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Drewery Place: Multifamily High-Rise At 2850 Fannin St.


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22 hours ago, Ross said:

Their goal is to maximize the  usable space they can sell. That means boxy. That's just the way it is. What would you build, if you were using your own money, or investor's money? Something cool and cutting edge, or something that maximized your profit?

But there have been plenty of buildings in Houston that were cool and cutting edge rather than boxy, and that brought profit to their investors. How do you know that a boxy building is the only building that can be profitable? Have you seen the cost sheets and revenue projections?

 

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4 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

But there have been plenty of buildings in Houston that were cool and cutting edge rather than boxy, and that brought profit to their investors. How do you know that a boxy building is the only building that can be profitable? Have you seen the cost sheets and revenue projections?

 

Not for those specific buildings, but I've had enough discussion with my architect and developer friends to learn what shapes maximize profits. Some developers may not want to maximize profits, but the boxy designs help that goal. Keep in mind that I didn't offer an opinion on whether that's good or not, I just offered an explanation of why it happens. I've also been in buildings in the Middle East that were cool shapes, and the floor plans were awful, since it's hard to maximize usable space in circles, ovals, truncated cones, etc.

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15 minutes ago, Ross said:

Not for those specific buildings, but I've had enough discussion with my architect and developer friends to learn what shapes maximize profits. Some developers may not want to maximize profits, but the boxy designs help that goal. Keep in mind that I didn't offer an opinion on whether that's good or not, I just offered an explanation of why it happens. I've also been in buildings in the Middle East that were cool shapes, and the floor plans were awful, since it's hard to maximize usable space in circles, ovals, truncated cones, etc.

Some developers are more daring, others are more safe. Architectural enthusiasts are going to applaud the daring ones and groan at the safe ones. Just the way it is. Part of the reward for taking risks is winning the gratitude of the public.

 

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Boxy isn't bad. Most of Houston's more iconic buildings are boxy. I think those translucent plastic models aren't a good representation of what this will look like.

Also I think it looks good. It kind of reminds me of something you'd see in Miami, in a good way. The rounded corners, darker glass, etc, do that.

Edited by zaphod
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18 hours ago, Tumbleweed_Tx said:

the "points" at Pennzoil Place may look cool from the outside, but they are wasted space inside. You can't do anything with them except make them storage or mechanical areas

But because they looked cool, Hines was able to charge more for rent throughout the building and make more money. This was his innovation in high-rise office development in the 70's. He realized that a less efficient building could be more profitable because of the aesthetic appeal.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
27 minutes ago, MarathonMan said:

Where is the other Midtown location?  I know of Montrose, Med Center and Downtown locations.  

Common Bond is also opening up at the Ion. 
 

Edit: I think both the location at the Ion and the location at Drewery Place will be “on-the-go” concepts similar to what Common Bond has up in the Heights (cold sandwiches, pastries, coffee, but without the full menu that includes hot items).

Edited by houstontexasjack
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On 3/19/2021 at 10:50 PM, MarathonMan said:

Heard from a friend who works for Midtown Management District that the Fitzroy/Kimpton tower will be delayed again. . . until 2022.  Anyone else hear anything to that effect?

I just got a marketing e-mail from them (today) stating the estimated closing date for the condos would be late 2023. Of course it has a little asterisk next to it confirming they are full of crap 😆

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On 3/19/2021 at 10:50 PM, MarathonMan said:

Heard from a friend who works for Midtown Management District that the Fitzroy/Kimpton tower will be delayed again. . . until 2022.  Anyone else hear anything to that effect?

Yes, it is delayed.

There has been no new progressive set of construction documents issued (that I'm aware of).  The latest set are Design Development, so they still have at least issue for permit drawings and construction drawing to produce.  I know they were shopping at least three general contractors in October/November of last year and then everything went silent.

 

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Yes, there appears to be a ton of activity going on behind the scenes right now. A lot of capital had been tied up because of the uncertainty of the pandemic but there is a light at the end of the tunnel now and real estate is an investment type people have been waiting to invest in. Especially before the interest rates tick back up.

We may see a flurry of new project proposals this summer. Let's see how many break ground!

Edited by shasta
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14 minutes ago, hindesky said:

Caydon is selling their Midtown Drewery Place apartments.

https://realtynewsreport.com/caydon-selling-drewery-place-apartment-tower-in-midtown/

I'm betting it goes for around $120-$145 million. Also it seems like they're still going foward with the rest of the development 

Quote

Having completed the Drewery Place  tower, Caydon’s next Midtown project is Fitzroy, a 32-story tower pairing 191 condominiums with a 190-room boutique hotel operated by Kimpton Hotels and Restaurants.

Caydon is expect to expected to break ground in mid-2021 and complete the Fitzroy condo tower in late 2023.The 558,000 SF tower will be the second phase of the 2.5 million SF mixed-use district Caydon intends for three city blocks – about 3.5 acres bordered by Main, McGowen, Fannin and Tuam, and adjacent to Midtown Park.

 

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1 minute ago, TheSirDingle said:

I'm betting it goes for around $120-$145 million. Also it seems like they're still going foward with the rest of the development 

 

Does Biv really know something or is he just regurgitating old information?

