The Driscoll High-Rise & River Oaks Shopping Center Developments

[Native Montrosian]

An allusion was made in one interview regarding consideration of offers to lease out the Alabama eventually, if anyone could afford it. Doesn't sound very negotiation-friendly, but maybe that's just me. Also, they can sell or lease either theater all day long, but it won't do much good if a group has to have a monthly volunteer sell a kidney to lease the parking, or if they won't allow parking at all. The Village Arcade garage on Morningside has warning signs about parking for Brian O' Neill's, Woodrows and the Ginger Man threatening towing.

[TheNiche]

An allusion was made in one interview regarding consideration of offers to lease out the Alabama eventually, if anyone could afford it. Doesn't sound very negotiation-friendly, but maybe that's just me. Also, they can sell or lease either theater all day long, but it won't do much good if a group has to have a monthly volunteer sell a kidney to lease the parking, or if they won't allow parking at all. The Village Arcade garage on Morningside has warning signs about parking for Brian O' Neill's, Woodrows and the Ginger Man threatening towing.

As far as the Alabama Theater is concerned, there is good reason not to be optimistic, or for the leasing agent to sound unfriendly. Weingarten knows full well that a paying tenant with good credit like B&N that can both afford the high-priced space and use it efficiently is very unlikely to come along. And the fact is that a preservation group probably couldn't lease it perpetually because interest fades pretty quickly; the sources of funding would be unstable, probably drying up within a short period of time. At that point, Weingarten has two options: let it be vacant and incur a high opportunity cost related to wasted space and the wasted dirt associated with it, or redevelop that irreplacable corner into a more functional space that can fetch a much higher lease rate and be more fully occupied. You know what they'll choose.

The key is for a preservation group to buy it. MONEY TALKS. A lease with some un-creditworthy organization won't cut it.

Edited September 10, 2007 by TheNiche

[sevfiv]

The key is for a preservation group to buy it. MONEY TALKS. A lease with some un-creditworthy organization won't cut it.

i think i have mentioned this before, but a group of preservationists - whether it be an assortment of folks from the community, a nonprofit organization, or both - are not *usually* in the retail management field, or have enough money to satiate Weingarten. from what someone else has posted, offers had already been made and were not accepted.

while it is interesting to entertain the idea of the "GHPA/National Trust Alabama Theater Center" i can guarantee that any nonprofit that would be anywhere near able to undertake something local like this has nowhere near the money to take the property out of Weingarten's clutches.

and i sure as hell don't see some of the earlier (now quiet) activists putting forth any $ (like Lynn Wyatt and her color-coordinated protest)

[musicman]

and i sure as hell don't see some of the earlier (now quiet) activists putting forth any $ (like Lynn Wyatt and her color-coordinated protest)

with her hubby in the trial of his life, not sure if they'll have money for long.

[SteveTXMD]

New article in todays Chronicle. I've been trying to scan this whole thread, but it's huge! Doesn't look good.

Save me some time? What is the latest published plan for the sections that they have already demolished?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5121222.html

As demolition work continues nearby, the River Oaks Theater remains open. Preservationists hope to save the 1939 vintage movie house, whose lease is up in 2010, and the Alabama Theater on Shepherd.

Jessica Kourkounis: For the Chronicle

Sept. 10, 2007, 8:37AM

River Oaks theaters' drama playing behind the scenes

By MATT STILES and MIKE SNYDER

For months before bulldozers began pounding the historic River Oaks Shopping Center last week, city officials and preservationists vented their frustrations, plotted strategy and reluctantly acknowledged that the distinctive, crescent-shaped building appeared doomed.

Some officials favored a conciliatory approach, while others wanted to ensure that destruction of the building was as inconvenient as possible for its owner, Weingarten Realty Investors, according to e-mails obtained by the Houston Chronicle under the Texas Public Information Act.

Now, as Weingarten proceeds with its plans to redevelop the northwest section of the shopping center, local and national preservationists are focusing their attention on how to save Weingarten's two historic, Art Deco-style theater buildings in Houston: The River Oaks Theater across West Gray from the demolished shopping center, and the Alabama Theater building on Shepherd that now houses a Bookstop.

....

Jill Jewett, Mayor Bill White's cultural affairs adviser, argued in an April 2 e-mail that the designation would cost Weingarten money and create ill will that might complicate future efforts to save the historic theaters.

