Retail Center At 2805 White Oak Dr.

[Urbannizer]

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/2805-White-Oak-Dr-Houston-TX/11627429/

[Angostura]

 

This is the parking lot across from Barnabay's/Christian's. 

 

It appears like they'll do structured parking in place of the current single-story parking enclosure next to Tacos a go-go, which will open up this land for development. This is kind of huge, and may be the first of it's kind in the Heights: infill development of a surface lot by going vertical with parking.

 

If this kind of development catches on, it could really add a lot of pedestrian activity to major commercial corridors.

 

 

[mollusk]

Let's hope they build the garage first.  

[Angostura]

36 minutes ago, mollusk said:

Let's hope they build the garage first.  

 

They'll have to.

 

Can't get a permit without demonstrating adequate off-street parking  (also would put the businesses across the street out of compliance w/ Ch 26). 

[Triton]

244 spots? Sounds like it will be about 5 to 6 stories? Can't imagine too many residents being happy about that but I truly think we need this especially with this lot going away.

[Angostura]

Could be even higher. Footprint is around 7200 sf, which wouldn't be much more than 24 spaces per level. I would guess something like 80-ft high, unless they do something like this.

 

 

 

[tanith27]

Is this just the parking lot itself?  The east end of the black and white SITE graphic has an angular property line which sure looks like the Bobcat Teddy's property line.  I think it's the parking lot plus the small white oak tributary...

[Angostura]

2 hours ago, tanith27 said:

Is this just the parking lot itself?  The east end of the black and white SITE graphic has an angular property line which sure looks like the Bobcat Teddy's property line.  I think it's the parking lot plus the small white oak tributary...

 

I believe it's the current parking lot, plus the wooded area between the parking lot and the bar fka Jimmy's Ice House

[SamHouston]

On 2/20/2018 at 1:26 PM, Triton said:

244 spots? Sounds like it will be about 5 to 6 stories? Can't imagine too many residents being happy about that but I truly think we need this especially with this lot going away.

I think that's exactly what they plan on doing.

 

"New 244 car automated garage being built"

 

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/2805-White-Oak-Dr-Houston-TX/11627429/

 

This will be interesting to see.

[Angostura]

 

Anyone notice that 244 spaces is way, way more than the city minimums would typically require? Even at 10 per 1000 s.f., they'd only need 100 (minus the 5 onsite, plus whatever they displace)

 

I think this is the first salvo in a major densification of this district. For example, the site next to Fitzgerald's could have three restaurants instead of one by leasing parking in the new garage.

[Triton]

Called it! 

 

This parking garage could very well have a battle ahead in the Heights.

[s3mh]

I would guess that they might put in additional retail sq ft in the parking lot between Christain's and Barnaby's if they have excess parking spots in the proposed parking tower.  

[Timoric]

On 2/20/2018 at 0:15 PM, CrockpotandGravel said:

Site plan and map from the leasing brochure. The brochure shows the construction of a new retail development at the parking lot across the street from Barnaby's Cafe at 1805 White Oak Dr.

Brochure one (archive link)

Brochure two (archive link)










What is up with the white boat?


 

 

[Angostura]

CoH plan review comments are a rich vein of insight into the experience of interacting with city bureaucracy.

 

Traffic comments: "Furnish parking analysis and planning approval prior to traffic approval."

 

Planning comments: "There must be traffic approval before our department can approve your site plan."

 

 

 

[Triton]

What a mess. So they're going to tear out the parking lot and have plans for a parking garage to someday get built. Parking is about to get a hella lot worse on White Oak.

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, Triton said:

What a mess. So they're going to tear out the parking lot and have plans for a parking garage to someday get built. Parking is about to get a hella lot worse on White Oak.

 

They have plans for a parking garage, just as they have plans for the whole development. There is nothing in that story to suggest they are going to build one without the other.  (In fact, they likely would not be able to get a COO without the parking facility.)

[Angostura]

On 7/26/2018 at 1:20 PM, Triton said:

What a mess. So they're going to tear out the parking lot and have plans for a parking garage to someday get built. Parking is about to get a hella lot worse on White Oak.

 

 

When they originally submitted the plans for permitting back in March, among the comments they got back was that the garage needs to be permitted before the retail can be permitted, since it's required for compliance w/ Ch 26 (parking minimums). Appears plans for 2805 White Oak were re-submitted last week.

