Why does everyone keep talking about toll roads like it's a positive thing?

[VinnyVincent]

Well, in order to even start considering options I think we need to take the toll option off the table. It's too easy for the people running the show to use that as a solution and half of them are probably getting a kickback for pushing toll roads, so why not right? It's not skin off their back since most politicians are pretty well off....they like having a road with outrageous tolls so they don't have to share with the rest of us peasants.

 

Something I keep mentioning is at least they could maybe sell the bonds off in smaller chunks to individuals like myself. Plenty of private individuals are interested in investing one's or ten's of thousands, but not hundreds of thousands or millions all in one lump sum.

While I may not have been around prior to 1983, I have driven from I10 to 290 quite frequently and have taken eldridge pkwy, hwy6 and fry road as an alternative. It's really not much slower than BW8 is during high traffic times, when people are paying 1.75 every few miles to STILL sit in traffic.

Oh yeah the road was engineered with traffic! you know that right? The thing was designed to have you eventually be sitting in traffic while paying toll. It's a way to generate money, not make you life easy.

Maybe you had a relief for a while(those were the years when someone mentioned that "traffic was less than projected") but keep in mind BW8 as it exists today with stop and go traffic along with all the ADDITIONAL traffic it has attracted to the area was DESIGNED that way. The people who engineered the road actually engineered it intentionally to make traffic worse on the surrounding roads. Think about that for a moment...

 

[Ross]

Those roads you mention? Back before BW8, they were either non-existent of were very narrow and very crowded. To get from I-10 to 59 before the Beltway meant you pretty much had to take Gessner, as the other North/South roads didn't have capacity, or didn't go all the way through. Taking Gessner wasn't fun, as it took up to an hour.

 

Selling bonds in small amounts is inefficient and costs more. Bonds have underwriters who buy the entire amount of the bond and then sell them off to smaller investors. This maximizes the amount the bond seller gets, while making the bonds available to anyone who wants to invest.In addition, entities like HCTRA have no expertise in actually delivering bonds to investors, especially since they are all in book form today, with no certificates or paper coupons to clip. That means an electronic agent is requried, which is osmehting the issuer pays for, rather than reinventing the wheel.

 

The main point, which you are ignoring yet again is that without tolls, those roads do not get built. There is no money for those roads without tools. And it is foolish to claim that the toll roads are designed to make traffic worse.

[IronTiger]

54 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

Well, in order to even start considering options I think we need to take the toll option off the table. It's too easy for the people running the show to use that as a solution and half of them are probably getting a kickback for pushing toll roads, so why not right? It's not skin off their back since most politicians are pretty well off....they like having a road with outrageous tolls so they don't have to share with the rest of us peasants.

 

Something I keep mentioning is at least they could maybe sell the bonds off in smaller chunks to individuals like myself. Plenty of private individuals are interested in investing one's or ten's of thousands, but not hundreds of thousands or millions all in one lump sum.

While I may not have been around prior to 1983, I have driven from I10 to 290 quite frequently and have taken eldridge pkwy, hwy6 and fry road as an alternative. It's really not much slower than BW8 is during high traffic times, when people are paying 1.75 every few miles to STILL sit in traffic.

Oh yeah the road was engineered with traffic! you know that right? The thing was designed to have you eventually be sitting in traffic while paying toll. It's a way to generate money, not make you life easy.

Maybe you had a relief for a while(those were the years when someone mentioned that "traffic was less than projected") but keep in mind BW8 as it exists today with stop and go traffic along with all the ADDITIONAL traffic it has attracted to the area was DESIGNED that way. The people who engineered the road actually engineered it intentionally to make traffic worse on the surrounding roads. Think about that for a moment...

 

 

Again with the whole "kickbacks" theory and "designed to be congested", etc.

 

If it was "designed to be congested", then it would've been built like the Hardy Toll Road (and no, before you answer--it was built that way because they didn't have a lot of space to work with): a narrow road with few lanes. The southern part was underbuilt due to it just not having a lot of traffic at the time. It's the same reason why the northeast segment took so long to get ready, and even now, traffic on there is quite light compared to the rest of the Beltway.

 

Furthermore, your "designed surface streets to take the traffic" is hogwash. One of those roads that you mentioned, Fry Road, didn't even connect I-10 to 290 until around 2005--many years after the Beltway was built. Secondly, if you were that dead-set against paying tolls, consider actually taking the frontage road for the Beltway, as it is free and well-maintained (concrete in sound condition, no trash)—which blows a hole in your "no tolls, no maintenance" theory.

[DNAguy]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 7:56 PM, VinnyVincent said:

Not in the mainlanes, but HCTRA will be taking control of the center HOT/HOV lane from metro once the expansion project is complete. They're also widening the lane and adding a shoulder.(apparently for emergencies but we all know the real purpose is to post constables there to enforce tolls) It should be similar to the managed lanes on I 10.

 

point is they get their greazy crooked little hands on everything they possibly can in our county and turn it into a beauracracy which o can no longer stand idly by and watch. It's sickening.

 

This is incorrect.

 

HCTRA has a financial agreement with TxDOT that they receive a portion of the toll revenue from 290.

