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Guest danax
Funny thing is, cities all over America are finding that historical preservation, smart growth, mixed-use, and green buildings can be wildly popular and wildly PROFITABLE.

Unfortunately, by the time Houston developers pick up on this trend, there will be nothing left to convert.

True. Even radical leftist ideas like anti-sprawl policies can result in beauty and profit, it just changes how it looks. Portland is a good example of that (I've heard and read, never been there though).

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True. Even radical leftist ideas like anti-sprawl policies can result in beauty and profit, it just changes how it looks. Portland is a good example of that (I've heard and read, never been there though).

Portland is an anomaly. They have an Urban Growth Boundary that is enforced at a regional level by the state (and it'll never happen in Texas). Houston, on the other hand, must compete in the immediate present with its suburban cities and unincorporated lands. If Houston tried to force a Portland-like vision, developers would just flee to the lower-cost suburbs.

Is it profitable? Of course. Costs just get passed on to the consumer.

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If Houston tried to force a Portland-like vision, developers would just flee to the lower-cost suburbs.

You have nothing to base that on. Just your typical B.S. Why are we not surprised?

Stay on the topic. This is about the destruction of the ROT-not some mythical fantasy that you seem hell-bent on propagating.

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There are shacks in this town that have been around just as long as The River Oaks, where do you draw that line at "Historical Significance"? Just because it looks good to you, doesn't mean it looks good to the owner. Do these owners just keep throwing good money after bad so that the minority can be happy, or should the minority get their own damn money together and purchase these "landmarks" from the owners, then they can do what they damn well please with the property? If the owner of said property wants to risk losing a few perspective customers and is willing to run the "Gambit of Boos" thrown onto them, then so be it.

Don't try to tell me that I don't know about historical significance either. I have saved two classic cars from eminent destruction. I spent my own money to do it. It comes down to how much is it really worth to you to save it. Don't throw it on the owner to keep it, if he thinks he can make better use of it. That is like someone telling you to go wash your car because it is an eyesore to the rest of the people who keep clean cars in the driveways down the block, or that you can't paint your house a certain color because turquoise and plum crazy purple, just wouldn't look good for the neighborhood. It is private property in the public eye, but it is yours to do as you please.

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Portland is an anomaly. They have an Urban Growth Boundary

That would cause the land values to skyrocket within the boundary.

It would be a blessing for those that already own land and a disaster for those trying to buy affordable housing.

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You have nothing to base that on. Just your typical B.S. Why are we not surprised?

Stay on the topic. This is about the destruction of the ROT-not some mythical fantasy that you seem hell-bent on propagating.

Uh huh. If you'd like to actually back up your counterargument with...I don't know...maybe an ARGUMENT, feel free to create another thread.

That would cause the land values to skyrocket within the boundary.

It would be a blessing for those that already own land and a disaster for those trying to buy affordable housing.

You got that right. Renters' housing prices would also go up.

Just another policy that disproportionately hurts the poor and lower-middle class...

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Don't throw it on the owner to keep it, if he thinks he can make better use of it. That is like someone telling you to go wash your car because it is an eyesore to the rest of the people who keep clean cars in the driveways down the block, or that you can't paint your house a certain color because turquoise and plum crazy purple, just wouldn't look good for the neighborhood. It is private property in the public eye, but it is yours to do as you please.

Every master planned community has these very same rules. Interestingly, deed restrictions that force one to mow their grass, only use certain paint, and park cars off the street are lauded as desirable attributes of the neighborhood. But, regardless of whether you think they help property values, they are there, and you may NOT do as you please with your private property.

There are some posters here who attempt to say that saving this one building, and a few others like it, will run developers out of town. Aside from the fact that we WANT those developers to leave, the poster misses the point. Land closer to town is already much more expensive than land in the suburbs. Additionally, Houston is not an old city. There are very few iconic or historical buildings here. In spite of protestations to the contrary, a historical protection ordinance, carefully crafted, will not hurt values or developers. The city may even add financial incentives for restoring the old buildings ina consistent manner.

Niche can't stand this thought, but in a civil society, there ARE restrictions. And, it IS proper to put restrictions on development. Just because the landowner thinks he can make a lot of money putting a 30 story tower at the end of a one-way street, for example, doesn't mean it should be allowed. While it would be preferable that developers be civic-minded, and not merely profit at the expense of the community, Niche's own remarks suggest why that is a pipe dream. The fabric of the community does not enter into his calculations. I for one, think that reasonable restrictions are preferable.

