Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
cspwal

Dallas - Houston HSR Station

Where do you want the Texas Central Station be?  

113 members have voted

  1. 1. Where should the station be?

    • Downtown
      82
    • NW Mall site
      26
    • Near IAH
      1
    • South Houston location
      0
    • Out west along 99/beltway 8/highway 6
      1
    • Somewhere else...
      3


Recommended Posts

Having a high speed train frequented by business people that would be served by a light rail extension would help that extension go through

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/11/2016 at 2:30 PM, Sparrow said:

http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/texas/2016/03/11/dallas-houston-high-speed-rail-loses-brazos-valley-support/81676242/

Losing support in the Brazos Valley. The longer this takes to get started, the more time the rural opposition has to stir up problems.

It's kind of peculiar how the local politicians have made such a big show against this project that aims to gain a 100 foot wide easement while we hear nothing negative from them about the planned 400 foot wide 249 Aggie Expressway or the similarly wide proposed Forts-to-Ports Interstate 14 or even the proposed loop around BCS. Do these same rural folks and local politicians oppose Union Pacific, BNSF, the power line companies, and the Keystone pipeline?  

The logistic realities of the HSR not going through College Station has been dwindling for some time and Shiro is too far away, about 25 miles out to nowhere, which is much farther away than NW Mall. I can see why they're bitter about it.

But in terms of the other projects and entities you mention, Union Pacific isn't particularly good friends with anybody...spend a little time on TexAgs and read up on how they wanted to close down two crossings to build a siding, forcing traffic up an already busy two way road to crowd an already existing crossing.

Texas 249 was supposed to be complete in the late 1990s, and it's just now...well, Pinehurst for a four-lane road, and Tomball for limited access. That's not going anywhere soon (and besides, it connects to Navasota), and neither is Interstate 14 (who knows when that will happen).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Audio is available of a presentation about the project by a representative from Texas Central

http://www.h-gac.com/taq/transportation-committees/TAC/2016/07-jul/documents/Item-7.mp3

 

At 13 minutes, he states that three station locations are under consideration along the already-disclosed alignment which ends at the transit center at IH-10 and North Post Oak.

http://www.h-gac.com/taq/transportation-committees/TAC/2016/07-jul/documents/ITEM-07-Update-DEIS-TCR-High-Speed-Rail-presentation.pdf

See slide 22.

 

I'm thinking one station site is at the transit center, one is probably at Northwest Mall, and the third is somewhere in between. But I'm just speculating, I don't have any information in addition to that audio. I'm also thinking that they're looking to determine where they can get the best terms on real estate purchases. If the owners of Northwest Mall (or the other sites) want too much money, they need to have options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I attended Texas Central's public meeting this evening. No new information was available. For the Houston station, they are still assessing sites between the Metro transit center and Northwest Mall. Texas Central is saying the draft EIS will be released in December, and presumably the Houston station location should be recommended by then.

 

They are also working to define the design along Hempstead road. Inside Beltway 8, they are saying they will stay within the Hempstead road right-of-way and are trying to avoid any right-of-way acquisition, which means the roadway will be under the elevated structure. They are also working on the design at Beltway 8, and the guy I spoke to said they are leaning toward going over the Sam Houston Tollway main lanes.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time I think about the possible NW Mall terminal location I reminded of Gare du Nord in Paris where the Eurostar train terminates for Paris.  It's not as convenient as other terminals but it's good enough because there is subway access.  So for Houston this only makes sense if there is light rail or bus connection.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Tumbleweed_Tx said:

rental car companies will pop up in the terminal if this is to happen.

or autonomous car station.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2016 at 8:48 AM, nativehoustonion said:

They need light rail to circle the loop to connect.  New York build a 4 billion Word Trade Center hub, we have to think Global HAIF users.

 

Lol.

 

They replaced a hub with an overpriced architect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets look on the bright side guys. If they do terminate at NW Mall (which we would rather settle for Downtown (which they can still do in the future)), if successful, would act as a sort of mass transit magnet finally bringing rail extensions to the west of town. This might end up being a blessing in disguise in a lot of ways. We need to start setting our frame of reference around this viewpoint. This will be how bringing rail to the west will be a success.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the end, this is all just a huge boondoggle. It's not that far to drive to Dallas, and if you're in a real hurry, hop on a flight. No one needs a train between the two cities, really. It is just a "want" by folks who think it would be neato.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, gmac said:

In the end, this is all just a huge boondoggle. It's not that far to drive to Dallas, and if you're in a real hurry, hop on a flight. No one needs a train between the two cities, really. It is just a "want" by folks who think it would be neato.