 

You can check on status here: https://www.pdinet.pd.houstontx.gov/cohilms/webs/Plan_LookUp.asp

Project number 17144910

[Triton]

6 hours ago, Angostura said:

 

 

When they originally submitted the plans for permitting back in March, among the comments they got back was that the garage needs to be permitted before the retail can be permitted, since it's required for compliance w/ Ch 26 (parking minimums). Appears plans for 2805 White Oak were re-submitted last week.

 

You can check on status here: https://www.pdinet.pd.houstontx.gov/cohilms/webs/Plan_LookUp.asp

Project number 17144910

 

Thanks. So just to be clear, the parking garage must be finished before they remove this parking lot or must the parking garage be finished before the retail structure is finished? Or... neither?

[Angostura]

14 hours ago, Triton said:

 

Thanks. So just to be clear, the parking garage must be finished before they remove this parking lot or must the parking garage be finished before the retail structure is finished? Or... neither?

 

Not entirely certain. Normally, in a retail development you can build the parking and the retail concurrently. You just need the parking to get your occupancy permit. In this case, however, I believe that if they eliminate the parking at 2805 White Oak without the automated garage in place, the businesses across the street will fall out of compliance w/ parking requirements. So I think the order it has to happen is parking garage first, then the new retail in place of the old parking, unless they come up with an alternative arrangement for the businesses on the north side of the street.

[Triton]

4 hours ago, Angostura said:

 

Not entirely certain. Normally, in a retail development you can build the parking and the retail concurrently. You just need the parking to get your occupancy permit. In this case, however, I believe that if they eliminate the parking at 2805 White Oak without the automated garage in place, the businesses across the street will fall out of compliance w/ parking requirements. So I think the order it has to happen is parking garage first, then the new retail in place of the old parking, unless they come up with an alternative arrangement for the businesses on the north side of the street.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. 

[Texasota]

whine whine whine. If there's not enough parking the businesses will fail. This is one thing the market can actually handle.

[Texasota]

argh to double posting. this is like the third time the system has made it look like a comment didn't post. Lies! All lies!

Edited July 31, 2018 by Texasota

[Angostura]

14 hours ago, Texasota said:

whine whine whine. If there's not enough parking the businesses will fail. This is one thing the market can actually handle.

 

True, but the order of construction would still be the same either way. In the absence of parking minimums (and even with them) providing sufficient parking would be a lease obligation of the owner (tenants are often fanatical about parking), so they couldn't just build on the parking lot without providing an alternative.

[Angostura]

On 3/21/2018 at 6:33 PM, Angostura said:

 

 

Duplicate post.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Angostura

[Angostura]

On 3/21/2018 at 6:33 PM, Angostura said:

 

Anyone notice that 244 spaces is way, way more than the city minimums would typically require? Even at 10 per 1000 s.f., they'd only need 100 (minus the 5 onsite, plus whatever they displace)

 

I think this is the first salvo in a major densification of this district. For example, the site next to Fitzgerald's could have three restaurants instead of one by leasing parking in the new garage.

 

Same entity has acquired Fitzgerald's. https://www.chron.com/business/article/Fitzgerald-s-property-in-the-Heights-has-new-13152404.php

 

Confirms suspicions they have plans to use the automated garage as a way to add a lot more commercial density to this area. Really interesting case study.

 

 

[s3mh]

19 hours ago, Angostura said:

 

Same entity has acquired Fitzgerald's. https://www.chron.com/business/article/Fitzgerald-s-property-in-the-Heights-has-new-13152404.php

 

Confirms suspicions they have plans to use the automated garage as a way to add a lot more commercial density to this area. Really interesting case study.

 

 

 

I think this Easy Park company is getting ahead of itself in Houston.  Its concept is based on maximizing space in dense urban areas by building vertical automated parking garages.  That is a great idea in areas like Philly, NY and DC where people expect to pay for parking when visiting dense parts of the city.  But in Houston, no one is expecting to pay for parking outside of downtown, the med center and some office buildings.  The garage at Highland Village is the only place I can think of that people will pay for parking at a retail development in Houston.  But that is a very high end shopping destination with a clientele that is not going to care about paying a few bucks to park.  Unless White Oak is going to be redeveloped into something completely different, I do not see very many people being interested in paid parking to go get $2 tacos or to get beers at an ice house.  