 

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On 5/7/2021 at 4:08 PM, H-Town Man said:

Their rents are probably low due to the pandemic and will go up afterwards, if it ever ends. 

 

Yes, but they are significantly lower than most of the other highrises that are going through the same pandemic. 

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9 minutes ago, SMU1213 said:

Yes, but they are significantly lower than most of the other highrises that are going through the same pandemic. 

This may be due to their being on the "frontier" in Midtown, east of Main and north of most of the other new multi-family development there. But they have pushed the frontier outwards, benefitting other buildings like the Travis.

 

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On 5/7/2021 at 11:02 AM, SMU1213 said:

I would actually argue that they made it harder for future highrise development in Midtown because The Drewery's rents are so low. Their effective rents are low enough that developers would struggle to make a podium development underwrite, much less a high rise. Also, they haven't been able to get past 65% occupied even with their low rents. 

The Travis is a much better story for Midtown.

Judging by the available units shown on their website, it looks like they are at least 75% occupied.

The Travis appears to be only about 62.5% occupied.

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1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

Judging by the available units shown on their website, it looks like they are at least 75% occupied.

The Travis appears to be only about 62.5% occupied.

Axiometrics has them at 53% occupied and The Travis at 41% occupied.

ApartmentData has them at 53% occupied and the Travis at 39% occupied. Based on what I can tell from the occupancy schedule on the website, Drewery opended in July '19 and The Travis opened in April '20. 

 

For comparison, Apartment Data has The Driscoll and Colombe D'or both opened in August '20 and are 60% occupied 45% occupied respectively. 

 

Edited by SMU1213
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5 hours ago, SMU1213 said:

ApartmentData has them at 53% occupied and the Travis at 39% occupied. Based on what I can tell from the occupancy schedule on the website, Drewery opended in July '19 and The Travis opened in April '20. 

For comparison, Apartment Data has The Driscoll and Colombe D'or both opened in August '20 and are 60% occupied 45% occupied respectively. 

 

Drewery Place and The Travis are obviously struggling relative to comparable properties in other neighborhoods.  Do you think it’s a marketing failure or is Midtown just less desirable?  I can’t help but think it’s a Midtown problem.  I wonder if the recent surge in crime/shootings, the Greyhound Depot dilemma and the sheer volume of homeless people have many steering clear of Midtown altogether.  

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10 hours ago, MarathonMan said:

Drewery Place and The Travis are obviously struggling relative to comparable properties in other neighborhoods.  Do you think it’s a marketing failure or is Midtown just less desirable?  I can’t help but think it’s a Midtown problem.  I wonder if the recent surge in crime/shootings, the Greyhound Depot dilemma and the sheer volume of homeless people have many steering clear of Midtown altogether.  

I just don't know as many people that want to live there compared to say Montrose, Rice Military, the Heights, Lower Heights, or EaDo. There just isn't anything to Midtown other than location. Places like EaDo, Montrose, and the Heights have a culture and vibe. It seems like Midtown has just existed and had some bars that were popular at one point. 

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38 minutes ago, thatguysly said:

I just don't know as many people that want to live there compared to say Montrose, Rice Military, the Heights, Lower Heights, or EaDo. There just isn't anything to Midtown other than location. Places like EaDo, Montrose, and the Heights have a culture and vibe. It seems like Midtown has just existed and had some bars that were popular at one point. 

What? Midtown is the place to be if you're a single 20-something. Midtown also has a ton of convenient things. Places like EaDo/East End doesn't - such as dentists, doctors offices, dermatology, Whole Foods, Randall's, multiple yoga studios, diverse and wide selection of restaurants & bars, gyms out the wazoo, close parks, Barbers, hair salons, banks, pharmacies, you know, the things people usually need in a neighborhood.

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midtown doesn't offer a lot of anything during a pandemic. it'll probably take a hot minute for people to warm up to the idea of being out and about again. once they do, then they'll warm up to staying near the nightlife again.

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4 hours ago, Montrose1100 said:

What? Midtown is the place to be if you're a single 20-something. Midtown also has a ton of convenient things. Places like EaDo/East End doesn't - such as dentists, doctors offices, dermatology, Whole Foods, Randall's, multiple yoga studios, diverse and wide selection of restaurants & bars, gyms out the wazoo, close parks, Barbers, hair salons, banks, pharmacies, you know, the things people usually need in a neighborhood.

As someone in the stated age group, that isn't the perception anymore. A year ago it was but now it's seen as pretty crime ridden. A friend that lives there won't even walk at night anywhere due to safety which neutralizes the walkability aspect of it. The Heights, Montrose, and Washington Ave area are seen as more desirable now. I'm really hoping the Ion and ancillary developments change that though.

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5 hours ago, Montrose1100 said:

What? Midtown is the place to be if you're a single 20-something. Midtown also has a ton of convenient things. Places like EaDo/East End doesn't - such as dentists, doctors offices, dermatology, Whole Foods, Randall's, multiple yoga studios, diverse and wide selection of restaurants & bars, gyms out the wazoo, close parks, Barbers, hair salons, banks, pharmacies, you know, the things people usually need in a neighborhood.

