Why does everyone keep talking about toll roads like it's a positive thing?

[Ross]

The ballot language for the Hardy and Sam Houston did not mention the roads becoming free after they were paid off. That was in a brochure.

 

Again, the easy way to not pay tolls is to stay off the toll roads. There is always an alternate route.

[VinnyVincent]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Doing some research would be a good idea.  As with most everything you've posted in this thread, you don't seem to have a clue.  HCTRA does not have the right to manage the HOT lane on 290, either now or in the future.  It is now operated by Metro and as far as I know, will continue to be operated by Metro, under agreement with TxDOT.

 

(and by the way, I've looked at one of the links you've previously provided supposedly proving HCTRA's illegal/shady activities.  What a joke.)

 

Do some research and take off the tin-foil hat.

I don't have a clue? I need to do some research? I've done plenty of research. Maybe you should take your own advice:

Quote

The new change now includes an additional general purpose traffic lane in each direction between Loop 610 and the Grand Parkway, and allows TxDOT and HCTRA to maintain a reversible HOV lane on U.S. 290 when those segments are completed.

http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/cyfair/news/article/TxDOT-revises-U-S-290-expansion-plans-6480254.php

 

Also within the above article you will see that HCTRA "donated" 200 million for the project.

Since metro currently manages the lanes and it will be changing to HCTRA once the project is complete, I'm assuming that's why the "donated" 200 million. So they have the right to "manage"(AKA charge people money to ride on a public road built with tax dollars) the lane that metro current manages and has already been constructed using tax dollars.

 

Which link did you look at? There is a wealth of info regarding shady crap the HCTRA does. Here's a good one: http://money.cnn.com/interactive/pf/debt-collector/government-agencies/

Also check out the turf website because they had quite a few useful links on their site:

http://www.texasturf.org

 

 

As you can see I've done plenty of research and I don't appreciate your tin foil hat comment.

Lets have a real discussion about this here...writing me off as some uninformed idiot before you do you own due diligence isn't helping any of us grow as a society.

[VinnyVincent]

2 hours ago, Ross said:

The ballot language for the Hardy and Sam Houston did not mention the roads becoming free after they were paid off. That was in a brochure.

 

Again, the easy way to not pay tolls is to stay off the toll roads. There is always an alternate route.

Wow; are you affiliated with HCTRA somehow?

Okay so in other words they misled the public into supporting it, like I said, right? 

 

You know what would be easy? For them to have been honest about the road in the first place instead of getting people to support it under the false pretense that it would one day become free.

Why do you think it is that their brochure didn't say the truth- the road would never be free? Because that garbage would have been rejected so fast it's not even funny, that's why!

 

This is a classic BS politician/lobbyist move. "mis-speak"(lie) to the general public when the actual ballot states otherwise(yet still lies by omission considering what the literature said) 

Now here we are forty years later and they just keep moving the goal post don't they?

First the road was going to be free, then "well you don't have to use it, it's a mobility service", to "sure we got greedy and traffic is just as bad on toll roads now, but thats the only way to build new roads", to "we can't even afford to maintain the current roads without tolls", to "we're going to have to convert EXISTING roads to toll roads"

 

Where does this crap stop? When you're getting tolled the second you back out of your driveway?

You know, you don't HAVE to leave your house to go to work if you don't want to pay the toll. It's optional, right?...right?

 

Enough is enough!

 

Quote

Again, the easy way to not pay tolls is to stay off the toll roads. There is always an alternate route.

 

HA! have you TRIED to avoid using a toll road and getting around town lately? It's not easy!  Been to tomball recently? Avoiding tolls on that route is FAR from easy. 249 was bought and paid for when they converted it to a toll road and now getting around that area is a travesty. 

 

 

You'll keep saying that until they make 610 a toll road eventually, and I-10, and so on. 

It's never going to stop if you keep using that logic.

 

[VinnyVincent]

3 hours ago, cspwal said:

I don't think they are installing tollbooths on 290

Not in the mainlanes, but HCTRA will be taking control of the center HOT/HOV lane from metro once the expansion project is complete. They're also widening the lane and adding a shoulder.(apparently for emergencies but we all know the real purpose is to post constables there to enforce tolls) It should be similar to the managed lanes on I 10.