 

[LBC2HTX]

48 minutes ago, s3mh said:

 

I think this Easy Park company is getting ahead of itself in Houston.  Its concept is based on maximizing space in dense urban areas by building vertical automated parking garages.  That is a great idea in areas like Philly, NY and DC where people expect to pay for parking when visiting dense parts of the city.  But in Houston, no one is expecting to pay for parking outside of downtown, the med center and some office buildings.  The garage at Highland Village is the only place I can think of that people will pay for parking at a retail development in Houston.  But that is a very high end shopping destination with a clientele that is not going to care about paying a few bucks to park.  Unless White Oak is going to be redeveloped into something completely different, I do not see very many people being interested in paid parking to go get $2 tacos or to get beers at an ice house.  

 

I disagree. White Oak already has a shortage of parking, especially when the nearby residents feel entitled to b*tch at people parking on the residential streets. 

 

Also, Rice Village and City Centre both charge for parking. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by LBC2HTX

[s3mh]

2 hours ago, LBC2HTX said:

I disagree. White Oak already has a shortage of parking, especially when the nearby residents feel entitled to b*tch at people parking on the residential streets. 

 

Also, Rice Village and City Centre both charge for parking. 

 

City Centre has lots of free parking.  The pay lot is just for people who do not want to mix with the rabble looking for a space in the garages.  And Rice and City Centre are exponentially larger developments.  People will park and spend all afternoon shopping and dining or going to the movies, etc.  People are not going to pay $5-10 to park to go to places like Barnaby's, Pho Binh and Christian's.  Anyone looking to drink a lot will get an Uber.  Everyone else will either find a space on the street or drive a mile or two to another restaurant or bar where they can find free parking.  Unless the developers can seriously up the offerings on White Oak, the parking garage will be a money loser.  

[LBC2HTX]

1 hour ago, s3mh said:

 

City Centre has lots of free parking.  The pay lot is just for people who do not want to mix with the rabble looking for a space in the garages.  And Rice and City Centre are exponentially larger developments.  People will park and spend all afternoon shopping and dining or going to the movies, etc.  People are not going to pay $5-10 to park to go to places like Barnaby's, Pho Binh and Christian's.  Anyone looking to drink a lot will get an Uber.  Everyone else will either find a space on the street or drive a mile or two to another restaurant or bar where they can find free parking.  Unless the developers can seriously up the offerings on White Oak, the parking garage will be a money loser.  

Yet many people still choose to pay for parking, as evidenced by the metered spots being filled and the lines to pay the garage meters. Being a larger development doesn't mean anything - the Galleria is a larger development than RV and CC combined and yet all the parking is free.

 

What matters is that its a destination and that parking is at a premium, which is exactly the case on White Oak.   

[Angostura]

4 hours ago, s3mh said:

 

I think this Easy Park company is getting ahead of itself in Houston.  Its concept is based on maximizing space in dense urban areas by building vertical automated parking garages.  That is a great idea in areas like Philly, NY and DC where people expect to pay for parking when visiting dense parts of the city.  But in Houston, no one is expecting to pay for parking outside of downtown, the med center and some office buildings.  The garage at Highland Village is the only place I can think of that people will pay for parking at a retail development in Houston.  But that is a very high end shopping destination with a clientele that is not going to care about paying a few bucks to park.  Unless White Oak is going to be redeveloped into something completely different, I do not see very many people being interested in paid parking to go get $2 tacos or to get beers at an ice house.  

 

 

 

They don't (necessarily) have to charge for parking for this to make economic sense. 

 

Consider the project announced late last year for the site between Fitz and Barnaby's. That was for a 2600 sf restaurant on a 12,500 sf lot. If you move the required 26 spaces for that project, plus another 78 into the new structure, you can now build 4 restaurants on that site instead of 1. Building ~100 spaces in this parking structure is like creating an ADDITIONAL 37,500 sf of develop-able land. At $70/sf, HCAD's current valuation, that means that if you can build parking at less than $28,000 per space, you come out ahead, even if you don't charge a nickel for it. Some lazy Googling indicates that robotic parking systems can come in around $20k-30k per space. I assume that includes margin for the provider of the parking system, but in this case, the developer is also the provider, so the actual cost may be even lower.

 

Why do this in Houston, instead of NY, DC, SF or other places with much higher land values? I can think of a couple possibilities:

 

1 - In Houston you can change land use and add density by right, without having to ask for zoning changes, so it may be possible to get a demonstration project like this in place faster than in other jurisdictions.

 

2 - The land value in those other cities is already high enough to justify traditional structured parking for any new development, whereas this part of Houston has a land value right in the sweet spot: not quite high enough to justify traditional structured parking, but high enough for robotic parking to make sense.