METRO Next - 2040 Vision

[102IAHexpress]

Tales of Subway Hell: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/02/11/nyregion/mta-subway-tweets.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

 

And this from the only city in America where rail makes economic sense. 

[skwatra]

you could make the same slideshow called "Tales of Highway Hell" in Houston and have equivalent scenes and stats.

[august948]

Doesn't it make you glad you can take your own private vehicle, as clean as you want it with a/c and radio to listen to instead of being stuck in an overcrowded train, or worse?

[samagon]

good article to highlight that lack of funding for public transportation isn't just a Houston problem, thanks for the link.

Edited February 11, 2019 by samagon

[skwatra]

I don't see the value of comparing Houston and NYC. we've been down that path many times on this forum and nothing really comes out of it. I know I did respond as such, i couldn't help it... But when i used to spend a lot of time in new york, i only took the subway to get to certain special destinations, day to day stuff everything i could possibly need was within a 10-15 minute walk.

 

To your question on taking a private vehicle and the advantages - yes i do like having that option in Houston. But I would like other options as well. I used to live in Montrose and would bike everywhere. Being able to take the bayou downtown and feel safe doing so even with my toddlers in a trailer was amazing. Walking to the red line and taking it to Reliant and not having to worry about parking, being able to have a few beers, and get out with no traffic was amazing. Walking to Dallas St and taking a single bus to an Astros game with my kid who loves to ride was amazing. I only drove to work (Clear Lake, the park and ride would have taken 1+ hour to go against traffic and I would still have needed my bike when I got to Bay Area) and it was amazing. BTW when I did live by work and was taking grad school classes at UH I did take the park and ride and walked to campus twice a week, for that 4-5:30 class. Coming back was much nicer in a bus where i could read and not have to worry about the gulf freeway.

 

now we moved to Bellaire, still inside the loop. To get downtown on a single bus to the med center, then the train would take an hour. To go 8 miles. And I picked a destination right on the rail line. 40 minutes to get to Reliant, 4.5 miles away. There are better ways to move around more efficiently, and it will take a combination of smart methods that should ideally relieve traffic and congestion, reduce emissions, and provide multiple options for residents.

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, august948 said:

Doesn't it make you glad you can take your own private vehicle, as clean as you want it with a/c and radio to listen to instead of being stuck in an overcrowded train, or worse?

 

I'd honestly rather read a book and do a little people-watching than deal with road rage and the risk of accidents.

 

[Some one]

An aging transportaton system that's way different from ours is breaking down due to a lack of fundings? Color me shocked.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Some one

[cspwal]

Los Angeles is probably a more apt comparison for Houston than NYC - it has a huge car culture, is a very large city and Metro area, yet it has been able to develop a better transportation network, with more options that just local buses

[102IAHexpress]

4 hours ago, skwatra said:

you could make the same slideshow called "Tales of Highway Hell" in Houston and have equivalent scenes and stats.

 

You could. But it would be misleading. NYC commuters have the longest commute time in the Country. Houston does not. But nice try. 

 

A nice visual aid of the facts: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/average-commute-time-by-state.html

 

[august948]

2 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

I'd honestly rather read a book and do a little people-watching than deal with road rage and the risk of accidents.

 

 

To each his own, but I have to say the people watching on the bus and light rail isn't the best.

[skwatra]

35 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

You could. But it would be misleading. NYC commuters have the longest commute time in the Country. Houston does not. But nice try. 

 

A nice visual aid of the facts: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/average-commute-time-by-state.html

 

posting a story about the most densely populated region in the country and their subway woes is misleading. And one graphic based on some census sample that's not defined is misleading too. My further discussion was what life is like getting around Houston and how congested and slow things have gotten in the last decade. LA is a better example, and I feel like that now - rush 'hour' has expanded and the reverse commute has faded. No matter where you are or what direction you're going between 3-8pm its crowded and slow and I would like more options.

[august948]

1 hour ago, skwatra said:

posting a story about the most densely populated region in the country and their subway woes is misleading. And one graphic based on some census sample that's not defined is misleading too. My further discussion was what life is like getting around Houston and how congested and slow things have gotten in the last decade. LA is a better example, and I feel like that now - rush 'hour' has expanded and the reverse commute has faded. No matter where you are or what direction you're going between 3-8pm its crowded and slow and I would like more options.

