Amazon HQ2

[Houston19514]

8 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes "hip." You're right that there is an opera and ballet here, but those don't really cater to the younger crowd. Restaurants are fine and all, but I don't see how they're any better or worse than what's in Portland (or Atlanta, or Nashville for that matter). I also don't see what architecture has to do with anything. In fact, the only thing that's been suggested as to why Houston is good for millennials (and thus a hip city) is that it's cheap -- not that it has much of anything else going on. 

 

As for your second point, I agree insofar as we don't know what Amazon wants exactly. You're right they don't want a Sacramento or Omaha, but I don't see why Houston is a better choice than say Dallas, or Atlanta, or Nashville, or Pittsburgh. Those cities can exceed (or at the very least match) what financial incentives we offer ("meat and potatoes") while also offering better PR (no hurricanes) and more hipness. 

 

Again, I think your point about the need to infuse more new economy businesses into Houston is on point. I just don't see the path forward with what this city has to offer currently.

 

What do Dallas, Atlanta, Nashville and Pittsburgh have that makes them more hip than Houston?

 

Here's a fun article from the Huffington Post about Houston being one of the country's coolest cities.  I guess maybe cool is different than hip.  ;-)

[Vy65]

3 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

What do Dallas, Atlanta, Nashville and Pittsburgh have that makes them more hip than Houston?

 

Nashville has an incredibly vibrant music industry. Atlanta does to, but to a lesser degree. 

 

Dallas has a larger fashion/design industry. If I can include Fort Worth, there is also a larger art scene there. 

 

Pittsburgh, I know less of and am going on reputation, but my understanding is that there’s been an urban revitalization there to make the city more in the mold of Portland. 

 

More to the point, each of those cities have the perception of being hipper than Houston. And while you’d expect Amazon to pierce through PR bs, they also have shareholders (who’ll go off perception) to appease. 

[H-Town Man]

1 minute ago, Vy65 said:

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes "hip." You're right that there is an opera and ballet here, but those don't really cater to the younger crowd. Restaurants are fine and all, but I don't see how they're any better or worse than what's in Portland (or Atlanta, or Nashville for that matter). I also don't see what architecture has to do with anything. In fact, the only thing that's been suggested as to why Houston is good for millennials (and thus a hip city) is that it's cheap -- not that it has much of anything else going on. 

 

As for your second point, I agree insofar as we don't know what Amazon wants exactly. You're right they don't want a Sacramento or Omaha, but I don't see why Houston is a better choice than say Dallas, or Atlanta, or Nashville, or Pittsburgh. Those cities can exceed (or at the very least match) what financial incentives we offer ("meat and potatoes") while also offering better PR (no hurricanes) and more hipness. 

 

Again, I think your point about the need to infuse more new economy businesses into Houston is on point. I just don't see the path forward with what this city has to offer currently.

 

Our restaurants are pretty well above the cities you mentioned. If more people aren't aware of that, we need to learn how to make them aware. There's an opera and ballet, yes, and there's also an art museum that is head and shoulders above anything in those other cities. Not all millennials are deaf and blind to any culture that was produced before they were born, even if that is the impression one gets sometimes. As for architecture, even if you aren't very knowledgeable about it, great architecture across a cityscape has an impact on anyone. And we have an impressive cityscape.

 

I really think some of us don't understand how great are the things we have. We've grown up reading these articles about how Houston has a bad image, etc., and it's kind of sunk in. If there is one thing we can legitimately learn from Dallas, it is the way they market themselves. You have the landscape of Oklahoma with a bunch of glitzy buildings, the culture of King of the Hill with a few garnishes, and they market it like it's a new Los Angeles, and actually convince people to go there. I'll never understand how they can be ahead of us in the image department, and it's really our own fault for letting them be.

 

 

[Vy65]

2 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Our restaurants are pretty well above the cities you mentioned. If more people aren't aware of that, we need to learn how to make them aware. There's an opera and ballet, yes, and there's also an art museum that is head and shoulders above anything in those other cities. Not all millennials are deaf and blind to any culture that was produced before they were born, even if that is the impression one gets sometimes. As for architecture, even if you aren't very knowledgeable about it, great architecture across a cityscape has an impact on anyone. And we have an impressive cityscape.