Restrictions, by nature, cause prices to rise. Sometimes, they rise because the area becomes more desirable, sometimes because it reduces the number of uses for the property. But, rising prices do not run developers off. River Oaks has no shortage of home builders. And, the restrictions will not cause prices to rise uniformly. A historic designation on the River Oaks shopping center will have no effect on property more than a few blocks away. And, that property was already unaffordable to low income residents. That argument is a red herring.

So, this argument really comes down to this. Are reasonable restrictions on the destruction of historic buildings a good thing? The answer is yes, for everyone. Developers who can design and build within the context of the neighborhood are assured that their investment will not deteriorate when the selfish landowner next door destroys a historic building. The selfish landowner has two options...rehab the building, possibly with city assistance, or sell at a higher price, since the neighborhood is now more valuable. His third option, bulldozing the property, is the only one off the table. Niche may call it thievery. I call it good city planning. And sometimes the livability of a community takes preferance over blind greed.

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Red hit on exactly what I was getting at, and I set it up so someone else would point it out. PROPERTY VALUES, I know you can't just paint your house what you want. HOAs that I have had the displeasure to know are adamant about enforcing the rules. It is my belief that although the theater's destruction would be a travesty for selfish reasons, I think Weingarten has every right to make what he feels is the best use of HIS property, where there are no HOA restrictions, or restrictions on building such a highrise if it is allowed. Also, in building such a highrise, I would be willing to wager that property values would go up in an already skyrocketing market.

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Red hit on exactly what I was getting at, and I set it up so someone else would point it out. PROPERTY VALUES, I know you can't just paint your house what you want. HOAs that I have had the displeasure to know are adamant about enforcing the rules. It is my belief that although the theater's destruction would be a travesty for selfish reasons, I think Weingarten has every right to make what he feels is the best use of HIS property, where there are no HOA restrictions, or restrictions on building such a highrise if it is allowed. Also, in building such a highrise, I would be willing to wager that property values would go up in an already skyrocketing market.

As much as I hate to say this, but I think it's time for zoning in Houston. Personally, I want ROT to survive, but the rest of the center can go away as far as I'm concerned as long as the new development allows for the same shopping experience (or perhaps better!).

Designate some commercial areas along with some high density areas and allow the existing structures to be "grandfathered" in and then once those buildings reaches the end of their useful lives, then something new can develop that can match the rest of the area.

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As much as I hate to say this, but I think it's time for zoning in Houston. Personally, I want ROT to survive, but the rest of the center can go away as far as I'm concerned as long as the new development allows for the same shopping experience (or perhaps better!).

Designate some commercial areas along with some high density areas and allow the existing structures to be "grandfathered" in and then once those buildings reaches the end of their useful lives, then something new can develop that can match the rest of the area.

I like zoning too but the developers are too against it and have the bucks to back it up. Zoning in this instance wouldn't save the building but would only designate what could be built there. For historical structures, an ordinance would have to be developed, however again, the developers would feel as if they are too restricted and would fight this on the grounds that it would make new structures cost more. They definitely would say that it hinders development. The City is basically remaining neutral because with each permit taken out, the money is just rolling in. Anything that prevents money from coming it would be a hinderance.

Edited by musicman
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As much as I hate to say this, but I think it's time for zoning in Houston. Personally, I want ROT to survive, but the rest of the center can go away as far as I'm concerned as long as the new development allows for the same shopping experience (or perhaps better!).

Designate some commercial areas along with some high density areas and allow the existing structures to be "grandfathered" in and then once those buildings reaches the end of their useful lives, then something new can develop that can match the rest of the area.

Ricco, I have thought the same thing since the 90's and we should model it after Dallas the way it has grown with it's zoning back in the 90's is great.

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ugh...this is starting to sound like the tired metrorail debates <_<

as far as:

If they are responsible for providing us with structures of 'significance', is it not us that owe them a debt of gratitude? Should they not receive at least an iota of respect?

yes, unless they tear down the structures, which they are obviously planning to do. the "debt of gratitude" is the patronization of the tenants, filling their pockets with rent money.

in the ONE statement that was released, it says:

Weingarten Realty Investors has owned the River Oaks Shopping Center since 1971. We have made a significant investment in developing, managing and maintaining this valuable property to be an asset to our community. As a responsible public company with roots in, and a commitment to Houston, we will continue to manage this asset with great care, taking into account its history and its future.

now it's all about the interpretation of what "managing this asset with great care" actually means to them.

it is CLEAR that many houstonians take it to mean not demolishing the structures.

since weingarten has a "commitment to Houston" (and i would hope Houstonians, too), they might want to consider taking heed of the great opposition.

