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Dallas - Houston HSR Station


cspwal

Where do you want the Texas Central Station be?  

118 members have voted

  1. 1. Where should the station be?

    • Downtown
      86
    • NW Mall site
      27
    • Near IAH
      1
    • South Houston location
      0
    • Out west along 99/beltway 8/highway 6
      1
    • Somewhere else...
      3


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Loads of people in this thread applauding the NW mall site selection over downtown as though it was a logistical decision on the investors part, and going out of their way to prove to everyone that the investors made the smarter decision.

Logistically.

They're arguing about it in all 8 of the Dallas to Houston high speed rail threads we have on the front page!

Yeah that's just dumb. :lol:

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Regarding "decisions" there are no decisions regarding real intermodal facilities (a METRO facility) which is what I have been discussing in response to another post. Metro will almost certainly need to plan to have at least some sort of intermodal site for LRT to HSR similar to what they would have to have at Wheeler station for commuter rail and light rail also.  Right now Metro has no plans to build an intermodal (other than bus to rail or car to bus) station anywhere that I can tell and they dont have real plans even to build commuter rail to Burnett Station.

I agree it's a failure of the region to not get everyone on the same page here, METRO has been strangely aloof lately regarding their light rail plans or big picture stuff.

 

My point was merely that since a private company is going to have a terminal at NW Mall, and since this location could likely also serve the same western commuter routes (and indeed Metro indicated stops at the NW transit center on their early maps before continuing to Burnett), and also would be on top of a the junction of two light rail lines, in addition to the highway access, and the site size, etc that going forward this would be a decent site for Houston's major intermodal facility and arguably better than the Hardy Yards site.

If everything you say is going to happen happens, then sure it won't be an awful site. It's just that the likelyhood of all of that happening anytime soon is extremely low, and again, it's obvious that as things stand now the NW mall site is significantly less attractive than a downtown site, and this decision was made purely on the financial side. Downtown already has all of those things you're hoping will eventually come to NW Mall.

 

If TCR had found it feasible (and actually maybe they would have if Metro had actually built a large intermodal facility at Burnett) to locate their terminal at Hardy Yards, my analysis would be that obviously Hardy Yards is better since thats where HSR is located.

Again it's purely a cost thing, they'd likely have to grade separate it the majority of the way through to downtown from NW Mall, as the UP ROW is very slim. Grade separating HSR through an urban area is likely approaching a billion dollars per mile, as well as purchasing necessary real estate downtown. As things stand now, both Hardy Yard and NW mall don't have anything on the specific site, but Hardy Yard is directly on an existing light rail line and is much closer to a major employment center, as well as the majority of other destinations in Houston.

 

Oh and BTW, it doesn't matter if NW mall is torn down or not, there's still nothing there and it's not really close to anything except Uptown, and hell, it isn't even much closer to Uptown than Burnett.  NW Mall is 4 miles from the Galleria and Burnett is 6.  Oh and to get there from NW mall you have to take 610 south, what a glorious drive that always is on a weekday. 

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I'm just wondering what Dallas was able to do to hurdle this that Houston couldn't (or not doing?)

A stop like this that is so peripheral from the center focus of the city just seems like a move like Lubbock or Amarillo would take. Not a big metropolis like Houston.

Very frustrating to say the least. Not saying that this is Houston's fault. But I have to assume that if Dallas was able to jump this hurdle, there's something our city is not doing.

I'm just wondering what Dallas was able to do to hurdle this that Houston couldn't or not doing?

A stop like this that is so peripheral from the center focus of the city just seems like a move like Lubbock or Amarillo would take. Not a big metropolis like Houston.

Very frustrating to say the least. Not saying that this is Houston's fault. But I have to assume that if Dallas was able to jump this hurdle, there's something our city is not doing.

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There's very little in terms of residential neighborhoods along the route to the proposed Dallas location, which minimizes opposition and cost. From the maps and aerials, it looks like they have a pretty straight approach with few obstacles. Getting to Downtown Houston is much more difficult, with very little available space to build dedicated structures to hold the HSR tracks. And that's ignoring the impact on people who live next to the line. I am also skeptical that UP and BNSF would be amenable to allowing their RoW to be used, given the potential disruption to freight movement during construction.

 

 

There are many factors, but the more glaring one is the political pull that some landowners have along the route from the Houston station to Downtown.

So, it's your opinion that the people affected by a potential route to Downtown ought to just suck it up and give in, a sort of "best for the masses, so I'll screw up my life" approach?

