The Driscoll High-Rise & River Oaks Shopping Center Developments

[nmainguy]

There are only two ways to acquire material wealth: 1) earn it, or 2) steal it.

Only 2 ways? What a maroon You are such a little putz, my petite rhinestone.

[TheNiche]

in houston, it is becoming irreplaceable (the architectural style/period)

Of course it is replacable. Of course, the style will look inauthentic unless very high costs are incurred, but then preservation comes at a price too.

weingarten already owns it, for the sake of simplicity

Yes, they own it. That is not in dispute and does not represent a hurdle. At the right price, everything is for sale.

and as far as taking things from society, they haven't yet, but it will occur when the wrecking ball appears - it is a "give" - corporations don't have to make the decision to preserve

They aren't knocking it down for the sake of pissing people off, but so as to provide more functional space to retailers that sell to consumers. It is a prime example of the process of creative destruction whereby the use of finite resources in the form of labor and capital are minimized, that they might go to the highest and best uses.

[musicman]

ugh.

in houston, it is becoming irreplaceable (the architectural style/period)

weingarten already owns it, for the sake of simplicity

and as far as taking things from society, they haven't yet, but it will occur when the wrecking ball appears - it is a "give" - corporations don't have to make the decision to preserve

i am glad that i and others that promote preservation add to your amazement

ch 13 is about to have a story on historical preservation on 6pm news.

EDIT: they interviewed Mike Shapiro from CharBar. basically the city is introducing a program where you will get a tax break if you apply for historical designation status. Mike mentioned that up til now there was really no reason to apply for it because the building has been in his family since the 30's and he sees it remaining in the family.

Edited June 7, 2007 by musicman

[sevfiv]

in houston, it is becoming irreplaceable (the architectural style/period)

i'll amend my previous post to clarify that taken concretely, anything can be replaced with anything

the term irreplaceable is often associated with items that are unique, and not done justice by something newer and similar

like merriam webster kindly illustrates:

: not replaceable <an irreplaceable antique>

Edited June 8, 2007 by sevfiv

[TheNiche]

i'll amend my previous post to clarify that taken concretely, anything can be replaced with anything

the term irreplaceable is often associated with items that are unique, and not done justice by something newer and similar

like merriam webster kindly illustrates:

: not replaceable <an irreplaceable antique>

Taken concretely (i.e. functionally), anything can be replaced with anything. If there are two steel ball bearings of equal dimensions, and one is destroyed or lost, another can be manufactured that will serve the same function with equal performance characteristics.

Taken literally (i.e. physically), nothing can replace anything. If there are two steel ball bearings of equal dimensions, and one is destroyed or lost, its unique arrangement of a discrete quantity of physical matter has been disrupted and cannot be repaired. Even if it were melted down and repoured from the same material, it would be different. Taken to a further extent, even light use of one of the ball bearings would cause it to become worn, altering it from one unique form to a new unique form. This is the state of the physical world: perpetual change. Nothing is preserved; furthermore, attempts at preservation often dramatically speed up the process by which the old state is changed.

[tmariar]

The fact that the Weingarten REIT that owns the property is publicly-traded makes the theaters/shopping center situation slightly more complex, as Weingarten has an obligation is to its shareholders. But (1) that's not the entity's only obligation, and (2) it's unclear to me that its current plans for the property are in the best interest of its shareholders. Determining what will most benefit Weingarten shareholders is not as simple as figuring out how the largest amount of money can be squeezed from those particular parcels of real estate. There are bigger-picture considerations for WRI that include such things as public/community relations, government relations, and brand association - to name a few. If there weren't, you wouldn't see public companies contributing the sums of money they do to charitable organizations - such donations wouldn't make economic sense when looked at purely on a superficial basis.

And that means there are ways that community members can/should influence the future of these properties without having to purchase them. It may sound like whining to some, but the surprisingly sustained public criticism - especially if it continues - will factor into Weingarten's decision-making process.

I don't think that it's unrealistic to believe that Weingarten could end up working with preservationists in this case. I do think that a sufficient amount of community pressure (perhaps combined with minor economic incentives from the city, such as the recently announced tax break) could tip the scales. But I also think that we're not to that point yet - and that Weingarten is waiting to see if the public interest and activism (by Houston standards at least) will die down over time.

Which it may. But it's also possible that the fight to save the buildings will be reinforced as more and more people read things like this thread, learn about the history of the structures, and make the utilitarian comparison of a decrease in Weingarten shareholders' profit margin to the loss of these unique and historically significant structures.