....

In the end, Weingarten executives seemed rigidly focused on the company's bottom line and unswayed by appeals to sentiment or nostalgia, preservation leaders said.

mike.snyder@chron.com matt.stiles@chron.com

Edited September 11, 2007 by Subdude
Copyright restrictions

[Native Montrosian]

Lynn Wyatt and her color-coordinated protest

Actually, that was Carolyn Farb. Considering that one of the nation's most respected fund raisers, who is certainly more in a position to judge the possibilities of WRI selling the property to a community trust or private entity than we are due to her infinite connections is not mounting a campaign to fund such, I don't hold out much hope. I pray that I'm wrong and she or someone else has a successful plan quietly brewing.

Then again, the Teepee Motel in Wharton is alive and kicking because a couple won $49 million in the lottery. Shoot, I'll buy an extra couple of tickets this week. Can't be any more frustrating that the 116 useless letters I wrote and mailed. Who knows....

[sevfiv]

Actually, that was Carolyn Farb. Considering that one of the nation's most respected fund raisers, who is certainly more in a position to judge the possibilities of WRI selling the property to a community trust or private entity than we are due to her infinite connections is not mounting a campaign to fund such, I don't hold out much hope. I pray that I'm wrong and she or someone else has a successful plan quietly brewing.

Then again, the Teepee Motel in Wharton is alive and kicking because a couple won $49 million in the lottery. Shoot, I'll buy an extra couple of tickets this week. Can't be any more frustrating that the 116 useless letters I wrote and mailed. Who knows....

ah yes - Farb. i can't seem to make huge distinctions in my head. oops!

edit - i think this is the picture that threw me - it's the pink:

Edited September 10, 2007 by sevfiv

[Subdude]

I said this before, but I seriously doubt that Weingarten's shareholders actively support tearing down historic structures. I think that's a bit of a red herring. Still, they are in business ultimately to maximze profit. That is why most cities regulate protection of historic structures. The lesson here is that firms like Weingarten aren't going to pay attention to symbolic gestures. "The market" isn't going to deliver up historic preservation. As long as Houston can't bring itself to take other than symbolic preservation measures, then nothing will change.

After reading the article I would lay you strong odds that the two theaters are doomed. It will be the same story as with the shopping center. The Prudential building is a goner too.

[Parrothead]

Wow, Bill White doesn't really give a crap about historic preservation. That's a shocker!

[VicMan]

I said this before, but I seriously doubt that Weingarten's shareholders actively support tearing down historic structures. I think that's a bit of a red herring. Still, they are in business ultimately to maximze profit. That is why most cities regulate protection of historic structures. The lesson here is that firms like Weingarten aren't going to pay attention to symbolic gestures. "The market" isn't going to deliver up historic preservation. As long as Houston can't bring itself to take other than symbolic preservation measures, then nothing will change.

After reading the article I would lay you strong odds that the two theaters are doomed. It will be the same story as with the shopping center. The Prudential building is a goner too.

Is there a stronger movement to preserve the River Oaks Theatre than to preserve the general shopping center?

If people REALLY want to save the theaters, they must be willing to interfere with the demolition process peacefully - By that, steal the keys to the demolition devices when possible (I hear people leave the keys in the equipment) - Sit in the path of devices and not leave when told to. Have a willingness to be arrested and convicted of trespassing and other criminal charges.

Edited September 11, 2007 by VicMan

[Dan the Man]

Is there a stronger movement to preserve the River Oaks Theatre than to preserve the general shopping center?

I think so. While the Shopping Center has more architectural significance that the theater, most people are more concerned about the theater. This whole movement is not just about historic preservation, rather it is about preserving places that are truely unique to Houston's Inner Loop. The theater has a lot of cultural significance to Houston, due to specificity brought about by old age and the alternative/indie culture that it embraces and symbolizes. The notion of replacing it with a generic commercial building that houses a national chain tenant is upsetting to a lot of people who value cultural authenticity and a sense of place in their surroundings.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Dan the Man

[Daniepwils]

Kinda of off the topic.

Is it Krogers or Randalls that is in this shopping center and is it still there? or are they tearing it down as well? -- was talking with someone at work and I used to shop there all the time and for the life of me can't remember.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Daniepwils

[travelguy_73]

Kinda of off the topic.