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So, it's your opinion that the people affected by a potential route to Downtown ought to just suck it up and give in, a sort of "best for the masses, so I'll screw up my life" approach?

Ummm...what?! How do you even get any of that from what I said? That's insane. All I said was that The Heights has a lot of political pull and the resources necessary to make a line into downtown difficult.

No where did I say they people affected need to suck it up and quit complaining. That's hilarious that you thought that though. A tad bit defensive for a simple observation that meant no harm to the Heights residents.

I mean, I basically said the same thing you did responding to the other user.

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There's very little in terms of residential neighborhoods along the route to the proposed Dallas location, which minimizes opposition and cost. From the maps and aerials, it looks like they have a pretty straight approach with few obstacles. Getting to Downtown Houston is much more difficult, with very little available space to build dedicated structures to hold the HSR tracks. And that's ignoring the impact on people who live next to the line. I am also skeptical that UP and BNSF would be amenable to allowing their RoW to be used, given the potential disruption to freight movement during construction.

So, it's your opinion that the people affected by a potential route to Downtown ought to just suck it up and give in, a sort of "best for the masses, so I'll screw up my life" approach?

Yup absolutely

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Yup absolutely

 

Nah...TCR made the right decision.  No need to jeopardize the whole project just to go a few more miles.  A downtown station isn't THAT important.  Maybe later there will be a good business case to be made for pushing through.  Or maybe not.

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Nah...TCR made the right decision.  No need to jeopardize the whole project just to go a few more miles.  A downtown station isn't THAT important.  Maybe later there will be a good business case to be made for pushing through.  Or maybe not.

 

I think it was also about actually constructing a suitable station downtown, Dallas already has a station that could accommodate HSR.  They'd have to construct an entire station where real estate is most expensive. 

 

Maybe sometime in the future a new station will be constructed downtown and service will be extended, hopefully. 

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But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

 

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

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But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

 

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

 

Who gets to be "Houston" in this case?

 

In other words, the people who are opposed to this tend to be the sorts of people who have the kind of pull to determine what "Houston" wants to do.

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But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

Scarface, south Dallas has massive amounts of empty land all the way to pretty much Downtown. It's the least developed area of the city. That's why they're getting a station Downtown. Northwest Houston is massively developed even if it's mostly suburbs. the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288. That's a lot of added miles and time to loop around Katy & sugar land plus the expense of getting from 610 to Downtown. Dallas you could zig-zag over I-45 to the trinity River without harming (or paying for), a fly.

Getting to Downtown from the Northwest mall you'd be crossing some of the most NIMBYest neighborhoods in our city. That's a lot of money spent in the courts, and a lot of negative press and public outcry this project doesn't need. If the HSR line was cutting through let's say Denton to Dallas, they wouldn't have a Downtown station either.

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yeah, how people can't comprehend the obstacles faced on the inner city segment of the Houston end of the line vs getting the train to downtown Dallas is beyond me.. its pretty straight forward if you know each city. south Dallas is desolate, and what people do live there are typically poor minorities who dont have a strong NIMBY/political backing.

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Scarface, south Dallas has massive amounts of empty land all the way to pretty much Downtown. It's the least developed area of the city. That's why they're getting a station Downtown. Northwest Houston is massively developed even if it's mostly suburbs. the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288. That's a lot of added miles and time to loop around Katy & sugar land plus the expense of getting from 610 to Downtown. Dallas you could zig-zag over I-45 to the trinity River without harming (or paying for), a fly.

Getting to Downtown from the Northwest mall you'd be crossing some of the most NIMBYest neighborhoods in our city. That's a lot of money spent in the courts, and a lot of negative press and public outcry this project doesn't need. If the HSR line was cutting through let's say Denton to Dallas, they wouldn't have a Downtown station either.

 

Well is it unrealistic to think that there's a way they could build it alongside the Hardy Toll road or elevate it throughout some of those neighborhoods? They don't ever seem to have an issue when it comes to building massive freeways through our city. Somehow I'm just thinking they're using it as a cop-out.

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Well is it unrealistic to think that there's a way they could build it alongside the Hardy Toll road or elevate it throughout some of those neighborhoods? They don't ever seem to have an issue when it comes to building massive freeways through our city. Somehow I'm just thinking they're using it as a cop-out.