 

Originally HCTRA agreed to contribute ~ $400 mill to the 290 project to speed up its competition. For this $400 mill, HCTRA would own and operate 3 bi-directional managed lanes (HOT/HOV) with 100% of the maintenance cost being the responsibility of HCTRA and 100% of the revenue going to HCTRA.

 

However, the state's financial situation changed after the agreement was reached. Subsequent bond measures were passed that "freed" up $$ for TxDOT. TxDOT no longer needed the money so badly to get the project completed in the expedited timeframe. In addition, mounting issues with building / engineering a 3 reversible lane configuration led HCTRA to try and find a more tenable deal with TxDOT.

 

TxDOT and HCTRA came to agreement that:

1.) Halved HCTRA's contribution to the 290 project ($200 mil instead of $400)

2.) Reduced the managed lanes from 3 to 1

3.) Ceded control of the 290 managed lane to TxDOT and therefore shifted maintenance / upkeep to TxDOT

4.) Ensured a HCTRA a percentage of the tolled revenue (IDK what the final % was, though)

 

In addition / as part of the agreement, HCTRA also:

5.) Ceded control of the I10 managed lanes to TxDOT and therefore shifted maintenance / upkeep to TxDOT

6.) Locked in 1/3 of the I10 managed lanes revenue in perpetuity

 

So now HCTRA doesn't manage or control any tolled lanes outside of the southern tolled section of 249, the northern part of the Fort bend tollway, and most of the Westpark tollway. And of course the entire Sam Houston and the Hardy tollroads.

 

I don't think the facts support your representation of HCTRA as being a malignant force or the tollroad offshoot of SPECTRE

 

 

 

[VinnyVincent]

On 12/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, DNAguy said:

 

This is incorrect.

 

HCTRA has a financial agreement with TxDOT that they receive a portion of the toll revenue from 290.

 

Originally HCTRA agreed to contribute ~ $400 mill to the 290 project to speed up its competition. For this $400 mill, HCTRA would own and operate 3 bi-directional managed lanes (HOT/HOV) with 100% of the maintenance cost being the responsibility of HCTRA and 100% of the revenue going to HCTRA.

 

However, the state's financial situation changed after the agreement was reached. Subsequent bond measures were passed that "freed" up $$ for TxDOT. TxDOT no longer needed the money so badly to get the project completed in the expedited timeframe. In addition, mounting issues with building / engineering a 3 reversible lane configuration led HCTRA to try and find a more tenable deal with TxDOT.

 

TxDOT and HCTRA came to agreement that:

1.) Halved HCTRA's contribution to the 290 project ($200 mil instead of $400)

2.) Reduced the managed lanes from 3 to 1

3.) Ceded control of the 290 managed lane to TxDOT and therefore shifted maintenance / upkeep to TxDOT

4.) Ensured a HCTRA a percentage of the tolled revenue (IDK what the final % was, though)

 

In addition / as part of the agreement, HCTRA also:

5.) Ceded control of the I10 managed lanes to TxDOT and therefore shifted maintenance / upkeep to TxDOT

6.) Locked in 1/3 of the I10 managed lanes revenue in perpetuity

 

So now HCTRA doesn't manage or control any tolled lanes outside of the southern tolled section of 249, the northern part of the Fort bend tollway, and most of the Westpark tollway. And of course the entire Sam Houston and the Hardy tollroads.

 

I don't think the facts support your representation of HCTRA as being a malignant force or the tollroad offshoot of SPECTRE

 

 

 

I'd like to know where you are getting your info from because it seems questionable at best.

Okay so first the story is that "WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE THAT 400 million otherwise we can't fund the project! We just need that 400 million otherwise we won't be able to expand the road and wait for it...add in three toll road lanes!!!"

 

So wait is the 400 million to build toll lanes, or to expedite the expansion? because I don't think it's for both...

 

Okay so now it's deemed that TxDot has all the money and doesn't really need to ad the toll lanes so now it's time to renegotiate(why is the government negotiating with themselves to begin with?)

 

So the renegotiated  deal is 200 million and they retain control of one lane??(BTW my info was not false as you stated, just out dated)

 

How about they stick their 200 million up their ass and metro retains control of the lane and the profit...perhaps we wait a bit longer for completion but why get them involved? What's wrong with that plan?

Why does TxDot have to negotiate with them like they are competing companies or something??? It's freaking ridiculous the way the whole thing sounds...

[VinnyVincent]

5 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

.

/

[IronTiger]

18 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

I'd like to know where you are getting your info from because it seems questionable at best.

Okay so first the story is that "WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE THAT 400 million otherwise we can't fund the project! We just need that 400 million otherwise we won't be able to expand the road and wait for it...add in three toll road lanes!!!"

 

So wait is the 400 million to build toll lanes, or to expedite the expansion? because I don't think it's for both...

 

Okay so now it's deemed that TxDot has all the money and doesn't really need to ad the toll lanes so now it's time to renegotiate(why is the government negotiating with themselves to begin with?)

