Gas Prices

[ricco67]

KJB434 Sez:

Chicago is experiencing the high gas prices because they don't have many if any refineries left to produce gas. The have to ship it from Houston, Louisiana and New Jersey.

Most of the extra oil that is coming into this country that can't be refined is either being stored or sold to plastics, polymers, and composites manufacturers to make things that use these materials.

Also, we people talk about reducing foreign dependance on oil, they mean to drill for our own and to search out for our own oil without going to through a cartel for it.

The price of Oil I think is mostly done on an emotional detail. As you have stated, we only have a number of refineries which are at capacity, and therefore, it wouldn't really impact the production or price of gasoline.

I do believe that refineries should go ahead and be built, and the current ones be upgraded as well and not left in their current state for mere cost savings.

Redscare sez:

If ANWR replaced foreign imports, it would be dry in just over 2 years, if it could be pumped that fast (of course, it can't).

The gov't should quit lying to us about energy independence. It won't and can't happen. We COULD, however, use less oil. The 2 two ways to do it are to drive efficient vehicles and develop more mass transit.

As was previously mentioned, it would take 10 years to get ANYTHING from Anwar even if people were teleported there with eqiupment tomorrow.

Right now the energy policy should not only look at additional sources here at home, make more effecient refineries, but to also look at ways that we can make our fuel consumption decrease by offering incentives on not only on a personal, but a corporate level as well.

Pardon the run on sentences, it's late.

Ricco

[Subdude]

Note: this incorporates posts about ANWR drilling from the Traffic & Transportation section.

[westguy]

Forget refining capacity. You're forgetting China & India, dude. Combined, they currently use less than the US, but as growing industrial powerhouses, plus their desire to copy America's suburban lifestyle, there will simply be too much demand for oil. Plus, isn't the ANWR oil slated to go to China anyway?

[bruce_oneal]

Forget refining capacity. You're forgetting China & India, dude. Combined, they currently use less than the US, but as growing industrial powerhouses, plus their desire to copy America's suburban lifestyle, there will simply be too much demand for oil. Plus, isn't the ANWR oil slated to go to China anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, it's not just us (u.s.a.) any more. and how good are we at sharing?

[kjb434]

Also, the USGS also has other oil reserves evaluated in the US that make Saudi Arabia seam like a spec. It's called Shale Oil. It's located a little deeper than typical ground accessible oil wells have been reaching. Oil companies have figured that the price per barrel of oil needs to be above $30 to make it profitable for production. Why haven't we drilled yet now that Oil is above $30? Global competitive position.

We as a country can continue to survive with this higher priced oil for many more years without real negative affects. Again, remember that gas prices are not directly linked to oil prices. When Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Russia, and the remain Middle East get to the lower end of their reserves, the US will become one of the large supplier of Oil in the world Why drill all of our out and use it when we can afford to save it for a later date. Oil companies and energy experts know ANWR is not a solution. It is just a supplemental. This will cushion US oil imports for a while.

We need to realize there is a much bigger picture here than we see in the news and from politicals. And, the environment question doesn't enter the equation because of the currently lack of evidence and lack of consensus in the scientific community on the burning of fossil fuels and there negative impacts. Localized pollution has been realized in areas of the world, but on a gobal scale we have seen problems.

Hybrid cars, trucks, planes can reduce the use of oil, but this reduction in minimal compare to the other uses of oil in this country and the rest of the developing world. Hydrogen seems promising, but the two primary sources for extracting hydrogen (oil and water) have there problems. Extraction from oil will just supplant the pollution from cars and place it in certain location. It will also require the construction of more refineries. Exctraction from water is extremely expensive and the best promises is using new nuclear reactors to perform it efficiently. We need more nuclear plants and to upgrade the existing ones to perform this task. France has research which is cooperating with some US universities in this field. Since France is dependant on nuclear power for electricity, they have some of the more modern nuclear reactors than the US for research.

[skwatra]

Forget refining capacity. You're forgetting China & India, dude. Combined, they currently use less than the US, but as growing industrial powerhouses, plus their desire to copy America's suburban lifestyle, there will simply be too much demand for oil. Plus, isn't the ANWR oil slated to go to China anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i recently went back to india after 8 years. previously all my cousins were driving civic equivalents or scooters, now some have SUVs (diesel) and they all have sedans. but they have switched all their public busses from diesel to CNG (compressed natural gas) in delhi, the pollution has actually decreased significantly, even though the number of motor vehicles now are a much higher percentage then bikes/rickshaws as it was before.

they are building suburbs and moving farther away from the city, there was an article about that in the chron a few weeks back about beijing.