Edited by sevfiv
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In the spirit of preservation, I'm posting an interesting article from CNN.com explaining how South Beach, Florida (a collection of Art Deco buildings) came to be the hot property it now is.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TRAVEL/DESTINATION...e.ap/index.html

Key to this is the fact that the whole area was put on the National Register of Historic Places early on, and subsquently couldn't be altered OR DEMOLISHED. And yet, the properties are worth a fortune now.

Why can't this be done with the River Oaks Center? To me there is no reason it couldn't happen here, as well.

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Key to this is the fact that the whole area was put on the National Register of Historic Places early on, and subsquently couldn't be altered OR DEMOLISHED. And yet, the properties are worth a fortune now.

Why can't this be done with the River Oaks Center? To me there is no reason it couldn't happen here, as well.

it is definitely eligible for register status - anyone can prepare the application, and then it has to be nominated by the state historic preservation officer (maybe city, too?).

i'm on it :)

and this picture was in the bob bailey archives:

link to folder

23w5zro.jpg

Edited by sevfiv
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should our battle cry be "REMEMBER THE BELLAIRE!!!"? guess that's too obscure for most.

I know where that is - it's in West U across Bellaire Boulevard. I remember when it was a Dicovery Zone. At least the movie spire is still here :)

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it is definitely eligible for register status - anyone can prepare the application, and then it has to be nominated by the state historic preservation officer (maybe city, too?).

i'm on it :)

I'm afraid that in Houston, even being in the National Register won't save a building from demolition. Miami must have that provision in its city preservation laws. We don't.

Our most stringent protection is for buildings that the owners themselves have designated "protected." But unless an owner chooses to file that city paperwork, even a landmark building can be razed.

Even if you're in one of the city historic districts, even if your building is on the National Register, even if the city historic and archeological commission rejects your plans -- if you want to demolish a building, you'll face at most a 90-day waiting period.

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I'm afraid that in Houston, even being in the National Register won't save a building from demolition. Miami must have that provision in its city preservation laws. We don't.

Our most stringent protection is for buildings that the owners themselves have designated "protected." But unless an owner chooses to file that city paperwork, even a landmark building can be razed.

Even if you're in one of the city historic districts, even if your building is on the National Register, even if the city historic and archeological commission rejects your plans -- if you want to demolish a building, you'll face at most a 90-day waiting period.

oh yes, i remember maria isabel ( <_< )

even fully knowing that the application wouldn't go through, a few of us were thinking that the state preservation officer presenting the option to weingarten, and then weingarten saying something like "no, we don't feel it's worthy to do this" would help expose their business philosophy in a more clear and direct fashion. sure, they may not say that, but it would be interesting to see what they would put out there...

the amount of work to be done for a nomination isn't too overbearing (once it gets nominated, from experience, the workload expands significantly).

btw - love the elements yarn car! :)

Edited by sevfiv
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i received this today. the COH emblems and the mayor's signature stamp didn't copy and i don't feel like uploading the pictures to a hosting site this AM.

CITY OF HOUSTON

Bill White

Mayor

P.O. Box 1562

Houston, Texas 77251-1562

Telephone

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d'oh - i just posted that in it's own thread, with excerpts from the WSJ

okay fixed...

Preservationists, REIT Tussle

Over Fate of Houston Landmark

By THADDEUS HERRICK

August 16, 2006; Page B6

HOUSTON -- In a backlash to the go-go growth that has long persisted in this sprawling city, a fight to preserve three 1930s-era landmarks is gaining support.

The latest battle pits preservationists against Houston-based Weingarten Realty Investors Inc., among the nation's largest real-estate-investment trusts. Tenants at Weingarten's 1937 River Oaks shopping center say company officials have revealed plans to demolish at least some of the mall and the 1939 River Oaks Theater in favor of a Barnes & Noble Inc. bookstore, among other buildings. Preservationists fear a new Barnes & Noble store also would put at risk the nearby 1939 Alabama Theater, a Weingarten property that previously was converted into a Bookstop store, Barnes & Noble's regional chain of smaller, mall-based bookstores.

...

David Deason, vice president for development at Barnes & Noble, said the New York-based company intends to close the Bookstop in favor of a "state of the art" facility. But Mr. Deason said the fate of the landmarks is in the hands of Weingarten.

can't link to the article...argh

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BREAKING NEWS FROM GHPA: :(

Barnes & Noble confirms plans to close Alabama Theater/Bookstop

Barnes & Noble has confirmed the company intends to close Houston’s Alabama Theater/Bookstop in favor of a “state of the art” facility.