 

Then don't ride it! Don't we live in a country and even a state that likes to promote more options as part of a free market? Doesn't competition in the transportation market drive down prices? You are right it is a "want", but then again flying isn't a "need" neither is driving a car. People should have options and most end up driving cars because they "have" to. Not because they "want" too.

 

Have you ridden on a train before? I mean one that is actually good and fast and takes you somewhere. Try it. Don't knock something until you try it.

 

Whats makes TCR or trains in general such a threat?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I make it a point to ignore any opinion that uses the term "boondoggle" non-ironically.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

Then don't ride it! Don't we live in a country and even a state that likes to promote more options as part of a free market? Doesn't competition in the transportation market drive down prices? You are right it is a "want", but then again flying isn't a "need" neither is driving a car. People should have options and most end up driving cars because they "have" to. Not because they "want" too.

 

Have you ridden on a train before? I mean one that is actually good and fast and takes you somewhere. Try it. Don't knock something until you try it.

 

Whats makes TCR or trains in general such a threat?

 

You got me. I'm not really very experienced with trains. I have only ridden about 100,000 miles in more than a dozen nations, so I'm pretty much a rookie.

 

I'm fine with this project if it doesn't cost taxpayers a dime and no eminent domain force is used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, gmac said:

 

You got me. I'm not really very experienced with trains. I have only ridden about 100,000 miles in more than a dozen nations, so I'm pretty much a rookie.

 

I'm fine with this project if it doesn't cost taxpayers a dime and no eminent domain force is used.

 

I'm sure you were there at the TXDOT meetings for the Katy Freeway, 290, 610, and even the proposed reroute of 45 where you got up on your righteous white horse protecting the tax payers from the millions and billions of dollars used on freeways that are now congested once again because you cared about them so much and also fought tooth and nail to prevent the government from using eminent domain, right?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course. I won't rest until we are all riding horses again and forging trails.

 

I know you know there is a difference. Well, I HOPE you know there is a difference.

 

Is the government building this railway?

Edited by gmac
Piling on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course. I won't rest until we are all riding horses again and forging trails.



 

I know you know there is a difference. Well, I HOPE you know there is a difference.

 

Is the government building this railway?

 

Knock yourself out buddy. That's right, Let's keep Houston country and backwards!!!

 

I already think of Houston as several decades behind in terms of public transportation when I get back from cities like Denver, Seattle, Portland, Philly and Atlanta. Why stop there?  Phoenix and Charlotte are even breathing down our necks. Next we should let Amarillo and Lubbock pass us up next!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, gmac said:

Is the government building this railway?

 

It is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, gmac said:

 

You got me. I'm not really very experienced with trains. I have only ridden about 100,000 miles in more than a dozen nations, so I'm pretty much a rookie.

 

I'm fine with this project if it doesn't cost taxpayers a dime and no eminent domain force is used.

 

So we have to hold the train to a higher standard than any / all infrastructure project.... ever?

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, scarface said:

 

 

 

Knock yourself out buddy. That's right, Let's keep Houston country and backwards!!!

 

I already think of Houston as several decades behind in terms of public transportation when I get back from cities like Denver, Seattle, Portland, Philly and Atlanta. Why stop there?  Phoenix and Charlotte are even breathing down our necks. Next we should let Amarillo and Lubbock pass us up next!

 

You and I just have a fundamental philosophical difference about what Houston is. It is far from "country and backwards" but I am glad you got that off your chest. It relieves your stress :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

President Donald Trump’s team has compiled a list of about 50 infrastructure projects nationwide, totaling at least $137.5 billion...

 

... Among the projects could be a new terminal for the Kansas City airport, upgrades to Interstate 95 in North Carolina and the construction of a high-speed railway from Dallas to Houston.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article128492164.html

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Texas Central has said they will seek low-interest government loans, so this would be good news for them since most reports about the Trump infrastructure plan suggest it will be public-private partnerships (e.g. toll roads) and tax credits to promote private investment. I don't know if the so-called "Tifia" loans would apply to trains.

 

Trump administration support would likely be more favorable for North Texas, where they are studying a link between Dallas and Fort Worth. That section is definitely not financially feasible on its own and will require government funds. Although the Trump plan would be expected to minimize "free" money, I could see some funding going towards system connectivity and promoting success of privately funded efforts, which in this case would be helping to funnel more passengers into Texas Central.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/2/2016 at 5:40 PM, BeerNut said:

Every time I think about the possible NW Mall terminal location I reminded of Gare du Nord in Paris where the Eurostar train terminates for Paris.  It's not as convenient as other terminals but it's good enough because there is subway access.  So for Houston this only makes sense if there is light rail or bus connection.