 

I really think some of us don't understand how great are the things we have. We've grown up reading these articles about how Houston has a bad image, etc., and it's kind of sunk in. If there is one thing we can legitimately learn from Dallas, it is the way they market themselves. You have the landscape of Oklahoma with a bunch of glitzy buildings, the culture of King of the Hill with a few garnishes, and they market it like it's a new Los Angeles, and actually convince people to go there. I'll never understand how they can be ahead of us in the image department, and it's really our own fault for letting them be.

 

Having lived in Dallas for a couple of years, you hit the nail on the head. 

[Houston19514]

15 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

Nashville has an incredibly vibrant music industry. Atlanta does to, but to a lesser degree. 

 

Dallas has a larger fashion/design industry. If I can include Fort Worth, there is also a larger art scene there. 

 

Pittsburgh, I know less of and am going on reputation, but my understanding is that there’s been an urban revitalization there to make the city more in the mold of Portland. 

 

More to the point, each of those cities have the perception of being hipper than Houston. And while you’d expect Amazon to pierce through PR bs, they also have shareholders (who’ll go off perception) to appease. 

 

This the typical frustrating Houston attitude.  Focus on the fact that one city has a more vibrant music industry, while ignoring the fact that Houston beats that city in pretty much every other category -- restaurants, museums, performing arts,  etc etc.  Another city has a larger fashion industry, again ignoring that Houston has better restaurants, museums, performing arts, etc etc. 

 

What is it about Houstonians that makes us so afraid of touting what we have instead of focusing on the items we lack? 

[Houston19514]

4 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

Having lived in Dallas for a couple of years, you hit the nail on the head. 

 

and yet you claim Dallas is more hip than Houston.

[Vy65]

1 minute ago, Houston19514 said:

 

This the typical frustrating Houston attitude.  Focus on the fact that one city has a more vibrant music industry, while ignoring the fact that Houston beats that city in pretty much every other category -- restaurants, museums, performing arts,  etc etc.  Another city has a larger fashion industry, again ignoring that Houston has better restaurants, museums, performing arts, etc etc. 

 

Well, the question you asked was: what makes Nashville more hip than Houston. I answered. It wasn’t: which city is more well-rounded. 

 

Phoenix has more restaurants, museums, etc... than Nashville or Austin. Would you say Phoenix is more hip than either? 

[Vy65]

2 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

and yet you claim Dallas is more hip than Houston.

 

Another issue is that I don’t see how having a symphony/ballet/opera and some museums makes a city “cool” (in the admittedly vague way I’m using that term). Those amenities are associated with older, not younger, generations. 

[Houston19514]

3 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

Well, the question you asked was: what makes Nashville more hip than Houston. I answered. It wasn’t: which city is more well-rounded. 

 

Phoenix has more restaurants, museums, etc... than Nashville or Austin. Would you say Phoenix is more hip than either? 

 

If hipness is defined by the mere presence of one "hip" industry, I doubt Amazon will give it much consideration.

[Vy65]

In other news: http://realtynewsreport.com/2017/10/18/rice-university-supporting-houstons-bid-for-amazons-massive-second-headquarters/

 

I had this thought when it was announced last week that Rice had purchased the Sears lot.

[H-Town Man]

13 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

Another issue is that I don’t see how having a symphony/ballet/opera and some museums makes a city “cool” (in the admittedly vague way I’m using that term). Those amenities are associated with older, not younger, generations. 

 

Like I said, not all millennials are deaf and blind to any culture that was produced before they were born. It's not all live music and weirdness. Having great fine arts across the board doesn't by itself make you cool, but it doesn't hurt.  When Chicago lured Boeing, the visiting delegation was served a white tablecloth dinner in the Art Institute of Chicago. Dallas gave them all a Dirk Nowitzki bobbin'-head doll. They chose Chicago. If we rented out the MFAH for a night, or maybe the Wortham upstairs lobby, I think it could make an impression.