 

I agree with you on that, the biggest issue we have by far is getting people in and out of town on weekday mornings and afternoons.  That's where the focus of transportation improvements should be.

[102IAHexpress]

5 hours ago, skwatra said:

My further discussion was what life is like getting around Houston and how congested and slow things have gotten in the last decade. LA is a better example, and I feel like that now - rush 'hour' has expanded and the reverse commute has faded. No matter where you are or what direction you're going between 3-8pm its crowded and slow and I would like more options.

 

You are entitled to your anecdotal evidence. And I'm not suggesting you should ignore your personal observations. However, the fact is Houston's commute time relative to other cities, has actually gotten faster not slower. If you have facts that suggest otherwise, then please post them. 

[skwatra]

9 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

You are entitled to your anecdotal evidence. And I'm not suggesting you should ignore your personal observations. However, the fact is Houston's commute time relative to other cities, has actually gotten faster not slower. If you have facts that suggest otherwise, then please post them. 

 

1. Houston commute times relative to other cities is not relative to my argument and I know we have to look at other models to compare, but what is important is Houston's commute times relative to 10 years ago and what to expect 10 years from now.

2. Chron article from 2018 states "Houston drivers traveled an average of 27.3 minutes to work" and from 2015 a Chron article states "Solo drivers take 25.8 minutes to reach the office". An almost 6% increase in 3 years. Of course I wouldn't count this as evidence, as they are two different studies and they likely use variables which could be altered to give you very different numbers, or they surveyed some ridiculous sample size like 100 people which is just as good as my "anecdotal evidence" which includes how all the real Houstonians I know that live and work around the city have been impacted by transportation and traffic.

3. If you have the actual source data from your visualcapitalist commute data that would be interesting, but I can't find anything. I don't think any facts have actually been presented in this discussion.

[cspwal]

Also New York is the largest metro area in the world by size, in the country by population, by a good amount.  20 million people spread out over 4500 sq miles of urban land are going to have some long commute times no matter what.  Just NYC by itself has 8.5 million people and covers 300 sq miles

 

Houston is big and sprawling, but still is way smaller - only 6.5 million people across 1600 sq miles of urban land.  The metro areas are closer (NYC at 13,000 sq mi, Houston at 10,000 sq mi), but that just illustrates how much larger New York is than Houston - 3.5x the people in not much more space.  Of course they will have longer commute times

[102IAHexpress]

 

1 hour ago, cspwal said:

Of course they will have longer commute times

 

NYC also has the biggest, fastest, most frequent, heavily used, train system in America. It's supposed to be the "best." Funny, I thought more trains=less congestion. 

 

No matter how you slice it, Houston's congestion is not that bad. Congestion should be measured by not only automobile congestion but the combined congestion of automobile and public transportation congestion.  Because as we can see, standing, waiting for your NYC subway train is a real thing. But fine, if you want to only include automobile congestion then INRIX traffic analectics is the best source in my opinion. Even there, Houston is not even in the top ten most congested cities in America for automobile traffic. 

 

http://inrix.com/scorecard-city/?city=Houston%2C TX&index=77

http://inrix.com/scorecard/

 

1 hour ago, skwatra said:

 

2. Chron article from 2018 states 

 

I stopped reading after you said Chron article. Wikipedia is more accurate than chron.com

[cspwal]

Houston has awful traffic compared to the average city, but is not really congested at all compared to the 3 bigger cities in the US (NYC, LA, and Chicago)

[skwatra]

24 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

I stopped reading after you said Chron article. Wikipedia is more accurate than chron.com

Its not their data. and no one has highly accurate data, just studies and surveys that point to a trend- things are getting worse.

 

new study from HomeArea.com

 

A recent survey by the Rice Kinder Institute for Urban Research shows Houston-area residents continue to assert that traffic congestion is getting worse, and in an area that adds nearly 100,000 people annually, that’s probably no surprise.

 

Solo drivers take 25.8 minutes to reach the office, according to a new analysis by the Associated Press.