 

With the new Uptown BRT, how difficult would it be for Metro to extend that line from the NW Transit Center to the hypothetical station? It would at least be something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:47 AM, br0ken_shad0w said:

 

It would at least be something.

 

You make it seem as if there is nothing there. However, currently NW mall (even though it is vacant) is well served with Metro's:

33 Post Oak,

58 Hammerly,

66 Quitman,

71 Cottage Grove,

85 Antoine-Washington and

26 Long-Point

Something indeed. Other than Metro's transit centers, park and rides or downtown, how many places in Houston have as many public transportation options as NW mall? 

 

In any event, I doubt many Texas Central passengers will ride public transportation to/from the station. At most, it will be as many people who ride the 102IAH to Bush airport or 40 Telephone to Hobby airport. Basically just the workers of those airports/train station who don't have cars yet. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The environmental studies that Texas Central did came to the conclusion it would be some large portion of the over all project to get it downtown from the NW mall site

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Geographer said:

How much would it cost the city to put the HSR station downtown?

The cost to get to Downtown was in the billions. No economic reason to put it there.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ross said:

The cost to get to Downtown was in the billions. No economic reason to put it there.

 

Plus the population center of the Houston area has been moving slowly west for years.  Putting it in a run down area near the intersection of 3 major highways is a brilliant move.  The potential for expansion and redevelopment is much higher here than it would be a few miles east in downtown.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, august948 said:

 

Plus the population center of the Houston area has been moving slowly west for years.  Putting it in a run down area near the intersection of 3 major highways is a brilliant move.  The potential for expansion and redevelopment is much higher here than it would be a few miles east in downtown.

.

This is key. Not only population, but workforce concentration.

 

It's a great location for getting to a large % of the white collar jobs in Houston. 

 

Remember, business folks can easily expense an uber and the station is 10-20 minutes to Uptown, Downtown, or the Energy corridor.

 

The only real misses are that it isn't convenient to the two large education institutions in the city and that the medical center (a huge employer and economic driver for the city) isn't easily accessible from the location.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thought too is that the west side is far from either airport. So for those trips to Dallas, going to this station would be closer for a lot of people.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was there anything that came of the town hall meeting (I think it was in Hempstead?) that was held Wednesday opposing the project?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, BEES?! said:

Was there anything that came of the town hall meeting (I think it was in Hempstead?) that was held Wednesday opposing the project?

 

Doubtful...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been lurking on the TAHSR FB page and it's mostly people just angrily shouting "No HSR!" all over the comments, but very few actual landowners that I could see. I'm really curious how much actual opposition this faces, and what TC is currently doing to advance the project along. (Sounds like they're still negotiating with landowners)

Edited by BEES?!
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This Dallas company is really doing a great job positioning Dallas as the transit hub for high-speed rail in Texas. They're working on this Houston-Dallas line but are also working on an I-35 line from San Antonio leading to Dallas (currently no plans for a Houston to I-35 Corridor line so maybe a Houston company has to form to get that built). They have made sure that Downtown Dallas is the hub for the rail, while Houston's station is 5 miles west. Why must H-Town get the short end of the stick again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Trae said:

This Dallas company is really doing a great job positioning Dallas as the transit hub for high-speed rail in Texas. They're working on this Houston-Dallas line but are also working on an I-35 line from San Antonio leading to Dallas (currently no plans for a Houston to I-35 Corridor line so maybe a Houston company has to form to get that built). They have made sure that Downtown Dallas is the hub for the rail, while Houston's station is 5 miles west. Why must H-Town get the short end of the stick again.

 

What is your source for the idea this company is working on a line between Dallas and San Antonio?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

What is your source for the idea this company is working on a line between Dallas and San Antonio?

 

Well right now the focus is obviously on the Houston-Dallas train. But you have people like Drayton McClane (Baylor alum and Waco advocate) who sits on Texas Central's board and wants HSR in the city. It makes the most sense for the I-35 Corridor to be their next project. It's in the infancy stages but there are a few articles online about it and it's very likely local politicians along 35 will partner with Texas Central Railway to build HSR.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Trae said:

 

Well right now the focus is obviously on the Houston-Dallas train. But you have people like Drayton McClane (Baylor alum and Waco advocate) who sits on Texas Central's board and wants HSR in the city. It makes the most sense for the I-35 Corridor to be their next project. It's in the infancy stages but there are a few articles online about it and it's very likely local politicians along 35 will partner with Texas Central Railway to build HSR.

