Harris County Jail At 1307 Baker St.

[terra002]

Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't waste a perfect bayou location on our jails? Moving them would also help alleviate the transient and homeless population in downtown. If we're going to turn downtown into a vibrant and livable area, something has to be done. What do you think?

[IronTiger]

Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't waste a perfect bayou location on our jails? Moving them would also help alleviate the transient and homeless population in downtown. If we're going to turn downtown into a vibrant and livable area, something has to be done. What do you think?

1. OK, where to?

2. Every downtown/big metro area has a homeless problem, either way.

[cspwal]

I've always thought having the jail across the bayou from the county processing, accessed via an enclosed bridge, was a nice choice that seemed like it the jail was on an island with no escape.  And realistically, the jail needs to be near the court house, and the only place that makes sense for the court house is downtown.

[terra002]

Move it anywhere else. Why waste perfect bayou property on a jail? Not saying that it will eliminate the homeless problem, but it will decrease it. 

[terra002]

Well, obviously its not on an island, so that doesnt hold any water. 5th Ward is close, that would be a suitable place. Land would be cheap enough to build a nice facility. 

[Ross]

Move it anywhere else. Why waste perfect bayou property on a jail? Not saying that it will eliminate the homeless problem, but it will decrease it.

What makes you think that moving the jail will have any effect on homeless populations? Why would you want to increase the difficulty of moving prisoners to and from the court house?

[terra002]

When prisoners are released, and they dont have anywhere else to go, where do you think they end up? It doesnt increase the difficulty to put them in a bus and take them somewhere else. Its not like they get to just walk from the court house to the jail. 

[cspwal]

They do.  There's a sky walk over the bayou to County Processing, and then from there they go through the court tunnel systems.  The bailiff/deputy/whoever just walks them the whole way

[Houston19514]

When prisoners are released, and they dont have anywhere else to go, where do you think they end up? It doesnt increase the difficulty to put them in a bus and take them somewhere else. Its not like they get to just walk from the court house to the jail. 

 

Actually, they do get to just walk from the court house to the jail (and vice versa).  That's why they have the system of enclosed sky bridges and tunnels connecting the jail buildings to the criminal court house.

 

Even if moving the jails would have any of the benefits you imagine (and that's a huge stretch), this is an idea that is simply a non-starter.  There are few things I am as confident of flatly stating, without qualification, as this:  Harris County is not going to relocate the county jails away from the downtown courthouse complex.  Not. Going. To. Happen.

[cspwal]

I could see them relocate the jail if they relocate the county courthouse complex...but they would still keep it in downtown.  It helps too much that its centralized

[samagon]

I also don't see this ever happening, however, if they could move the foul stench of fresh poo (or maybe it's raw sewage so hard to tell because I'm not an expert in the subtle differences of human poo and raw sewage) that wafts around right where the bike trail crosses san jacinto, that would be nice.

 

From a foul stench perspective, I'm not sure what's worse, going under the waugh bridge on buffalo bayou, or crossing san jacinto on the bike trail. 

 

the foul stench of bat poo, or human poo, such a choice.

 

edit: if they realign 45 as they have proposed, just move it right next to the greyhound station! every jail release comes with a free greyhound ticket to some other city. hell, just keep the pierce elevated, put a lot of barbed wire on it so the jail occupants (is it politically incorrect to call them inmates?) can't escape, and call it a day. the days inn could be re-purposed into the courthouse. Yeah, I've got this all figured out...

Edited August 21, 2015 by samagon

[cspwal]

Reading the article on the Sheriff's office, they did move the jail from the center of downtown some - it used to be across San Jacinto from the historic courthouse.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_County_Sheriff%27s_Office_(Texas)#Correction_facilities

 

That entire piece of land north of the bend in the Bayou and south of the bike trail is full of jails, with almost 10,000 beds.  On a side note, when will the residential population of downtown surpass the incarcerated population?

[terra002]

Well maybe they should put them in a bus. Obviously this is a far fetched proposal, but it's an interesting topic. 

[adr]

Though I don't think it will ever happen (and I live a couple blocks from the jail), I often think "man that would make great student housing for UHD."