Money. Plain and simple. Freeways are paid for by us the tax payers, and this project is paid for with private investment. Look, I'm 100% supportive of a Downtown Houston station too, but I'm just trying to help you understand why it's not happening. It's not the Mayor, City Council, Chamber of Commerce, Local Politician, or GHP asleep at their desks. 

 

I'm afraid to ask, what do you think they're copping out of? 

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But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

 

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

 

If Houston already had some form of commuter rail and had a suitable station downtown, then it would have had a better shot IMO.  Houston is just really behind in it's transit infrastructure, and has a joke of an Amshack station downtown.  

 

It really sucks, hopefully one day a better station is built downtown and the TCR line may be extended.  Hopefully. 

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I agree with scarface and think it is somewhat of a copout to use that as a reason not to take the high speed rail downtown. It's not like it's straight development all the way down from the northside. There are some barren spots where there could've been other options; such as those suggested: tunneling, or elevating. Running it alongside the tollway wasn't a bad idea either, but I'm uncertain what kind of impact that would've had.

 

At least make plans to turn Northwest Mall into a nice mall/transit center with the option for a rapid lightrail line into downtown, and another route from the NW station right into the Uptown/Galleria area. Hey LIGHTBULB!!! Bring the planned Uptown BRT line up to there and this could be the push it needs to get federal $$$ to go ahead and convert it to lightrail. But hey, I forgot this is Houston. A rapid lightrail line into downtown from the mall probably wouldn't happen. They'll probably just end up running some shuttle vans and buses to do the job.

 

I don't mean to sound like a Debbie Downer, but when I learned of this HSR plan, I was excited that it might increase activity between our State's largest city centers. In a way, it just kind of defeats the purpose of our hopes of a more urban Houston for it not to go downtown. After all the development going in and around downtown: Hardy Rail Yards, Buffalo Bayou, Eado, Midtown seems all in vain.

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So why is this getting built again? I would never use it unless I'm going to watch my te beat their team.

 

That's one use for it.  I think their aim is to take some of the airline and possibly car traffic between here and Dallas.  I don't have much use for it either, but if I can get a round trip ticket cheap enough I might just ride it there and back one time for the experience.

 

I can imagine it might be popular during the one-after-next (after 2017) superbowl.  Also, for superbowls in Dallas.  Take it early in the day and return late at night after the game.  Could be comparable or cheaper than driving in and getting a hotel room.

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Montrose "the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288."

 

My friend I work at an area of town closer than you described that is void of life and is full of roaming packs of dogs, trucks, diesel shops, landfills, superfund sites and Mexican beer joints that scare Mexicans I work with.

 

My friend welcome to McCarty Drive " Spoken like Jurassic Park"

 

Land is available and cheap - I'm talking about past moontower where not many here is familiar with.

 

On top of one of the active or non-active landfills the skyline view is so ridiculously perfect. If you have lost your sense of smell you might just make a home for yourself.

 

Cheers-

Lorenzo

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Montrose "the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288."

 

My friend I work at an area of town closer than you described that is void of life and is full of roaming packs of dogs, trucks, diesel shops, landfills, superfund sites and Mexican beer joints that scare Mexicans I work with.

 

My friend welcome to McCarty Drive " Spoken like Jurassic Park"

 

Land is available and cheap - I'm talking about past moontower where not many here is familiar with.

 

On top of one of the active or non-active landfills the skyline view is so ridiculously perfect. If you have lost your sense of smell you might just make a home for yourself.

 

Cheers-

Lorenzo

Okay, you caught me. 610 @ 288 is the closest you can get without tearing down as many existing structures. ;)

 

My point being is that we don't have the access that south Dallas has.

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The planned route for Texas Central Railway’s high-speed train between Houston and Dallas would only bring the train as far as the 610 Loop.

But the Gulf Coast Rail District says to make the system viable the train needs to come into downtown, or there has to be some sort of commuter rail option that would link downtown with the high-speed line.

The Rail District now wants to study the possibility of a rail line along the I-10 corridor that would get passengers close to the downtown Amtrak station.

Gulf Coast Rail District Executive Director Maureen Crocker says a train could possibly run on the median or along the embankments. Crocker adds if the high-speed rail line doesn’t have an easy connection into downtown it could cause problems for everyone.

“It’s going to put a lot of pressure on the roadway network right at 610 and I-10, which is already one of the most congested parts of this region,” says Crocker. 

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2015/12/08/130355/study-would-look-at-new-options-for-high-speed-rail-in-houston/

 

 

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