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Dallas - Houston HSR Station


cspwal

Where do you want the Texas Central Station be?  

118 members have voted

  1. 1. Where should the station be?

    • Downtown
      86
    • NW Mall site
      27
    • Near IAH
      1
    • South Houston location
      0
    • Out west along 99/beltway 8/highway 6
      1
    • Somewhere else...
      3


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To office buildings.  The majority of the use is going to be business travel replacing business travel currently using Hobby airport.   The tourism traffic is probably also mostly going to be not travelers looking for hotels but people visiting other people that they know who live in the opposite metro.

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Why has this turned into a Downtown v. Uptown topic? Both of them have strengths (Uptown with high-end shopping and restaurants, Downtown with bars and performance entertainment) and both have weaknesses. Neither one is inherently better. It's all a matter of opinion, and one opinion generally isn't more correct than another. It's just an opinion.

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Why has this turned into a Downtown v. Uptown topic? Both of them have strengths (Uptown with high-end shopping and restaurants, Downtown with bars and performance entertainment) and both have weaknesses. Neither one is inherently better. It's all a matter of opinion, and one opinion generally isn't more correct than another. It's just an opinion.

 

Myopia regarding Downtown?

 

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Why has this turned into a Downtown v. Uptown topic? 

 

It's hasn't. Or at least I agree that it shouldn't have.

Since there is a declared preference by Texas Central for a station at/near NW Transit Center, there (probably) will be a connection to Uptown via the BRT. So that connection is done - in theory at least.

Is this sufficient? I think not. There needs to be an efficient high volume link to the rail system which is centered downtown. The arguments have been about whether or not the Galleria area is suitable as the primary endpoint for a rail line that is designed to bring large volumes of people into town. I've outlined my opinions as to why I believe it would be less than ideal.

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Washington Ave. definitely needs work. As popular as it's become as a club scene, it's a nightmare for pedestrians. Some urban design work that reduces the number of cars and allows some urbanity to flourish would be very welcome in my opinion. Nothing changes without some pain but the results can be wonderful. Denser housing is going to happen, if we can simultaneously promote the idea of living without a car and using transit and bicycles, at least the place won't be stacked up with cars both moving and parked. I think the Light Rail contributes positively to that vision.

I love the vision.. I agree it would make for a pedestrian paradise, and I'm normally all for rail, but Washington Ave is the only through corridor between Memorial Drive and i10. Thats the width of almost a mile. If you look at downtown/the streets stretching through downtown/midtown you'll see that there are at least 4 other 3-4 lane streets going in either direction within a few blocks that you have the option of taking instead of having to traverse that 2 lane span of Main St. Washington Ave is only 4 lanes wide, and they can get pretty narrow with no room for expansion. If we could figure out a way that to re-route the traffic to other roads then i agree Washington Ave makes the most sense for a straight shot from downtown to the area of the TCR station, and rail would have all sorts of additional benefits for pedestrians/urbanization. I envisioned a downtown connector being commuter esque rail though. Light rail along Washington Ave would be painfully slow after hopping off the HSR train.

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I love the vision.. I agree it would make for a pedestrian paradise, and I'm normally all for rail, but Washington Ave is the only through corridor between Memorial Drive and i10. Thats the width of almost a mile. If you look at downtown/the streets stretching through downtown/midtown you'll see that there are at least 4 other 3-4 lane streets going in either direction within a few blocks that you have the option of taking instead of having to traverse that 2 lane span of Main St. Washington Ave is only 4 lanes wide, and they can get pretty narrow with no room for expansion. If we could figure out a way that to re-route the traffic to other roads then i agree Washington Ave makes the most sense for a straight shot from downtown to the area of the TCR station, and rail would have all sorts of additional benefits for pedestrians/urbanization. I envisioned a downtown connector being commuter esque rail though. Light rail along Washington Ave would be painfully slow after hopping off the HSR train.

 

So a commuter line along the tracks North of Center St? That could be interesting. I'm not sure I see how that serves the needs of the local neighborhoods of the future if there aren't many places to get on board. I guess by Commuter esque you mean some sort of hybrid.