[cloud713]

I also don't see this ever happening, however, if they could move the foul stench of fresh poo (or maybe it's raw sewage so hard to tell because I'm not an expert in the subtle differences of human poo and raw sewage) that wafts around right where the bike trail crosses san jacinto, that would be nice.

 

From a foul stench perspective, I'm not sure what's worse, going under the waugh bridge on buffalo bayou, or crossing san jacinto on the bike trail.

what is that all about? i was in the area checking out Allens Landing progress, and drove through that area past Bakers St Jail(?) with the windows UP, and the smell was unbearable.

[Ross]

When prisoners are released, and they dont have anywhere else to go, where do you think they end up? It doesnt increase the difficulty to put them in a bus and take them somewhere else. Its not like they get to just walk from the court house to the jail. 

 

Source for your assertion? The vast majority of prisoners go home on release, not the streets. Those who were homeless before going to jail, may be homeless on release. Nearly all the homeless have a mental illness or are long term substance abusers.

 

[terra002]

I would also love to see all those bail bonds business move away from Houston Ave. It really makes the area look like crap. 

[terra002]

Ross, you dont really make a point. I presented a senario, When they are released and don't have a place to go, They end up in downtown streets. I'm aware many of them have a place to go upon their release, however, many do not.   Yes, it is a fact that most homeless have some sort of mental illness and/or drug addiction. Not quote sure how that relates to the post. 

[IronTiger]

Ross, you dont really make a point. I presented a senario, When they are released and don't have a place to go, They end up in downtown streets. I'm aware many of them have a place to go upon their release, however, many do not.   Yes, it is a fact that most homeless have some sort of mental illness and/or drug addiction. Not quote sure how that relates to the post. 

 

First off, the jail is a county jail, and not for ex-cons (jail and prison are not interchangeable terms). Secondly, every major metropolitan city in America has some degree of a homeless problem. San Francisco, New York City, Chicago, Philly, St. Louis, Dallas, Detroit, New Orleans, etc. are all no exception (or have it worse). Thirdly, the jail is in a rather good place from a logistics standpoint, it's outside of downtown from a physical sense, though the courthouse is, and the walkway means that resources don't have be wasted as cop cars transport inmates to and fro.

[Sunstar]

The only way I could see the jails being moved is for a new stadium proposal. They seem to be able to move heaven and earth for those. It could be like AT&T park in San Francisco, but instead of building it along San Francisco Bay, it would be built along Buffalo Bayou. They could incorporate some of the building in the design, maybe nickname it something like "the Big House." Kayakers could float around the bayou waiting for Carlos Correa to hit one our of the park. 

 

 

 

[PeopleAreStrange]

Whenever I walk past the two cheap food stores on Main St, I'm baffled at how may homeless people congrigate at them.

 

I don't see large groups of homeless people like that in other parts of downtown Houston or in other large downtowns.

[Montrose1100]

What would be the cost of something like this, and where would they go? Wouldn't they have to move the courthouses too?

[terra002]

The cost would be high, but could be offset by the profit from the sale of the property. I dont believe they would need to move the courthouses, only need to find a new way to transport inmates from the courthouse to the jail. 

[Sparrow]

Well, obviously its not on an island, so that doesnt hold any water.

 

Well, actually... when they get around to building the North Canal it kinda will be surrounded by water on all sides and kinda will be an island...

[Sparrow]

The only way I could see the jails being moved is for a new stadium proposal. They seem to be able to move heaven and earth for those. It could be like AT&T park in San Francisco, but instead of building it along San Francisco Bay, it would be built along Buffalo Bayou. They could incorporate some of the building in the design, maybe nickname it something like "the Big House." Kayakers could float around the bayou waiting for Carlos Correa to hit one our of the park. 

 

 

 

 

Brilliant.

 

Only thing going against this would be the westward field orientation. As it is now, MMP is the only stadium in MLB that has even a slight westward bias. IIRC the long term aim (aside from flood management) is to create a touristy area, similar to San Antonio's Riverwalk, along the North and/or South canal projects. What better way to push that goal along than to build a stadium along the waterfront? Just two short decades from now MMP will be as old as the Astrodome was when we stopped using it.

[gmac]

At the risk of sounding harsh... this is one of the dumbest ideas I have heard. Just because you don't want your precious senses assaulted by the lower echelons of society doesn't mean the jail and related structures should be shoved into a different part of town.