 

So the renegotiated  deal is 200 million and they retain control of one lane??(BTW my info was not false as you stated, just out dated)

 

How about they stick their 200 million up their ass and metro retains control of the lane and the profit...perhaps we wait a bit longer for completion but why get them involved? What's wrong with that plan?

Why does TxDot have to negotiate with them like they are competing companies or something??? It's freaking ridiculous the way the whole thing sounds...

The HOT lanes (which are not necessarily "toll lanes", by carpooling you can do it for free...I know a few times we've taken family vacations through Houston and utilized the lane). The single lane set-up is dangerous and often slow (if someone stalls, then everyone's SOL), but they couldn't widen the center HOT lane without completely rebuilding the five stack.

[VinnyVincent]

On 12/28/2016 at 9:48 AM, IronTiger said:

The HOT lanes (which are not necessarily "toll lanes", by carpooling you can do it for free...I know a few times we've taken family vacations through Houston and utilized the lane). The single lane set-up is dangerous and often slow (if someone stalls, then everyone's SOL), but they couldn't widen the center HOT lane without completely rebuilding the five stack.

"not necessarily toll lanes"???

Dude get real. I commute on 290 for it's entire congested section on a daily basis and I can tell you the you are way off on that brother. Let me break it down for you; read closely since you have now made it known that you don't even live in Houston but somehow know what's best for our local transportation...

The single lane that it currently has is under-used during HOV only hours as it is.

TO suggest that it "needed" two MORE lanes is totally absurd. There simply aren't that many people driving multi passenger vehicles during congested hours. It's about revenue plain and simple.

THat's ALL and HOT lane is folks...it's a GLORIFIED TOLL ROAD

 

 

Since you don't even live here you probably don't know the people who legitimately use the HOV have pushed back more than once when the HOT hours were being extended far into rush hour and causing the HOV drivers to have to sit in traffic caused by people paying the HOT toll. That should clue you in right there. The lane started as strictly HOV and motorcycles, then they saw an opportunity to make some money so made it an HOT, then they started expanding the hours to effectively make the lane a glorified toll road.

Further more look at the I-10 lanes which are managed by HCTRA. They don't allow motorcycles on for free. Why is it that metro allows motorcycles on for free on the 290 HOT, but HCTRA charges motorcycles like cars on the I-10 lanes?....guess they don't care if motorcyclists die is the way I see it. They'd rather make that five dollars each way than save someone life. Can you believe that?

 

 

 

As it stands, they are only expanding the main lanes by one lane in each direction. Adding two more HOT lanes would have effectively troubled the expansion efforts, correct?... why we they only contributing 400 million if the proposed effort was doubling the amount of development? Gee something is funny there. Wonder what the real reason they backed out was lol!

[SkylineView]

This is my favorite thread on Haif.

 

Bar none.

[kylejack]

Toll roads are good. That way I don't have to pay for roads I don't use. The people who actually use those roads can pay for them. 

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

"not necessarily toll lanes"???

Dude get real. I commute on 290 for it's entire congested section on a daily basis and I can tell you the you are way off on that brother. Let me break it down for you; read closely since you have now made it known that you don't even live in Houston but somehow know what's best for our local transportation...

The single lane that it currently has is under-used during HOV only hours as it is.

TO suggest that it "needed" two MORE lanes is totally absurd. There simply aren't that many people driving multi passenger vehicles during congested hours. It's about revenue plain and simple.

THat's ALL and HOT lane is folks...it's a GLORIFIED TOLL ROAD

 

 

Since you don't even live here you probably don't know the people who legitimately use the HOV have pushed back more than once when the HOT hours were being extended far into rush hour and causing the HOV drivers to have to sit in traffic caused by people paying the HOT toll. That should clue you in right there. The lane started as strictly HOV and motorcycles, then they saw an opportunity to make some money so made it an HOT, then they started expanding the hours to effectively make the lane a glorified toll road.

Further more look at the I-10 lanes which are managed by HCTRA. They don't allow motorcycles on for free. Why is it that metro allows motorcycles on for free on the 290 HOT, but HCTRA charges motorcycles like cars on the I-10 lanes?....guess they don't care if motorcyclists die is the way I see it. They'd rather make that five dollars each way than save someone life. Can you believe that?

 

 

 

As it stands, they are only expanding the main lanes by one lane in each direction. Adding two more HOT lanes would have effectively troubled the expansion efforts, correct?... why we they only contributing 400 million if the proposed effort was doubling the amount of development? Gee something is funny there. Wonder what the real reason they backed out was lol!

 

Only expanding the main lanes by one lane in each direction?  Wrong.

 

Here is information from HCTRA's website regarding motorcycles on the Katy Managed Lanes:

MOTORCYCLES  Quick toll guide:
•	Free during HOV hours: Monday through Friday, 5 am – 11 am and 2 pm – 8 pm, eastbound and westbound.
•	Be sure to pass through the tolling plaza in the HOV lane on the left.
•	No registration is currently required.
•	Subject to tolls at all other times, and on all other Harris County toll roads.
•	EZ TAG or TxTag required to ride the managed lanes during non-HOV hours
•	Tolls during non-HOV hours, including weekends: $0.30 - $0.40 per tolling plaza.