 

point is they get their greazy crooked little hands on everything they possibly can in our county and turn it into a beauracracy which o can no longer stand idly by and watch. It's sickening.

[VinnyVincent]

Why we are on the subject of the HOV/hot, who even wants that? Anyone? I think the VAST majority would rather have a reversible lane that EVERYONE can use...but there's no toll revenue in that is there?

[BigFootsSocks]

Houston's Kush epidemic strikes again

[VinnyVincent]

8 hours ago, BigFootsSocks said:

Houston's Kush epidemic strikes again

Yeah that's it. I'm on drugs for thinking it shouldn't cost 2 dollars every few miles to get to work after the state highway fund already dumps billions into our local roads.

foreign private investors aren't buying up our roads and selling them back to us with gaurenteed, county subsidized profits.

maybe we could afford some roads if we weren't having to subsidize profits for foreign investors right? Or maybe that's just the drugs talking....

 

i guess you you didn't bother looking at any of the info I posted and you don't find any or it strange that HCTRA keeps trying to buy up every possible road they can around here? That doesn't upset you at all? You'd rather start paying to use roads that are currently free? I happened with 249 and with your attitude it's going to happen a lot more.

[VinnyVincent]

On 11/10/2016 at 2:17 PM, Ross said:

If we don't use tolls, we don't get roads. It is that simple. The money has to come from somewhere , but there is no desire to raise taxes.

 

If you think HCTRA financial are dense, you haven't looked at TxDot's books.

 

You know what I think? I think that's a crock. It's all rhetoric and we don't really know until we try other alternative, but some of you seem to be too closed minded to even CONSIDER anything else other than tolls tolls tolls.

 

On 11/10/2016 at 1:15 PM, LTAWACS said:

 

 

Absolutely agree. It's refreshing to know that someone else thinks of toll roads as I do. Those who pay for toll roads have got to be somewhat mislead.

 

On 11/12/2016 at 0:03 PM, Dustin said:

Ideally, paying a toll to use a road means that road is a quicker alternative. You're paying for an easier commute. Since this basic reason for a toll road has long since been lost in the shuffle of money  mismanagement, greed and political gain, I now don't like toll roads. Haven't for a long time.

 

On 11/12/2016 at 3:52 AM, ernie5823 said:

There may have been others, but the only toll road that I can think of that turned free was the old DFW Turnpike, now Interstate 30. It took about 20 years to pay it off.

Why don't you guys speak out more? If you don't make your opinions known, then the only people who are going to be heard are these toll road shills and lobbyists.

I'm over here being portrayed as some kind of rogue kush addict or something when the truth is, my opinion on this is not all that rare...

[gmac]

You know what I think? I think you're so blinded by anger right now you can't see straight.

 

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it wrong. Roads HAVE to be paid for. If you can persuade the legislature and citizenry that we need massive tax raises to improve roads, I'm right with you. In the current climate, though, that's simply not going to happen.

[Ross]

2 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

 

You know what I think? I think that's a crock. It's all rhetoric and we don't really know until we try other alternative, but some of you seem to be too closed minded to even CONSIDER anything else other than tolls tolls tolls.

What other options? The estimated total resources for highways in 2016 is just under $11 billion see https://tti.tamu.edu/policy/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Gas-Tax-Facts-v7_FINAL-January2016.pdf    and http://www.comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2016/february/fuels.php

 

Of that total, about 20% comes from motor fuel taxes. That could increase if they quit using 25% of fuel taxes for schools, but that's not going to happen. Nor will Abbott and Patrick consider raising the tax to where it should be, as that would violate their sense that government is free, and doesn't require any taxes.  About half comes from the Feds, that's unlikely to increase, and will likely decrease to pay for Trumps proposed tax cuts (notwithstanding his comments on infrastructure investment). Tolls are an efficient way of paying for road construction and charging the users, and I don't have any real problem with them.

