


MontroseNeighborhoodCafe

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You're in the middle of a downtown business district, not a master planned community. Next you'll want to ban honking, future construction that will block your views, the smell of urine on the sidewalks, drinking fountains that don't output potable water, the noise from construction, noise from METRO buses, etc.

No, actually we are all used to the above occurrences and expect that in downtown. It comes with the territory, so to speak. Never mind that during the nonstop construction of this thing, 7 days a week (yes, including Sunday), early, early in the morning and late into the night, often breaking the guidelines on noise restriction, we've been relatively silent.

This is, of course, an architectural forum. So this is addressed.

If you truly understand the complaint, it is not just that we don't share the same visual tastes or definitions as the developors on "architecturally significant" parking garages, but this is actually interfering w/ our quality of life. I can only personally state that as my (and many others) bedroom window looks out onto this, the lights emanating are so incredibly intense that I have had miserably little sleep, and have had to leave work early b/c I can not function optimally. Other residents in this building include the working, young children, retirees....well, just people. No building, no matter where it is, should adversely affect the quality of life and health of others.

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The really disgusting thing that people are forgetting is that this wasn't built to be a stand alone revenue generator for Hines. This garage was built solely to service Pennzoil Place. The $$$ Hines will make isn't off of random monthly contracts they might sign with folks who don't work at Pennzoil Place but rather in the increased lease rates they will be able to negotiate with future tenants (and the increased ability to attract tenants).

Would there be more outrage from you developer-apologists types if this garage had been built adjoining/adjacent to Pennzoil Place? Would it bother y'all if one of Houston's most recognizeable architectural gems was essentially defaced?

It definitely bothers me that Hines would be willing to attach the company name to something so hated but NOT next to one of their projects they are so proud of (Pennzoil Place). That is NOT a good neighbor. Hines is very good with updating their website with new projects. Funny, this garage isn't proudly displayed.

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Hines, owns that piece of property and is free (within city guidelines) to do what he wants with it just as Violet is free to do with hers. Downtown residents own very little property as compared to the businesses Downtown. Violet made the conscious decision to move Downtown and hopefully had some idea of the problems that happen Downtown.

IMO people can have goals but at the same time, the goals must be realistic. She made the decision to move downtown fully knowing she has no guaranteed control of anything else. Is she regretting her decision? That is for her to decide.

Yes just like those who move into neighborhoods with active freight rail tracks. Houston has many industrial areas inner loop that require freight rail. If the City of Houston decides to somehow ban freight rail traffic, what signal would that send to businesses (requiring rail) that may be looking to relocate to Houston? It sure wouldn't be positive and might even cause other businesses to think that Houston isn't supportive of businesses.

If her window treatments don't keep out the light, then maybe she should invest in some that do.

Lucifer! :o

:lol::lol::lol:

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If you truly understand the complaint, it is not just that we don't share the same visual tastes or definitions as the developors on "architecturally significant" parking garages, but this is actually interfering w/ our quality of life. I can only personally state that as my (and many others) bedroom window looks out onto this, the lights emanating are so incredibly intense that I have had miserably little sleep, and have had to leave work early b/c I can not function optimally. Other residents in this building include the working, young children, retirees....well, just people. No building, no matter where it is, should adversely affect the quality of life and health of others.

sounds like better window coverings would solve your problem.

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Hines, owns that piece of property and is free (within city guidelines) to do what he wants with it just as Violet is free to do with hers. Downtown residents own very little property as compared to the businesses Downtown. Violet made the conscious decision to move Downtown and hopefully had some idea of the problems that happen Downtown.

IMO people can have goals but at the same time, the goals must be realistic. She made the decision to move downtown fully knowing she has no guaranteed control of anything else. Is she regretting her decision? That is for her to decide.