"From now to 2020, world oil consumption will rise by about 60%. Transportation will be the fastest growing oil-consuming sector. By 2025, the number of cars will increase to well over 1.25 billion from approximately 700 million today. Global consumption of gasoline could double.

The two countries with the highest rate of growth in oil use are China and India, whose combined populations account for a third of humanity. In the next two decades, China's oil consumption is expected to grow at a rate of 7.5% per year and India

[RedScare]

Actually, that is incorrect. Transportation is the biggest consumer of oil in the US.

On a related note, seeing GM and Ford SUV sales plummet, and seeing the administration refuse to raise CAFE standards. GM and Ford have seen their bonds reduced to junk status. The corporate heirarchy is clearly a bunch of morons. GM has even stated that the drop in SUV sales is only temporary, and sales will return with a vengeance.

Given that the adminstration is trying to help GM and Ford, and that they are so blind, why doesn't the gov't help them by mandating higher CAFE standards? Clearly, they wouldn't do it to help the country, but don't you think they would try to help these corporate behemoths from bankrupting themselves?

[RedScare]

skwatra, I didn't mean youwere incorrect. I was responding to kjb's remark about gas reduction being minimal.

[RedScare]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8315963/

GWB: "Hey, guys. Where's Homer?"

[westguy]

I thought that refining shale was too expensive, plus considerably dirtier than refining regular oil. Houston's really going to have trouble cleaning up its air if we adopt that stuff as fuel.

[kjb434]

Shale was too expensive when oil was at $20 a barrel, now that price is near $60, shale is an option.

[Lowbrow]

I'll be very interested if I ever hear word that an american oil company is taking oil shales into consideration again. Most of the people in my feild consider it the boondoggle of the '70s. The potential hydrocarbon is there, it just needs to be pressurized and baked. Unfortunately the in situ methods are very inefficient and the extraction method is akin to strip mining and gets lots of enviro-types up in arms.

I put my money on mining offshore clathrates. Frozen natural "gas" under the sea floor. The japanese are very serious about it and I think they will suceed where they have met some failure and unfortunately some deaths trying in the past.

[RedScare]

Today's Chron...

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3240364

$5.74 a gallon for gas? I bet no one would complain about mass transit then...other than 'when is it coming out to my house?'

And, if this is such a possibilty, why is it that the current administration flatly refuses to even suggest that conservation measures, such as mass transit, CAFE standards and others, be employed...only drill more, refine more, and nuclear power?

Can anyone suggest a plausible reason?

NOTE: "Bush is an idiot" is a well-worn response. I am looking for real insight as to why this is the current policy.

[pineda]

why is it that the current administration flatly refuses to even suggest that conservation measures, such as mass transit, CAFE standards and others, be employed...only drill more, refine more, and nuclear power?

(An insight into the question of why or why not):

Senate energy bill news this week

BTW, the McCain/Leiberman amendment that addressed greenhouse gases failed 38-60. The big energy corporations said if it had passed, the economy would have collapsed...

[kjb434]

Market economics drives our energy policy. The only thing is we haven't had one in over 10 years. What Bush is try to get congress to do perform is to establish a blueprint that has to be revisited as the times change. For now drilling for more oil is not that crazy. There plenty of it out there that we have barely discovered. When the oil industry thinks it's going to be running out, you'll start seeing them doing mass research for alternatives.

Russia can potentially be the next Saudi Arabia and we are there helping them develop it. We know they have the oil and we are assisting them in drilling through the frozen tundra to get to it.

The Gulf of Mexico has hundreds (not exaggerating either) of oil wells that have been built, but oil hasn't been extracted from them. They have been capped off. We have been getting oil for cheap from elsewhere, why use our own. There are also oil rich areas off the coast of Florida and California that environmentalist have stopped from being drilled. If they realized anything, these oil wells are more beneficial in formation of coral reefs and giving habitats to marine life.

[Subdude]

So this "peak oil" business is bogus? Someone just sent me an email on it, but I don't know anything about the topic.

[RedScare]

"Peak Oil" is not bogus. But there is serious debate on when it will occur. What is not in doubt is that worldwide oil consumption is 31 Billion barrels annually and growing. That's 3 ANWRs per year.

I don't doubt that there are capped wells in the Gulf. It makes sense to drill now when it is cheaper, and hold it for later. However, the amount of oil estimated to be there is still included in the oil company and government estimates of reserves.

Supporters of Peak Oil argue that the formula works, even when you factor in advances in oil technology. Critics say we'll always find new ways to find oil. One thing is for sure...at the current increase in oil consumption of 2% per year, we will be consuming 46 Billion barrels per year in 2025...and we will have used up 750 Billion barrels of our current known supply of 1,000 to 1,200 Billion barrels.

Any way you look at it, that's a lot of new oil we need to find, and fast.