[Some one]

Trains (and public transportation in general) should NEVER be proposed as a way to solve traffic congestion. No matter what we do, there’ll always be traffic. Even cities with the best public transportation still have terrible traffic. Instead, it should be proposed as an alternative to traffic. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Some one

[samagon]

1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

 

NYC also has the biggest, fastest, most frequent, heavily used, train system in America. It's supposed to be the "best." Funny, I thought more trains=less congestion. 

 

No matter how you slice it, Houston's congestion is not that bad. Congestion should be measured by not only automobile congestion but the combined congestion of automobile and public transportation congestion.  Because as we can see, standing, waiting for your NYC subway train is a real thing. But fine, if you want to only include automobile congestion then INRIX traffic analectics is the best source in my opinion. Even there, Houston is not even in the top ten most congested cities in America for automobile traffic. 

 

http://inrix.com/scorecard-city/?city=Houston%2C TX&index=77

http://inrix.com/scorecard/

 

 

I stopped reading after you said Chron article. Wikipedia is more accurate than chron.com

not that bad? Houston ranked 13th. In the nation.

 

at what point do you think it is bad enough to consider commuting options other than bigger freeways?

 

so by your estimation, if we remove public transportation from NYC, Chicago, Boston, and DC their traffic levels would do what? 

 

Houston compared to NYC is 95 hours in traffic compared with 133, from your own reference above. so 35 more hours.

 

let's break that down to daily times, to give it more realistic context. based on a 5 day work week, and ignoring vacations, there's 260 weekdays in a year.

 

so an individual in NYC spends 30.7 minutes in traffic a day. an individual in Houston spends 21.9 minutes in traffic a day.

 

I ask these questions again, because it's important for you to understand that I really want you to answer them:

 

at what point does Houston traffic become bad?

 

what happens to freeway traffic in NYC, Chicago, Boston and DC if you remove rail (subway, elevated, etc) from the commuter options?

[102IAHexpress]

This is a very old table from the feds. But i'm just amazed at how -few- highway miles Houston has. I would like to see more recent statistics. But the case could be made that Houston should add more highway miles. 

 

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/onh2p11.htm

 

Urbanized Area	Location Prime State	Location Other State(s)	Estd. Urbanized Population (1,000)	Federal-Aid Urbanized Land Area (Sq. Miles)	Persons per Square Mile	Total Highway Mileage	Total & Expressway Mileage	Total Freeway Miles per Urbanized Population	Total Highway Vehicle Miles (000)	Total Freeway Vehicle Miles (000)	Daily Vehicle Miles Per Capita	% of Travel Served by Freeways	Average AADT on Freeways
New York Northeastern NJ	NY	NJ	17,089	3,962	4,313	37,623	1,130	66.1	263,905	101,299	15.4	38.4	89,639
Los Angeles	CA		12,384	2,231	5,551	26,949	652	52.7	280,793	126,498	22.7	45.1	193,875
Chicago - Northwestern IN 1/	IL	IN	7,702	2,730	2,821	23,764	477	62.0	158,240	48,276	20.5	30.5	101,167
Philadelphia 1/	PA	NJ	4,068	1,347	3,020	13,417	347	85.4	77,005	24,483	18.9	31.8	70,457
San Francisco - Oakland	CA		4,022	1,203	3,343	9,316	330	82.0	90,277	47,982	22.4	53.1	145,461
Detroit	MI		3,836	1,304	2,942	13,808	283	73.8	92,359	31,125	24.1	33.7	109,882
Dallas - Ft. Worth	TX		3,746	1,712	2,188	17,830	594	158.5	116,548	49,197	31.1	42.2	82,872
Washington	DC	MD, VA	3,617	999	3,621	10,329	306	84.6	82,959	34,533	22.9	41.6	112,852
Atlanta	GA		2,977	1,757	1,694	13,145	306	102.9	100,693	42,488	33.8	42.2	138,701
Boston	MA		2,917	1,138	2,563	10,148	211	72.3	59,361	22,890	20.3	38.6	108,468
San Diego	CA		2,653	733	3,619	5,965	246	92.8	62,809	33,745	23.7	53.7	137,029
Houston	TX		2,487	1,537	1,618	15,251	368	148.0	91,883	39,195	36.9	42.7	106,458

[skwatra]

Interesting data. Looks to be from 2000, and I assume it is mileage by lane so Houston has had a lot of expansion since then. The stats I find most interesting which I've never come across before are "% of Travel Served by Freeways" and "Daily Vehicle Miles Per Capita".