Also, the speed into downtown doesn't seem all that slow if I consider the length of time on the Red Line between say Hermann Park and Downtown. There are quite a few stops but they don't last very long. Relative to 200 mph? Well yeah.

I need to study the map with more care in order to understand the obstacles and possible routes you're suggesting, the removal of the Pierce elevated opens up a wealth of opportunity at the East end of the route but navigating through the Rice Military area and points further along the way needs a lot of study.

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So a commuter line along the tracks North of Center St? That could be interesting. I'm not sure I see how that serves the needs of the local neighborhoods of the future if there aren't many places to get on board. I guess by Commuter esque you mean some sort of hybrid.

Also, the speed into downtown doesn't seem all that slow if I consider the length of time on the Red Line between say Hermann Park and Downtown. There are quite a few stops but they don't last very long. Relative to 200 mph? Well yeah.

I need to study the map with more care in order to understand the obstacles and possible routes you're suggesting, the removal of the Pierce elevated opens up a wealth of opportunity at the East end of the route but navigating through the Rice Military area and points further along the way needs a lot of study.

Not necessarily commuter along the tracks north of Center St, though if there were room that corridor would make the most sense. Like you said, commuter rail doesn't really serve the local neighborhoods, it was more a quick transit option from the HSR station into downtown for the business travelers and those connecting into the rest of our rail system. Isn't Northwest TC like 5 miles from downtown? Thats about 20 minutes by rail. If you were on the HSR you would be almost 1/3rd the way to Dallas already. It just seems kind of archaic to get off of a 200mph HSR train to hop onto a glorified streetcar that travels around 15mph to take you the last 5 miles into downtown. Commuter rail alongside i10 (isn't that stretch up for reconstruction in the future?) from 610 to downtown seems like it might be the easiest to implement, if they can work with TxDot..?

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Personally I love the Galleria but it definitely is not what it once was. I've been witness to it's growth since it opened.

It is curious that Saks is expanding - I presume that their new store will be even more vacuous than their present one. Of course in the cannibalistic business of retail it helps a lot that The Galleria is the biggest cannibal in town but I don't view that as evidence that it's thriving. I've noticed that every time a new retailer is heralded with blaring trumpets, another former retailer is slinking out the back door with very little fanfare. So it may be hard to see the evidence but it's nearly impossible if you're not observant. [/quoteI

The fact that there are stores coming to replace those slinking out the back door is evidence, actually proof, that the Galleria is indeed thriving. At mall that are not thriving, stores close and spaces remain empempty in almost all cases of stores closing at the Galleria, it has everything to do with the failure of the store chain,and nothing to do with whether the Galleria is thriving. How is the Galleria not what it once was? It is bigger than ever, offers more choices than ever (unless you want to watch a movie) and probably dominates Houston retail more than ever.

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Not sarcastic at all, just reporting the content of conversations I had with people from other states who were here for the convention. I asked them how they liked Houston and they mostly replied that it was ok, but kind of dull. The event was at the Hyatt Regency. Knowing many of them, I know they would have been much happier to spend their minimal free time between meetings at the Galleria and in that area, as there are more options available.

Trying to connect this with reality. How are there more options available in the Galleria than downtown.?

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Trying to connect this with reality. How are there more options available in the Galleria than downtown.?

 

There are upwards of 400 stores and 50 restaurants at the Galleria, plus various other options nearby. As hard as it may be to believe, lots of folks prefer to wander around a brightly lit, indoor, mall with lots of shopping, eating, and people watching options than dodging panhandlers on the not so brightly lit streets Downtown. My colleagues who come here from South America and Asia have little interest in watching baseball or basketball, or going to bars, as those activities aren't reimbursed by the company. They do love to shop, often arriving with a half full suitcase, and departing with 2 nearly overweight ones. This is because equivalent shopping at home is far more expensive for them. On weekends, they generally head to the outlet mall in Cypress.

 

They will sometimes attend Dynamo games, since they love soccer.