 

Why should those people have to put up with the issues you decry? Just because you want a pristine downtown where you can sip coffee and eat trendy dishes in sidewalk cafes while you pretend Houston is the Left Bank? YGBFKM.

 

The current set-up is probably as efficient as it could be in a city this size.

[IronTiger]

At the risk of sounding harsh... this is one of the dumbest ideas I have heard. Just because you don't want your precious senses assaulted by the lower echelons of society doesn't mean the jail and related structures should be shoved into a different part of town.

 

Why should those people have to put up with the issues you decry? Just because you want a pristine downtown where you can sip coffee and eat trendy dishes in sidewalk cafes while you pretend Houston is the Left Bank? YGBFKM.

 

The current set-up is probably as efficient as it could be in a city this size.

 

While I have to wince at the fact that this reminds me of my idealistic/dumb posts from another era (the last time I remember doing that was something regarding tubing on the bayous), I feel that OP has screwed up by hinging their argument on something irrelevant ("the jail is the cause for the homeless", etc.) and attempted to call out others who call BS on that.

 

FACT #1: The jail is still across the bayou, and not technically in downtown at all.

FACT #2: While I hate driving around in it, downtown is still nice. Go have a beer at the Flying Saucer. Visit the library on a weekday. Those things I have actually done.

FACT #3: If you really strive for that "clean urbanism" that TV, movies, and marketing materials have taught you, there are a number of nice outdoor malls in the suburbs that you may find more toward your liking.

[UtterlyUrban]

I live downtown.

I have zero issue with the jail or the federal pen being where they are.

[samagon]

Ross, you dont really make a point. I presented a senario, When they are released and don't have a place to go, They end up in downtown streets. I'm aware many of them have a place to go upon their release, however, many do not.   Yes, it is a fact that most homeless have some sort of mental illness and/or drug addiction. Not quote sure how that relates to the post. 

 

if they don't have a place to go when they get out, they probably didn't have a place to go when they went in. what's your point?

 

Do jails not have programs to try and help people come out on their feet? Is jail just a place for people to go get 3 squares a day and recreate the rest of the time?

 

I don't know a lot about jail so I can't really answer.

 

I do know once they are out, there are a lot of services to help people get out of homelessness all around downtown, perhaps the issue here isn't that the jail is in the wrong place, but that these homeless services are. So maybe we shouldn't move the jail, but the goal should to move one of these programs to help the homeless closer to the jail exits.

[terra002]

The main concern is that we're wasting prime bayou real estate on a jail. It does bring a negative element to the area, but that's not the focus. 

[samagon]

if the concern is bayou real estate use, there's a lot more bayou than this 3 block stretch of bayou.

 

bang for the buck wise, there's so much bayou in the east end that can be transformed for so much cheaper, and without having to relocate parts of our government that actually work pretty efficiently in their current configuration.

[Fringe]

Move it to Gunspoint mall. Half the criminals seem to be in that area anyway. 

[cloud713]

I was driving through the courts district of downtown today thinking to myself how perfect that area would be for residential. Most of the streets are narrowed to 2 lanes in that part of downtown already, ideal for pedestrian activity/street crossings. Not to mention Buffalo Bayou..

Obviously the courts/bail bonds places would have to be relocated/the area cleaned up. But that's basically the point of this thread anyways.. I just figured the land where the courts are have just as much potential as the jail site across the bayou.

Maybe relocate the courts to the north of the jail/south of i10, where that little warehouse district is, so the courts can still be accessible by the jail?

[Houston19514]

I was driving through the courts district of downtown today thinking to myself how perfect that area would be for residential. Most of the streets are narrowed to 2 lanes in that part of downtown already, ideal for pedestrian activity/street crossings. Not to mention Buffalo Bayou..

Obviously the courts/bail bonds places would have to be relocated/the area cleaned up. But that's basically the point of this thread anyways.. I just figured the land where the courts are have just as much potential as the jail site across the bayou.

Maybe relocate the courts to the north of the jail/south of i10, where that little warehouse district is, so the courts can still be accessible by the jail?

