Amazon HQ2

[Houston19514]

2 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

Not that I can see, but they've had DMN and others doing their work for them, so I don't think they have to. 

 

It does not strike me as something a developer is likely to put on their website (unless and until they are chosen).  And as much as I would love to see all of the Houston proposals and possible proposals, I doubt if a proposal is likely to benefit from publicity in the local paper.  I'm surprised at how much "information" is pouring out in Dallas about the different possible proposals, but that's kind of the way Dallas is.  If I were working on a proposal for a project such as this, I would want to keep my proposal as confidential as possible. We know a LOT about various Dallas proposals, and they, it would seem, know very little about our proposals.  That is to our benefit.

[H-Town Man]

47 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

Natural bodies of water ARE liabilities, because they're more liable to flooding (especially after Harvey) and a "waterfront view" is not a selling point like it is for residential (and I hate to admit this, but the bayous aren't much to look at). Old warehouses are also a problem, like it or not. Houston's zoning has been pretty lax, but if you look at actual land use, everything has more or less settled out. Commercial has clustered along major roads. Industrial areas have forced out houses. Like clusters around like.

 

It's unrealistic to think that Amazon is going to settle into a "fixer-upper" space without major taxpayer-funded investment, and even the KBR site was a possibility, it doesn't have access to light rail despite being close to downtown, and I thought light rail was half the reason for its justification as being inner loop.

 

Personally, I find Gattis and Slotboom the most keen into the way of how Houston actually works. They don't (not to my knowledge anyway) have these New Urbanist delusions that everything contrary to their idealistic "urbanism" view must be exterminated (the Pierce Elevated and the tunnels come to mind) that so many others do, and they know that Houston is just largely misunderstood rather than a problem that needs to be fixed. To me, that seems like a greater love of the city rather than "Houston needs X to be more like Y" I've seen on this forum sometimes.

 

 

"nothing more than liabilities"

 

The words "nothing more than" in what I stated affect the meaning of the sentence.

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by H-Town Man

[H-Town Man]

2 hours ago, Timoric said:

If they did something near downtown, we would see a downtown Houston rebirth that makes Urban Living Initiative look like a Northline Mall travelling carnival vs Astroworld in its prime and all those shiny emptyish 10,000 units would fill up faster than a North Dakota apartment during the boom.

 

It's hard to imagine a downtown rebirth more startling than the one we've had, but Amazon would take it to another level.

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by H-Town Man

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, IronTiger said:

Personally, I find Gattis and Slotboom the most keen into the way of how Houston actually works. They don't (not to my knowledge anyway) have these New Urbanist delusions that everything contrary to their idealistic "urbanism" view must be exterminated (the Pierce Elevated and the tunnels come to mind) that so many others do, and they know that Houston is just largely misunderstood rather than a problem that needs to be fixed. To me, that seems like a greater love of the city rather than "Houston needs X to be more like Y" I've seen on this forum sometimes.

 

 

With respect, anyone who thinks the Astrodome is a legitimate candidate for the Amazon site does not have a clue into how Houston actually works.

[HOUTEX]

Amen to that. It fundamentally no sense as anything other than an entertainment venue (stadium, park or otherwise).  

[HOUTEX]

2 hours ago, IronTiger said:

Natural bodies of water ARE liabilities, because they're more liable to flooding (especially after Harvey) and a "waterfront view" is not a selling point like it is for residential (and I hate to admit this, but the bayous aren't much to look at). Old warehouses are also a problem, like it or not. Houston's zoning has been pretty lax, but if you look at actual land use, everything has more or less settled out. Commercial has clustered along major roads. Industrial areas have forced out houses. Like clusters around like.

 

It's unrealistic to think that Amazon is going to settle into a "fixer-upper" space without major taxpayer-funded investment, and even the KBR site was a possibility, it doesn't have access to light rail despite being close to downtown, and I thought light rail was half the reason for its justification as being inner loop.

Au contraire.... (from the Midway East River materials on their website)

 

 

I've been in lots of re-purposed warehouses. They've got their own issues no doubt, but make for a much more interesting building that throwing something brand new up (usually in beige stucco it seems...)