Is it Krogers or Randalls that is in this shopping center and is it still there? or are they tearing it down as well? -- was talking with someone at work and I used to shop there all the time and for the life of me can't remember.

it's Kroger...arguably the best Kroger in the city. Thankfully, AFAIK, that section is not part of the teardown plan.

[Daniepwils]

ok good. I do like that store -- I think I will go there again. The Randalls in Midtown just isn't -- well Randall's anymore! nuff said!

[H-Town Man]

I said this before, but I seriously doubt that Weingarten's shareholders actively support tearing down historic structures. I think that's a bit of a red herring. Still, they are in business ultimately to maximze profit. That is why most cities regulate protection of historic structures. The lesson here is that firms like Weingarten aren't going to pay attention to symbolic gestures. "The market" isn't going to deliver up historic preservation. As long as Houston can't bring itself to take other than symbolic preservation measures, then nothing will change.

But gee, the market is the greatest thing in the world, and everything it does is good!!

[/prominent local blog personality]

[SirTonk]

Long reply coming your way. I went through all eleven pages and picked a few topics where I can possibly shed a bit of light. I was in Iraq when this all went down, so wasn't spending much time on the HAIF forums. Glad y'all have helped so much in the preservation effort.

I've been working at the River Oaks for a few years and am the lead projectionist and senior Houston manager. If y'all have any questions, or would like a tour of the place, let me know. I'm putting together a weekly tour that will include a slideshow of old theatres and a little history of Houston cinema presentation. Should be a fun time and will help raise awareness.

I'd be right there too. It's a great old theatre. My only complaint is with the two upstairs screens in what used to be the main theatre's balcony. My long legs only fit in about three or four seats in the upstairs theatres. But other than that, it's a great place, and it always seems busy.

Landmark did that in the late 80's since the theatre wasn't doing well and it would give them more revenue. They didn't get the Greenway and Saks until the early 90's, so they weren't around to help. And the seats suck compared to downstairs because we couldn't move them since there is a level between each row. They were shifted downstairs to help out, so it's much better there.

Here's my take on it. Weingarten is not totally happy with the tenant mix at River Oaks Shopping Center. They would like it to be more "upscale," on par perhaps with Highland Village. They made no bones about it a few years ago when they chased out One's-A-Meal, another local institution, to make space for a Talbots or something. Given that track record, you can see where they're not thrilled with a grimy 70-year old movie theater that no doubt doesn't exactly rake in big bucks.

The River Oaks is paying around $20k a month in rent, compared to ~$7k a month for the Greenway. So Weingarten isn't exactly doing bad for such a small space. And the theatre is doing well for the most part. We made over $25k the opening weekend of Fahrenheit 9/11 and similar numbers for Brokeback.

You know, if I were a Weingarten rep, I'd start considering an incremental raise in the Landmark's rents in such a way that they'd be forced to raise their ticket prices about a dollar at a time. This would be the best test of all as to whether they were creating as much public benefit as is ascribed to the theatre. Once its return as a business investment has been reduced to about the prime rate, they should only at that point make a feasibility analysis on the tower.

This is what happened with the Saks Theatre, so we're no stranger to that. It's just too bad that noone ever took the Saks after Landmark and it's getting torn down soon.

I remember reading that Cuban goal was to convert all Landmark Cinemas to a Digital Format. I don't know anything about cinema technology, but the RO Theater may not be very open to this type of change. The battle to save this great theater may need to include petitions and such to Landmark expressing our concerns.

He's having trouble with this. It'll be a while before everyone goes digital due to format issues and image quality. The River Oaks will keep the 35mm setup just to be able to play the old midnight runs, the Greenway might go digital though.

river oaks theater showed napoleon dynamite?

Yep, we had it exclusive for a couple of weeks before it caught on and got real big.

To be honest, last time *I* was there was about 10 years ago, and that was to see Rocky Horror with a girlfriend (went to 10 shows) and it was packed everytime!

We sold almost 400 tickets to yesterday's Rocky, so it's still doing quite well. (the main house holds 500)

Again, if the protestors are so against it, then why not buy the property themselves and save it ? Why do they always have to put the burden on someone else ?

From what I've heard, that has been tried with both theatres and Weingarten won't sell. So this argument, which is still being repeated, holds no water. And the idea of a collective group with a non-profit would be a disaster. Can you imagine trying to figure out who decides what the theatre is allowed to do? What a mess that would be.