[VinnyVincent]

1 hour ago, Ross said:

What other options? The estimated total resources for highways in 2016 is just under $11 billion see https://tti.tamu.edu/policy/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Gas-Tax-Facts-v7_FINAL-January2016.pdf    and http://www.comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2016/february/fuels.php

 

Of that total, about 20% comes from motor fuel taxes. That could increase if they quit using 25% of fuel taxes for schools, but that's not going to happen. Nor will Abbott and Patrick consider raising the tax to where it should be, as that would violate their sense that government is free, and doesn't require any taxes.  About half comes from the Feds, that's unlikely to increase, and will likely decrease to pay for Trumps proposed tax cuts (notwithstanding his comments on infrastructure investment). Tolls are an efficient way of paying for road construction and charging the users, and I don't have any real problem with them.

 

What other options? I could think of a few, but the problem is everyone so stuck on tolls(lets face it that's the REAL EASY way out if you're a politician, but it makes the least sense for citizens.)

Heck, they aren't even willing to modify how toll roads are ran...For example I would be glad to invest some of my own money into the 288 project, and I'm sure others will...but instead guess what? It's only open to groups of private overseas investors. For some reason only they get to invest in something that has a guaranteed profit written into a contract. Why do you think that is?

 

You mention that "they aren't going to quit spending 25% on schools". Why do you think that is? Because citizens like you and me stand idly by and ALLOW them to keep adding toll roads with wreckless abandon. I think if we simply take tolls off the table as an option, what other choice would they have but to use the money for what it's supposed to be for?

Meanwhile how many kids fundraisers are you blowing money on each year? THese people just take take take. They'll take your whole paycheck and just give you enough to eat if you let them...

 

And as far as federal funding goes, it is what it is, but you do realize we are subsidizing toll roads with tax dollars right? That's not Donald Trumps fault is it? By the way are you anti-republican or just anti Trump? Because toll roads seem like a pretty republican concept to me...

 

 

In other words the whole thing stinks of corruption, greed, and politicians flat out not doing their job. 

Some of you seem to be pretty active in the local government. Why do we keep voting for these people?

 

 

 

On 11/12/2016 at 3:52 AM, ernie5823 said:

 

[Houston19514]

17 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

 

Which link did you look at? There is a wealth of info regarding shady crap the HCTRA does. Here's a good one: http://money.cnn.com/interactive/pf/debt-collector/government-agencies/

Also check out the turf website because they had quite a few useful links on their site:

http://www.texasturf.org

 

 

As you can see I've done plenty of research and I don't appreciate your tin foil hat comment.

Lets have a real discussion about this here...writing me off as some uninformed idiot before you do you own due diligence isn't helping any of us grow as a society.

 

I've taken a quick look at both links.  It seems the extent of the so-called shady crap and corruption is that HCTRA has used a debt collector to collect unpaid tolls... and a few people have complained about the debt collector's tactics. 

[VinnyVincent]

5 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

I've taken a quick look at both links.  It seems the extent of the so-called shady crap and corruption is that HCTRA has used a debt collector to collect unpaid tolls... and a few people have complained about the debt collector's tactics. 

Uh, no...you didn't read it if that's all you got. You skimmed over it.

Clearly you are biased towards the toll roads and don't want to be convinced otherwise for some reason.

 

Why are you defending these people?

 

Linebarger and HCTRA are like two peas in a pod. They send money to eachother back and forth for shady reasons and linebarger spends  LOT of money on lobbying for toll roads.

Basically if one wants to spend money on something that would raise a red flag, they have the other organization spend the money and vice versa.

[Houston19514]

1 minute ago, VinnyVincent said:

Uh, no...you didn't read it if that's all you got. You skimmed over it.

 

So share some of it with us already.  Wasn't it you who said you wanted a real discussion about this here?

[VinnyVincent]

6 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

So share some of it with us already.  Wasn't it you who said you wanted a real discussion about this here?

I have been sharing it. several of you accused me of not doing any research and accused me of saying things that weren't true...so I posted links of where I got my info from to back up the statements I have been making and now you aren't willing to look at those. It seems you would prefer to keep assuming I'm just a tin foil hat wearing kush smoker instead of taking the time to find out the facts.