 

The KBR thread linked above points out that the Greater East End Management District has already got a FTA-approve street car loop proposed for the area, connecting the site with the light rail stations. Seems like that would cut down the time to implement a "mass transit" system without the detractors of light rail. 

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

hmm.

 

side bar. I need to have a chat with someone tomorrow to do a back-scratching thing for a certain property development company to curry favor so mebbe we can borrow a certain piece of equipment from them occasionally.

yeah, it's semi related to this thread... LOL

[IronTiger]

5 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

With respect, anyone who thinks the Astrodome is a legitimate candidate for the Amazon site does not have a clue into how Houston actually works.

Mention of the Astrodome and the others came from another blog post. From re-reading it, I don't really think that Slotboom thinks that the Astrodome is a realistic choice. It's a fun thought and the light rail is there, but it's not going to be able to co-exist with the NRG facilities (after all, the shared parking was one of the alleged factors that put the screws to Astroworld)

[H-Town Man]

4 hours ago, HOUTEX said:

Au contraire.... (from the Midway East River materials on their website)

 

 

I've been in lots of re-purposed warehouses. They've got their own issues no doubt, but make for a much more interesting building that throwing something brand new up (usually in beige stucco it seems...)

 

The KBR thread linked above points out that the Greater East End Management District has already got a FTA-approve street car loop proposed for the area, connecting the site with the light rail stations. Seems like that would cut down the time to implement a "mass transit" system without the detractors of light rail. 

 

Shield your eyes, folks! A natural body of water! It doesn't even have a decorative fountain feature!

 

[102IAHexpress]

11 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Shield your eyes, folks! A natural body of water! It doesn't even have a decorative fountain feature!

 

 

Buffalo bayou is ugly. However, that's not the issue. Chicago is also pitching Amazon HQ2 on its own ugly river:

 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ori/ct-biz-freedom-center-ryan-ori-20170929-story.html

 

The problem for the old KBR site, is that it too undeveloped when compared to other potential river sites in the US. 

 

The astrodome idea is looking more and more like the best option. 

[H-Town Man]

The ugliness in the Chicago River photo above is the broken concrete on the bank, not the river itself. If you go a mile or so northward, you'll see the river and its surroundings look quite nice.

 

The East End of the bayou in Houtex's photos actually looks better than the south branch of the Chicago River, and better than the proposed locations in Dallas (next to Fair Park and next to I-35).

 

 

[Mr.Clean19]

On 10/3/2017 at 11:28 AM, HOUTEX said:

Apparently I can quote HOUTEX now on this forum.... test

[Mr.Clean19]

On 10/3/2017 at 11:28 AM, HOUTEX said:

Sorry in advance HOUTEX but i cant figure out how to delete this reference box in my chat box and it wont let me type anywhere else. So the the liability argument is out the window with the flooding. This property didnt take on water over the last 5 years. Its probably the least risky property in Houston from flooding. The Warehouses and amount of adjacent open land will be re-developed and is essentially an open floor plan for the developers to buy and create what they want. Chicago can compare at a price, technical resource, or ability to expand like Houston can.

[IronTiger]

18 hours ago, HOUTEX said:

Au contraire.... (from the Midway East River materials on their website)

 

 

 

The first photo shows Buffalo Bayou at the KBR site looking west toward downtown (I was able to determine this via Google Earth), but at a very specific angle. I don't know where the camera is. It has to be off the ground to allow for a vantage point like that, and any buildings are going to be far back enough to see the whole of Houston downtown (including Minute Maid Park, hidden behind the trees) would be visible. And it is too underdeveloped. If Houston wants Amazon to take the KBR site, they would have to (at minimum) have to finish the north side bayou trail. At present, it doesn't connect to the Heights trail, starts just east of McKee Street, went under the Elysian Viaduct (though that section is demolished due to Elysian Viaduct demolition), goes under I-69, and there's another gap just before it goes under the railroad...make that two gaps since about 60 yards of sidewalk were washed out due to Harvey...goes under the railroad and suddenly stops just east of Jensen.