 

Every one of your posts is riddled with misinformation and lies  Are you really that ignorant or are you that dishonest? Either way, please stop.

[VinnyVincent]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Only expanding the main lanes by one lane in each direction?  Wrong.

 

Here is information from HCTRA's website regarding motorcycles on the Katy Managed Lanes:

MOTORCYCLES  Quick toll guide:
•	Free during HOV hours: Monday through Friday, 5 am – 11 am and 2 pm – 8 pm, eastbound and westbound.
•	Be sure to pass through the tolling plaza in the HOV lane on the left.
•	No registration is currently required.
•	Subject to tolls at all other times, and on all other Harris County toll roads.
•	EZ TAG or TxTag required to ride the managed lanes during non-HOV hours
•	Tolls during non-HOV hours, including weekends: $0.30 - $0.40 per tolling plaza.

 

Every one of your posts is riddled with misinformation and lies  Are you really that ignorant or are you that dishonest? Either way, please stop.

Dude...read the information you just posted lol.

It says "subject to tolls at other times". Meaning "not free".

THat's not the case on the 290 HOV, it is always free.

Trust me I would know, I commuted on a MC for years.

 

Last I checked they were only expanding 290 one lane in each direction. Perhaps that info is outdated now since the whole thing has been a total train wreck and keeps changing as time goes by(likely due to HCTRA throwing a monkey wrench into the whole thing when they tried to scam us to begin with)

 

So I really don't think it's fair to call me ignorant/dishonest when you didn't even read the HCTRA info you posted and if you are so aware of whats going on with the 290 project like you portray yourself to be, you would know good and well that it had been planned as a one lane expansion in each direction for quite some time.

 

You sure you're from Houston or are yet another person who isn't even from here, who "rode on the HOV one time when traveling" and is getting the rest of their info from heresy and google?

[Houston19514]

7 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

Dude...read the information you just posted lol.

It says "subject to tolls at other times". Meaning "not free".

THat's not the case on the 290 HOV, it is always free.

Trust me I would know, I commuted on a MC for years.

 

Last I checked they were only expanding 290 one lane in each direction. Perhaps that info is outdated now since the whole thing has been a total train wreck and keeps changing as time goes by(likely due to HCTRA throwing a monkey wrench into the whole thing when they tried to scam us to begin with)

 

So I really don't think it's fair to call me ignorant/dishonest when you didn't even read the HCTRA info you posted and if you are so aware of whats going on with the 290 project like you portray yourself to be, you would know good and well that it had been planned as a one lane expansion in each direction for quite some time.

 

You sure you're from Houston or are yet another person who isn't even from here, who "rode on the HOV one time when traveling" and is getting the rest of their info from heresy and google?

 

I did read it.  Contrary to what you told us, motorcycles get free HOV privileges on the Katy managed lanes just as they do on Metro's HOV lanes.  They also get the bonus (as do other motorists) of being able to use the lanes in non-HOV times for a charge, something that is not possible for any price on Metro's HOV lanes.

 

I believe you when you now tell us you don't know how many lanes are being added to 290 (it's more than 1).  You've demonstrated in pretty much every post in this thread that you don't know what you are talking about, but are perfectly happy just making it up as you go along.

[IronTiger]

8 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

"not necessarily toll lanes"???

Dude get real. I commute on 290 for it's entire congested section on a daily basis and I can tell you the you are way off on that brother. Let me break it down for you; read closely since you have now made it known that you don't even live in Houston but somehow know what's best for our local transportation...

The single lane that it currently has is under-used during HOV only hours as it is.

TO suggest that it "needed" two MORE lanes is totally absurd. There simply aren't that many people driving multi passenger vehicles during congested hours. It's about revenue plain and simple.

THat's ALL and HOT lane is folks...it's a GLORIFIED TOLL ROAD

 

 

Since you don't even live here you probably don't know the people who legitimately use the HOV have pushed back more than once when the HOT hours were being extended far into rush hour and causing the HOV drivers to have to sit in traffic caused by people paying the HOT toll. That should clue you in right there. The lane started as strictly HOV and motorcycles, then they saw an opportunity to make some money so made it an HOT, then they started expanding the hours to effectively make the lane a glorified toll road.

Further more look at the I-10 lanes which are managed by HCTRA. They don't allow motorcycles on for free. Why is it that metro allows motorcycles on for free on the 290 HOT, but HCTRA charges motorcycles like cars on the I-10 lanes?....guess they don't care if motorcyclists die is the way I see it. They'd rather make that five dollars each way than save someone life. Can you believe that?

 

 

 

As it stands, they are only expanding the main lanes by one lane in each direction. Adding two more HOT lanes would have effectively troubled the expansion efforts, correct?... why we they only contributing 400 million if the proposed effort was doubling the amount of development? Gee something is funny there. Wonder what the real reason they backed out was lol!

 

Wrong. I lived in Houston for three months, and have probably racked up more mileage on 290 than any other intercity highway, driving my own car. The lane gets jammed because it is one lane, so if someone is driving slower than the rest of traffic, gets stalled, or yields to a bus turning onto the lane, it mucks up traffic, irrelevant of HOT vs. HOV drivers.