Yes just like those who move into neighborhoods with active freight rail tracks. Houston has many industrial areas inner loop that require freight rail. If the City of Houston decides to somehow ban freight rail traffic, what signal would that send to businesses (requiring rail) that may be looking to relocate to Houston? It sure wouldn't be positive and might even cause other businesses to think that Houston isn't supportive of businesses.

If her window treatments don't keep out the light, then maybe she should invest in some that do.

You are correct with everything you stated except for paragraph #3. In almost all cases, the freight tracks would have been pre-existing to most current home owners who live near them. That is not the case with this garage. What makes it worse is that Hines sold the owners of Commerce Towers, the current residents of Commerce Towers, the entire downtown district and City of Houston a pack of lies. While fibbing about what you intend to build isn't necessarily a crime it is clearly not the right way to operate a business.

That said, just because Hines has the right to build what they want doesn't mean they should. Hines is no better than that horrible woman in the Old 6th Ward who ripped down a historic home despite the pleas of her neighbors and now uses the lot to store a Winebago behind a chain link fence.

I don't consider things like being a good neighbor, caring about aesthetic quality, and caring about the rights of others as much as you care about your own unrealistic goals.

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You are correct with everything you stated except for paragraph #3. In almost all cases, the freight tracks would have been pre-existing to most current home owners who live near them. That is not the case with this garage. What makes it worse is that Hines sold the owners of Commerce Towers, the current residents of Commerce Towers, the entire downtown district and City of Houston a pack of lies. While fibbing about what you intend to build isn't necessarily a crime it is clearly not the right way to operate a business.

That said, just because Hines has the right to build what they want doesn't mean they should. Hines is no better than that horrible woman in the Old 6th Ward who ripped down a historic home despite the pleas of her neighbors and now uses the lot to store a Winebago behind a chain link fence.

I don't consider things like being a good neighbor, caring about aesthetic quality, and caring about the rights of others as much as you care about your own unrealistic goals.

i can see your point about pre-existing, but at the same time the area wasn't restricted, therefore they had no guarantee of what could be erected. unfortunately if Hines misled the community, there isn't a law against it. IF he did that it sure would leave a bad taste in my mouth too. I'm sure he'll do another project that more will rave about on HAIF and this will be forgotten.

i'm with you on the good neighbor/aesthetics/etc, i try (IMO not always succeeding though). with aesthetics especially, it is so subjective that getting everyone to agree is difficult. I personally think much of the new construction is not aesthetically pleasing, but the builders/developers are selling them. so they appeal to someone, just not me.

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Hines, owns that piece of property and is free (within city guidelines) to do what he wants with it just as Violet is free to do with hers. Downtown residents own very little property as compared to the businesses Downtown. Violet made the conscious decision to move Downtown and hopefully had some idea of the problems that happen Downtown.

IMO people can have goals but at the same time, the goals must be realistic. She made the decision to move downtown fully knowing she has no guaranteed control of anything else. Is she regretting her decision? That is for her to decide.

Yes just like those who move into neighborhoods with active freight rail tracks. Houston has many industrial areas inner loop that require freight rail. If the City of Houston decides to somehow ban freight rail traffic, what signal would that send to businesses (requiring rail) that may be looking to relocate to Houston? It sure wouldn't be positive and might even cause other businesses to think that Houston isn't supportive of businesses.

If her window treatments don't keep out the light, then maybe she should invest in some that do.

Musicman, you're right generally about what you said. However, that point could transcend into non-deed restricted areas of the city as well. If Walgreens wants to build in a neighborhood that's not deed-protected and their parking lot lights adverse affect the homeowners, it's true that the homeowners' only recourse is to buy something to shield their windows from the lights. Such is life in Houston. But that doesn't mean that's the way is should be.

fernz, maybe I wasn't clear. My point was that everything doesn't have to be solely about financial return. Sometimes it can be about being a good neighbor. There's a whole thread about this regarding the CVS in Midtown. City ordinance says basically "make sure your building stands and doesn't kill anyone, and is setback x amount of feet from the street". Based only on financial return, if I'm CVS, I take the cheapest materials that will stand, use the cheapest labor, and the cheapest off-the-shelf design in order to build my building. Why go through the added expense of brick or copper awnings when it does nothing but add to my construction costs and take away from my bottom line? Some of it, I think, has to do with fitting in with the area--translated to basically being a good neighbor.

