geauxtigers Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hi everyone, I'm new to Houston and came across this forum while looking for information on the historic district - I hope you don't mind the invasion of your board! My husband and I are recent transplants from Louisiana, and we really like the Heights. Can anyone tell me what the deal is with non-contributing structures? I'd like a non-real-estate industry perspective.We don't have any interest in a restoration project (we have no experience with historical preservation) but we would like to build a 2800-3000 sq. foot "new old house." We want to build something that fits in with the neighborhood, but the guidelines linked from HAHC's website are really confusing (for example, lists "greek revival" style houses as "traditional" for the area, when I was under the impression from my digging around that wouldn't be an option). Can anyone who has been through the process recently tell me what the deal is? Could we tear down a non-contributing property in poor condition without too many hoops? If you are non-contributing, do you have the same materials issues (no hardie, for example)? I've had people tell me conflicting things on both.We'd also consider buying if we fell in love with something, but in our experience lately the new or updated homes have been enormous (3500+) or plain weird (the camelback thing). I realize that's largely a function of economics since the land value is so high, but we think we can make it work since I just want to be in line with comps - I don't need to make a profit. And yes, I realize that it could take a small miracle to find a place to build - we're just going to give it a shot and change the game plan if it's not looking feasible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 http://mycity.houstontx.gov/public/that should bring up a map, you can overlay the historic districts, if you build outside of those districts, you'll not have to follow their guidelines/restrictions, and you'll still be in the heights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Agree with samagon. Though the historic district supporters will try to suggest that dealing with the City and HAHC is like walking through daisies, it is not. First, getting permission to tear down a structure is like pulling teeth. Then, you have to get approved for the new build. Better to find a lot or a dump outside the districts and do whatever you like. Leave the historic districts to those stupid enough not to ask questions before they buy.You can also see the historic district boundaries here...http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/HistoricPres/hist_dist.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksmu Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I agree with those above, its not a simple process to tear down in the historic districts and then you have to build your new house to their standards which are very subjective...if they like you, then you could have an easy time of it, if they dislike you or your project, you could be in for a long ride....There are still quite a few properties in the Heights, especially the area West of Heights Blvd that are not in the Heights historic district that are for sale.. and you are still smack dab in the middle of the Heights...Land values in the non-historic areas are up a bit though since the ordinance passed so you should expect that a 6600sqft lot capable of building your 3000sqft house will likely run you somewhere between $260,000 and $300,000 depending on your neighbors, and then you should expect about $7500 to remove the old house. Also if you have kids the schools in Heights west are not up to snuff compared to the East side of the boulevard....just something to think about as well.Otherwise there are quite a few places to choose from still...with all the BS that is the districts it is just much easier to buy around them....If all of the negatives of the Historic Districts come true, you will see better values based on the fact that your not in the districts, and if the bad things about the districts turn out to not matter, then you will be close enough for it to benefit you as well...the true effect of the historic districts will be difficult to gauge accurately as the properties outside of the districts will still have an effect on those inside it....a rising tide floats all boats and whatnot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanith27 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 As a new parent I've also noticed those areas that are zoned to Harvard or Travis have an uptick in prices as well. Thats not to say some big pricey homes aren't found outside the zone, they certainly are, but this is another variable that seems to quietly be causing prices to move upward in certain parts of the Heights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 This message board is teaming with people who strongly opposed the historic ordinance and cannot get over the fact that the historic ordinance really isn't that bad. Take everything said about the historic ordinance on this message board with several grains of salt. If the building has been designated as a non-contributing structure, the commission must approve an application to demolish the building:Sec. 33-248. Same--Demolition of noncontributing structure.The director shall issue a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of anoncontributing structure upon determining that the building, structure or object forwhich the certificate of appropriateness is requested was identified as a noncontributingstructure upon the designation of the historic district in which it is located.You do have to get a certificate of appropriatenees, but the commission is required to approve it for a non-contributing structure. So, it is an extra bureaucratic step, but there is no risk. Use redscare's link to determine whether a particular property is in the district, and, if so, whether it is noncontributing and can be demolished. You can also use this link to see what is available for sale in each historic district: http://www.har.com/houston-historic-districts/default.cfm. You can also make an appointment to meet with someone from the commission before you start a project and submit permits. This is an important step to help manage your expectations and develop a good rapore with the commission. The commission has approved lots of new construction in the Heights. You may not get to do everything you want. But, if you are willing to make some compromises, you will get through the process without much trouble. Compared to what people have to go through in places like Boston, San Fran, NY, etc., the HAHC is a breeze. If you are doing a new build, you can use hardi-plank and new