 

The whole HQ2 thing would all demand on what Amazon is looking for. If they just want a sprawling space in a large MSA with a growing area, then The Woodlands or Hockley would be a better choice if the Houston area is chosen. If they're looking for a redevelopment plat that would put them in the inner city, KBR is a viable choice. Based on what Amazon seems to want (and the general corporation preference these days), they want campuses, not tall buildings, which would put Houston at an advantage, over, say, NYC.

 

Putting HQ2 in the Astrodome is probably on par with locating it in College Station-Bryan, that is, a nice thought that you imagine is fantastic and can make a few arguments for before reality hits and you realize how impractical the location is, with that only happening of very powerful people moved heaven and earth to make that happen.

[102IAHexpress]

44 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

 

Putting HQ2 in the Astrodome is probably on par with locating it in College Station-Bryan, that is, a nice thought that you imagine is fantastic and can make a few arguments for before reality hits and you realize how impractical the location is, with that only happening of very powerful people moved heaven and earth to make that happen.

 

The astrodome is the best option from a free incentive point of view for Amazon in Houston. I would prefer downtown, but what free incentives could anyone, private or public, offer to Amazon in downtown Houston that Amazon can't get from another city? The astrodome already has 105 million approved for renovations. That's a great incentive for the corporate welfare sweepstakes of the century. 

[IronTiger]

6 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

The astrodome is the best option from a free incentive point of view for Amazon in Houston. I would prefer downtown, but what free incentives could anyone, private or public, offer to Amazon in downtown Houston that Amazon can't get from another city? The astrodome already has 105 million approved for renovations. That's a great incentive for the corporate welfare sweepstakes of the century. 

I have a hard time believing $100M will do much for a conversion anywhere close to what Amazon wants. Yeah, I know Rackspace was able to convert Windsor Park Mall into something they could use for about the same price (same size too) but they were able to use the main mall corridors and general layout, whereas the Astrodome would be completely gutted and totally rebuilt, and they're probably going to want their own parking and land as well. The worst outcome would be for the Astrodome to actually be chosen but have it break down because Harris County Sports and Convention Corporation doesn't want to part with the parking lot between NRG Arena and NRG Center. Could you believe if that happened? They'll talk about that one for years.

 

Realistically, the only thing the Astrodome has going for it is light rail access and a fairly centralized (non-suburban) location. Gosh, if only there was some large vacant tract of land near the Astrodome with light rail access.

[HOUTEX]

Not to be disrespectful here, but the Astrodome site is a non-starter unless you're talking about razing the structure. It's totally inappropriate for an office building and has nothing of note for around it for the population that would inhabit it. 

 

800 Bell/Post HTX and East River are far more conducive candidates. You could say nothing is around East River, but that's as much a positive as a detraction, since everything can be built new and to suite Amazon without the imposition of building around existing improvements. 

[102IAHexpress]

9 minutes ago, HOUTEX said:

Not to be disrespectful here, but the Astrodome site is a non-starter unless you're talking about razing the structure. It's totally inappropriate for an office building...

 

Amazon's first corporate headquarters was in an old government hospital (Pacific Tower) in Seattle. Is an old hospital totally inappropriate for an office building? I'm sure some thought so back then, but Amazon made it work. 

 

 

[HOUTEX]

No, because it at least has habitable floor plates and windows. 

 

What are you going to do with a 700-foot wide building? Have corridor upon corridor upon corridor of cubicles without windows, or facing into a vacant expanse under a roof? I couldn't begin to imagine the heating and cooling costs for that volume of air. Even Apple's circular building is just a big donut with another bay of windows facing into a green field. 

[102IAHexpress]

43 minutes ago, HOUTEX said:

No, because it at least has habitable floor plates and windows. 

 

What are you going to do with a 700-foot wide building? Have corridor upon corridor upon corridor of cubicles without windows, or facing into a vacant expanse under a roof? 