[sevfiv]

fyi via email:

Sarah Gish from Save Our Landmarks writes with this info about an impending ILLEGAL demolition -

There are rumors from very legitimate sources that a section of the River Oaks Shopping Center will be demolished soon, perhaps before Wednesday, when the city

[Dan the Man]

fyi via email:

I have heard the same rumor. However, I also heard that an illegal demolition will result in a 2-year moratorium on re-building on the property, under the new preservation ordinance. Wonder if Weingarten also knows this?

[KinkaidAlum]

I just got to town tonight for the first time since last November. My mother lives right down the street. As of 10:15, it is still standing and there are no construction/destruction vehicles on site. The "pad site' Starbucks was packed too, but sadly, the rest of that center, including the 2 story building, are dark. It is clearly a matter of when as the if part has sailed.

[sevfiv]

another email update, from Save Our Landmarks:

We are pleased to report that in spite of a serious rumor that Weingarten Realty Investments (WRI) was going to begin illegal demolition of the north curve of the River Oaks Shopping Center, there will be none. WRI has applied for a Certificate of Appropriation for that portion which is the first step in obtaining a demolition permit (see plans released by WRI that pertain to this demolition and re-building of the historic curve) and now has to wait until August 8 to demolish the historic curve. Demolishing this curve and building a new one is akin to taking an original door off a historic home and replacing it with a new one - it denigrates the historical value of the entire property.

We have been meeting with WRI representatives and with community leaders to find a solution to save the Alabama and River Oaks Theatre sites. We have supplied them with alternate architectural renderings that would keep the curve from being demolished, we have encouraged them to become "Adaptive Re-Use" leaders in the building community, and we have told them we would wholeheartedly support the River Oaks Shopping Center continuing as a unique center with one-of-a-kind stores, many of which are run by local business owners. This is a great opportunity for WRI, one of the largest real estate investment trust companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange, to be a leader using this shopping center as an example. This shopping center is only one of approximately 325 retail properties owned by WRI, but is a jewel in their portfolio that is part of the growth of their company that began in Houston with Joe Weingarten and is still headquartered here.

Here is some action that you can take now and in the coming days to help our cause:

Attend public hearings that include consideration of designating both historic sites as landmarks: The first one is run by the Houston Archaeological and Historical Commission this Wednesday, June 13, 3pm at the City Hall Annex at 900 Bagby Street and the next one is run by the Planning Commission on Thursday, June 21, 2:30pm at the City Hall Annex. We would like to have people there in support of designating these two sites as historic landmarks.

Write WRI and Barnes and Noble as suggested on our website at www.saveourlandmarks.org.

Stay tuned to media and our emails about any news or help we or other preservation groups need with regards to this process.

Encourage your friends to sign on to our email list.

Thank you for your help in Saving Our Landmarks.

Edited June 13, 2007 by sevfiv

[sevfiv]

i unfortunately haven't had any time to devote to this lately, but this was given at the Three Brothers Bakery closing a little while back:

anyone keep up with replatting requests?

Edited June 15, 2007 by sevfiv

[Dan the Man]

anyone keep up with replatting requests?

Is replatting necessary in this case? I think the shopping center sits on a contiguous parcel, and Weingarten owns all of it.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Dan the Man

[sevfiv]

Is replatting necessary in this case? I think the shopping center sits on a contiguous parcel, and Weingarten owns all of it.

i don't know how that works -

but the gentleman who handed me the letter seemed to think a replat was necessary

Edited June 15, 2007 by sevfiv

[musicman]

Is replatting necessary in this case? I think the shopping center sits on a contiguous parcel, and Weingarten owns all of it.

a replatting would depend on how it is originally platted. in the older days setbacks were defined in the original plat. in order to change this, they'd have to submit a plan to change to the planning department, which then requires the owner to erect a sign/notice. AND they'll have to contact property owners within 200' i believe. many times that is just a few property owners.

[musicman]

The Houston Planning Commission recommended Thursday that two iconic shopping centers be designated as landmarks, making them eligible for tax breaks intended to discourage their expected demolition.

The commission delayed a decision for two weeks on another historic preservation proposal: the creation of a protected district that would forbid demolition of historic houses in the Old Sixth Ward west of downtown.

