METRO Next - 2040 Vision

[LBC2HTX]

This route makes too much sense for metro to not prioritize. 

[BigFootsSocks]

I mean isn’t the NIMBY-ism pretty strong along this area? They were pretty vocal about not wanting the HSR to extend into downtown via that train route (above or below)

[wilcal]

16 hours ago, rechlin said:

I agree this would be fantastic, if it goes down Center as @Avossos said, instead of Washington.  There are no good east-west alternative roads to Washington, so if the rail went down that, it would slow down traffic (bicycle, automotive, etc) way too much.  It's OK that rail went down Main because drivers and cyclists can always take roads like Travis and Fannin.  But with Washington, there is no good alternative.

 

And yes, it should ultimately go at least to Shepherd, and maybe all the way to Westcott, and then somehow eventually make it up to the Northwest Transit Center, perhaps via Old Katy Road.

 

Memorial is a thing, too, of course. My gut says the rush hour traffic on Westheimer is not for people living in Wesheimer corridor, but people going to the Heights from downtown or people just avoiding traffic on I-10. 

 

Washington itself is way under utilized outside of rush hour. They talked about it at the Patterson bike lane meeting. Many locals wanted a light at Patterson@Washington, but they said that while traffic needs justified it just at peak rush hour, the rest of the day wasn't close. 

 

Washington should have been steered to something closer to lower Westheimer reconstruction plans, anyway. One lane of traffic each way and street parking/pull-in bus stops. I think with light rail, there likely isn't any room for street parking.

 

I guess what I'm up on my soap box for on this post is that Washington Ave shouldn't be a commuter street, it should be a street to support the Washington neighborhood. I don't think the extra driving lanes will benefit them more than LRT. 

 

Also, just saw that the last stop  would be 2ish blocks from a Walmart. I'm kind of here for the big/weird stuff that people will start carrying on the train. 

 

 

[samagon]

2 hours ago, wilcal said:

 

Memorial is a thing, too, of course. My gut says the rush hour traffic on Westheimer is not for people living in Wesheimer corridor, but people going to the Heights from downtown or people just avoiding traffic on I-10. 

 

Washington itself is way under utilized outside of rush hour. They talked about it at the Patterson bike lane meeting. Many locals wanted a light at Patterson@Washington, but they said that while traffic needs justified it just at peak rush hour, the rest of the day wasn't close. 

 

Washington should have been steered to something closer to lower Westheimer reconstruction plans, anyway. One lane of traffic each way and street parking/pull-in bus stops. I think with light rail, there likely isn't any room for street parking.

 

I guess what I'm up on my soap box for on this post is that Washington Ave shouldn't be a commuter street, it should be a street to support the Washington neighborhood. I don't think the extra driving lanes will benefit them more than LRT. 

 

Also, just saw that the last stop  would be 2ish blocks from a Walmart. I'm kind of here for the big/weird stuff that people will start carrying on the train. 

 

 

 

I was working out near BW8 and I-10 recently. Google saved me 5 minutes on my drive home (Telephone and 45) by exiting me at Wirt, and cutting over to Memorial.

 

what kind of messed up world is it, when it is faster to take surface streets instead of the freeway? I-10 needs to be expanded again, screw these pet projects for toy trains, we need 14 lanes on every freeway, stat.

[Triton]

12 hours ago, BigFootsSocks said:

I mean isn’t the NIMBY-ism pretty strong along this area? They were pretty vocal about not wanting the HSR to extend into downtown via that train route (above or below)

 

Oh, I'm calling it now. You'll see a big backlash not just from residents in the area, but from all the bars and clubs that will be impacted by the construction. I have a neighbor who moved from the Washington Ave corridor and he told me the area meetings were always in an uproar about parking, crime, and traffic in the area. Can't imagine what they'll say once Washington gets reduced down to one lane each way.

[wilcal]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

 

I was working out near BW8 and I-10 recently. Google saved me 5 minutes on my drive home (Telephone and 45) by exiting me at Wirt, and cutting over to Memorial.

 

what kind of messed up world is it, when it is faster to take surface streets instead of the freeway? I-10 needs to be expanded again, screw these pet projects for toy trains, we need 14 lanes on every freeway, stat.

 

Not sure if serious.

 

43 minutes ago, Triton said:

 

Oh, I'm calling it now. You'll see a big backlash not just from residents in the area, but from all the bars and clubs that will be impacted by the construction. I have a neighbor who moved from the Washington Ave corridor and he told me the area meetings were always in an uproar about parking, crime, and traffic in the area. Can't imagine what they'll say once Washington gets reduced down to one lane each way.