 

And while I don't live in Houston anymore, yes, that is a fact, I don't see how my opinions are any less valid than a toll road conspiracy theorist.

[skwatra]

I was hoping I would log in to HAIF in 2017 and this thread wouldn't be active...

[VinnyVincent]

On 1/2/2017 at 4:02 PM, Houston19514 said:

 

I did read it.  Contrary to what you told us, motorcycles get free HOV privileges on the Katy managed lanes just as they do on Metro's HOV lanes.  They also get the bonus (as do other motorists) of being able to use the lanes in non-HOV times for a charge, something that is not possible for any price on Metro's HOV lanes.

 

I believe you when you now tell us you don't know how many lanes are being added to 290 (it's more than 1).  You've demonstrated in pretty much every post in this thread that you don't know what you are talking about, but are perfectly happy just making it up as you go along.

 

 

You're the one talking out of your ass here. I commuted on 290 DURING the non HOV hours, in the HOT lane, for free.

Personally did it on a daily basis for work...so not only is it an option to ride the HOT hours with metro, but metro doesn't give you the "bonus" of having to pay tolls like HCTRA does in I-10.

You do realize that using the lanes during HOT hours "FOR A FEE" does not mean it's free right? I sure hope so...

[VinnyVincent]

On 1/2/2017 at 6:37 PM, IronTiger said:

 

Wrong. I lived in Houston for three months, and have probably racked up more mileage on 290 than any other intercity highway, driving my own car. The lane gets jammed because it is one lane, so if someone is driving slower than the rest of traffic, gets stalled, or yields to a bus turning onto the lane, it mucks up traffic, irrelevant of HOT vs. HOV drivers.

 

And while I don't live in Houston anymore, yes, that is a fact, I don't see how my opinions are any less valid than a toll road conspiracy theorist.

Three months? lol I guess that means you're an expert.

Contrary to you I have been commuting the stretch from barker cypress to 610 daily, during prime traffic hoursfor almost ten years now.its clogged up because metro opened the lanes up to use as an HOT lane. Period. The lane does not get backed up during HOV hours because hardly anyone carpools during their commute/rush hour.

In other words it's clogged up because they decided to open it up as a toll lane. If they used the lane as as designed(an HOV lane not a toll road) one lane would be plenty. Instead of gee, I dunno adding additional main lanes, they decided to plan on adding more toll lanes.

[IronTiger]

24 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

Three months? lol I guess that means you're an expert.

Contrary to you I have been commuting the stretch from barker cypress to 610 daily, during prime traffic hoursfor almost ten years now.its clogged up because metro opened the lanes up to use as an HOT lane. Period. The lane does not get backed up during HOV hours because hardly anyone carpools during their commute/rush hour.

In other words it's clogged up because they decided to open it up as a toll lane. If they used the lane as as designed(an HOV lane not a toll road) one lane would be plenty. Instead of gee, I dunno adding additional main lanes, they decided to plan on adding more toll lanes.

 

"Hardly anyone carpools during their commute/rush hour"? Gee, I guess when it's 7:00 and traffic is backed up, the 3+ only HOV lane is totally empty, isn't it? Show of hands for those who actually commute that way and think that's BS, right?

 

I just checked Google's traffic site for the 290 HOT lane at 10:40 central time. All green, except for a little orange around the 290/610 intersection...and this is consistent with what I've observed in reality. I'm not sure where you get this "No congestion during peak hours but YUUUUGE congestion otherwise" talk.

 

A little research shows that the 2+ carpooling pre-2000 had severe congestion problems, so much so that 3+ had to be used ([link]) in peak hours and the extra capacity allowed HOT lanes to be used in the first place, so this "No congestion until HOT lanes and BAM! congestion" thing happened. And remember, it's only one lane, so if someone stalls out, then the traffic is going to grind to a halt no matter how many toll or HOV users there are.

[VinnyVincent]

38 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

 

"Hardly anyone carpools during their commute/rush hour"? Gee, I guess when it's 7:00 and traffic is backed up, the 3+ only HOV lane is totally empty, isn't it? Show of hands for those who actually commute that way and think that's BS, right?

 

I just checked Google's traffic site for the 290 HOT lane at 10:40 central time. All green, except for a little orange around the 290/610 intersection...and this is consistent with what I've observed in reality. I'm not sure where you get this "No congestion during peak hours but YUUUUGE congestion otherwise" talk.

 

A little research shows that the 2+ carpooling pre-2000 had severe congestion problems, so much so that 3+ had to be used ([link]) in peak hours and the extra capacity allowed HOT lanes to be used in the first place, so this "No congestion until HOT lanes and BAM! congestion" thing happened. And remember, it's only one lane, so if someone stalls out, then the traffic is going to grind to a halt no matter how many toll or HOV users there are.

I've lived off 290 back when it was only an HOV lane with not HOT option.

It was never backed up until they made it an HOT lane. Period. End of story.

 

I ride my motorcycle on the HOV lane during the time when it gets switched from HOT to HOV only. Sometimes I am there early and the thing is backed up all the way out of the park and ride station...show up a little late when it's HOV only and I ride right through without even slowing down.