 

The % of travel i assume is % of car/bus vehicle travel (based on the NYC and SF numbers, can't be all modes of travel).

 

Any thoughts on the Daily vehicle travel of 36.9 miles per capita for Houston, and if that number has gone up or down?

[samagon]

2 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

This is a very old table from the feds. But i'm just amazed at how -few- highway miles Houston has. I would like to see more recent statistics. But the case could be made that Houston should add more highway miles. 

 

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/onh2p11.htm

 

Urbanized Area	Location Prime State	Location Other State(s)	Estd. Urbanized Population (1,000)	Federal-Aid Urbanized Land Area (Sq. Miles)	Persons per Square Mile	Total Highway Mileage	Total & Expressway Mileage	Total Freeway Miles per Urbanized Population	Total Highway Vehicle Miles (000)	Total Freeway Vehicle Miles (000)	Daily Vehicle Miles Per Capita	% of Travel Served by Freeways	Average AADT on Freeways
New York Northeastern NJ	NY	NJ	17,089	3,962	4,313	37,623	1,130	66.1	263,905	101,299	15.4	38.4	89,639
Los Angeles	CA		12,384	2,231	5,551	26,949	652	52.7	280,793	126,498	22.7	45.1	193,875
Chicago - Northwestern IN 1/	IL	IN	7,702	2,730	2,821	23,764	477	62.0	158,240	48,276	20.5	30.5	101,167
Philadelphia 1/	PA	NJ	4,068	1,347	3,020	13,417	347	85.4	77,005	24,483	18.9	31.8	70,457
San Francisco - Oakland	CA		4,022	1,203	3,343	9,316	330	82.0	90,277	47,982	22.4	53.1	145,461
Detroit	MI		3,836	1,304	2,942	13,808	283	73.8	92,359	31,125	24.1	33.7	109,882
Dallas - Ft. Worth	TX		3,746	1,712	2,188	17,830	594	158.5	116,548	49,197	31.1	42.2	82,872
Washington	DC	MD, VA	3,617	999	3,621	10,329	306	84.6	82,959	34,533	22.9	41.6	112,852
Atlanta	GA		2,977	1,757	1,694	13,145	306	102.9	100,693	42,488	33.8	42.2	138,701
Boston	MA		2,917	1,138	2,563	10,148	211	72.3	59,361	22,890	20.3	38.6	108,468
San Diego	CA		2,653	733	3,619	5,965	246	92.8	62,809	33,745	23.7	53.7	137,029
Houston	TX		2,487	1,537	1,618	15,251	368	148.0	91,883	39,195	36.9	42.7	106,458

 

It's really staggering when you consider how many miles per urbanized population. we are well over double the amount of NYC. look next at daily vehicle miles per capita, we are also more than double. that lines up almost perfectly.

 

then when you consider urbanized population of NYC compared to Houston and they have barely half as many freeway miles (37000 to 15000). it really shows how many people use public transit when given the option like they are in NYC.

 

you would think, well, Dallas has 10 more miles of freeway, per urbanized population, but then you see that they have a lower daily vehicle miles per capita, that's interesting. more freeways, less travel? Then you realize that they have a more complete rail transit system than Houston. It really hammers the point home that you were trying to show with this link that by giving people the option of alternative forms of transit, specifically rail, they take advantage!

 

thanks for the data and link!

Edited February 12, 2019 by samagon

[august948]

5 hours ago, samagon said:

 

It's really staggering when you consider how many miles per urbanized population. we are well over double the amount of NYC. look next at daily vehicle miles per capita, we are also more than double. that lines up almost perfectly.

 

then when you consider urbanized population of NYC compared to Houston and they have barely half as many freeway miles (37000 to 15000). it really shows how many people use public transit when given the option like they are in NYC.