 

No.  But, If you have 105 million of free money the sky is the limit. The astrodome is 42 million cubic feet of indoor space.  So, I would just build structures inside the dome: kind of like this

 

 

Then, surround the indoor astrodome campus with parks, trails, rock walls, or whatever else millennials deem desirable. Outside the dome you have more free space with the astrodome parking lots which could also be given away for free. 

 

 

[IronTiger]

I predict that what Amazon wants is a campus, not an office building. That would rule out 800 Bell, and put the advantage of what other cities are offering, basically rehabbed greenfield space. Now, can the Astrodome make a great flagship to a campus? Probably. It would certainly be an interesting (if somewhat impractical) re-use of the building but expecting them to share parking with, say, the Rodeo and other NRG events is wishful thinking.

 

Basically, what is Amazon looking for?

 

If that thing about diversity and mass transit is just to keep small cities out of the running and not actually conducive to the actual in-city location, then they'll probably go for the suburbs. Hockley, Katy, The Woodlands...somewhere like that.

 

If they're looking for a place near the city's core and a redevelopment opportunity, then KBR is a decent site.

 

If they're explicitly looking for downtown, then 800 Bell but also adjacent blocks to make more of a campus, similar to their current Seattle HQ. This would also making parking challenging, but its doable.

 

If they're looking for a place in the city but not suburbs, then Astroworld's site is better. It still has light rail access, and it's right next to the highway.

[ToryGattis]

18 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

No.  But, If you have 105 million of free money the sky is the limit. The astrodome is 42 million cubic feet of indoor space.  So, I would just build structures inside the dome: kind of like this

 

 

Then, surround the indoor astrodome campus with parks, trails, rock walls, or whatever else millennials deem desirable. Outside the dome you have more free space with the astrodome parking lots which could also be given away for free. 

 

 

This is really interesting.  Facebook's main HQ building is a massive single-floor open concept building with 430k sq.ft and 2800 employees (and a park on top!).  Can somebody do the sq. footage math on concentric circular floorplates rising inside the Astrodome? (so each higher level has a wider hole in the middle allowing light to the lower floors, and no internal roofs are necessary like in the pics above)  I'll bet it could easily be the 500+k they need to start, with room for new buildings expansion to the south and east towards the old Astroworld site (which might need to become parking for NRG if the parking next to the Astrodome gets converted into a campus).  It could be integrated into a growing TMC expansion to the south to revamp the whole area.  Their urban employees could live along the LRT, and their suburban family employees could have a short commute up 90a/Main St. and 288 (or even a southern rail expansion) from very nice yet affordable southern suburbs - best of both worlds.  They'd have easy access to the convention center for events and even NRG stadium if they want to have a corporate event with all 50,000 employees at once!

 

It is a real advantage that the only signoffs on the whole plan would be the county, the rodeo, and the Texans.  Relatively speaking, that's a pretty small group to get on board.  As long as their parking and space needs are met with offsetting space elsewhere (including potentially the old Astroworld site), I don't think it would be a hard sell.

Edited October 5, 2017 by ToryGattis

[HOUTEX]

As if there needed to be more evidence that people in Houston have no clue how to do urban development...

[Houston19514]

I can't recall a post I've ever made about which I feel as confident as this one:

 

The Astrodome will not become Amazon's headquarters.  Will. Not. Happen.

 

Rodeo

Texans

Offshore Technology Conference

Future Super Bowls

Future NCAA Final Fours and Regional tournaments

Future World Cups 

Texas Bowl

Other events at NRG Stadium and NRG Center

 

All the above make the idea of plopping thousands of Amazon employees in the Astrodome unworkable.  When you talk about plopping additional buildings on the grounds to house all 50,000 employees it becomes a complete laugh-fest. It will not happen. (Or even be seriously proposed by anyone with the least bit of real knowledge about the Astrodome, NRG Park and their operations.)

 

The Astroworld property could be a possibility and I hope it is included in Houston's proposals.  If they want to go for a greenfield site, the Astroworld site would check a lot of boxes.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

20 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

No.  But, If you have 105 million of free money the sky is the limit. The astrodome is 42 million cubic feet of indoor space.  So, I would just build structures inside the dome:

 

LOL  105 million doesn't go as far as you seem to think it does. 