 

Like I said it seems like you prefer to be blissfully ignorant to what's really going on behind closed doors.

Why? What do you owe these people? You think they are charging a reasonable amount for tolls and are using the money responsibly?

I don't get why anti-toll ideals are met with such harsh resistance.

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, VinnyVincent said:

 

What other options? I could think of a few, but the problem is everyone so stuck on tolls(lets face it that's the REAL EASY way out if you're a politician, but it makes the least sense for citizens.)

Heck, they aren't even willing to modify how toll roads are ran...For example I would be glad to invest some of my own money into the 288 project, and I'm sure others will...but instead guess what? It's only open to groups of private overseas investors. For some reason only they get to invest in something that has a guaranteed profit written into a contract. Why do you think that is?

 

 

The 288 contract was openly bid.  It was not only open to groups of private overseas investors. That is a flat-out false claim.  If you wanted to bid on it, you could have. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

I have been sharing it. several of you accused me of not doing any research and accused me of saying things that weren't true...so I posted links of where I got my info from to back up the statements I have been making and now you aren't willing to look at those either?

 

Like I said it seems like you prefer to be blissfully ignorant to what's really going on behind closed doors.

 

Would it really be so difficult to provide a summary?  Again, I thought you wanted a real discussion here.   (I also followed your earlier suggestion to Google HCTRA illegal.  In the first two pages of results, there was nothing except the complaints about toll violation collection procedures. Nothing.  If you truly have stories of nefarious activities of the Harris County Toll Road Authority, one would think you would be eager to actually share them.

 

And, by the way, you have indeed said things that are verifiably false.

[VinnyVincent]

32 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

The 288 contract was openly bid.  It was not only open to groups of private overseas investors. That is a flat-out false claim.  If you wanted to bid on it, you could have. 

Lol...are you trolling me? I think you know what I meant. No single person has billions of dollars to invest. They could have collected the money through bonds, but that would require too much effort on their part to get the money I guess...that or no one single private citizen  is paying off the people who were in charge of the bidding, the foreign investors are. You decide.

 

Was it publically announced that the bid was open? Because I didn't ever know they were thinking about expanding 288 until they had already secured funding from foreign investors.

 

You seem to have a lot of background info here. How are you affiliated?

[VinnyVincent]

Anyways Houston19514; later this afternoon I guess I'll go sift through all the info and post some quotes on here since you don't seem want to put any effort into finding the facts, unless those facts are in favor of the toll roads.

[VinnyVincent]

Something to think about...

 

Why are they auctioning off our public roads in the first place? Seems like this toll road business is quite profitable since so many people are jumping at the opportunity.

[Ross]

I am opposed to the private entities being involved, although that is somewhat lessened if the bonds the private parties iissue are non-recourse to the government.

[Houston19514]

24 minutes ago, Ross said:

I am opposed to the private entities being involved, although that is somewhat lessened if the bonds the private parties iissue are non-recourse to the government.

 

Do you know of any private toll road developments where the bonds were not non-recourse to the government?  I'm pretty sure the 288 toll lane financing is non-recourse to the government.

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

 

What other options? I could think of a few, but the problem is everyone so stuck on tolls(lets face it that's the REAL EASY way out if you're a politician, but it makes the least sense for citizens.)

Heck, they aren't even willing to modify how toll roads are ran...For example I would be glad to invest some of my own money into the 288 project, and I'm sure others will...but instead guess what? It's only open to groups of private overseas investors. For some reason only they get to invest in something that has a guaranteed profit written into a contract. Why do you think that is?

 

Where did you come up with the idea that there is a guaranteed profit written into the 288 toll development contract? 

[Houston19514]

On 11/8/2016 at 3:09 PM, VinnyVincent said:

 

You're telling me there's NO alternative?