 

If there's any idea in the world less likely to happen within any foreseeable time horizon than relocating the jails, relocating the courthouses is surely it.  Both ideas are very expensive solutions in search of a problem.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Houston19514

[cloud713]

Haha yeah too true. Just figured I'd add my fantastical idea to the thread of ideas that will probably never happen.. Hopefully they can recreate that style streetscape in the southeast part of downtown.. I wonder if there are any plans to make that area more pedestrian friendly for the new residents..

[cspwal]

A complete streets renovation along Lee land might help - it's not a major thoroughfare, and would go along a lot of the residential 

[infinite_jim]

The jail could be moved if the County Records Storage Bldg was demo'd and a mid-rise replacement bldg could consolidate the jail program with the records storage. I seem to recall that this bldg was originally a jail too but was condemned but cannot verify this.

[cspwal]

 

 

The 850,000 square feet (79,000 m²) 1301 Franklin facility opened on September 13, 1982 ... with 13 stories and a basement, had the HCSO's administrative offices ... and had the capacity to house around 4,000 inmates.^[16] After the opening of the 1200 Jail on January 23, 2003, the former Franklin facility was no longer used as a jail.^[10] 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_County_Sheriff%27s_Office_(Texas)#Former_facilities 

 

The current jails hold 9,370 inmates total.

 

There's a reason there are more than one jail building - that's a lot of beds

[IronTiger]

The jail could be moved if the County Records Storage Bldg was demo'd and a mid-rise replacement bldg could consolidate the jail program with the records storage. I seem to recall that this bldg was originally a jail too but was condemned but cannot verify this.

OP would like to see the jail deleted from downtown altogether.

[Nate99]

Prison ships down by the turning basin, shuttle boats up the bayou to court. Or, build a jail platform off Morgan's Point in the bay and make our very own Riker's Island.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Nate99

[mollusk]

The jail could be moved if the County Records Storage Bldg was demo'd and a mid-rise replacement bldg could consolidate the jail program with the records storage. I seem to recall that this bldg was originally a jail too but was condemned but cannot verify this.

 

That building was built as the county jail in the 70s in response to inmate litigation, gaining the nickname "Carl Bue Hilton" in honor of the Federal judge presiding over that case.  And yes, it didn't take too many decades for it to no longer be a viable jail facility.  IIRC, it even ended up spawning its own inmate litigation.  

[MaggieMay]

At the risk of sounding harsh... this is one of the dumbest ideas I have heard. Just because you don't want your precious senses assaulted by the lower echelons of society doesn't mean the jail and related structures should be shoved into a different part of town.

 

Why should those people have to put up with the issues you decry? Just because you want a pristine downtown where you can sip coffee and eat trendy dishes in sidewalk cafes while you pretend Houston is the Left Bank? YGBFKM.

 

The current set-up is probably as efficient as it could be in a city this size.

Last time I had jury duty I was impressed by the setup.  Potential jurors wait in neat little auditoria, underground but lit with filtered daylight.  Free WiFi & a snackbar made the wait convenient--until most of us were told we weren't needed & could leave. (We could either pick up our tiny checks or have the funds contributed to various charities--who take checks to the bank any more?)

 

From the street, the jury duty room looks like a pavilion set in a garden. Tunnels take jurors to the various courts without leading them through the streets. The entire courthouse system--including the imposing Original Courthouse--takes up many blocks & is not going anywhere. 

 

Are there people in jail who should not be?  Are mental health services inadequate? Probably. But these are societal problems, not to be solved in this forum.  In the meantime, the best way to deal with the homeless downtown is to outnumber them. With people living there (in those many new projects going up) or just hanging out before we continue our commute.   

 

The Big Bus Overhaul lets me walk through a few blocks of famous skyscrapers to catch light rail at the Central Station. If I reverse the route home (there are alternates if I'm not in a hurry) I can catch the bus at Franklin & Main--with the option of getting a drink & a snack at any number of fine establishments within a couple of blocks.

 

The old commute involved Bell Station, where I had to walk around people sleeping on the sidewalk in the morning. Not scary, just sad.  This thread began with "Let's Move the Jail" but the OP made the link between those unlovely buildings & the street people.  No link having been proven, I've chosen to vote for continual improvement of the City & the ability to enjoy it even before perfection is achieved.