[102IAHexpress]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

LOL  105 million doesn't go as far as you seem to think it does. 

 

How many millions in free incentives can the private developers of 800 bell and/or the old KBR site offer? lol. That's the main problem, a private developer can't justify to his partners playing the corporate welfare game. 

[HOUTEX]

I was under the impression that the $105M is only to add parking under the ground level of the Astrodome...which is great if you're going to park thousands of cars for nearby events, but does nothing to renovate the structure and turn it into something viable for an office building. The proposition to turn it into a convention center, which would have mode the most of the huge (385,000 SF!) floor plates, was for over $217M. You could build three new class-A office buildings with 750,000 SF of combined space for that amount. 

[Chris Alexander]

The $105 M project is not just for the parking under the ground level, it's mainly to create the ground level. There is no ground level now; in other words there's no street level floor. The old playing field is 25 ft below street level. Building a floor at street level is the first necessary step to make the building usable. It's not intended as the last step. The project also includes adding new visitor entrances at street level; the old public entrances were at 10 ft. above street level, up ramps. It's not accurate to say that the money is doing nothing to renovate the building.

 

There are no plans or serious proposals to make the Dome viable as an office building. A big part of its planned purpose is still to be an exhibition/event hall (not technically a convention center, that term was used inaccurately by news media). The reason the cost this time is half that of the previous proposal is that this one doesn't include money to renovate the upper floors. And also there was some serious decorative fru-fru in that earlier proposal, which has been stripped away.

 

It's a good plan that will get revenue, activity and most importantly people back into the building. Future improvements will be funded and completed separately, a marathon not a sprint.

[IronTiger]

6 hours ago, Chris Alexander said:

I've now read the entire thread and Tory Gattis's linked article. A few thoughts about the Astrodome as HQ2. First, to cut to the chase, it's not going to happen. Rodeo and NFL/Texans would veto in a nanosecond. The only way Amazon would get that building is if they purchase both RODEOHOUSTON and the Houston Texans. Then there's the complicating factor that the property is owned by Harris County, so the city can't actually submit a proposal to Amazon without full county partnership. City and county are getting along well, but I would be stunned to see that happening by October 19, two weeks from now. 
 

Absolutely. I keep saying that even if the Astrodome was renovated into an office building (at more than $100M, realistically), parking would be an issue, and thinking Amazon and the sports venues could share parking is absolutely not going to happen.

 

But if there is the "existing buildings" caveat (which I must have missed in reading) that really puts the KBR site up front. I don't think KBR's lack of mass transit is an issue, it's unrealistic if they wanted to be near a rail-based mass transit in most cities, and I contend that the mass transit requirement was just to filter out small MSAs.

 

[Chris Alexander]

Bike, bus and bayou may be an agreeable transit mix for the Amazon culture.

 

Choosing KBR would be visionary and disruptive in the best sense. Anybody have a sense of how visionary and disruptive Amazon is likely to be? 

 

Photo: a bike path along the bayou east of downtown at the silo ruins.

[102IAHexpress]

I can't recall a post I've ever made about which I feel as confident as this one:

The KBR site will not become Amazon's headquarters.  Will. Not. Happen.

 

Don't get me wrong, that site is a great blank canvas. I hope Amazon picks that location, it would be great for that part of town. However I just don't see it happening. The fact that a wealthy private company abandoned it and other private companies have not had interest in the land is telling. Also, what freebies can the Midway developers offer Amazon? Amazon is playing hardball and will want as much freebies as possible. That's why I believe government owned land, whether it's in Houston, Denver, Boston, etc. will be most likely as a future HQ2 site.

[gmac]

I wouldn't give Amazon a dime to locate here. Tax-dodging Bezos can pay his own way.

[Chris Alexander]

6 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

"...a wealthy private company abandoned it and other private companies have not had interest in the land is telling..."