 

you would think, well, Dallas has 10 more miles of freeway, per urbanized population, but then you see that they have a lower daily vehicle miles per capita, that's interesting. more freeways, less travel? Then you realize that they have a more complete rail transit system than Houston. It really hammers the point home that you were trying to show with this link that by giving people the option of alternative forms of transit, specifically rail, they take advantage!

 

thanks for the data and link!

 

Good point on the rail as an option for commuters in Dallas and elsewhere, but is it realistic that Metro will do anything like that in the next 22 years?  Or is it going to continue to focus on inside the loop?

[Some one]

12 hours ago, august948 said:

 

Good point on the rail as an option for commuters in Dallas and elsewhere, but is it realistic that Metro will do anything like that in the next 22 years?  Or is it going to continue to focus on inside the loop?

I think it’s possible. The guy who’s long opposed them is gone and has been replaced by someone who’s willing to help metro. There’s also been a huge increase in support in rail. The only concern is cost, but if the infrastructure bill does pass, metro could take advantage of that.

 

Building rail to the suburbs may be harder, but this is being planned in conjunction with HGAC’s high capacity transit task force (http://www.h-gac.com/taq/transportation-committees/HCT/default.aspx). Take it with a grain of salt though, as barely any transit project included in HGAC’s regional transportation plan has been built.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Some one

[Houston19514]

20 hours ago, samagon said:

you would think, well, Dallas has 10 more miles of freeway, per urbanized population, but then you see that they have a lower daily vehicle miles per capita, that's interesting. more freeways, less travel? Then you realize that they have a more complete rail transit system than Houston. It really hammers the point home that you were trying to show with this link that by giving people the option of alternative forms of transit, specifically rail, they take advantage!

 

 

Dallas may have a "more complete rail transit system" by number of miles and number of stations, but last I checked, Houston still had a higher percentage of people using transit.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Houston19514

[Some one]

13 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Dallas may have a more complete rail transit system (which isn't saying much), but last I checked, Houston still had a higher percentage of people using transit.

 

Dart is a good example of how NOT to build a rail system. They built it on a bunch of old right of way and now they have to deal with problems like gaps on the north and east side, stops avoiding neighborhoods and major activity centers, and the 4 lines going through downtown together. It’s kinda sad when the metrorail has about 10 million less riders than dart does (and dart is the biggest light rail system in the us by miles).

Edited February 13, 2019 by Some one

[j_cuevas713]

10 hours ago, Some one said:

Dart is a good example of how NOT to build a rail system. They built it on a bunch of old right of way and now they have to deal with problems like gaps on the north and east side, stops avoiding neighborhoods and major activity centers, and the 4 lines going through downtown together. It’s kinda sad when the metrorail has about 10 million less riders than dart does (and dart is the biggest light rail system in the us by miles).

Agree 100%!!! I lived in Dallas for 4 years and the light rail system is almost non existent. I mean it's there but it's like nobody really believes it's there or notices. And people from Dallas easily admit that anyone from the northside of the city wouldn't be caught dead taking it anywhere. They have such a different mindset when it comes to having an urban city. Houston definitely feels more urban on many levels compared to there. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by j_cuevas713

[102IAHexpress]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 8:46 AM, Some one said:

There’s also been a huge increase in support in rail. The only concern is cost, but if the infrastructure bill does pass, metro could take advantage of that.

 

 

Whatever hope of new rail infrastructure being built with federal tax dollars, just took a huge hit because of California's boondoggle of a high speed train fiasco. If anything, the feds may want to get money back on wasted train investments! I can see the feds spending money on rebuilding/repairing -existing- rail infrastructure though.

[august948]

18 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Whatever hope of new rail infrastructure being built with federal tax dollars, just took a huge hit because of California's boondoggle of a high speed train fiasco. If anything, the feds may want to get money back on wasted train investments! I can see the feds spending money on rebuilding/repairing -existing- rail infrastructure though.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/trump-demands-calif-give-back-feds-billions-for-bullet-train-project.html

 

i would think, though, that this would reflect more on bullet train projects between cities rather than commuter projects in cities.  Is the TCR project using any fed funds or is that all private?

Edited February 14, 2019 by august948