 

 

 

So you are just assuming they might at some point have some interest in working on a route from Dallas to San Antonio?  Well done.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

 

So you are just assuming they might at some point have some interest in working on a route from Dallas to San Antonio?  Well done.

 

Not that they might at some point have interest (because they do off the record) but the first rail project has to be completed first. Then they'll move onto the I-35 Corridor and make sure not to make the same mistakes/have similar issues, etc., from their first line. They aren't just going to stop when the HTX-DTX line is finished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Trae said:

 

Not that they might at some point have interest (because they do off the record) but the first rail project has to be completed first. Then they'll move onto the I-35 Corridor and make sure not to make the same mistakes/have similar issues, etc., from their first line. They aren't just going to stop when the HTX-DTX line is finished.

 

LOL   Just to be clear... you're making all of this up, right?  I assure you, to the extent they have an interest in an I-35 line, they also have an interest in the line from Houston to Austin/San Antonio --- the whole Texas triangle.

Edited by Houston19514

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

LOL   Just to be clear... you're making all of this up, right?  I assure you, to the extent they have an interest in an I-35 line, they also have an interest in the line from Houston to Austin/San Antonio --- the whole Texas triangle.

 

Doubt it considering the population differences (much more going on along I-35 than I-10) and the fact they're based in Dallas and want it to be the high-speed rail hub.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The articles about the I-35 corridor are federal studies and TCR is not affiliated with that line. From the conversation @Luminare and @mollusk had years ago (which, wow) there would be a spur to Austin around the area where it bends to head north to College Station

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Trae said:

This Dallas company is really doing a great job positioning Dallas as the transit hub for high-speed rail in Texas. They're working on this Houston-Dallas line but are also working on an I-35 line from San Antonio leading to Dallas (currently no plans for a Houston to I-35 Corridor line so maybe a Houston company has to form to get that built). They have made sure that Downtown Dallas is the hub for the rail, while Houston's station is 5 miles west. Why must H-Town get the short end of the stick again.

Houston's not getting the short end again. It's just not economic to get to Downtown Houston with HSR, unlike the  South side of Dallas, which provides a pretty clear shot to Downtown there without having to buy a bunch of really expensive right of way. In addition, there's only 7 people who want to go to downtown Houston(I made that one up).

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

So you are just assuming they might at some point have some interest in working on a route from Dallas to San Antonio?  Well done.

 

There was an update at the January NCTCOG meeting. See item 6

video https://nctcog.swagit.com/play/01092020-1369

presentation  https://www.nctcog.org/nctcg/media/Transportation/Committees/RTC/2020/presentations-jan.pdf?ext=.pdf

 

You'll see that North Texas is enamored of hyperloop. At 3:50 in the video or page 7 in the presentation, the alternatives screening is shown. All the high-ranking options are hyperloop, and two HSR options are ranked low.

North Texas is bidding for the hyperloop test track. (That's not mentioned in the presentation)

 

In my opinion, hyperloop is somewhat speculative since only short test tracks have been built. I also think it is going to be about the same cost as HSR. (I think I read a report that even Hyperloop officials are saying it will cost around 75% of HSR, and it will probably increase)

 

The preliminary analysis also recommends running it mostly along IH35, especially through the heavily populated areas. I'm somewhat skeptical of the feasibility of running it though Austin on IH-35. But it would be great for access to UT and downtown Austin.

 

The IH 35 proposal would not affect a Houston-to-Austin expansion of Texas Central.

 

 

Edited by MaxConcrete

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, MaxConcrete said:

 

There was an update at the January NCTCOG meeting. See item 6

video https://nctcog.swagit.com/play/01092020-1369

presentation  https://www.nctcog.org/nctcg/media/Transportation/Committees/RTC/2020/presentations-jan.pdf?ext=.pdf

 

You'll see that North Texas is enamored of hyperloop. At 3:50 in the video or page 7 in the presentation, the alternatives screening is shown. All the high-ranking options are hyperloop, and two HSR options are ranked low.

North Texas is bidding for the hyperloop test track. (That's not mentioned in the presentation)

 

In my opinion, hyperloop is somewhat speculative since only short test tracks have been built. I also think it is going to be about the same cost as HSR. (I think I read a report that even Hyperloop officials are saying it will cost around 75% of HSR, and it will probably increase)

 

The preliminary analysis also recommends running it mostly along IH35, especially through the heavily populated areas. I'm somewhat skeptical of the feasibility of running it though Austin on IH-35. But it would be great for access to UT and downtown Austin.