KBR has had its own issues. Not sure its abandonment of the site has anything to do with the site. As far as ther companies lack of interest, well maybe you're right, but then again that entire area is just now on the cusp of turning into something new. I was just looking at the site on Google map. It's an awesome canvas with two existing buildings. There's more property around there that they could acquire. Freeway access is excellent and the Metro 30 runs right by it. And downtown is RIGHT THERE. If I were Bezos I would jump on this like a duck on a junebug.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Chris Alexander

[IronTiger]

16 hours ago, Chris Alexander said:

KBR has had its own issues. Not sure its abandonment of the site has anything to do with the site. As far as ther companies lack of interest, well maybe you're right, but then again that entire area is just now on the cusp of turning into something new. I was just looking at the site on Google map. It's an awesome canvas with two existing buildings. There's more property around there that they could acquire. Freeway access is excellent and the Metro 30 runs right by it. And downtown is RIGHT THERE. If I were Bezos I would jump on this like a duck on a junebug.

 

From casual observation, KBR's site was oversized. At one time they had a huge industrial operation there with warehouses and railroad spurs coming in from several lines, but divorced from that it was just a few office buildings in a not so great part of town.

 

22 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

I can't recall a post I've ever made about which I feel as confident as this one:

The KBR site will not become Amazon's headquarters.  Will. Not. Happen.

 

Don't get me wrong, that site is a great blank canvas. I hope Amazon picks that location, it would be great for that part of town. However I just don't see it happening. The fact that a wealthy private company abandoned it and other private companies have not had interest in the land is telling. Also, what freebies can the Midway developers offer Amazon? Amazon is playing hardball and will want as much freebies as possible. That's why I believe government owned land, whether it's in Houston, Denver, Boston, etc. will be most likely as a future HQ2 site.

 

I find it laughable that you think that KBR is an impossibility but the Astrodome isn't.

[102IAHexpress]

4 hours ago, IronTiger said:

 

I find it laughable that you think that KBR is an impossibility but the Astrodome isn't.

 

I find it laughable that not one supporter of the KBR site idea is able to list at least one freebie that the private investors at Midway are willing to offer to Amazon. No one has because Midway is a private company with private investors who have no desire to be on the opposite end of the corporate welfare game. And you can't blame them. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit with Amazon's plan of wanting as much for free as possible. If Midway want's to maximize their profits on this potential deal, as they should, then the kbr site is an impossibility. 

 

I'm not saying I love the astrodome idea, I'm just saying Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. 

 

[HOUTEX]

1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

I find it laughable that not one supporter of the KBR site idea is able to list at least one freebie that the private investors at Midway are willing to offer to Amazon. No one has because Midway is a private company with private investors who have no desire to be on the opposite end of the corporate welfare game. And you can't blame them. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit with Amazon's plan of wanting as much for free as possible. If Midway want's to maximize their profits on this potential deal, as they should, then the kbr site is an impossibility. 

 

I'm not saying I love the astrodome idea, I'm just saying Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. 

 

 

 

Enlighten us as to what the other privately owned sites around town will be offering...cause the Astrodome isn't going to make the cut and frankly should be dropped from conversation. 

Edited October 8, 2017 by HOUTEX

[102IAHexpress]

Only 15 posts and already going to animated gifs instead of answering a simple question. 

[HOUTEX]

That's not an answer. 

 

The "simple question," and the argument that private sites can't compete with publicly owned land, is a strawman fallacy. You're asking for info that's almost assuredly behind NDA's and private conversations--no one here has it. And it's the wrong thing to focus on, too. 

 

Why? Because, Amazon doesn't need a free site. They buy and rent a tremendous amount of real estate at market value, have a solid credit rating, and can go wherever they please. Incentives will be a factor only when the real driving needs of the selection process have filtered out the non-contending cities: access to workforce, compatible cultures, a place at the table with city elders, etc. (Great article here: https://medium.com/migration-issues/no-room-at-the-inn-for-amazon-effda4edc00f)

 

Amazon will get incentives for any given city from the state, and any given city will have their own incentive package for the variety of sites they submit. Developer incentives aren't going to move the needle very much beyond what the state and city can do because, as correctly pointed out, they're all for-profit and have to make risk adjusted returns for their stakeholders, but also because their relatively minuscule in comparison to the public sphere.