windows, but will probably have to do double hung windows on portions of the home visible from the street. Greek Revival is identified in the design manual as existing in the Heights, but rare. A lot of the new builds have had elements of Greek Revival because it is easy to build a big box with a Greek Revival front facade that will maximize sq footage on a smaller lot. I suspect that the HAHC does not want to see this design proliferate any further in the historic districts as it has already displaced a lot of the original craftsman architecture. If Greek Revival is your thing, there are a lot of them being built outside the historic districts. You may not even need to go through the trouble of finding land and a builder.Best thing to do is to start interviewing builders and realtors to get an idea of what is really possible. Realtors from Boulevard Realty and Circa Realty were very outspoken against the historic ordinance. Bring a salt jar with you when you talk with them (see grain of salt reference above). Greenwood King has a lot of properties in the Heights, but tends to work more on resale than new builds. But they do have realtors with a lot of experience in the Heights. There is also a guy with Martha Turner who does a lot of work on new builds in the Heights. Builders are a dime a dozen in the Heights. Lucas Craftsmanship is a great place to start. They do a lot of work in and out of the historic districts. High quality custom work. Beware of builders who have put up a lot of the same new construction in the Heights if you are looking to build in a historic district. They may not be the best ones to try to get a design approved as they have developed their business model on a limited set of plans. For other builders, just drive around and take a look at what is getting built. If you see something you like, call the number on the sign. These are the people who will be able to give you the best information on what is possible in the Heights right now. Lastly, it is a big seller's market in the Heights right now and it is only going to get worse as many areas are getting filled in with residents who intend to stay. If you limit yourself to a new build, it may take a very long time to find a property that you can build on, and you will be competing with a lot of builders to get that property. Renovating an existing building is expensive and not easy, but there are a lot of opportunities to renovate. Bungalow Revival and Lucas Craftsmanship are both excellent at renovations. At least keep an open mind about as an option. I have seen renovations in the Heights that were such a transformation that they may as well have been new builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angostura Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 This is typical of what you're looking at in terms of price for a "standard" 6600 s.f. lot, in the Heights, with alley access, outside the historic districts. (I'd put a priority on alley access, since every s.f. of driveway is one less s.f. of back yard.)Market price on a ~3600 s.f. house on a 6600 s.f. is probably around $800k. There are very few examples of new(ish) built houses smaller than 3000 s.f. on a full-size lot. This one is billed as a remodel but it was essentially a teardown; only the facade is original. On a smaller lot (say 4400 s.f.), you're looking at mid to high 400's for a little over 2000 s.f. to low 600's for a little under 3000 s.f. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksmu Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Ive got a 6600 sqft lot and a 3100sq ft house with a driveway and a pool - and HCAD seems to think its built out of gold...Im just hoping that when its time to sell that the new buyers agree with HCAD. I did not fight my appraisal for the first time this year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geauxtigers Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 Thanks so much for all the information! We'll have to just sit down and talk with some realtors - we've just started looking so I hadn't wanted to waste anyone's time until we were more serious. This was really helpful - I appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights_yankee Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Basically what it comes down to is: if you want to build a new home, look outside of the HDs. There are plenty of lots or tear downs available. Good luck and welcome to the neighborhood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 This message board is teaming with people who strongly opposed the historic ordinance and cannot get over the fact that the historic ordinance really isn't that bad. Take everything said about the historic ordinance on this message board with several grains of salt.It isn't "THAT" bad... just kinda bad (which to me is THAT bad, s3mh thinks it is okay to be just kinda bad). Enough bad to warrant looking outside of the districts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwki Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Hello geaux. I would like to join in and welcome yall to Houston and HAIF. We moved from Louisiana to Norhill 20 years ago and fell in love with the people and the city. The neighborhood has many new homes now, but the people are still very friendly compared to your basic gated community. I highly recommend a front porch no matter build or buy. One of the important things to consider on the whole HAHC thing is the type of home owner you are. That is, do you hire contractors for home improvement projects or do you enjoy or doing the work yourself and maybe some skilled journeymen? I was watching the HAHC videos online, and this one do-it-yourselfer was getting torched by those people. The guy was just trying to do what he could afford, fixing up a rundown house and going before the HAHC himself, and it was pitiful what they did to him, such as making him rip out some new porch columns because they "thought" it wasn't on the original and trying to make him prove the prior existence....that was it for me and the HAHC.To help you make a decision on new builds in and out of the districts, make a list of recent major construction homes in both areas and take a driving tour. You will notice a difference. Norhill south of 11th and north of White Oak between Michaux and Studewood is unencumbered and has seen much activity over the last three years, 6 1/2, 7th, 7 1/2 is a good sampling. Then go look at the new stuff in Heights HD, they are easy to pick out. If you dont mind the HAHC "look", then you may be ok in the district. But outside the district you can build what you want within the deed restrictions, which are fairly benign.I know you will love the neighborhood. Despite and because of all the opinionating on this board, you'll