 

We're also losing sight of the fact that Houston is in Texas, and we are renowned for our economic engine and business climate. Bezos has investments in Texas and seems to trust the place. They might already have Texas penciled in and are just looking at bids. I think Austin loses on costs and lack of non-stop flights, and if we put together a compelling site bid, we may win out over Dallas.

 

[102IAHexpress]

It would be helpful to separate the worthiness of Houston as a potential relocation city v. the worthiness of your favorite area in Houston as a relocation area.

 

Houston as a whole is a great candidate city. Our bus system is the most efficient and reliable of all the southern cities. We have a reasonable mayor and council. Low tax pro business state. Relatively low land prices. Great restaurants, entertainment and music, and fine arts options. Murder rate not as bad as other cities. Two big airports, and a major research university.

 

Companies are already relocating to Houston every month because of the above mentioned reasons. However, none of those companies are relocating to the old KBR site. 

[Mr.Clean19]

3 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

It would be helpful to separate the worthiness of Houston as a potential relocation city v. the worthiness of your favorite area in Houston as a relocation area.

 

Houston as a whole is a great candidate city. Our bus system is the most efficient and reliable of all the southern cities. We have a reasonable mayor and council. Low tax pro business state. Relatively low land prices. Great restaurants, entertainment and music, and fine arts options. Murder rate not as bad as other cities. Two big airports, and a major research university.

 

Companies are already relocating to Houston every month because of the above mentioned reasons. However, none of those companies are relocating to the old KBR site. 

This company is looking for something very different than what typical transplants have been looking for. Whereas other transplants are ok moving further west and require less space, Amazon is interested in an Urban feel. With the KBR lot, there is a Chicken or the Egg thing happening. Everyone is waiting on the lot to do something before they develop the large amounts of open land around the area, and Midway is having trouble bringing in clients because there is nothing around (Besides TNP adjacent). 

 

If Amazon approaches this the same way they did their first office location, they should easily see the potential and that commercial/residential/transportation will develop around the lot. 

[Vy65]

12 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Like I said, not all millennials are deaf and blind to any culture that was produced before they were born. It's not all live music and weirdness. Having great fine arts across the board doesn't by itself make you cool, but it doesn't hurt.  When Chicago lured Boeing, the visiting delegation was served a white tablecloth dinner in the Art Institute of Chicago. Dallas gave them all a Dirk Nowitzki bobbin'-head doll. They chose Chicago. If we rented out the MFAH for a night, or maybe the Wortham upstairs lobby, I think it could make an impression.

 

We're also losing sight of the fact that Houston is in Texas, and we are renowned for our economic engine and business climate. Bezos has investments in Texas and seems to trust the place. They might already have Texas penciled in and are just looking at bids. I think Austin loses on costs and lack of non-stop flights, and if we put together a compelling site bid, we may win out over Dallas.

 

 

For all of Dallas’ stupidity (see, bobble head), can we really beat the financial package they’ll offer (with our financial resources likely dedicated to recovery). The way I see it is: if Amazon is keen on Houston, why wouldn’t they choose Dallas? They have everything Houston has (pro-business environment, multiple airports, etc...) but none of the attendant risks. Plus, their financial package is likely going to be better because they’re not forced to pay for reconstruction. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see how we can put a better package together. 

[Houston19514]

13 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

For all of Dallas’ stupidity (see, bobble head), can we really beat the financial package they’ll offer (with our financial resources likely dedicated to recovery). The way I see it is: if Amazon is keen on Houston, why wouldn’t they choose Dallas? They have everything Houston has (pro-business environment, multiple airports, etc...) but none of the attendant risks. Plus, their financial package is likely going to be better because they’re not forced to pay for reconstruction. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see how we can put a better package together. 

 

Let's take the "Kick me" sign off our back already.  Dallas does not have everything Houston has.  And it's way past time for us to stop telling the world it does.

[H-Town Man]

8 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

For all of Dallas’ stupidity (see, bobble head), can we really beat the financial package they’ll offer (with our financial resources likely dedicated to recovery). The way I see it is: if Amazon is keen on Houston, why wouldn’t they choose Dallas? They have everything Houston has (pro-business environment, multiple airports, etc...) but none of the attendant risks. Plus, their financial package is likely going to be better because they’re not forced to pay for reconstruction. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see how we can put a better package together. 