 

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I'm pretty sure the proposed HSR line is coming from Dallas, not Asia or South America. And last I checked Dallas has a Galleria of their own, along with plenty of other shopping that is just as good as Houstons scene. So tell me again why someone would come from Dallas to Houston to go to theGalleria..?

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Let me get this out there first -- I have no f'ing idea why anyone would build a rail line between Dallas and Houston. There are highways and airlines already, and there is NO way that there are enough people who would use such a line instead to make it profitable. It's likely a big boondoggle.

 

19514 -- places in the Galleria stay open past 3 pm

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There are upwards of 400 stores and 50 restaurants at the Galleria, plus various other options nearby. As hard as it may be to believe, lots of folks prefer to wander around a brightly lit, indoor, mall with lots of shopping, eating, and people watching options than dodging panhandlers on the not so brightly lit streets Downtown. My colleagues who come here from South America and Asia have little interest in watching baseball or basketball, or going to bars, as those activities aren't reimbursed by the company. They do love to shop, often arriving with a half full suitcase, and departing with 2 nearly overweight ones. This is because equivalent shopping at home is far more expensive for them. On weekends, they generally head to the outlet mall in Cypress.

They will sometimes attend Dynamo games, since they love soccer.

So, again, the many options in the Galleria area are 1) shopping and 2) restaurants. Pretty much what I thought. That may indeed be all that SOME people are interested in, but it is foolishness to pretend that is the case for ALL people, and utter ignorance, to put it nicely, to pretend that in any way means there are more options of things to do in the Galleria than downtown. That is demonstrably not true.

To review, options downtown include:

1) restaurants (close to 100, not counting those in the tunnels or various food courts)

2) MLB

3) professional theater

4) parks

5) library

6) bars/clubs

7) Symphony

8) ballet

9) opera

10) NBA

11) MLS

12) convention center

almost forgot

13) movie theaters

14)bowling

15)live music venues

Plus very easy rail/cab/car access to the entire theater district, medical center, and NRG Park.

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Let me get this out there first -- I have no f'ing idea why anyone would build a rail line between Dallas and Houston. There are highways and airlines already, and there is NO way that there are enough people who would use such a line instead to make it profitable. It's likely a big boondoggle.

19514 -- places in the Galleria stay open past 3 pm

a

Some day, you really should visit downtown Houston.

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I get it 19514. I have spent plenty of time in downtown. I don't do bars, I'm not a baseball or basketball fan, and I'm not much on theater. Dynamo stadium sucks.

 

People like different things. I am simply reporting what I was told by a sample of out-of-towners who had a convention downtown.

 

If it's so precious for you to see downtown as the only rightful area of focus, rock on with your bad self. Have a good time. Knock yourself out. There's so much to do down there, I don't see how you have time to even post on message boards :lol:

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Retail and dining are lacking downtown. The tunnels amount to fast food fare and aren't open on weekdays after 3 or on weekends.

No one would ever suggest retail downtown is not lacking. But dining? The days of dining lacking downtown are long past. There are our probably as many restaurants (open after 3:00) downtown as there are in the Galleria area.

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I get it 19514. I have spent plenty of time in downtown. I don't do bars, I'm not a baseball or basketball fan, and I'm not much on theater. Dynamo stadium sucks.

People like different things. I am simply reporting what I was told by a sample of out-of-towners who had a convention downtown.

If it's so precious for you to see downtown as the only rightful area of focus, rock on with your bad self. Have a good time. Knock yourself out. There's so much to do down there, I don't see how you have time to even post on message boards :lol:

ROFL. You obviously DON'T get it. If you'd paid the least bit of attention, you'd have noticed I've been calling out delusions on both sides of this silly argument. But I guess for some it's more fun to have a dramatic melt-down than to be bothered with silly things like facts or reality.

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ROTFLMAO at you, 19514. You made a snarky and uninformed remark about me really needing to visit downtown Houston. I pointed out the error of your ways.

 

We shouldn't really be sidetracking this thread with our petty back-and-forths, so I will leave it at this.

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If anything, this Shelbyville vs. Springfield ranting points out that having a station that is more or less convenient to both is a sensible idea.  