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However, that point could transcend into non-deed restricted areas of the city as well. If Walgreens wants to build in a neighborhood that's not deed-protected and their parking lot lights adverse affect the homeowners, it's true that the homeowners' only recourse is to buy something to shield their windows from the lights. Such is life in Houston. But that doesn't mean that's the way is should be.

i concur Gov that is what we have. In Tx, restrictions on property are frowned upon. But the state does provide a means for a neighborhood/area to provide protection via the state property code. Is it easy to do? No. Is it worth doing? I say yes but it is very time consuming.

We've all heard the dreaded Z word which might provide some assistance (keeping businesses out of residential areas), however it most likely wouldn't be specific as to resolve violet's issue. If it were that specific, property owners/developers would scream.

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violet: theniche is our resident baiter. Any developement-no matter how ugly and built on a pack of lies is good enough for him. I find it easier to ignore him-if only the ignore function worked when he's replied to. BTW, he actually seems to think he IS the devil instead of just his advocate-swelled head syndrome, I suppose.

I challenge you to cite where in this thread that I've said that the parking garage looks nice, that Hines didn't lie, or that anything was "good enough for [me]".

I further challenge you and anyone else on here to render sound advice that'll get something constructive done to remedy the issue.

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violet: theniche is our resident baiter. Any developement-no matter how ugly and built on a pack of lies is good enough for him. I find it easier to ignore him-if only the ignore function worked when he's replied to. BTW, he actually seems to think he IS the devil instead of just his advocate-swelled head syndrome, I suppose.

Is he really? I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Granted, I disagree with Niche's presentation of his views on this topic. Still though, I would hardly call him a "baiter", much less the resident baiter.

Why are you always so quick to cast stones Nmain?

You're in the middle of a downtown business district, not a master planned community. Next you'll want to ban honking, future construction that will block your views, the smell of urine on the sidewalks, drinking fountains that don't output potable water, the noise from construction, noise from METRO buses, etc.

I have to whole-heartedly agree with this opinion. If you choose to live in the densest commercial district of a city, I doubt you're ever going to be given much leeway as a resident - nor should you. Our downtown is a place of business first, entertainment second, and finally third - residence.

You have to remind yourself, this is Houston - not Manhattan.

Edited by Jeebus
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You have to remind yourself, this is Houston - not Manhattan.

Manhattan had even less restrictions than Houston when it was first settled. It's only through the efforts of its residents that the protections they have on the books came about.

While there's a time for bowing and scraping, sometimes a bit of old-fashioned rabble-rousing rhetoric is called for, too.

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You have to remind yourself, this is Houston - not Manhattan.

No, it's not Manhattan, and it's certainly not Denver or Indianapolis or any other smaller metropolitan city that has a vibrant, progressive, revitalized downtown area. Realize the short-sightedness of placing a blight such as this in the heart of downtown. What could've enhanced this area, has now distracted the beauties of true historical buildings. Nevermind that its presence right on the lightrail, completely mocks the efforts for reducing pollution and congestion in downtown (this garage reportedly will house 950+ cars). Efforts to encourage more residents in downtown, will in effect, encourage further retail and entertainment businesses. NOt to mention, giving some assistance to the problems of urban sprawl. Most of us who live in downtown attempt to do everything in downtown (shopping, medical/dental care, entertainment, eat, etc.). As it is, with the very self-serving nature of a few, Houston will only slowly make progress into what it could ultimately be.

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You have to remind yourself, this is Houston - not Manhattan.