[RedScare]

With the drastic runup in gasoline prices (the Chronicle had a picture of a Shell station on Hillcroft selling $2.999 regular yesterday), it's good to know that the big boat owners are not worried.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3309543

In fact, several of the people in the article work in the oil industry, so the higher the price, the more they can afford it. Gave me warm fuzzies reading it.

[KatieDidIt]

With the drastic runup in gasoline prices (the Chronicle had a picture of a Shell station on Hillcroft selling $2.999 regular yesterday), it's good to know that the big boat owners are not worried.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3309543

In fact, several of the people in the article work in the oil industry, so the higher the price, the more they can afford it.

[KatieDidIt]

Actually, having an ENTIRE family in the oil and natural gas business, the price run ups have nothing to do with supply or big oil greed, but due to the speculation of INVESTORS and WALL STREET selling short.  My family thinks its nuts, irritating and makes no sense on a daily basis. There is plenty of supply. Heating oil supplies for the NE were reached months ago.

All those people who ran the tech stocks in 99, are after this market now. Give it time, it will bust too.

So in theory, your anger needs to be at the day trader, not at oil and gas people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But also in turn, due to enviromental restrictions, the days of 1.50 gas is gone.

[RedScare]

I agree that the hedge fund traders have introduced a frenzy to the spot oil market. I can understand gas prices jumping due to tight refinery production, but oil doesn't make near as much sense. I've said before that rising gas prices don't offend me, because it will encourage more efficient use of a finite resource, but it is disappointing that the profits from oil go to fund our enemies rather funding transportation options here at home.

The gas tax has been eroded by inflation, and with prices where they are, no politician will have the guts to increase them to fund needed infrastructure, thus the coming proliferation of toll roads.

[PureAuteur]

High gas prices could be the catalyst needed to stop the mess of suburban sprawl and start downtown revitalization.

Bingo.

I am all in favor of high gas prices. I hope they go up past 4 dollars a gallon. It will encourage individuals and organizations/businesses to think creatively and innovatively and finally boost progress towards conservation and new ideas. It's sad, but with so many stubborn people in America, it takes a hard hit of reality to get them to accept change.

I don't inherently hate suburbia, but Houston's suburbs are a disaster of planning.

[bruce_oneal]

it certainly is going to make people re-think sprawl. i for one am not amazed or impressed by houston's land mass. i think it is totally out of control. $3 regular gas is coming (probably before christmas) and this is going to have profound effects on how we move around and choose to do things that require the automobile.

strangely enough EYE still cannot get out of my car because the things i need to do (here in houston) are so spread out and public transportation just does not cut it for me ... yet.

i am modifying my drivingi habits and trying to bundle trips, but there is simply NO getting around my 3-day-a-week PT gig in the woodlands at this point.

[bigguy]

I dont believe people will change , prices and wages will just go up to level the playing field . If we switch to bio fuels it would require twice the farm land to be cultivated than is in use today . Your best options are things like tidel power and nukes . Bet the tree huggers will scream bloody murder over that. If clinton had not stopped the drilling in Alaska there might be some relief today , but what about the next day . Or we could go back to hemp oil , but big money just wont stand for that . I have to buy thier fuel but I dont ever buy anything else at the gas station .

[RedScare]

Actually, environmentalists have come to see nuclear power as a somewhat clean solution to the energy problem. There are concerns over disposal and storage, but the power generation itself has gained respect in the environmental community.

[bruce_oneal]

yeah, i think nuclear should be back on the table. of course, i do not want a plant in my backyard ... but we should at least look at it. heck, they use it in france.

[kjb434]

Well, nuclear is back on the table with that new energy bill. It supposed to pave the way for more nuclear power plants.

Also, my mom and dad in Louisiana paid $150 for their electric bill for there 2500 sqft house. I have a 1500 sqft house here in Houston and my bill was $233 last month. Our climates are the same. We actually compared our meter reading for net units and I only beat them by a little. I think it has to do with the fact they get their power from a nuclear facility.

[bruce_oneal]

interesting.

[Kirzania]

The problem is aggravated by the fact that gas refineries across the country keep getting shut down. Whether it's because of antiquity, NIMBYs, or companies who can't/won't pay for their revitalization, they're shut down. Less refineries = Better hold the (three) companies who own the ones left have on prices here.

When it looks like we might not get gas (or oil) from the Middle East or Russia or whoever, they jack up prices because they start selling the product out of their refineries because they can. It's in their head "We can't get gas/oil from our primary source, we can start charging whatever for the gas we produce! No one will know... Brilliant!"

1. Buy refinery

2. ???

3. Profit!

[RedScare]

We already have nuclear power here. Bay City. The safety considerations make it somewhat expensive, even though the fuel is cheaper.