 

Maybe Metro strategically left this out of the plan until this final revision so that they only have one month to rally the troops. 

 

Edit: really most of the clubs/bars are west of where the proposed line would end. There's only a small handful that would be affected. 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by wilcal

[ADCS]

13 hours ago, BigFootsSocks said:

I mean isn’t the NIMBY-ism pretty strong along this area? They were pretty vocal about not wanting the HSR to extend into downtown via that train route (above or below)

 

They didn’t want anything more disruptive than the existing rail corridor. I think you will see less opposition to what’s essentially a streetcar to the Theater District. It’s a QOL and property value enhancer.

 

Businesses will complain but hardly any of them last longer than 5 years on Washington.

[Triton]

Quote

I think you will see less opposition to what’s essentially a streetcar to the Theater District. It’s a QOL and property value enhancer.

 

That's not how businesses see it though. Most don't think long term that this will benefit them, and most will see it as harder for customers to get to their businesses, the same claim businesses on N Main said. I'm willing to bet the opposition will be a lot more pronounced than you realize. 

[samagon]

10 minutes ago, wilcal said:

 

Not sure if serious.

 

 

 

I wasn't.

 

I am absolutely dumbfounded that people still have this mentality though.

[wilcal]

10 minutes ago, ADCS said:

 

They didn’t want anything more disruptive than the existing rail corridor. I think you will see less opposition to what’s essentially a streetcar to the Theater District. It’s a QOL and property value enhancer.

 

Businesses will complain but hardly any of them last longer than 5 years on Washington.

 

Just went and looked at the bars and restaurants along Washington which would be affected: 

 

(I'm assuming that the stop at Heights will stop just short of the intersection)

 

Star Pizza

Urban Eats

Sonic

Hughes Manor

Shell Shack

Catalina Coffee

Liberty Station

Henderson Heights Pub

Julep

Kubo's Sushi

Tacodeli

Platypus Brewing

Gus' Fried Chicken

B&B Butchers

BB Lemon

 

I mean, that's not that many IMHO.

 

And several of those are destination places that people are making a trip for. 

[cspwal]

For the purpose of the actual trains, I wonder which lines will be extended to Heights, or if both purple and green trains will go all the way down.

 

Does anyone know the history of Hughes manor?

[wilcal]

24 minutes ago, cspwal said:

For the purpose of the actual trains, I wonder which lines will be extended to Heights, or if both purple and green trains will go all the way down.

 

Does anyone know the history of Hughes manor?

 

I would imagine it would be both. Not sure I see a benefit to one stopping and not continuing. 

[cspwal]

A longer line means either more trains for the same frequency or less frequency for the same number of trains.  Extending only one line would work if they don't want to put more trains on one of the lines, but want to keep the frequencies the same

[samagon]

 

1 hour ago, wilcal said:

 

Just went and looked at the bars and restaurants along Washington which would be affected: 

 

(I'm assuming that the stop at Heights will stop just short of the intersection)

 

Star Pizza

Urban Eats

Sonic

Hughes Manor

Shell Shack

Catalina Coffee

Liberty Station

Henderson Heights Pub

Julep

Kubo's Sushi

Tacodeli

Platypus Brewing

Gus' Fried Chicken

B&B Butchers

BB Lemon

 

I mean, that's not that many IMHO.

 

And several of those are destination places that people are making a trip for. 

 

with the exception of Sonic, and Star Pizza I believe each of these is a one-off business? probably some of those businesses are owned by people who have multiple businesses though.

 

sure, most of these places are destinations, but if there's construction and a place is harder to access, there are other destinations that the prospective patrons will go that are easier to access. unless the place offers an experience that is that much better. but you're still going to see a reduction in clientele.

 

as a business owner, the prospect of a reduction in top line revenue for 3-5 years is not something I want to consider, and no matter how many more patrons I might after that 5 years is over, I need to stay in business for the next 5 years to get to that positive outcome. 

[cspwal]

How did construction affect the businesses on Harrisburg or on Scott street?  The original red line construction was rushed, so there was greater impact on the businesses, but I thought that Metro went through a lot of effort to avoid it with the Green/Purple/Northlines.

 

Maybe they will reroute people on to Center street during the construction

[mollusk]

The problem with Center Street is that it's very narrow, and has a lot of things built right up to it.

 

This is where a monorail would come in handy, since they don't take up much in the way of real estate.

[102IAHexpress]

11 hours ago, samagon said:

 

I-10 needs to be expanded again, screw these pet projects for toy trains, we need 14 lanes on every freeway, stat.