Do you know (and maybe I just missed it in all the coverage) if the River Oaks theater has seen an increase in the number of moviegoers since this news broke?

Yep, and at least 70% of the people will ask about when/if the theatre is being torn down. Landmark won't really allow the employees to comment, since Weingarten could jack up the rent in response to an unruly tennant, so I just say that local laws allow the property owner to do whatever they want and we don't know anything specific.

Several years ago River Oaks Theater celebrated the 50 yr anniversary. They played 3 of the films they played in 1939 in this order. The Wizard of Oz, Wuthering Heights and finally Gone With The Wind.

The crowd was massive I recall it went around the block. Popcorn was like 5 cents drinks 10 cents like in 1939 or close to. It was neat becasue there was an intermission (like in the old days). Everyone stood and clapped at the end of each film. (tears/choked up)

We're planning a similar event for the 75th in 2014, assuming the theatre is still there.

A high-rise where Bookstop is? I can't even imagine something on that large of a scale given the congestion already in the area... Someone else mentioned this before, but I really love the idea of the Alamo Draft House coming in. It would save the theatre, put films back on the screen, and the dark lighting would dampen some of painful colors in there

This would only be good if the owners of the original Drafthouse did it, which they can't. All new Drafthouses are franchises owned by another company and all they play is first-run crap like Pirates, Underdog, and whatever else is going on at the Edwards. Not exactly what Montrose needs and that theatre isn't the right design for the hollywood filler of today. It would function better as a repertoire theatre.

Would it make any sense to re-convert the Bookstop into a movie theater?

Yes and it would be the easiest theatre in town to do this with.

The guy who did the "Astrowhirl" film (I think that's what it's called) is also documenting the distruction of this with his camcorder.

That's David Purdie. He works over at Mandola's and is at the theatre drinking on a typical night. He's putting together another short film on the destruction of the shopping center right now. And if you want to see Astrowhirled, we typically play it before each Rocky and he's almost always there.

And finally, we've got the original prints for most of those old photos of the theatre. If you ever want to see them, they're in storage until re re-paint the entryway. I'm waiting on clearance from some people before we can transfer them to digital format. I've also got some good digital shots that I can add to a separate post if y'all want them.

Edited October 15, 2007 by SirTonk

[tmariar]

Thanks for all the info, SirTonk. I know a number of people who would be interested in the tour once you've got something organized. And I know a lot of people on this forum would be interested in seeing any photos you can post. And if you have any ideas regarding what more people can be doing to help preserve the theater, please let us know.

[Subdude]

Sir Tonk, thanks for the informative post.

[bcnet]

From what I've heard, that has been tried with both theatres and Weingarten won't sell.

It is really hard to believe that a publically traded REIT would not sell a property with a good offer. It is easy to say "they won't sell". I'm sure if someone made an offer for property the Weingarten owned center that gave a better return than the investment they have made and the return they expect/project they would sell. IMO if the people against this redevelopement were serious, it seems like they would make an offer good enough to make a sale happen so they could control the property and do what they want to with it.

[sevfiv]

again with that argument...

it is true that any of "the people" with enough money (i would be curious about the numbers on that) to buy the property from Weingarten haven't stepped up - if any exist - but would they be good retail owners? that's what Weingarten does (and apparently really well).

"the people" just wanted Weingarten to reconsider the redevelopment of this one property of many, many owned.

[KinkaidAlum]

It is really hard to believe that a publically traded REIT would not sell a property with a good offer. It is easy to say "they won't sell". I'm sure if someone made an offer for property the Weingarten owned center that gave a better return than the investment they have made and the return they expect/project they would sell. IMO if the people against this redevelopement were serious, it seems like they would make an offer good enough to make a sale happen so they could control the property and do what they want to with it.

The above also misses the obvious question; Why in the heck would Weingarten sell The River Oaks Theater if their end goal is redevelopment?

In order to make redevelopment work for their entire portfolio on West Gray, they cannot sell off the piece in the middle no matter the offer.

[bcnet]

The above also misses the obvious question; Why in the heck would Weingarten sell The River Oaks Theater if their end goal is redevelopment?

In order to make redevelopment work for their entire portfolio on West Gray, they cannot sell off the piece in the middle no matter the offer.