 

[ToryGattis]

In bidding for Amazon, Houston leaders see catalyst for growth -- win or lose

Crafting proposal gets leaders thinking about city's future

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/In-bidding-for-Amazon-Houston-leaders-see-12261295.php

[IronTiger]

8 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

I find it laughable that not one supporter of the KBR site idea is able to list at least one freebie that the private investors at Midway are willing to offer to Amazon. No one has because Midway is a private company with private investors who have no desire to be on the opposite end of the corporate welfare game. And you can't blame them. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit with Amazon's plan of wanting as much for free as possible. If Midway want's to maximize their profits on this potential deal, as they should, then the kbr site is an impossibility. 

 

I'm not saying I love the astrodome idea, I'm just saying Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. 

 

The Astrodome is a lose/lose situation. Incentives are absolutely not going to be the deciding factor, or some powerful local politician can push around taxpayer money to get Amazon in a city obviously unfit for it. Besides, for the Astrodome to work, $105M or whatever Harris Co. wants to offer won't cover the renovations that need to happen for it to be used as office space. Imagine if you were offered $100,000 if you took a deed to a historic home that was in poor condition, but to really make it liveable and keep the "historic" designation, you calculate it would take $500,000 to renovate it. Conversely, you figure you can build the home that you really want for $250,000. (I know some of these numbers seem off for what homes should be worth, just roll with it).

 

Incentives are worth nothing if you have to put more into it than get out of it. And no, $100k is not going to cover much at the scale you're talking. Half of that is just for construction of parking underneath, and most of the wilder ideas that have come out are far more expensive than $100k. Just to get it up to code is going to going to be incredibly expensive, and we're not even talking about logistical problems like parking.

 

Fact: the KBR site, while problematic, is probably Houston's best chance at attracting Amazon. If the Astrodome is the best chance, then guess where Amazon will be located? Not Houston.

[Chris Alexander]

9 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. 

 

No. They can't get the Astrodome at all, because it's not available for such use. County Judge Emmett (Harris County owns the building), has said many times that any outside developer has to pay the full cost of the redevelopment. The judge's stock quote is "show me the money." And the money to physically convert that building on that property pales compared to the money Bezos & Co. would have to put up to essentially buy out the HLSR and Texans 30-year lease contracts, because such a use violates those contracts in ways the current tenants consider unacceptable. Continued discussion of supposed viabilty of the Dome as HQ2 is an indulgent fantasy. it's not going to happen. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow

[Chris Alexander]

27 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

...$100k is not going to cover much at the scale you're talking. Half of that is just for construction of parking underneath, and most of the wilder ideas that have come out are far more expensive than $100k. Just to get it up to code is going to going to be incredibly expensive...

 

Fact: the KBR site, while problematic, is probably Houston's best chance at attracting Amazon. If the Astrodome is the best chance, then guess where Amazon will be located? Not Houston.

While I strongly agree with your conclusion, I want to clarify that the $105 million (not thousands) includes the two lower levels of parking and a new street level floor with newly configured street level entrances AND getting at least those three levels up to code with visitor comfort amenities. The street level floor is actually more important for the building's future than the parking garage. It should also be noted that $10.5 million of that has already been spent on architectural and engineering design work by Kirksey Architecture, work that is now more than halfway completed. So the actual construction part will be $94.5 million, not $105 million. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow

[Chris Alexander]

From today's Chron.com article:

 

"...Houston Chief Development Officer Andy Icken said there's plenty of available land for Amazon's campus between downtown and the Texas Medical Center, an area dense with some of the city's most innovative companies."

So where is this available land between downtown and the TMC? Are they proposing to knock down Midtown? Bulldoze Montrose? Flatten Fourth Ward?

[Houston19514]

9 hours ago, Chris Alexander said:

From today's Chron.com article:

 

"...Houston Chief Development Officer Andy Icken said there's plenty of available land for Amazon's campus between downtown and the Texas Medical Center, an area dense with some of the city's most innovative companies."