 

I agree. Freeways that are very popular, jam packed, bustling with excitement should be expanded. Give the people what they want. The best argument for more freeways is watching hundreds of thousands of people in their cars use them everyday. 

[lithiumaneurysm]

What compensation does the city offer to businesses affected by regular road construction? I don't think the dozens of businesses on Memorial Drive on the west side are getting anything for the pain of that disastrous project. I'm not sure why transit projects should be (and often are) held to a different standard. Infrastructure projects are disruptive by nature and a necessary evil.

 

On 5/24/2019 at 11:25 PM, 102IAHexpress said:

I agree. Freeways that are very popular, jam packed, bustling with excitement should be expanded. Give the people what they want. The best argument for more freeways is watching hundreds of thousands of people in their cars use them everyday. 

 

Is this what the people want? Houston voters approved a five-line light rail system over a decade ago and never got what they were promised. District 7 just flipped from an anti-transit congressman to a pro-transit congresswoman. Kinder Institute surveys every year show half of all Houstonians would prefer to live in in more dense, walkable neighborhoods as opposed to car-dependent suburbs. It's inaccurate to conflate the use of freeways in a heavily car-dependent city with popular demand. The only accurate way to measure what Houstonians want is by scientific surveys and ballot referendums, which suggest the opposite of what you say.

[Some one]

15 hours ago, lithiumaneurysm said:

What compensation does the city offer to businesses affected by regular road construction? I don't think the dozens of businesses on Memorial Drive on the west side are getting anything for the pain of that disastrous project. I'm not sure why transit projects should be (and often are) held to a different standard. Infrastructure projects are disruptive by nature and a necessary evil.

 

 

 

The people who bend over backward for any road projects are the same people who will scream and cry foul if Metro wants to build one mile of light rail.

[H-Town Man]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 2:06 PM, Avossos said:

 

Also not sure why it would stop at Heights... I think it should go all the way up Shepard / Durahm and to NW transit Station....

 

Whoa, let's not get crazy now. You just described the line that was mandated by a public referendum 15 years ago.

 

[102IAHexpress]

On 5/26/2019 at 6:13 PM, lithiumaneurysm said:

Is this what the people want? Houston voters approved a five-line light rail system over a decade ago and never got what they were promised. District 7 just flipped from an anti-transit congressman to a pro-transit congresswoman. Kinder Institute surveys every year show half of all Houstonians would prefer to live in in more dense, walkable neighborhoods as opposed to car-dependent suburbs. It's inaccurate to conflate the use of freeways in a heavily car-dependent city with popular demand. The only accurate way to measure what Houstonians want is by scientific surveys and ballot referendums, which suggest the opposite of what you say.

 

Great! Houstonian's in the loop already have one of the best bus systems in the country. Problem solved. 

[crock]

On 5/23/2019 at 11:07 PM, BigFootsSocks said:

I mean isn’t the NIMBY-ism pretty strong along this area? They were pretty vocal about not wanting the HSR to extend into downtown via that train route (above or below)

 

NIMBY-ism refers to residents, not commercial entities.   6th and 1st wards are filled with people that would absolutely love the light rail to be closer to their 120+ year old homes.  

the last i-45 plans have the Winter Street line being taken out.  That is a large enough right-of-way to easily support lightrail construction if Center st is too short and the Washington Ave businesses complain too much (although Lovett has all the land on all 3 of these streets so it doesn't really matter to them, does it?) 

Edited May 28, 2019 by crock

[samagon]

On 5/28/2019 at 9:26 AM, crock said:

 

NIMBY-ism refers to residents, not commercial entities.   6th and 1st wards are filled with people that would absolutely love the light rail to be closer to their 120+ year old homes.  

the last i-45 plans have the Winter Street line being taken out.  That is a large enough right-of-way to easily support lightrail construction if Center st is too short and the Washington Ave businesses complain too much (although Lovett has all the land on all 3 of these streets so it doesn't really matter to them, does it?) 

 

this is false.

 

a business can absolutely be a NIMBY. go look at all the fighting from businesses against the BRT on Post Oak. what would you call what that, if not NIMBY?

[Texasota]

NIPL? Not In My Parking Lot?

[chrispy]

Isn’t it ironic that we once had a great train service throughout Houston called the Interurban? We replaced it with the Gulf Freeway because of the growing number of cars on the road. FF>> 80 years and here we are still arguing about trains vs. cars. I hate when they tear up a road and inconvenience us with construction but screw it- build the rail already! I just wish more Houstonians would use public transport. 