I have to disagree. This would just be another factor in the purchase price. It would obviously demand a higher price and would most likely have build restrictions to "fit" with the developer's overall plan, but there is a number that Weingarten would definately take for the property. It just happens that due to it being part of a larger parcel, the price would be extremely high versus a similar theater in a stand-alone situation. That is the way the market works.

[SirTonk]

I have to disagree. This would just be another factor in the purchase price. It would obviously demand a higher price and would most likely have build restrictions to "fit" with the developer's overall plan, but there is a number that Weingarten would definately take for the property. It just happens that due to it being part of a larger parcel, the price would be extremely high versus a similar theater in a stand-alone situation. That is the way the market works.

Of course there is a number than they'll sell for, but that number is so high that it's unreasonable. The people wanting to preserve these theatres aren't as interested in buying the entire shopping center and that's the only way Weingarten will sell for an amount of money that someone is willing to pay.

Also, concerning the Book Stop, a friend of mine was managing there for a while and surprised me with the numbers on how well they do there. He said that they're one of the lowest grossing stores in the city and they take in around $5000 a day, while the other Book Stop / B & N stores make well over $15k on a typical day. So B & N has no problem shutting the place down since the new mulit-story location will apparently rake in the cash in their mind. And we get another Starbucks.

[memebag]

And we get another Starbucks.

Starbucks should buy the Alabama strip center, show movies in the theater, put a Starbucks in the theater and turn every other store in the strip center into a Starbucks. I'd go there.

[Subdude]

So what's the story on the new construction? I went by the site, and a small area with a trailer has been fenced off, but almost the entire area that was covered by the demolished building has been paved over and painted to create parking spaces. Are they still intending to build?

[KinkaidAlum]

So what's the story on the new construction? I went by the site, and a small area with a trailer has been fenced off, but almost the entire area that was covered by the demolished building has been paved over and painted to create parking spaces. Are they still intending to build?

Wouldn't that be classic!

Tear down a historic structure only to replace it with surface parking. The spirit of the Shamrock lives on...

[crunchtastic]

Actually there is big news on the River Oaks......in a bid to squeeze the Mandolas out of the Gulf Coast Kitchen space, and give the Nenos/Vincents compound on W. Dallas stronger competition, Tillman Fertitta has acquired all the land and available retail space in the River Oaks shopping center between McDuffie and Shepherd.

Building on the success of his upscale-casual, Mediterranean-inspired La Griglia, he plans to open a new dining concept: a gulf-coast-inspired, outdoor-casual Mediterranean steakhouse concept. Ground level, food-inspired retail and a new coffee-inspired Mediterranean beverage concept bar will provide climate-controlled all- weather seating for guests enjoying drinks before dinner at the new Landry's Las Vegas-Style dining destination: a steakhouse-inspired, Mediterannean-styled raw bar and pizzeria.

OK, that's totally untrue nonsense. But sadly within the realm of possibility..... I was reading Meme's wonderfully snarky post

Starbucks should buy the Alabama strip center, show movies in the theater, put a Starbucks in the theater and turn every other store in the strip center into a Starbucks. I'd go there.

It spoke volumes and made me think of Kemah and our local restaurant godfather.

[memebag]

OK, that's totally untrue nonsense.

I hate you for pulling my chain like that, but then I forgive you for finding the wonder in my snarkiness.

[sidegate]

Actually there is big news on the River Oaks......in a bid to squeeze the Mandolas out of the Gulf Coast Kitchen space, and give the Nenos/Vincents compound on W. Dallas stronger competition, Tillman Fertitta has acquired all the land and available retail space in the River Oaks shopping center between McDuffie and Shepherd.

Building on the success of his upscale-casual, Mediterranean-inspired La Griglia, he plans to open a new dining concept: a gulf-coast-inspired, outdoor-casual Mediterranean steakhouse concept. Ground level, food-inspired retail and a new coffee-inspired Mediterranean beverage concept bar will provide climate-controlled all- weather seating for guests enjoying drinks before dinner at the new Landry's Las Vegas-Style dining destination: a steakhouse-inspired, Mediterannean-styled raw bar and pizzeria.

OK, that's totally untrue nonsense. But sadly within the realm of possibility..... I was reading Meme's wonderfully snarky post

It spoke volumes and made me think of Kemah and our local restaurant godfather.

x10

[Subdude]

I haven't been by West Gray lately. How's this project coming along?