 

The IH 35 proposal would not affect a Houston-to-Austin expansion of Texas Central.

 

 

 

And it also won't prevent TCR from expanding into the I-35 corridor either. Let me ask you this, which is cheaper to buy, 1 thing in 1 package, or something in bulk? While I'm interesting in the Hyperloop as well, at the end of the day it will be severely limited due to the number of butts they can put in seats. Prices to ride in the Hyperloop will be high by virtue of their being a very limited number of seats. HSR will not have that problem. The more seats means they can keep the price of a seat lower. I also find it mind-numbing this idea that just because something new comes along that the other immediately has to be thrown out. Both will cater to very different markets, and due to the number of seats, different incomes. Lets say they both get to the point where all the differences are worked out and both are dead even in terms of viability and capacity, they could still compete in the market place. Let them both build their lines and see what happens. At the end of the day if both get built then its a win win for everyone. People get more options for travel. Is that a bad thing? Do we really need to put ourselves in camps to the point we want one tech to crash just so the other gets ahead? That just seems pointless.

 

With that being said, oh wow so a thinktank that doesn't actually operate a business, or turns a profit decides that the best alternative is a tech that is still in its infancy, and only looks cheaper on paper, but doesn't account for all the other associated costs that go into a infant technology, and looks to advise government that is already naive when it comes to alternative transit planning, I'm shocked...no I'm not. I don't care what some thinktank considers to be the best option. I care about what Elon Musk thinks is the best option, and I care about what TCR thinks is the best option because they are actually paying for it. If this is a government job then I care about what voters care for it, and not some volunteer, unelected outfit thinks is the best option. These people will not have to put their money where their mouth is, but Elon Musk and TCR will, you know, the people that will actually build this. California did the same thing and that is why they are in the mess they are in now. Again, lets just let them build this stuff on their own dime and on their time, and see what happens. I'm hopeful of Hyperloops future, but it does have its drawnbacks already from the word go, and is an infant tech, and its also not some silver bullet to point in question the way people are painting it as.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A tunnel starting at the Northwest mall site that goes five miles to downtown would be great, but I know the economics of such a tunnel would not work. A huge bummer that downtown isn't getting the station. I think Dallas is ran much more with the future in mind as they seem to always be strategically ahead of Houston. I hope I've just been focusing on the wrong metrics, but I feel like Houston is always one step behind. Please prove me wrong because I know that that isn't the case 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well you haven't given any examples (except for the stations locations of this potential railroad), so it's hard to craft much of a response...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, MaxConcrete said:

 

There was an update at the January NCTCOG meeting. See item 6

video https://nctcog.swagit.com/play/01092020-1369

presentation  https://www.nctcog.org/nctcg/media/Transportation/Committees/RTC/2020/presentations-jan.pdf?ext=.pdf

 

You'll see that North Texas is enamored of hyperloop. At 3:50 in the video or page 7 in the presentation, the alternatives screening is shown. All the high-ranking options are hyperloop, and two HSR options are ranked low.

North Texas is bidding for the hyperloop test track. (That's not mentioned in the presentation)

 

In my opinion, hyperloop is somewhat speculative since only short test tracks have been built. I also think it is going to be about the same cost as HSR. (I think I read a report that even Hyperloop officials are saying it will cost around 75% of HSR, and it will probably increase)

 

The preliminary analysis also recommends running it mostly along IH35, especially through the heavily populated areas. I'm somewhat skeptical of the feasibility of running it though Austin on IH-35. But it would be great for access to UT and downtown Austin.

 

The IH 35 proposal would not affect a Houston-to-Austin expansion of Texas Central.

 

 

 

Any HSR or hyperloop that is built along the I35 corridor will likely pass Austin to the east.... along SH130.

 

I always imagined a stop at or ~ the Austin Airport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, HoustonBoy said:

A tunnel starting at the Northwest mall site that goes five miles to downtown would be great, but I know the economics of such a tunnel would not work. A huge bummer that downtown isn't getting the station. I think Dallas is ran much more with the future in mind as they seem to always be strategically ahead of Houston. I hope I've just been focusing on the wrong metrics, but I feel like Houston is always one step behind. Please prove me wrong because I know that that isn't the case 

 

There's no way a tunnel would work. Too many impediments to building a tunnel, from acquiring the underground rights, to construction it through areas with unknown oil wells from 100 years ago, water wells, etc.

 

There's no easy way to get to Downtown Houston. Dallas is different, and there is a direct route to the proposed location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...