No, it's not Manhattan, and it's certainly not Denver or Indianapolis or any other smaller metropolitan city that has a vibrant, progressive, revitalized downtown area. Realize the short-sightedness of placing a blight such as this in the heart of downtown. What could've enhanced this area, has now distracted the beauties of true historical buildings. Nevermind that its presence right on the lightrail, completely mocks the efforts for reducing pollution and congestion in downtown (this garage reportedly will house 950+ cars). Efforts to encourage more residents in downtown, will in effect, encourage further retail and entertainment businesses. NOt to mention, giving some assistance to the problems of urban sprawl. Most of us who live in downtown attempt to do everything in downtown (shopping, medical/dental care, entertainment, eat, etc.). As it is, with the very self-serving nature of a few, Houston will only slowly make progress into what it could ultimately be.

Someone earlier in this thread suggested nuisance laws. That appears to be your best option. If I were you, I would strongly encourage your condo board to look into actions based on the nuisance laws (either city ordinances, state statutes or the common law). If the lighting is as bad as you say, you should have a pretty strong case. Surely, there is a lawyer or two living in the building that could do some preliminary research on the issue. Houstonians should not be willing to accept the "this is Houston, not Manhattan" excuse. Indeed, if being in Houston, not Manhattan, has any meaning at all, it should mean a better overall quality of life, not uninhabitable.

(FWIW, I am a strongly free-market, anti-zoning kind of guy. Whatever the buildings looks like (and I have not seen it), I guess we have to live with, however disappointing it might be, and however much we were deceived in the process. BUT the lighting issue is another matter. Nobody has the right to create conditions that spill over on to their neighbors property, making their neighbors' lives miserable, or interfering with their business or homes.)

And, BTW, where is Nancy Sarnoff on this? Is she really going to just let this building stand without any comment? Does she not realize she has been made the fool, the stooge, if you will? Do we have to issue a press release to her fax machine (i.e., write the story for her) to get her to notice it and cover the story?

Edited by Houston19514
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You have to remind yourself, this is Houston - not Manhattan.

Realize the short-sightedness of placing a blight such as this in the heart of downtown. What could've enhanced this area, has now distracted the beauties of true historical buildings. Nevermind that its presence right on the lightrail, completely mocks the efforts for reducing pollution and congestion in downtown (this garage reportedly will house 950+ cars). Efforts to encourage more residents in downtown, will in effect, encourage further retail and entertainment businesses. NOt to mention, giving some assistance to the problems of urban sprawl. Most of us who live in downtown attempt to do everything in downtown (shopping, medical/dental care, entertainment, eat, etc.). As it is, with the very self-serving nature of a few, Houston will only slowly make progress into what it could ultimately be.

So how does this "blight" prevent downtown from growing? how does it prevent you from seeking shopping, medical/dental care, entertainment, eats....downtown? putting parking along the light rail is a bad thing?

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You have to remind yourself, this is Houston - not Manhattan.

I don't really understand the point. Is it that we should accept uglier buildings, or have lower standards, because we are not Manhattan? Of course this is not Manhattan. No one said it should be.

So how does this "blight" prevent downtown from growing? how does it prevent you from seeking shopping, medical/dental care, entertainment, eats....downtown? putting parking along the light rail is a bad thing?

Putting blight along the light rail is a bad thing in the long run. In the short fun, no, it doesn't prevent downtown from growing. But that doesn't mean it is a good thing. Isn't there value in having good architecture, or at least architecture that isn't obtrusive like this garage, regardless of whether it creates growth?

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Putting blight along the light rail is a bad thing in the long run. In the short fun, no, it doesn't prevent downtown from growing. But that doesn't mean it is a good thing. Isn't there value in having good architecture, or at least architecture that isn't obtrusive like this garage, regardless of whether it creates growth?