 

Here's the thing about incentives packages. You don't actually pay them money. You just tell them they'll never have to pay any taxes. You can also promise to improve roads and infrastructure, and then just throw the burden on those departments, to be paid for eventually. It's really easy to do an incentives package. All you really need is a public that is willing to let another Fortune 500 skate by without paying for their fair share of the things that middle-class homeowners all pay for, and we have that here.

 

[Houston19514]

46 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Companies are already relocating to Houston every month because of the above mentioned reasons. However, none of those companies are relocating to the old KBR site. 

 

Please show us sites being proposed in any city about which the same cannot be said. By definition, Amazon will be going to a site that has not been previously chosen by a relocating company.

[Mr.Clean19]

16 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Here's the thing about incentives packages. You don't actually pay them money. You just tell them they'll never have to pay any taxes. You can also promise to improve roads and infrastructure, and then just throw the burden on those departments, to be paid for eventually. It's really easy to do an incentives package. All you really need is a public that is willing to let another Fortune 500 skate by without paying for their fair share of the things that middle-class homeowners all pay for, and we have that here.

 

Also, the East River site has TIRZ 18 and TIRZ 23 on it. 

[HOUTEX]

3 hours ago, Vy65 said:

 

For all of Dallas’ stupidity (see, bobble head), can we really beat the financial package they’ll offer (with our financial resources likely dedicated to recovery). The way I see it is: if Amazon is keen on Houston, why wouldn’t they choose Dallas? They have everything Houston has (pro-business environment, multiple airports, etc...) but none of the attendant risks. Plus, their financial package is likely going to be better because they’re not forced to pay for reconstruction. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see how we can put a better package together. 

 

Having lived in Dallas most of my life there’s a big time cultural difference in just the way the people act. Doesn’t show up on paper, but there’s a tangible difference. 

 

Don’t get me wrong, the Dallas burbs are a great place to raise kids and it’s a good fit for a Toyota or State Farm, etc. but as a corporate “fit” for the type of company Amazon is, and their employees are, Houston easily wins. This city actually has soul. Dallas is sterile. 

 

Houston does not do a good job presenting itself though, which Dallas excels at. 

[102IAHexpress]

19 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Please show us sites being proposed in any city about which the same cannot be said. By definition. Amazon will be going to a site that has not been previously chosen by a relocating company.

 

Sure. Try all of them.

 

In Chicago for example there are abandoned buildings along the Chicago river that have been discussed as potential HQ2 buildings. Now, have those buildings been previously passed-over by other companies relocating? yes. However, other companies have relocated to the area and relocated to different abandoned buildings along the Chicago river. 

 

For example, If a company ignores a site in downtown Houston but chooses another site in downtown Houston, then that speaks more about a particular site then the area of downtown as a whole. The KBR site and the area around it have been ignored by potential commercial tenants, which I believe speaks about that area as a whole.

 

The KBR site is uniquely bad because it is void of developments not just on the KBR site itself but the surrounding neighborhood as well. 

 

[Houston19514]

2 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Sure. Try all of them.

 

In Chicago for example there are abandoned buildings along the Chicago river that have been discussed as potential HQ2 buildings. Now, have those buildings been previously passed-over by other companies relocating? yes. However, other companies have relocated to the area and relocated to different abandoned buildings along the Chicago river. 

 

For example, If a company ignores a site in downtown Houston but chooses another site in downtown Houston, then that speaks more about a particular site then the area of downtown as a whole. The KBR site and the area around it have been ignored by potential commercial tenants, which I believe speaks about that area as a whole.

 

The KBR site is uniquely bad because it is void of developments not just on the KBR site itself but the surrounding neighborhood as well. 

 

 

I guess your definition of area,  and whether it's the area or the site that is the problem, is all flexible as needed for whatever point you want to make at the moment.  (Not long ago you commented about the fact that the KBR site had failed to develop despite being near MinuteMaid Park and Toyota Center.)

[Vy65]

1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

Let's take the "Kick me" sign off our back already.  Dallas does not have everything Houston has.  And it's way past time for us to stop telling the world it does.