So where is this available land between downtown and the TMC? Are they proposing to knock down Midtown? Bulldoze Montrose? Flatten Fourth Ward?

 

I saw that quote too.  I think he must have been using that phrase (in the way people often do) to mean TMC and downtown combined, not physically between.. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Houston19514

[gmac]

Nice big space in the V between the 59 branches. Knock down Sears and Fiesta and everything else south of Colquitt and west of Eagle. Sell it to Amazon at fair market value, and then tax the crap out of them

[samagon]

On 10/4/2017 at 1:10 PM, Mr.Clean19 said:

On 10/3/2017 at 11:28 AM, HOUTEX said:

Sorry in advance HOUTEX but i cant figure out how to delete this reference box in my chat box and it wont let me type anywhere else. So the the liability argument is out the window with the flooding. This property didnt take on water over the last 5 years. Its probably the least risky property in Houston from flooding. The Warehouses and amount of adjacent open land will be re-developed and is essentially an open floor plan for the developers to buy and create what they want. Chicago can compare at a price, technical resource, or ability to expand like Houston can.

 

hit enter a few times, it will get you out of the 'quote' box and into your own text area, then hit backspace. Someone had to tell me how to do it as well.

 

15 hours ago, Chris Alexander said:

No. They can't get the Astrodome at all, because it's not available for such use. County Judge Emmett (Harris County owns the building), has said many times that any outside developer has to pay the full cost of the redevelopment. The judge's stock quote is "show me the money." And the money to physically convert that building on that property pales compared to the money Bezos & Co. would have to put up to essentially buy out the HLSR and Texans 30-year lease contracts, because such a use violates those contracts in ways the current tenants consider unacceptable. Continued discussion of supposed viabilty of the Dome as HQ2 is an indulgent fantasy. it's not going to happen. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow

 

it's probably more to do with that anything that is done to the astrodome has to be voted for by the public. as has been proven, no matter what is the wording on the ballot, the vote is always no...

 

Should we tear down the astrodome? NO!!

Should we rebuild the astrodome into ... ? NO!!

Should we leave the astrodome as is? NO!!

 

So I feel the vote would result in the same answer.

[HOUTEX]

http://swamplot.com/the-fifth-ward-building-with-amazons-wall-street-name-and-jeff-bezoss-fast-action-concept-in-lights/2017-10-09/

 

[jgriff]

What amenities are within walking distance of the KBR site?  A Yelp search for restaurants in the area pulls up a big fat 0.  I don't see this as a realistic option for Amazon. 

[IronTiger]

On 10/8/2017 at 11:49 PM, Chris Alexander said:

While I strongly agree with your conclusion, I want to clarify that the $105 million (not thousands) includes the two lower levels of parking and a new street level floor with newly configured street level entrances AND getting at least those three levels up to code with visitor comfort amenities. The street level floor is actually more important for the building's future than the parking garage. It should also be noted that $10.5 million of that has already been spent on architectural and engineering design work by Kirksey Architecture, work that is now more than halfway completed. So the actual construction part will be $94.5 million, not $105 million. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow

Yeah, I know I wrote "k" but in my head I still meant million. Everything else is correct though.

 

9 minutes ago, jgriff said:

What amenities are within walking distance of the KBR site?  A Yelp search for restaurants in the area pulls up a big fat 0.  I don't see this as a realistic option for Amazon. 

At one time, there was a fast food restaurant at the corner of Hirsch and Clinton, though by the mid-1990s that had gotten absorbed into Brown & Root's property with a new building occupying the premises.

 

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, jgriff said:

What amenities are within walking distance of the KBR site?  A Yelp search for restaurants in the area pulls up a big fat 0.  I don't see this as a realistic option for Amazon. 

 

Here's the Seattle Times' description of Amazon's Seattle neighborhood, pre-Amazon:

 

"Less a neighborhood than a patchwork of parking lots, warehouses and low-slung industrial buildings. It felt like a ghost town, even at midday."

 

If Amazon chooses that site (or whatever site Amazon chooses), amenities will spring up in no time. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Houston19514