I live in East End and within a 5-10 min walk I have: gyms, dentist office, pharmacy, optometrist, a bunch of different bars restaurants (with more coming), two (or three, depending on how you count the Bayou Trail) parks, a drive-in theatre, and a barcade. Not sure what else is missing.

And unlike the Drewery, no homicides!

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1 hour ago, texan said:

As someone in the stated age group, that isn't the perception anymore. A year ago it was but now it's seen as pretty crime ridden. A friend that lives there won't even walk at night anywhere due to safety which neutralizes the walkability aspect of it. The Heights, Montrose, and Washington Ave area are seen as more desirable now. I'm really hoping the Ion and ancillary developments change that though.

The issue with relying on Ion and the subsequent developments is while its great for the area, its so far south that its almost the Museum District. A lot of what people referring to is now moreso north, basically the blocks getting close to downtown.

Its funny, the Eastern, Western, and Southern parts of Midtown are coming along nicely, its the central and northern portions that need a little help. Theres quite a bit of foot traffic around the Gen/Artisans/Beer Market/Wholefoods area of Midtown even with the Pandemic. Just need to figure out whats happening there that isn't happening around the Drewery and such. 

Edited by X.R.
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Midtown was doing much better towards the end of Parkers admin with bums at an all time low ( then it was seen as one of the up and coming places to be for people like me, not now) . It's 100% the greyhound issue. They are all over that corridor thanks to redline and metro never enforcing ticketing. 

It had a flash of popularity at that point that carried into right before Covid just as the bums began to peak again... And then the population of homeless exploded and because midtown has all the churches, transport and infrastructure for them that's where they stay. 

No one wants to live on that end of midtown. Theres literally perhaps a dozen or so homeless people doing all manner of crazy stuff on every block up and down main and a lot of Fannin too.

Polite people won't say it, but when you have similar options popping up in every other direction with significantly less bum density and already happening places, why bet on midtown? 

 

I think the long arch of midtown is a good bet, but that Grey hound is an albatross. Covid magnified that problem, one it took Parker years and years to fix. Activity there will pick up again. Slowly. 

Edited by Two
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Proximity to the bus stop doesn't help.  Also better/more programming at Midtown Park would liven up the area around there.   

South of Elgin is easier to pop into several different places as opposed to areas North(except around Gray/Bagby).  The rest of Midtown is just a few worthwhile places in a strip center or block surrounded by uninviting streetscape.   

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Now is a good time to point out that what could have been a great amenity and focus point for Midtown, a park encompassing the entire Superblock, was doomed by Camden owning a portion of the block and refusing to sell, and doomed further when they built their project in the middle of the block instead of taking the offered land swap, cutting the envisioned park into two pieces. Of course they didn't *have* to do either of these things, but they could have benefitted all of Midtown (including their own holdings there) with a little more vision.

 

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19 hours ago, texan said:

As someone in the stated age group, that isn't the perception anymore. A year ago it was but now it's seen as pretty crime ridden. A friend that lives there won't even walk at night anywhere due to safety which neutralizes the walkability aspect of it. The Heights, Montrose, and Washington Ave area are seen as more desirable now. I'm really hoping the Ion and ancillary developments change that though.

crime is up everywhere in the city, the recently resigned police chief blamed the current judge, others blame the recently resigned police chief.

some of it might be people being more desperate over the past year.

I guess we'll see if there's any change as things move forward.

I do agree with the overall sentiment, midtown has a lot of potential, and a lot of pockets of really cool things, but overall, it's not there yet, and has taken a step in the wrong direction.

Edited by samagon
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7 hours ago, samagon said:

crime is up everywhere in the city, the recently resigned police chief blamed the current judge, others blame the recently resigned police chief.

some of it might be people being more desperate over the past year.

I guess we'll see if there's any change as things move forward.

I do agree with the overall sentiment, midtown has a lot of potential, and a lot of pockets of really cool things, but overall, it's not there yet, and has taken a step in the wrong direction.

We're seeing a slow undoing, on a national basis, of the longterm decrease in urban crime which lasted roughly from 1990 to 2014. The nadir was 2014 and it was a gentle curve upward at first, but increased more rapidly over the past year. Here is an article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/03/is-americas-great-crime-decline-over/618381/

This doesn't bode well for urban living in general, which flourished during the decline in crime, or Midtown in particular, which has been a pretty challenging neighborhood to remake into an urban paradise, although there has been some success. Those brave developers who pushed east across Houston's historic fault lines may be in for a tough time if the city's population starts retreating west.

 

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Guess I better sell my house before property values tank and head to the burbs. At least I'll get a pool? /s

There are serious issues the city and communities need to address - crime, homelessness, and infrastructure. Guess we can include flooding in the last one.

Anyways, it sucks we won't see what was planned come to life but we got one tower out of it. 

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  • The title was changed to Drewery Place: Multifamily High-Rise at 2850 Fannin by Caydon
  • The title was changed to Drewery Place: Multifamily High-Rise At 2850 Fannin St.

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