The landmark designations, if approved by the City Council, will apply to the Alabama Shopping Center in the 2900 block of South Shepherd

Edited June 22, 2007 by musicman

[EatSleepMOD]

June 22, 2007, 8:02AM

Plan offered to save 2 city icons

Panel suggests listing endangered River Oaks and Alabama sites as landmarks

By MIKE SNYDER

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4911051.html

I am a fool for thinking that Weingarten will take this into consideration, but I can still hope so.

It would just be disgusting and sick if they tore down these landmarks or OSW, etc...

[ArchitecturalPRGirl]

June 22, 2007, 8:02AM

Plan offered to save 2 city icons

Panel suggests listing endangered River Oaks and Alabama sites as landmarks

By MIKE SNYDER

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4911051.html

I am a fool for thinking that Weingarten will take this into consideration, but I can still hope so.

It would just be disgusting and sick if they tore down these landmarks or OSW, etc...

I hope if the landmark proposal actually passes it will help save them, but even then it's not guaranteed. The 6th ward holds so much history as well.

[EatSleepMOD]

I know!!! Gosh, what is wrong with these people! If they tear down the landmarks, I vow to not ever do business

or frequent any part of the new development. I can't even believe we have to discuss these issues, it should not BE an issue.

Ok...I am off the soapbox now

[TxDave]

This sounds like great news, especially for the Alabama.

I was under the impression that parts of the River Oaks Center (black-eyed pea section) were already demolished.

These historical buildings help define an area - new development should be designed around them (within limits, of course).

Any new development around these centers should focus on highlighting and building around what is there, rather than replacing it.

[Subdude]

"Even though this doesn't ensure that the buildings will be preserved, it does send a message that this city really cares about its history and the built environment," said Councilman Peter Brown.

full article

that means a lot to us Peter.

is right. Letting the buildings be demolished sends an even stronger message, Peter.

[gonzo1976]

is right. Letting the buildings be demolished sends an even stronger message, Peter.

I drove by the area earlier tonight (Saturday, June 30) and noticed a work trailer and some plastic construction fencing behind Black Eyed Pea. No heavy equipment yet.

[Disastro]

I know!!! Gosh, what is wrong with these people! If they tear down the landmarks, I vow to not ever do business

or frequent any part of the new development. I can't even believe we have to discuss these issues, it should not BE an issue.

Ok...I am off the soapbox now

I thought it was a travesty when they turned the Alabama into a Book Stop. The Alabama was, in my opinion, one of the greatest theaters in Houston.

[Earlydays]

I thought it was a travesty when they turned the Alabama into a Book Stop. The Alabama was, in my opinion, one of the greatest theaters in Houston.

The Alabama was a GREAT theater......I saw the "Sound of Music" there, it played there for over a year!

[Earlydays]

I thought it was a travesty when they turned the Alabama into a Book Stop. The Alabama was, in my opinion, one of the greatest theaters in Houston.

The Alabama was a GREAT theater......I saw the "Sound of Music" there, it played there for over a year!

[Trae]

Why does Houston hate history so much?

[Mister X]

There's not enough profit in it.

Edited July 7, 2007 by Mister X

[TheNiche]

Why does Houston hate history so much?

It has nothing to do with any form of "hate". If anything, it's all about love, or rather, the greatest love.

[Native Montrosian]

I notice that Weingarten's River Oaks Shopping Center website no longer waxes poetical about the historical aspect of the center - wish I'd thought to print out the old verbage while it was still up there.

[sevfiv]

I notice that Weingarten's River Oaks Shopping Center website no longer waxes poetical about the historical aspect of the center - wish I'd thought to print out the old verbage while it was still up there.

i made sure to save a copy of it - now just to find it...

[sevfiv]

i made sure to save a copy of it - now just to find it...

the internet archive to the rescue (i just grabbed one from 2006):

http://web.archive.org/web/20060202021610/...aboutcenter.htm

Aside from being one of Houston's premiere shopping, dining and entertainment experiences, River Oaks Shopping Center is also a historical landmark!

River Oaks Shopping Center is the oldest shopping center in Texas and the second oldest shopping center in the nation (Country Club Plaza in Kansas City, Missouri is the nation's oldest).

Hugh Potter, the center's designer, began building River Oaks Shopping Center in 1937.

River Oaks Shopping Center is one of Houston's premier examples of Modern architectural design. When you visit, take notice of its pair of curved sections facing Shepherd Drive, followed by the long horizontal units on either side of West Gray. These features are representative of typical Modern design. In addition, many classic '30's and '40's motifs and materials- rounded corners, "porthole" windows and light fixtures, black glass and stucco- can also be seen among the center's Modern design details.