 

The trick is going to be getting Metro or some other entity to pony up the infrastructure to get from the station to the two centers of commerce and entertainment.

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ROTFLMAO at you, 19514. You made a snarky and uninformed remark about me really needing to visit downtown Houston. I pointed out the error of your ways.

We shouldn't really be sidetracking this thread with our petty back-and-forths, so I will leave it at this.

Uninformed? If you think there is nothing downtown open after 3pm, it is you who is uninformed.

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There are upwards of 400 stores and 50 restaurants at the Galleria, plus various other options nearby. As hard as it may be to believe, lots of folks prefer to wander around a brightly lit, indoor, mall with lots of shopping, eating, and people watching options than dodging panhandlers on the not so brightly lit streets Downtown. My colleagues who come here from South America and Asia have little interest in watching baseball or basketball, or going to bars, as those activities aren't reimbursed by the company. They do love to shop, often arriving with a half full suitcase, and departing with 2 nearly overweight ones. This is because equivalent shopping at home is far more expensive for them. On weekends, they generally head to the outlet mall in Cypress.

 

They will sometimes attend Dynamo games, since they love soccer.

 

This is true, to the fact that at least as a few years ago, the Baytown Best Buy stores deliberately put iPods and other consumer electronics close to the front because they're often visited by international visitors who spend their limited shore time buying consumer electronics that are substantially more expensive elsewhere. But HSR stations aren't international, they connect with Dallas, unless you consider Dallas to be another country.

 

I'm pretty sure that some of the "The station should be downtown" sentiment stems from the fact that Dallas has theirs downtown, but besides things like access and all, it still wouldn't work in Houston's favor because the downtowns aren't comparable. Instead of comparing Downtown to Uptown, if we compared the Dallas Downtown to Houston Downtown, it's not a contest. Dallas Downtown has museums, performing arts spaces, actual shopping (Neiman Marcus, at least), American history (Dealey Plaza), and a farmer's market, all within reasonable walking distance. Houston's downtown has a bunch of skyscrapers, some bars, the tunnels (one of my favorite things about Houston's downtown, personally, but shut after 3 pm and on weekends), performing arts spaces, and a bunch of often-empty stadiums surrounded by parking lots. That's not to say Dallas is better than Houston (we are not getting into that) but downtown to downtown, no contest...a downtown Houston station could still come across as inferior.

 

That's why I think that the NW Mall/Uptown connection is a better bet overall. Change the playing field and don't compete directly.

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This is true, to the fact that at least as a few years ago, the Baytown Best Buy stores deliberately put iPods and other consumer electronics close to the front because they're often visited by international visitors who spend their limited shore time buying consumer electronics that are substantially more expensive elsewhere. But HSR stations aren't international, they connect with Dallas, unless you consider Dallas to be another country.

 

I'm pretty sure that some of the "The station should be downtown" sentiment stems from the fact that Dallas has theirs downtown, but besides things like access and all, it still wouldn't work in Houston's favor because the downtowns aren't comparable. Instead of comparing Downtown to Uptown, if we compared the Dallas Downtown to Houston Downtown, it's not a contest. Dallas Downtown has museums, performing arts spaces, actual shopping (Neiman Marcus, at least), American history (Dealey Plaza), and a farmer's market, all within reasonable walking distance. Houston's downtown has a bunch of skyscrapers, some bars, the tunnels (one of my favorite things about Houston's downtown, personally, but shut after 3 pm and on weekends), performing arts spaces, and a bunch of often-empty stadiums surrounded by parking lots. That's not to say Dallas is better than Houston (we are not getting into that) but downtown to downtown, no contest...a downtown Houston station could still come across as inferior.

 

That's why I think that the NW Mall/Uptown connection is a better bet overall. Change the playing field and don't compete directly.

 

You are saying this isn't a Houston vs Dallas thing yet you say it's not contest that downtown Dallas is the clear winner. It seems that you're using this as reason as to why they should get a station and Houston shouldn't. I gotta correct you.