 

I'm speaking from real world experience here. You're somebody living out of state using google trying to tell me you know  the road I commute on daily better than I do...

 

Anyways try to read between the lines a little instead of being a total sheeple type. Read what you just said "switching to 3+ allowed the lanes to be used as HOT in the first place". Okay so traffic was too bad to allow single riders to pay toll so what do they do? Change the carpooling requirements so that virtually no one can use the car pool lane to allow room for single riders to pay toll...yeah that makes a lot of sense right? Maybe if you're the one collecting tolls it does...

[VinnyVincent]

7 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

 

 

[VinnyVincent]

49 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

 

"Hardly anyone carpools during their commute/rush hour"? Gee, I guess when it's 7:00 and traffic is backed up, the 3+ only HOV lane is totally empty, isn't it? Show of hands for those who actually commute that way and think that's BS, right?

 

I just checked Google's traffic site for the 290 HOT lane at 10:40 central time. All green, except for a little orange around the 290/610 intersection...and this is consistent with what I've observed in reality. I'm not sure where you get this "No congestion during peak hours but YUUUUGE congestion otherwise" talk.

 

A little research shows that the 2+ carpooling pre-2000 had severe congestion problems, so much so that 3+ had to be used ([link]) in peak hours and the extra capacity allowed HOT lanes to be used in the first place, so this "No congestion until HOT lanes and BAM! congestion" thing happened. And remember, it's only one lane, so if someone stalls out, then the traffic is going to grind to a halt no matter how many toll or HOV users there are.

Did you even read that link you posted? The "congestion" was in the Katy HOV lanes, not 290. They simply forced parts of the I-10 legislation onto the 290 lane which is the extent of 290 being mentioned in that article lol...

 

Why are you trying to debunk this so bad? I'm telling you we are being pissed on and told it's raining.

That freaking lane was NEVER congested until they made it HOT. Some .gov site mentions a different road nearby being congested and right away you think it applies to 290 and they have no reason to use some phony excuse to charge you extra taxes AKA tolls? Lol...I guess I should just give it up. Apparently everyone likes getting the shaft by their local government while they pretend they are being taken care of. WHat a joke.

[ADCS]

1 hour ago, VinnyVincent said:

Three months? lol I guess that means you're an expert.

Contrary to you I have been commuting the stretch from barker cypress to 610 daily, during prime traffic hoursfor almost ten years now.its clogged up because metro opened the lanes up to use as an HOT lane. Period. The lane does not get backed up during HOV hours because hardly anyone carpools during their commute/rush hour.

In other words it's clogged up because they decided to open it up as a toll lane. If they used the lane as as designed(an HOV lane not a toll road) one lane would be plenty. Instead of gee, I dunno adding additional main lanes, they decided to plan on adding more toll lanes.

 

Part of the problem of adding HOV exclusive express lanes is that they're severely underutilized relative to construction cost.

[IronTiger]

 

22 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

Did you even read that link you posted? The "congestion" was in the Katy HOV lanes, not 290. They simply forced parts of the I-10 legislation onto the 290 lane which is the extent of 290 being mentioned in that article lol...

 

Why are you trying to debunk this so bad? I'm telling you we are being pissed on and told it's raining.

That freaking lane was NEVER congested until they made it HOT. Some .gov site mentions a different road nearby being congested and right away you think it applies to 290 and they have no reason to use some phony excuse to charge you extra taxes AKA tolls? Lol...I guess I should just give it up. Apparently everyone likes getting the shaft by their local government while they pretend they are being taken care of. WHat a joke.

The I-10 lanes weren't designed the same way the 290 ones were, they were funded differently, and after the I-10 rebuild, it was always designed to be a toll road with HOV benefits...and in my times driving on I-10 in peak and non-peak hours from roughly Gessner to 610, I never saw this off-peak congestion you refer to, and certainly it was always less congested than the main lanes.

 

And indeed, looking at Houston Transtar's map for Houston...all green in the center lanes for Katy at 12:10 pm.

 

Since it seems you clearly aren't interested in the facts and accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being an HCTRA plant, what's your point?

[VinnyVincent]

41 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

 

The I-10 lanes weren't designed the same way the 290 ones were, they were funded differently, and after the I-10 rebuild, it was always designed to be a toll road with HOV benefits...and in my times driving on I-10 in peak and non-peak hours from roughly Gessner to 610, I never saw this off-peak congestion you refer to, and certainly it was always less congested than the main lanes.

 

And indeed, looking at Houston Transtar's map for Houston...all green in the center lanes for Katy at 12:10 pm.

 

Since it seems you clearly aren't interested in the facts and accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being an HCTRA plant, what's your point?