likely love this forum as well. Only once did I read out-of-bounds threats made here wrt the districts, and that was from a notorious troll anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I was watching the HAHC videos online, and this one do-it-yourselfer was getting torched by those people. The guy was just trying to do what he could afford, fixing up a rundown house and going before the HAHC himself, and it was pitiful what they did to him, such as making him rip out some new porch columns because they "thought" it wasn't on the original and trying to make him prove the prior existence....that was it for me and the HAHC. Reminds me of a certain movie plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It isn't "THAT" bad... just kinda bad (which to me is THAT bad, s3mh thinks it is okay to be just kinda bad). Enough bad to warrant looking outside of the districts...I actually think it's a good thing that S3MH has offered more than we did regarding the difficulty of building in a HD.Where all we offered was, "it's really not easy, don't do it". There's nothing like a good old wall of text to glaze over the eyes and help someone realize, hey, those guys weren't kidding, it's not that easy to build in a HD!S3MH very likely offered a valuable service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Renovating an existing building is expensive and not easy, but there are a lot of opportunities to renovate. Bungalow Revival and Lucas Craftsmanship are both excellent at renovations. At least keep an open mind about as an option. I have seen renovations in the Heights that were such a transformation that they may as well have been new builds. This cracks me up. Is this what we gave up our property rights for? So that builders can rip an old house back to its studs, rebuild it 3 times bigger, and call it an 'historic renovation'? And, there are people who would distinguish that from new construction?Geauxtigers, we certainly do not wish to run you off. But, fwki's post is dead on. If you dump a load of cash on an architect and builder who will certainly charge you for their time convincing first the HAHC, then Permitting that their design passes muster, then you can build in the HDs. But remember, only non-contributing structures can be removed. The HAHC redesignated numerous structures as contributing when they redid the ordinance. Previously, badly mangled remodels were considered at best, 'potentially contributing' structures. The new ordinance eliminated that designation and simply labeled every old house a contributing structure. You will likely find that you'll get more bang for your buck...and a helluva better looking house...by building in the neighborhoods that abut the historic districts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geauxtigers Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 RedScare, I laughed when I read that as well - if it looks like it "may as well have been a new build" I don't understand the point of a "renovation." That's been our primary issue finding a previously built home in the districts - I pretty much refuse to take on the burdens involved with living in a contributing structure, and I think the camelback thing is just not my style. You certainly haven't run me off - I think we are pretty set on the Heights - and while we will use a builder if we don't end up finding a house we love in the next year (we've been interviewing a few) my initial inclination that the historic district wasn't worth the hassle has pretty much been confirmed, so I appreciate the advice! The subjectivity involved in the process would make me crazy - I don't so much mind the rules, as I would be choosing to live within them, but I do mind that I have no way of knowing for sure what I can and can't do before spending quite a bit of cash on an architect.Fwki - that's really sad about that homeowner. I feel like the burden should be the opposite - the HAHC should have to definitively show that something did NOT exist (such as the columns in your example)to force something to be ripped out rather than the homeowner having to prove that it did exist, particularly in a situation like that where the essence of the structure wasn't changed. The city is in a much better position to access archives and such than your average homeowner - that's an incredible burden to put on someone. And if they can't find evidence either way, ties should fall to the homeowner. If these "renovations" are ok, and something like that is not, I'll have to agree that this is not for me - I admit that I don't tend to do well in situations where I feel like someone is exerting unreasonable authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 This cracks me up. Is this what we gave up our property rights for? So that builders can rip an old house back to its studs, rebuild it 3 times bigger, and call it an 'historic renovation'? And, there are people who would distinguish that from new construction?Geauxtigers, we certainly do not wish to run you off. But, fwki's post is dead on. If you dump a load of cash on an architect and builder who will certainly charge you for their time convincing first the HAHC, then Permitting that their design passes muster, then you can build in the HDs. But remember, only non-contributing structures can be removed. The HAHC redesignated numerous structures as contributing when they redid the ordinance. Previously, badly mangled remodels were considered at best, 'potentially contributing' structures. The new ordinance eliminated that designation and simply labeled every old house a contributing structure. You will likely find that you'll get more bang for your buck...and a helluva better looking house...by building in the neighborhoods that abut the historic districts.Like I said, this message board is filled with people who tried desparately to defeat the historic ordinance and cannot deal with the fact that they lost. Huge compromises were made with opponents to make the preservation ordinance very permissive so people could generally build as big as they wanted as long as they retained the street elevation of the house. But opponents now want to throw that compromise back in the face of the people who made it by now criticizing renovations as going too far and not being true enough to original house. This is why you need to take what these people tell you with more than a grain of salt. They do not care about preserving historic homes in the Heights. They do not care about creating a fair historic preservation ordinance. They want to replace every historic building in the Heights with new construction because they either make money flipping houses or want to be able to let their house deteriorate and sell it as a tear down for lot value. They will