 

Like what? As other posters have noted, there is a tangible cultural difference, sure. But in terms of infrastructure, incentives, workforce, etc... (i.e., everything that will be relevant for HQ2 placement), what does Houston have that Dallas doesn't?

[Houston19514]

4 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

Like what? As other posters have noted, there is a tangible cultural difference, sure. But in terms of infrastructure, incentives, workforce, etc... (i.e., everything that will be relevant for HQ2 placement), what does Houston have that Dallas doesn't?

 

Sites that meet the requirements, including 500,000 square feet that can be ready by 2019.  And cultural elements are also on Amazon's list.  So tangible cultural differences are important.

 

[Vy65]

Just now, Houston19514 said:

Sites that meet the requirements, including 500,000 square feet that can be ready by 2019.

 

Doesn't their victory park proposal meet that? I'll confess to not researching the issue, but at first blush, it looked like it worked. 

[Houston19514]

2 minutes ago, Vy65 said:

 

Doesn't their victory park proposal meet that? I'll confess to not researching the issue, but at first blush, it looked like it worked. 

 

They don't have 500,000 square feet that can be ready by 2019.  Pretty sure it's all new-build.

 

(And in case you missed it, note I also added that tangible cultural difference are indeed relevant.  I believe culture is also on Amazon's list.)

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Sure. Try all of them.

 

In Chicago for example there are abandoned buildings along the Chicago river that have been discussed as potential HQ2 buildings. Now, have those buildings been previously passed-over by other companies relocating? yes. However, other companies have relocated to the area and relocated to different abandoned buildings along the Chicago river. 

 

 

The site in Chicago is a big wasteland on the south branch of the river that has been sitting there for 30 years, next to some of the worst neighborhoods on planet earth. Combine that with the worst city and state governments any corporation would ever want to be under and we can safely say that their proposal is a nonstarter.

 

As far as Dallas and Victory, that is some really expensive land squeezed next to a giant freeway that is about to get bigger. If Amazon prefers that over cheap land next to a bayou that is basically a river at that point, with a killer skyline view and a blank canvas of a neighborhood that they can shape however they want, I'll eat my hat.

 

[H-Town Man]

Another thing which hasn't been sufficiently addressed: this project is basically a back office which Amazon is calling a second headquarters in order to get desperate cities to pour incentives on it. It will nominally be called a headquarters, but it is a back office. Great article in the Puget Sound Business Journal this week on how they have built their empire by milking struggling cities across America for incentives based on dreamy promises. It's what they do.

 

[samagon]

16 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Previously there was a company with highly skilled, high wage earners in that area, yet the area failed to grow. The issue is not that the area failed to grow as if a 50k employee employer resided there, but instead the area failed to grow at all. 5k employees is still a lot of employees, but you seem to be discounting it. Bottom line is that area is a dump. If it were truly a diamond in the rough, another company would have swallowed it up already. The market has spoken, it's just a matter if you are willing to listen or ignore the market. 

 

Have you ever tried to get a loan from a bank for a restaurant?

 

You go in with your business plan that includes a demographic study that in addition to some suburban housing has 5,000 geographically relevant potential customers and a bank will tell you "we will not give you the $300,000 loan to build out your restaurant concept across the street from this business site".

 

You go in with your business plan that includes a demographic study that in addition to some suburban housing has 50,000 geographically relevant potential customers and a bank will ask "are you sure you only want $300,000 loan to build out your restaurant concept across the street from this business site".

[JJxvi]

What's with this weird idea that this site area would have developed while KBR was there if it was going to be able to develop?  This area WAS developed.  85% of the 150 acres of area were industrial facilities related to KBR.  There is a huge difference in desirability of developing big commercial, office, residential development right next to a vast 150 acre industrial facility vs new development on a recently cleared 150 acre piece of land.  Also the idea that there hasn't been redevelopment in the area already happening is false.  New townhouses have been appearing north of the site for a couple decades and in addition to the KBR site there is another cleared 35 acre industrial site which was purchased by Frank Liu and I imagine he's intending redevelop it...

[HOUTEX]

What a dump...

 

Source: http://eastriverhtx.com/