I think you might be missing the part where I was referring to the time frame CLOSE to HOV only hours. AKA heavy traffic hours where there is stop and go trffic on main lanes, yet the HOV is open to single riders paying toll(HOT)

 

Of course there's no traffic at 12P.M. in a lane you have to pay toll in(don't be silly) Which brings me to my whole point about motorcycles; The whole reason they are allowed on the HOV is a state thing that has to do with safety. However, rush hour is not the time when a motorcyclists life is in danger the most. That would be when traffic is heavy yet flowing at full speed...precisely the time when the kind folks at HCTRA are making cyclists pay a toll. Why do they do that you ask? Because during "HOT" hours it is legally a toll lane not an HOV, so no more state requirement to protect motorcyclists safety...thanks a lot for caring HCTRA

 

at any rate, I wasn't referring to that time frame when I mentioned HOT congestion disrupting HOV users. HOV switches to HOT only at 4:30p.m. now(recently pushed back from 5p.m. due to complaints from HOV users sitting in HOT traffic)

Try showing up at 4:10 and then show up at 4:45. You'll be waiting in line all the way back to I-10 at 4:10 VS driving right thru at 4:45 during HOV only hours. 

Things change fast in our city bro. You lived here for three months and then moved however long ago. Sorry bro but you likely know next to nothing about commuting in houston. I'm not exactly sure why you are participating in this discussion TBH when you have no real world experience in the matter.

[IronTiger]

54 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

I think you might be missing the part where I was referring to the time frame CLOSE to HOV only hours. AKA heavy traffic hours where there is stop and go trffic on main lanes, yet the HOV is open to single riders paying toll(HOT)

 

Of course there's no traffic at 12P.M. in a lane you have to pay toll in(don't be silly) Which brings me to my whole point about motorcycles; The whole reason they are allowed on the HOV is a state thing that has to do with safety. However, rush hour is not the time when a motorcyclists life is in danger the most. That would be when traffic is heavy yet flowing at full speed...precisely the time when the kind folks at HCTRA are making cyclists pay a toll. Why do they do that you ask? Because during "HOT" hours it is legally a toll lane not an HOV, so no more state requirement to protect motorcyclists safety...thanks a lot for caring HCTRA

 

at any rate, I wasn't referring to that time frame when I mentioned HOT congestion disrupting HOV users. HOV switches to HOT only at 4:30p.m. now(recently pushed back from 5p.m. due to complaints from HOV users sitting in HOT traffic)

Try showing up at 4:10 and then show up at 4:45. You'll be waiting in line all the way back to I-10 at 4:10 VS driving right thru at 4:45 during HOV only hours. 

Things change fast in our city bro. You lived here for three months and then moved however long ago. Sorry bro but you likely know next to nothing about commuting in houston. I'm not exactly sure why you are participating in this discussion TBH when you have no real world experience in the matter.

 

Less than a year ago, taking I-10 in different parts of the day since my part time job was inconsistent in that department. And no, I still live in the state. And also I should point out how quickly you went from "Well, outside the HOV-only hours, the road is ALWAYS jammed," (the exact quote was "its clogged up because metro opened the lanes up to use as an HOT lane") to "No, of course no one is going to clog up the toll lanes in the middle of the day, don't be ridiculous." But that's not my point, if we're talking the Katy Freeway lanes, the original pre-HOT lanes were part of the old Katy Freeway, with the old single lane like the Northwest Freeway...built in the median. With the Katy Freeway rebuild, the new "Katy Tollway" was always open to HOT traffic as per the PDF linked above. Trying to compare traffic counts between the old Katy Freeway HOV and the current Katy Tollway is going to be very different. The only other major change is price hikes for single-occupant users. Not that I expect any of this to change your mind, of course--your disregard of it and accusations of me being part of the Tolluminati somehow gives me the impression of you'll refuse to believe no matter what. ("A .gov page? Remember, they claimed that we actually landed on the Moon in 1969. No way I'd believe ANYTHING from them.")

 

And speaking of wild accusations, your "HCTRA doesn't care about motorcyclists" argument is crazy as well, because driving in heavy traffic at full speed often happens regardless of any toll roads. Motorcycling is inherently dangerous because you're less visible to other drivers and don't have the benefit of being surrounded by an exterior designed to crush in an accident instead of you (not to mention seatbelts and airbags), whereas motorcyclists just have a helmet and the clothes on their back, and I'm going to take the benefit of the doubt and assume that you do wear a helmet and aren't one of those guys that weave between lanes at higher speeds than vehicular (car) traffic. There is nothing HCTRA or TxDOT can do that will make it significantly safer for you short of a strictly enforced speed limit for anything with a motor.

 

[VinnyVincent]

9 hours ago, IronTiger said:

And speaking of wild accusations, your "HCTRA doesn't care about motorcyclists" argument is crazy as well, because driving in heavy traffic at full speed often happens regardless of any toll roads. Motorcycling is inherently dangerous because you're less visible to other drivers and don't have the benefit of being surrounded by an exterior designed to crush in an accident instead of you (not to mention seatbelts and airbags), whereas motorcyclists just have a helmet and the clothes on their back, and I'm going to take the benefit of the doubt and assume that you do wear a helmet and aren't one of those guys that weave between lanes at higher speeds than vehicular (car) traffic. There is nothing HCTRA or TxDOT can do that will make it significantly safer for you short of a strictly enforced speed limit for anything with a motor.