I like to invest. I also commute on 288. Personally I don't see a need to expand 288 if you compare it to other roads around here...but at any rate, I would have been willing to invest 10,000 dollars if I got a guaranteed return on it, to expand 288 and make it a toll road. I'm a man of modest means so I am sure many others would also have been willing to invest for a guaranteed return(which is what is written into the contract for these overseas investors. If the road isn't profitable guess what? The county/state has to subsidize their profits)

 

 

 

Where did you see that the county/state has to subsidize the profits of the 288 toll developer if the road isn't profitable?

 

Here's the development agreement. Please direct us to the section(s) of the agreement that provide for this subsidization of their profits.

[Ross]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Do you know of any private toll road developments where the bonds were not non-recourse to the government?  I'm pretty sure the 288 toll lane financing is non-recourse to the government.

I am not aware of any that are not non-recourse to the government, but politicians can do stupid crap sometimes. If the bondholders are on the hook completely, and there's no way that tax dollars become a required part of the process, then I would accept private participation. I still prefer an entity like HCTRA to issue the bonds and build/run the toll road.

[IronTiger]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Where did you see that the county/state has to subsidize the profits of the 288 toll developer if the road isn't profitable?

 

Here's the development agreement. Please direct us to the section(s) of the agreement that provide for this subsidization of their profits.

I think he's referring to the Trans Texas Corridor agreement, which was only for the TTC and an extremely unpopular idea.

 

To the OP: please give up, you asked a valid question, got valid answers, but since then you've just argued at every turn and haven't endeared yourself to others with false info and conspiracy theories.

[VinnyVincent]

15 hours ago, IronTiger said:

I think he's referring to the Trans Texas Corridor agreement, which was only for the TTC and an extremely unpopular idea.

 

To the OP: please give up, you asked a valid question, got valid answers, but since then you've just argued at every turn and haven't endeared yourself to others with false info and conspiracy theories.

I was referring to SH130.

You know it's funny- there don't seem to be any details available in the news about the contract witht he 288 investors. THere's nothing available that clearly discusses the funding details. WHy is that? We only seem to get these details after the road is built and it's too late.

 

Let's see...I've posted links to back up what I'm saying, have I not? The people who I'm "arguing" with have openly refused to read those links.

They've also refused to answer questions as to why they are blindly defending the roads and whether or not they are somehow affiliated.

 

Yes I may have mis-spoke a few times, which several of you have been quick to exploit. Tht's because there is a lot of info here and some of it is not fresh on my mind. I did not realize I was on trial here...Again this is why I posted links which ironically the guys accusing me of making things up are the same ones refusing to read.

 

 

[VinnyVincent]

19 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Where did you see that the county/state has to subsidize the profits of the 288 toll developer if the road isn't profitable?

 

Here's the development agreement. Please direct us to the section(s) of the agreement that provide for this subsidization of their profits.

HA! you expect me to sift through a 200 page contract to find something when you won't even read my news articles?

Look it's like I just laid out...they've intentionally made the information obscure and hard to read. There's nothing that clearly explains in plain english, how any of the funding will work.

It's just like the "It wasn't a lie about BW8 never being free, that was fine print"- spoken like a true greasy palmed politician!

 

So I ask, since you seem to have some inside info on this project; What exactly will happen in the event the road isn't profitable?

 

Since I'm spending time compiling info so you don't need to read the article, think you could just post the section that explains what happens in the event the road isn't profitable?

Or will you just respond instead and let everyone know I lied and the contract is "only" 180 pages. 

How are you affiliated?

[VinnyVincent]

Anyways to anyone reading this that actually wants to look into the dark side of toll roads, I've found just a couple articles this morning(more to come. Don't want to present too much material at once)

 

http://www.urbanophile.com/2013/11/24/drop-in-traffic-means-rise-in-guaranteed-profits-for-private-road-investors/

 

http://www.texasturf.org/2012-06-01-03-09-30/latest-news/public-private-partnerships/1931-texas-for-sale-new-laws-sell-texas-to-highest-bidder

[VinnyVincent]

More discussion on gaurenteed profits to private investors aka "reimbursements"

 

http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9981.0

[VinnyVincent]

Just now, VinnyVincent said:

 

 

Just now, VinnyVincent said: