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Australian Developer Planning Five High-Rises for Midtown

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29 minutes ago, Luminare said:

 

I would agree, but precedent thus far has dictated that this would stay together as a whole. Its been the same with other "urban core" projects like The Allen, Lower Heights, etc...

Correct. This thread will remain intact since this is part of Caydon's overall phases here.

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How prone is Caydon to value engineering? The Allen looked promising but it too became scaled down to a degree after the initial renderings. While I love the design of the building and the curves, I'm not sure how I feel about the brown. Anybody?

Edited by wxman
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10 hours ago, htownbro said:

A game changer for Mid-town!!!  Start construction now!

 

Not just midtown, but Houston!

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19 minutes ago, Twinsanity02 said:

Is this hotel part of the "five highrises" Caydon has planned?  Anyone know approximately when groundbreaking is to occur.

 

Yes. I think 1Q 2020

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@gclass Both of those are under the Marriott brand.  W was nice under SPG from a loyalty perspective.   I'm surprised you didn't mention Mandarin Oriental.

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RevPAR (revenue per available room) has been pretty awful in Houston since the last oil bust. We added a ton of supply since then, and demand hasn’t picked up enough to offset it. 

 

These boutique brands are probably relying heavily on a condo concept to bring in enough money to offset the relatively low hotel revenue they might generate. 

 

Austin is a hotel market that can frankly never get enough rooms. The demand there is unbelievable, especially in the urban areas. 

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9 minutes ago, HNathoo said:

RevPAR (revenue per available room) has been pretty awful in Houston since the last oil bust. We added a ton of supply since then, and demand hasn’t picked up enough to offset it. 

 

These boutique brands are probably relying heavily on a condo concept to bring in enough money to offset the relatively low hotel revenue they might generate. 

 

Austin is a hotel market that can frankly never get enough rooms. The demand there is unbelievable, especially in the urban areas. 

 

We just need to build a tourism industry. Downtown is drawing people from the suburbs for staycations, Astros games with an overnight stay, etc., but word has not gotten around the state yet. Actually I have met some couples here in Austin who like going to Houston for things; they are not originally from Texas and so haven't been infected with the anti-Houston mentality. We need to keep building up the local draw and then work our way outwards.

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38 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

We just need to build a tourism industry. Downtown is drawing people from the suburbs for staycations, Astros games with an overnight stay, etc., but word has not gotten around the state yet. Actually I have met some couples here in Austin who like going to Houston for things; they are not originally from Texas and so haven't been infected with the anti-Houston mentality. We need to keep building up the local draw and then work our way outwards.

 

What is Houston lacking to make it a tourist destination?  From my perspective the things that are the biggest draw for tourist areas Houston will never have.  We don't have the right geography, historical pedigree, or cultural significance that other tourist dominated destinations have.  Houston should focus on it's strengths which are food, museum district, and performing arts.  I did see Mayor Turner mention bringing an amusement park to Houston on Twitter.

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11 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

 

What is Houston lacking to make it a tourist destination?  From my perspective the things that are the biggest draw for tourist areas Houston will never have.  We don't have the right geography, historical pedigree, or cultural significance that other tourist dominated destinations have.  Houston should focus on it's strengths which are food, museum district, and performing arts.  I did see Mayor Turner mention bringing an amusement park to Houston on Twitter.

 

I agree that we don’t have the right geography, historical pedigree, or cultural significance compared to other tourist-dominated destinations.  However, I would assert that we could create something significant that would draw people to our city, but we don’t think big.  I’ve always thought that Houston could do something really grand — something comparable to the Eiffel Tower in its time — that could define the city and make people see us.  Architecture is a great way to build an identity.  It just seems that nobody here wants to stick their neck out to be bold.

 

I agree that Houston has great food, museums and arts, but those are hard to sell to outsiders all by themselves.

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11 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

We just need to build a tourism industry. Downtown is drawing people from the suburbs for staycations, Astros games with an overnight stay, etc., but word has not gotten around the state yet. Actually I have met some couples here in Austin who like going to Houston for things; they are not originally from Texas and so haven't been infected with the anti-Houston mentality. We need to keep building up the local draw and then work our way outwards.

 

The perception of the strong association between Republican politics and the dominant industry in Houston is a bitter pill for younger, conscientious generations to swallow.  Though it's still a powerful economic driver, O&G saddles Houston with an image neither Austin (nor dallas) suffer from.  Conversely, those two towns benefit from the allure that people associate with the tech industry which - for the time being - is virtually absent along the Gulf Coast. 

Edited by nonenadazilch
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18 hours ago, BeerNut said:

 

What is Houston lacking to make it a tourist destination?  From my perspective the things that are the biggest draw for tourist areas Houston will never have.  We don't have the right geography, historical pedigree, or cultural significance that other tourist dominated destinations have.  Houston should focus on it's strengths which are food, museum district, and performing arts.  I did see Mayor Turner mention bringing an amusement park to Houston on Twitter.

 

It doesn't take world class, UNESCO-type landmarks, most younger people are just hungry for an urban environment, a place where they can be outside of their car for an extended period and experience an authentic, active, historic place (not a phony town center built for shopping). We really aren't lacking much. With the vibrancy downtown plus the best museums in the South a train ride away and the green amenities of Hermann Park and the bayou, we are turning the corner on having a great urban core. We just need to make it all connect and cohere a little better. I still meet people who visited and thought that "Houston didn't have much of a downtown" because they ended up on the wrong side of downtown, etc.

 

We are really close. Remove some more warts, add in some more nice infill, and GET THE WORD OUT! 

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Deleted a sidebar conversation.  As long as posts are on-topic and don't violate HAIF rules, we've never told members not to post unless they have new information, and we're not planning to start.  Likewise, there's no policy about excessive gifs, but recognize that some people find them annoying so I wouldn't overdo it with them.  

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Genuinely curious as to what “side” of downtown is regarded as  “wrong” by residents or considered “wrong” by visitors, and more importantly, why. 

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1 hour ago, Diaspora said:

Genuinely curious as to what “side” of downtown is regarded as  “wrong” by residents or considered “wrong” by visitors, and more importantly, why. 

 

Don't read more into the line than is there, no part of it is "wrong" in any absolute sense, but if you were in Houston for the first time and came upon the south side of downtown instead of the north, you probably wouldn't have a great impression. Why? Because it's mostly parking lots and garages, along with a giant rotting building and very little historic or pedestrian-oriented.

Edited by H-Town Man
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lus the north end has most of the history and older buildings that are important to the fabric of downtown.

It used to be that people thought that set of main was not good but as you can see it is now the hotbed of

activity both in stadiums parks, convention center and most of the new hotels.

It's also developing quite a neighborhood feel with all of the residential.

Historic and arts districts are right there with all of it's venues and gateway to Buffalo Bayou.

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On 10/5/2019 at 3:25 PM, BeerNut said:

 

What is Houston lacking to make it a tourist destination?  From my perspective the things that are the biggest draw for tourist areas Houston will never have.  We don't have the right geography, historical pedigree, or cultural significance that other tourist dominated destinations have.  Houston should focus on it's strengths which are food, museum district, and performing arts.  I did see Mayor Turner mention bringing an amusement park to Houston on Twitter.

 

Houston already is a tourist destination. Keep in mind, the second largest inbound market to the US is Mexico (behind Canada). A large chunk of the Mexico tourist market goes to California, New York, and Houstonhttps://www.ustravel.org/system/files/media_root/document/Research_Country-Profile_Mexico.pdf

 

Now, does Houston get a lot of European tourists, like New York, Chicago and San Francisco do? No. Does Houston get domestic tourists like, Orlando, New York and Las Vegas do? No.

But Houston -does- get tourists from Central and South America. Admittedly, this group is a relatively small slice of the overall US tourist market. However, it is just factually wrong to suggest that Houston is not a tourist destination. I personally have met many Mexicans who have told me they were in town visiting Houston, just to go shopping at the Galleria. 

 

Don't get stuck trying to hammer a square into a round tourist hole. Tourism can take many forms and colors

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On 10/5/2019 at 3:25 PM, BeerNut said:

 

What is Houston lacking to make it a tourist destination?  From my perspective the things that are the biggest draw for tourist areas Houston will never have.  We don't have the right geography, historical pedigree, or cultural significance that other tourist dominated destinations have.  Houston should focus on it's strengths which are food, museum district, and performing arts.  I did see Mayor Turner mention bringing an amusement park to Houston on Twitter.

Astroworld 2.0!!  He said announcement in 6-8 weeks!  Back to Caydon.  So are there renderings of other phases yet?

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12 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Houston already is a tourist destination. Keep in mind, the second largest inbound market to the US is Mexico (behind Canada). A large chunk of the Mexico tourist market goes to California, New York, and Houstonhttps://www.ustravel.org/system/files/media_root/document/Research_Country-Profile_Mexico.pdf

 

Now, does Houston get a lot of European tourists, like New York, Chicago and San Francisco do? No. Does Houston get domestic tourists like, Orlando, New York and Las Vegas do? No.

But Houston -does- get tourists from Central and South America. Admittedly, this group is a relatively small slice of the overall US tourist market. However, it is just factually wrong to suggest that Houston is not a tourist destination. I personally have met many Mexicans who have told me they were in town visiting Houston, just to go shopping at the Galleria. 

 

Don't get stuck trying to hammer a square into a round tourist hole. Tourism can take many forms and colors

 

Point taken. But the context of the discussion was our poor hotel performance since the oil bust. Also I believe I read in the past year or so that the highest revenue night for downtown hotels is still Wednesday rather than Friday or Saturday, indicating primarily business clientele. So while we may have some tourism, it is not enough to fill our hotels, and we lag significantly behind Austin, San Antonio, and DFW.

 

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On 10/5/2019 at 1:29 PM, H-Town Man said:

 

We just need to build a tourism industry. Downtown is drawing people from the suburbs for staycations, Astros games with an overnight stay, etc., but word has not gotten around the state yet. Actually I have met some couples here in Austin who like going to Houston for things; they are not originally from Texas and so haven't been infected with the anti-Houston mentality. We need to keep building up the local draw and then work our way outwards.

Amen !  I've been saying something similar to this for decades on this forum.  Mostly, I get a beating down by a few posters about "not being mean to" fill in the blank ....  other cities, etc... which imho is a bunch of full on b.s. !

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This is awesome!! 48 stories is probably the max they can go for in Midtown though so don't expect a 50+ building mostly because Midtown is directly under the Arrival Procedure for Hobby RWY 13R and it is the most used runway at HOU. That's the only reason i think midtown will never have a supertall building, FAA won't allow it. 

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36 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Point taken. But the context of the discussion was our poor hotel performance since the oil bust. Also I believe I read in the past year or so that the highest revenue night for downtown hotels is still Wednesday rather than Friday or Saturday, indicating primarily business clientele. So while we may have some tourism, it is not enough to fill our hotels, and we lag significantly behind Austin, San Antonio, and DFW.

 

 

If it's not revenues, something must be driving new hotel developments downtown. It seems like a new one opens every new week, with more being announced all the time. Perhaps the revenues aren't enough to entice some of the higher end brands to to open up here,  but they will soon be in a tiny minority. 

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2 minutes ago, enriquewx91 said:

This is awesome!! 48 stories is probably the max they can go for in Midtown though so don't expect a 50+ building mostly because Midtown is directly under the Arrival Procedure for Hobby RWY 13R and it is the most used runway at HOU. That's the only reason i think midtown will never have a supertall building, FAA won't allow it. 

I've read many times now, that this height restriction because of Hobby Airport, is pure bunk, and I tend to agree.  There is no approach that far from downtown that brings airlines even close enough to a tall building that it might "hit" on the way to landing.  It is a myth I've heard over and over as an excuse for these developers to stop at 50 stories.  More importantly, and maybe a big factor, is the rumor that anything above 50 floors supposedly increases the cost of the building exponentially due to the need for multiple elevator shafts, etc...  Perhaps, but then what explains, other than just excessive oil income for certain developers, the Williams Tower, Chase Tower, and a few others way over 50 stories ?  Vanity ?  I say good, we need a bit more vanity around this town.  After all, there is no vanity large enough in Texas to overcome the bloated self image of certain cities to the far North or central Texas by a long shot ! LOL!  Remember "Houston Proud"?  Maybe we should all live that way in our day to day lives and by example increase tourism as people are hungry for a different kind of urban experience, but one that is friendly to pedestrians and mass transit users ?  At this point, I'd say it's just a matter of money and the will to erect a few super talls (well over 1100 feet) to make Texas' larger than life reputation just that more genuine, especially in the nation's FOURTH (about to be THIRD) largest city in America.  It is way past time we should have taken our rightful place in this country.  However, because of so much caution by those with the money and power, it will take some time to achieve.  After Rome wasn't even built in a day, either.  Take this as you want to, but I know I'm correct in my assumptions after so many years of watching, observing and participating in Houston's architecture movements and on this awesome forum.  Just my 2.5 cents worth.

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8 minutes ago, Sunstar said:

 

If it's not revenues, something must be driving new hotel developments downtown. It seems like a new one opens every new week, with more being announced all the time. Perhaps the revenues aren't enough to entice some of the higher end brands to to open up here,  but they will soon be in a tiny minority. 

 

I can think of a few renovations that are underway or just completed, the C. Baldwin, the Cambria and Hyatt on Texas Avenue, and a potential Marriott concept in the old State National Building. C. Baldwin is basically a redo of the old Doubletree to stay competitive. Similar to Brookfield's office renovations downtown, they are investing for the long term as they know the market will come back at some point. The other renovations are "low hanging fruit," not very expensive since you already have an empty building sitting there. There will always be a certain amount of development when you are in the trough of a market cycle as people anticipate the market coming back and want to be ready when it does.

 

But the main point in this thread is that downtown's hotels are still primarily driven by business, not tourism. I spent a weekend at the Magnolia last year for $68/night (before taxes). That must be the best deal in the world. $68/night in San Antonio would maybe get you a La Quinta out on Loop 410 on the southwest side of town. The takeaway being (a) we are lacking in weekend tourism, and (b) there's no good reason why we should be at this point. People just aren't aware.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Point taken. But the context of the discussion was our poor hotel performance since the oil bust. Also I believe I read in the past year or so that the highest revenue night for downtown hotels is still Wednesday rather than Friday or Saturday, indicating primarily business clientele. So while we may have some tourism, it is not enough to fill our hotels, and we lag significantly behind Austin, San Antonio, and DFW.

 

 

I'll defer to you on the highest revenue night for Downtown being Wednesday. But even if it is, wouldn't the same be true of downtown New York, San Francisco, Washington, etc.? Other than pure tourist cities like Las Vegas and Orlando, wouldn't all central business district hotels generate more revenue during the middle of the week as opposed to the weekend? 

 

Regarding weekend occupancy only and not revenue, then I agree Houston in general lags behind other cities. 

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28 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

I'll defer to you on the highest revenue night for Downtown being Wednesday. But even if it is, wouldn't the same be true of downtown New York, San Francisco, Washington, etc.? Other than pure tourist cities like Las Vegas and Orlando, wouldn't all central business district hotels generate more revenue during the middle of the week as opposed to the weekend? 

 

Regarding weekend occupancy only and not revenue, then I agree Houston in general lags behind other cities. 

 

No, most cities with any tourism have their highest revenue nights on the weekend.

 

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Why do you guys always turn such great threads like this into such boring snoozefests? We all know that Houston could use some more Disneylands or Space Needles or Mount Rushmores or Statue of Libertys or whatever. Take this outside or to another thread so I don't have to waste my time reading any of it when I feel like looking of renderings of midtown's new skyline and reading about start dates and such. Thank you. Have a great day. Impeach Trump.

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12 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

I can think of a few renovations that are underway or just completed, the C. Baldwin, the Cambria and Hyatt on Texas Avenue, and a potential Marriott concept in the old State National Building. C. Baldwin is basically a redo of the old Doubletree to stay competitive. Similar to Brookfield's office renovations downtown, they are investing for the long term as they know the market will come back at some point. The other renovations are "low hanging fruit," not very expensive since you already have an empty building sitting there. There will always be a certain amount of development when you are in the trough of a market cycle as people anticipate the market coming back and want to be ready when it does.

 

But the main point in this thread is that downtown's hotels are still primarily driven by business, not tourism. I spent a weekend at the Magnolia last year for $68/night (before taxes). That must be the best deal in the world. $68/night in San Antonio would maybe get you a La Quinta out on Loop 410 on the southwest side of town. The takeaway being (a) we are lacking in weekend tourism, and (b) there's no good reason why we should be at this point. People just aren't aware.

 

 

The renovations of older buildings for new hotels has been a huge boon for downtown IMO, and I hope the trend continues. I agree revenues are mainly business driven, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I suspect there has been an incremental increase in our tourism numbers over the past 10 years or so, and that will likely continue, but I don't know of anything we can add above what we already have that will suddenly catapult us into the ranks of Austin/San Antonio, let alone NYC or SF. It kind of is what it is. The further densification (not sure that's a word) of downtown and other neighborhoods will help. I also think projects like the next phases of the Buffalo Bayou and the Memorial Park Master Plans will also help from a beautification standpoint. But several of our major attractions like Nasa and the San Jacinto Battlefield, which in most cities would be huge tourist attractions, are hindered by being too far outside the city with no reliable means of getting to other than rental car or Uber/Taxi. 

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27 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

No, most cities with any tourism have their highest revenue nights on the weekend.

 

 

I’m not sure that’s true. My Monday-Thursday hotel rates in Manhattan (when I travel their for business) are far higher than the same hotel’s Friday-Sunday rates.

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If you've never complained about the effing tourists, you don't live in a tourist town.  Who among us has ever complained about the all tourists in Houston?

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23 hours ago, Diaspora said:

Genuinely curious as to what “side” of downtown is regarded as  “wrong” by residents or considered “wrong” by visitors, and more importantly, why. 

 

The south edge of downtown still has pockets of "dead" zones.
For example, I was approached by a tourist while waiting for a bus at Pierce and Milam who asked if I knew where to find restaurants close by, and I completely drew a blank. There's a utilitarian sandwich shop in the METRO building, but aside from that, nothing comes to mind that isn't several blocks away.
Let's just say that this part of downtown doesn't bustle.

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There's Stack burger and McDonald's but both are a couple blocks away.  And that dive bar is probably not the best choice for tourists

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1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

 

But the main point in this thread is that downtown's hotels are still primarily driven by business, not tourism. I spent a weekend at the Magnolia last year for $68/night (before taxes). That must be the best deal in the world. $68/night in San Antonio would maybe get you a La Quinta out on Loop 410 on the southwest side of town. The takeaway being (a) we are lacking in weekend tourism, and (b) there's no good reason why we should be at this point. People just aren't aware.

 

 

Most hotels in non-resort areas are kept afloat by business travelers, not leisure travelers. (Same is true for airlines, for that matter.) Sao Paulo has twice as many hotels as Rio de Janeiro, and it's not because SP is a more attractive tourist destination.

 

I suspect that most of the people who stay in downtown hotels over a weekend are either there for a convention or a sporting event, as anyone who's tried to get an elevator at the Marriott Marquis an hour before first pitch of an Astros game can tell you. 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/6/2019 at 2:27 AM, gclass said:

 

houston, on the other hand, was hereby saddled with the BLUE COLLAR image due to the simple fact that... most of the energy industry WORKERS/OFFICIALS very often harbored residences within our fair city.  throughout the decades to follow, this particular BLUE COLLAR image has been one to slowly dissipate no-matter how very hard our CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE and CONVENTION/TOURISM industry has tried throughout the decades to dispel/deride our city of this image. 


I blame "Urban Cowboy". Forty years after its release, its influence is still felt.

 

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17 minutes ago, cspwal said:

There's Stack burger and McDonald's but both are a couple blocks away.  And that dive bar is probably not the best choice for tourists

 

True - and not everyone feels comfortable navigating the sidewalks under the Pierce Elevated. 
Actually, most people.
 

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46 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

If you've never complained about the effing tourists, you don't live in a tourist town.  Who among us has ever complained about the all tourists in Houston?

 

Do, 2-8-1'ers count as tourists? If so, then I complained about all the 2-8-1 tourists visiting Downtown when I lived at Rice. 

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1 hour ago, dbigtex56 said:

 

The south edge of downtown still has pockets of "dead" zones.
For example, I was approached by a tourist while waiting for a bus at Pierce and Milam who asked if I knew where to find restaurants close by, and I completely drew a blank. There's a utilitarian sandwich shop in the METRO building, but aside from that, nothing comes to mind that isn't several blocks away.
Let's just say that this part of downtown doesn't bustle.

There are a lot of places nearby in Midtown.

Screen Shot 2019-10-07 at 1.44.54 PM.jpg

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4 minutes ago, MidCenturyMoldy said:

There are a lot of places nearby in Midtown.

Yes.
Several blocks away, and on the other side of the Pierce Elevated.

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4 minutes ago, dbigtex56 said:

Yes.
Several blocks away, and on the other side of the Pierce Elevated.

 

My first thought was Nit Noi, a block and a half away. 

 

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1 hour ago, Angostura said:

 

Most hotels in non-resort areas are kept afloat by business travelers, not leisure travelers. (Same is true for airlines, for that matter.) Sao Paulo has twice as many hotels as Rio de Janeiro, and it's not because SP is a more attractive tourist destination.

 

I suspect that most of the people who stay in downtown hotels over a weekend are either there for a convention or a sporting event, as anyone who's tried to get an elevator at the Marriott Marquis an hour before first pitch of an Astros game can tell you. 

 

 

 

The Downtown District discussed this in their second quarter report:

 

"The highest RevPAR by day of the week for Downtown's hospitality market was Wednesday last month, an indicator that the hospitality market in Downtown continues to be primarily business traveler's destination." http://www.downtowndistrict.org/static/media/uploads/attachments/downtown_market_update_2019_q2.pdf

 

From the wording, it sounds like at some point they're expecting one of the weekend nights to surpass Wednesday. I don't think you have to be a "resort area" for this to happen. I would imagine that in downtown San Antonio and downtown Austin the weekend nights do the most business. I think this is more than likely the case for downtown Dallas as well, but don't have the figures in front of me.

 

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^ Just wanted to let you know that your post are always so annoying to try to read so I never read them. Have no idea what you are saying because it's just not worth the headache. I don't think this ornamental stuff is the least bit entertaining. I'm sure you're a nice guy and all. But these cheap graphics and bizarre showboating is stupid. That's all. G'day!

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5 hours ago, Naviguessor said:

If you've never complained about the effing tourists, you don't live in a tourist town.  Who among us has ever complained about the all tourists in Houston?

 

Market Square must qualify as a tourist town, then.  (those effing chop top busses... 👺)

5 hours ago, Naviguessor said:

If you've never complained about the effing tourists, you don't live in a tourist town.  Who among us has ever complained about the all tourists in Houston?

 

Market Square must qualify as a tourist town, then.  (those effing chop top busses... 👺)

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7 hours ago, enriquewx91 said:

This is awesome!! 48 stories is probably the max they can go for in Midtown though so don't expect a 50+ building mostly because Midtown is directly under the Arrival Procedure for Hobby RWY 13R and it is the most used runway at HOU. That's the only reason i think midtown will never have a supertall building, FAA won't allow it. 

I think that 50+ story restriction is a myth, and has more to do with the the cost of going above 50+ stories. Anyway, a couple months back the FAA building permits said they're going to be up to 54 or 56 stories tall. I could see this hotel being one of the shorter buildings in this development. Especially with how many condos, and residential units they're putting up on these blocks. 

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