Good or bad is a matter of opinion. I'm sure the City supports Mr. Hines in this endeavor solely on the increased taxes they will be receiving. I agree having good architecture is the ideal but there would be argument there as well as to what is good or bad. We see that all the time here. I personally think this particular parking garage is lost in Downtown. i'd consider the one at main and elgin more visually disturbing. METRO has even encouraged parking garages along the rail.

I don't think i would use the word blight to describe it. i'd reserve that for a crack house or a house falling apart.

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Well, usually there is room for disagreement on what is good and bad architecture, but in this case I think we can all safely agree it is rubbish. We can have standards - relativism only goes so far.

Maybe it truly doesn't fall to the level of "blight" now, but once the block across the street is redeveloped, and it is surrounded by much nicer buildings, then it will truly be blight on the neighborhood so I think the label is fair.

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Well, usually there is room for disagreement on what is good and bad architecture, but in this case I think we can all safely agree it is rubbish. We can have standards - relativism only goes so far.

i disagree with rubbish too. :)

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Has anybody actually talked to Hines to find out for sure if the building is visually complete, or if something else is planned? Are they at least going to paint it, or do they plan on leaving it unfinished looking? Does anybody really know, or is it just speculation?

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I don't really understand the point. Is it that we should accept uglier buildings, or have lower standards, because we are not Manhattan? Of course this is not Manhattan. No one said it should be.

Certain attitudes about downtown living on this board have lead to that assumption. There's quite an air of arrogance in this thread about how evil the Hines company is and how misfortuned the residents of Commerce Towers are.

I can understand the lights shining into the windows, especially since the resdential building was there first. But beyond that, and without zoning, you still have to consider the garage forward progress - whether you like its design or not. Its creating 950 additional parking places that were not there before. At most a surface lot would have held at most one-tenth of that amount.

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Efforts to encourage more residents in downtown, will in effect, encourage further retail and entertainment businesses. NOt to mention, giving some assistance to the problems of urban sprawl.

Efforts to encourge more residents downtown are futile anyway without the development of more residential buildings! And even if you could cram 50,000 people downtown, its not going to dent Houston's suburban sprawl.

As it is, with the very self-serving nature of a few, Houston will only slowly make progress into what it could ultimately be.

The only thing more Houston could do at this point is densify itself with the addition of more highrise residential, and more public transit. For a post WW2 city in the south built on endless swamps and cow pastures, I really think we're doing okay. I don't see one non-architectural prize-winning garage on Main St. spiralling this city of control.

I'd stick with the lights in the window arguement personally.

Edited by Jeebus
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Has anybody actually talked to Hines to find out for sure if the building is visually complete, or if something else is planned? Are they at least going to paint it, or do they plan on leaving it unfinished looking? Does anybody really know, or is it just speculation?

I chilled out about the garage when I passed by it yesterday. There's no way this thing can be done. The concrete is still quite raw looking, and the windows for the retail is pretty dusty. They've started lighting it but optimism says that they are not done yet.

At least they put awnings over the retail portion.

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it would be really neat if we could say that for a first time...

just sayin :)

Throw my $.02 in on this one... On musicman's side, I agree there is a big difference between Great and Rubbish... It is a nice new parking garage, taking open land, with retail available, but a better facade and a better location wouldn't be a bad thing. But, with GovernorAggie, no way this thing is complete, it looks sooo raw yet.

As for great parking garages, how about floors 2-9 of Two Shell Plaza, all parking garage, no idea from street level.

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Throw my $.02 in on this one... On musicman's side, I agree there is a big difference between Great and Rubbish... It is a nice new parking garage, taking open land, with retail available, but a better facade and a better location wouldn't be a bad thing. But, with GovernorAggie, no way this thing is complete, it looks sooo raw yet.

As for great parking garages, how about floors 2-9 of Two Shell Plaza, all parking garage, no idea from street level.

well, they made this land "open"

concealment is nice, i guess, but this isn't topped out with office space, either - since this is an independent structure it has nothing in which to blend, so why not make it interesting. Hines had the means, i assume...

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