 

You mention that downtown Dallas has museums and performing arts spaces, yet you fail to mention Houston's theater district. Houston has only been out of having it's shopping (Former Macy's) for about 2 years now. With the planned retail district, that will definitely leave it not long before Houston will be back on the scene for retail again. C'mon, we're talking about one freegin department store here? No contest? Houston has 3 stadiums in it's downtown, how the heck is that no contest? 

 

C'mon bro, Let's use some better examples. Downtown Houston is more than just some bars and a bunch of empty stadiums surrounded by parking lots. Those parking lots have been quickly converting to hotels, parks, and apartments.

 

This can not be a serious post here,  really.

 

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You are saying this isn't a Houston vs Dallas thing yet you say it's not contest that downtown Dallas is the clear winner. It seems that you're using this as reason as to why they should get a station and Houston shouldn't. I gotta correct you.

You mention that downtown Dallas has museums and performing arts spaces, yet you fail to mention Houston's theater district. Houston has only been out of having it's shopping (Former Macy's) for about 2 years now. With the planned retail district, that will definitely leave it not long before Houston will be back on the scene for retail again. C'mon, we're talking about one freegin department store here? No contest? Houston has 3 stadiums in it's downtown, how the heck is that no contest?

C'mon bro, Let's use some better examples. Downtown Houston is more than just some bars and a bunch of empty stadiums surrounded by parking lots. Those parking lots have been quickly converting to hotels, parks, and apartments.

This can not be a serious post here, really.

Sounds like you're misquoting me already. Did I say that Houston only had a few bars and stadiums, and no theaters? No. Did I say that Dallas had its own equivalent of Uptown and all those other things that make Houston better? No.

Wait until tomorrow (well, later today sometime) when I can answer your post better and clear up any misunderstandings. I've got work in 9 hours.

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I'd rather stay in downtown but those who argue that the galleria is popular with foreigners are correct. People from South America come in to load up on luxury items. My wife used to work in Neiman Marcus. That is a large part of their business. Walk through the high end shops in the galleria, you won't see rich people from Houston, they don't shop there. The women in River Oaks shop in New York, London, etc... My wife can't even get the kind of purses she wants in Houston. We get them when we're in New York.

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You are saying this isn't a Houston vs Dallas thing yet you say it's not contest that downtown Dallas is the clear winner. It seems that you're using this as reason as to why they should get a station and Houston shouldn't. I gotta correct you.

 

You mention that downtown Dallas has museums and performing arts spaces, yet you fail to mention Houston's theater district. Houston has only been out of having it's shopping (Former Macy's) for about 2 years now. With the planned retail district, that will definitely leave it not long before Houston will be back on the scene for retail again. C'mon, we're talking about one freegin department store here? No contest? Houston has 3 stadiums in it's downtown, how the heck is that no contest? 

 

C'mon bro, Let's use some better examples. Downtown Houston is more than just some bars and a bunch of empty stadiums surrounded by parking lots. Those parking lots have been quickly converting to hotels, parks, and apartments.

 

This can not be a serious post here,  really.

Besides completely misquoting me (I did say that Houston had performing arts venues, for starters) and I did not say anything to close to the fact that Houston's downtown is "just some bars and a bunch of empty stadiums surrounded by parking lots", trying to pass off the former Macy's (which was doing badly even before it closed) as the retail Houston needs, and ignoring everything else.

If we're on retail, a better argument to claim would be GreenStreet, which Dallas does not have an equivalent of. The "retail district" has been discussed for several years, and nothing has come of it, which is just as well since downtown malls (indoor and outdoor) have traditionally failed.

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I'd rather stay in downtown but those who argue that the galleria is popular with foreigners are correct. People from South America come in to load up on luxury items. My wife used to work in Neiman Marcus. That is a large part of their business. Walk through the high end shops in the galleria, you won't see rich people from Houston, they don't shop there. The women in River Oaks shop in New York, London, etc... My wife can't even get the kind of purses she wants in Houston. We get them when we're in New York.

 

You are absolutely correct with regard to the Galleria being popular with foreigners.  Sadly, you then slip in to delusional territory when you state that rich people from Houston don't shop there.  That is silliness.

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