[Triton]

Why is there not commuter rail along the Hardy Tollroad from IAH to downtown. The infrastructure is already there... you would just have to build the connection closer to IAH. Perhaps it can turn right at Farrell Rd and then make the connection underground to the airport. I don't know... just makes too much sense especially since this rail line also goes past the Burnett transit center and future rebuilt Amtrak station. 

 

 

 

 

 

[cspwal]

I think part of the problem is that stretch of rail is busy, and is owned by UP.  To get it to work, UP would have to agree to put in at least one more track, as well as more track-age at Burnett Transit center - preferably 3 tracks (2 way platform as well as a bypass line for freight)

Additionally, the closest current rail head is 7 miles away; I think the smartest connection for IAH would be to have either a people mover (think JFK air train) or have the planned BRT hook into it 

 

The major destinations if they do make a commuter rail on that corridor would have to be Spring, the Woodlands, and Conroe.  The woodlands especially has a lot of reverse commuting going to it, so the trains would actually have passengers both ways.  Problem up in the Woodlands would be they need their own transit system to get people from the commuter station to offices (I'm assuming people going to Houston would be able to park & ride - the main issue would be someone in Houston working at Exxon or something)

 

As an example of a cross city commute, someone who lives in Missouri City but works at Exxon Mobil would have 1 hr - 1 1/2 hr commute around beltway 8.  Combining a redline extension to Missouri City with a Hardy commuter line would give this trip:

Drive to Missouri City Park and Ride (8 minutes)

Take Redline to Burnett Transit Center (45 min, train every 10 minutes)

Transfer to the Woodlands Flyer, take it to Spring (24 miles, going 75 mph but with 4 intermediary stops, so 31 min every 15 minutes)

Take Exxon Shuttle (11 minute ride, timed with the trains)

 

So our commuter's trip took 95 minutes, with 12 1/2 minutes of waiting on average.  It matches the drive time, but depends on the commuter train maintaining high speeds with limited stops, and Exxon (or a governmental entity) running a shuttle to the station.

[cspwal]

I wanted to see what Metro's planned Express bus + BRT +Light rail plans were for just the Vision 2040 plan, and it looks impressive

 

 

I tried to attach line colors to both the express lines and to the BRT & LRT extensions, but it made it hard to see - here's the same map with just the transit

 

 

The express lines are a big deal in this plan - it makes the whole system look bigger.  The big question is how the service hours and the off-peak frequency for the express busses - if they ran until midnight on the weekends, that would be a big deal

 

Making this map pointed out a couple of things - they aren't planning a connection between the new Gessner BRT line and the Katy express bus, and there's going to be a lot of service to North Shepherd park and ride.  I think they really need to have BRT down Shepherd, as that would both spur off the planned high traffic N Shepherd TC and would fill a big gap in service inside the loop and in the Heights.  Currently the plan is to upgrade the current bus to BOOST service, but I suspect BRT would actually be more useful in that corridor than the east side Blue line

[Visitor]

On 5/23/2019 at 11:07 PM, BigFootsSocks said:

I mean isn’t the NIMBY-ism pretty strong along this area? They were pretty vocal about not wanting the HSR to extend into downtown via that train route (above or below)

Super late on this reply, but a light rail line down Washington or Center is a poor comparison to a 4-5 story elevated structure that the HSR would have required (built OVER the existing UP ROW). Not to mention, the HSR line would not have served the Washington corridor residents whereas a light rail would on a daily basis. 

 

Most residents, including myself, were in favor of a local train service going through the neighborhood and connecting NW Transit centers with Downtown. 

[wilcal]

5 hours ago, cspwal said:

I wanted to see what Metro's planned Express bus + BRT +Light rail plans were for just the Vision 2040 plan, and it looks impressive

 

 

 

I tried to attach line colors to both the express lines and to the BRT & LRT extensions, but it made it hard to see - here's the same map with just the transit

 

 

 

The express lines are a big deal in this plan - it makes the whole system look bigger.  The big question is how the service hours and the off-peak frequency for the express busses - if they ran until midnight on the weekends, that would be a big deal

 

Making this map pointed out a couple of things - they aren't planning a connection between the new Gessner BRT line and the Katy express bus, and there's going to be a lot of service to North Shepherd park and ride.  I think they really need to have BRT down Shepherd, as that would both spur off the planned high traffic N Shepherd TC and would fill a big gap in service inside the loop and in the Heights.  Currently the plan is to upgrade the current bus to BOOST service, but I suspect BRT would actually be more useful in that corridor than the east side Blue line

 

Awesome maps, was really considering doing that myself.

 

I really want to think that they'll at least run some service on the weekend, but maybe not. At least some multi-stop service like they run during the day instead of non-stop P&R level of service.