 

Wrong. They can let me ride on their enclosed HOV lane which greatly reduces the risk of another car not seeing me and running into my lane, thus causing me to crash and not have the protection of airbags, seatbelt or a metal frame(thanks for pointing that out they didn't go over it in my MSF course) 

Apparently your opinion in this matter is the minority since your elected officials as well as elected officials in most states have decided to let motorcycles use the HOV lane for free in order to prevent accidents. 

Your friends over at HCTRA however decided to charge motorcyclists to the fullest extent of the law, so during the hours when it's a TOLL ROAD they charge motorcycles to use the lane, therefor most of them aren't going to pay since traffic is moving at full speed and thus are at higher risk. Thanks HCTRA.

Metro doesn't extend such courtesy and instead they let motorcycles use the lane for free any time, and especially when it actually benefits them, which is when traffic is traveling at full speed.

 

[VinnyVincent]

We can go back and forth on this but the bottom line is HCTRA and their proposal to put three "HOV" lanes in the center of 290 was nothing more than an attempt to turn 290 into a toll road. It's only an HOV lane for what 2 hours a day? The rest of the day it operates just like any other toll road.

But dang how do they get all that traffic($) they are missing during rush hour? Oh thats right they change it to a three passenger minimum and charge everyone else who does't have three passengers, which is pretty much everyone.

Call it an HOV lane to smooth it over with the sheeple(you apparently) and everyones happy. They get their toll road and you think they somehow compromised and actually care how long you sit in traffic and not anything more than how much they can extract...Why didn't I think of that?

 

[IronTiger]

8 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

We can go back and forth on this but the bottom line is HCTRA and their proposal to put three "HOV" lanes in the center of 290 was nothing more than an attempt to turn 290 into a toll road. It's only an HOV lane for what 2 hours a day? The rest of the day it operates just like any other toll road.

But dang how do they get all that traffic($) they are missing during rush hour? Oh thats right they change it to a three passenger minimum and charge everyone else who does't have three passengers, which is pretty much everyone.

Call it an HOV lane to smooth it over with the sheeple(you apparently) and everyones happy. They get their toll road and you think they somehow compromised and actually care how long you sit in traffic and not anything more than how much they can extract...Why didn't I think of that?

 

 

 

So if I have this right, you want the HOT lanes on 290 to remain single-lane so you don't have to worry about anyone cutting into your lane. Got it. A bit selfish, I suppose, but at least it kind of makes sense.

 

Since now we've resorted to the "sheeple" argument, I'd like to show you this little thing that you inspired me with the other day. I'm thinking of making it my new avatar.

 

 

[The Pragmatist]

There are two ways to reduce congestion in the HOV/HOT lanes: 1) raise HOT prices and 2) increase the passenger count required for HOV access. I don't see how you don't understand the rationale behind this, Vinny. The 290 HOV lanes are open from 5AM - 11AM inbound and 2PM - 8PM outbound. The only 3+ passenger time is 6:30AM to 8:00AM. The reason for this increase is that there were too many vehicles in the lane. It was underutilized as an HOV-exclusive lane, and it is over-utilized following a peak hour, HOV/low-cost HOT setup. So from 6:30 to 8:00 it is HOV only (3+)/no HOT, and just prior to that, it is $7 for the HOT lane with a $5 rate just after that window. However, HOV (2+) usage is still permitted at other times. These are lane-management methods, Vinny. And the 6:30-8:00 window is given to preserve timeliness of service for the bus service that the lanes were designed for.

[VinnyVincent]

5 hours ago, The Pragmatist said:

There are two ways to reduce congestion in the HOV/HOT lanes: 1) raise HOT prices and 2) increase the passenger count required for HOV access. I don't see how you don't understand the rationale behind this, Vinny. The 290 HOV lanes are open from 5AM - 11AM inbound and 2PM - 8PM outbound. The only 3+ passenger time is 6:30AM to 8:00AM. The reason for this increase is that there were too many vehicles in the lane. It was underutilized as an HOV-exclusive lane, and it is over-utilized following a peak hour, HOV/low-cost HOT setup. So from 6:30 to 8:00 it is HOV only (3+)/no HOT, and just prior to that, it is $7 for the HOT lane with a $5 rate just after that window. However, HOV (2+) usage is still permitted at other times. These are lane-management methods, Vinny. And the 6:30-8:00 window is given to preserve timeliness of service for the bus service that the lanes were designed for.

Actually we've gotten quite far off topic here. (possibly iron tigers intention with his troll antics)

 

I could make some points where it kind of isn't their intention, rather an excuse to make the road more profitable, but I'd rather go another direction...

 

I understand that all that is a method to reduce HOV lane congestion.(at least it seems that way) What I don't understand is why 290 needs 3 "HOV" lanes when I ride my motorcycle down the HOV lane between 6:30-6:50 doing anywhere from 60-80 mph depending on who is leading the pack, meanwhile traffic in the main lanes is completely stopped for miles. It literally looks like driving by a parking lot that is miles long some mornings.

After you witness that and then you read about a plan for them to expand the mainlanes by only one lane, all while adding two more "HOV" lanes that are actually just toll roads 90% of the time, it becomes quite obvious what they are trying to accomplish.