Because the Alabama Bookstop was such a decrepit place to buy books anyway. <_<

Unless I missed it, I didn't see a timetable for all of this.

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found this on the internet movie database today.

Massive Support in Houston To Preserve Oldest Movie Theater

Twenty thousand Houston residents have signed a petition aimed at preventing their city's oldest film venue, the River Oaks Theater, from being demolished by developers, the Wall Street Journal reported today (Wednesday). The petition drive was begun after it was reported that Weingarten Realty Investors Inc. planned to tear down the 1939 theater, currently operated by Landmark Theaters, and replace it with a Barnes & Noble bookstore. The plans are part of a larger development proposal, the WSJ report indicated. "It's a developer's town," David Bush, spokesman for the Greater Houston Preservation Alliance, told the Journal. "But the opposition is out in front on this issue."

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Barnes and Noble will be in a pickle - they are messing with the wrong people!

If Lamar didn't have uniforms, I would encourage kids going to that school to wear T-shirts in support of the theatre and bookstore.

In fact, the people who created the uniform policy should realize that this hurts community efforts (since wearing T-shirts supporting movements in a large school spreads word about the movement really, really quickly)

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I just received this by way of a screenwriter friend of mine (not sure who wrote it):

"Houston Film Industry Alert

Distressing news! It is confirmed that the historical Alabama Theater/Bookstop will close.

Ironically, the new location for the bookstore will be in the historical River Oaks Center

which will have buildings demolished to make way. A double whammy for preservationists

of the two "last picture shows" in Houston.

What will happen to this bookstore's authentic movie theater interior that was so carefully

preserved back when it was transformed into the Bookstop? The Houston film community

needs a theater for our films, film festivals, dailies, workshops, visiting filmmakers/

speakers, and related events. Other theaters are too expensive to rent. The old Alabama/

Bookstop could be the perfect venue and gathering spot for filmmakers and film lovers.

Imagine a coffee house with short films screening. Could even be the spot for my dream, a

Reel Stars of Texas Museum. Won't someone out there help save this gem from the

wrecking ball?

Please read the following article from the Greater Houston Preservation Alliance and pass it

onl

Buy a SAVE THIS LANDMARK tee-shirt on the WIFT website, www.wift-houston.org. It's

only $13.99 (our cost) and helps to advertise this movement.

Women In Film & Television/Houston's president and vice president will be meeting with

Sarah Gish (former Houston Landmark Theaters manager), City Council Member Michael

Berry, the Greater Houston Preservation Alliance, and others next week, hoping to

convince City Council that there are some things more important to a community than

money. You know, like history?

Barnes & Noble confirms plans to close

Alabama Theater/Bookstop

Barnes & Noble has confirmed the company intends to close Houston's Alabama Theater/

Bookstop in favor of a "state of the art" facility. The confirmation came in an article by

Thaddeus Herrick in today's Wall Street Journal. A spokesperson for Weingarten Realty,

which owns the Alabama, told the Journal the future of the Alabama Theater (1939) is a

"challenging situation."

According to tenants of the River Oaks Shopping Center (1937), Weingarten Realty plans to

demolish the portion of the shopping center on the northeast corner of Shepherd and West

Gray to construct a three-story building for the new Barnes & Noble store. The bookseller

says the fate of the architectural landmarks is up to Weingarten Realty.

In recent days, the future of the River Oaks Center, River Oaks Theater and Alabama

Theater has attracted national media attention. Yesterday, the National Trust for Historic

Preservation's online magazine posted a feature that includes the online petition begun by

Greater Houston Preservation Alliance (GHPA) volunteer Jim Parsons. The petition currently

contains more than 22,000 signatures. The New York Times published an article about

public reaction to the proposed projects on Saturday.

GHPA members are encouraged to write Weingarten Realty and Barnes & Noble regarding

the proposed projects and copy the letters to Houston's elected officials. Names and

addresses are on the GHPA Web site.

Your membership in GHPA allows our staff to advocate for historic preservation and

influence public opinion. Please forward this e-mail to interested friends, family and

colleagues, and ask them to support this effort by becoming members of GHPA.

Thank you for your continuing support of Greater Houston Preservation Alliance and its

efforts to preserve Houston's irreplaceable historic resources.

Greater Houston Preservation Alliance

712 Main Street, Suite 110 Houston, Texas 77002"

Maybe the council meeting will bring about some positive developments toward saving these buildings.

Edited by GoAtomic
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