say anything to try to get people on their side. During the debate over the ordinance, opponents claimed that the ordinace would dictate the placement of HVAC systems, what landscaping you could use and even the color you paint your house just because the ordinance did not expressly say that the historic commission could not require approval for those things (by the same force of logic the commission could require approval for dog breed because nothing says they cannot). They claimed that the Heights would quickly turn into a slum because no one would build in the districts and no one would ever remodel/renovate or even maintain their homes for fear of the historic commission. The fact is that the Heights has been booming since the ordinance was amended. Except for a bitter few in the Heights, everyone is happy with the amended ordinance. Builders/remodlers/renovators have all been able to get plans approved by the commission, most of the time with a unanimous approval. Harvard Heights Construction submits plans to the commission for free. The historic ordinance is a burden on those who build in the districts versus outside of the districts. But it is a very reasonable process that reasonable people can get through with little difficulty. If you build outside of the districts, you will be able to build whatever you want, but so will your neighbor. If you want a reasonably sized house (2800-3000 sq ft), you may easily end up next to a lot line to lot tine 4400 sq ft monstrosity of any imaginable architecture (modern, fake New Orleans, Spanish mission, or whatever--just drive around the Heights and you will see many example of these sore thumbs that have been built over the years). If you build inside the district, you will have some minimal oversight on what you can do, but will have the protection of knowing that the neighboring properties will also be held to the same standard. What ever you decide to do, be very careful with the advice you get from people who opposed the ordinance. In fact, ask them up front whether they opposed the amendments to the historic ordinance and whether they can still advise you objectively in light of the position they have taken on the ordinance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 insert factless opinion hereWOW. So much misinformation, blatant lies, and opinions attempted to be passed as facts in this post I don't even know where to start.I would advise not living in a Historic District just because you run the risk of being s3mh's neighbor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksmu Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 S3MH is so blindly in support of the ordinance she fails to see the potential problems with it....there are those, myself included, who may have exaggerated the points we made, but the fact remains that the specific wording of the text in the ordinance gives the HAHC wide latitude to determine what they approve of and what they do not. It is not an objective ordinance, it is a subjective one. You are at their mercy....good mood/bad mood, its all a crap shoot. With the quantity of nice lots that are unrestricted and still located right smack in the middle of the Heights (sometimes even on the same block) if you are planning on new construction I have no idea why anyone would intentionally subject themselves to the opinions of some subjective board with the largest investment in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I do believe s3mh has finally lost it. Anyone considering building or renovating a house within a historic district need only ask themselves one question. How reasonable do you think a commission who holds similar views to s3mh is? How easy would that commission be to deal with? If, after reading s3mh's comments, if you believe that going before the HAHC would be an easy experience, then by all means, buy that historic district house.You've been warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwki Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Like I said, this message board is filled with people who tried desparately to defeat the historic ordinance and cannot deal with the fact that they lost.......Classic troll intro intended to incite, not even clever anymore, and the rest of the post....what was that?. I agree this poster has lost the plot completely or accidentally logged on to HAIF instead of World Of Warcraft. How in the world was that paranoid rant ever going to help a potential new neighbor? At least the investigators now have a sufficient repository of posts to tie-in the next Ted Kaczynski manifesto. Don't worry Geaux, at least in Texas the cows haven't gone mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I do believe s3mh has finally lost it. Anyone considering building or renovating a house within a historic district need only ask themselves one question. How reasonable do you think a commission who holds similar views to s3mh is? How easy would that commission be to deal with? If, after reading s3mh's comments, if you believe that going before the HAHC would be an easy experience, then by all means, buy that historic district house.You've been warned.For some reason I think of the scene from Princess Bride where the man in black is dueling Vizzini to a battle of wits, and Vizzini is explaining his rationale for which cup to choose...But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Why can't we all just live next to each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 we can, as long as we live next to each other in the style s3mh approves of. = ] /troll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC Texan2 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 As Redscare implied, clearly the inventory of houses for sale in the districts is just piling on up! "For sale" signs are everywhere. Or else maybe we can't tell since the roving bands of historical commission members are hiding them. Try to keep the children off the streets due to all the trucks streaming toward the exits. You've been warned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Like I said, this message board is filled with people who tried desparately to defeat the historic ordinance and cannot deal with the fact that they lost. [...] Except for a bitter few in the Heights, everyone is happy with the amended ordinance. You know, we've put up with your nonsense for a long time. I think it's time for you to move on. I, for one, am sick of your crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 As Redscare implied, clearly the inventory of houses for sale in the districts is just piling on up!  "For sale" signs are everywhere.  Or else maybe we can't tell since the roving bands of historical commission members are hiding them. You must forgive my ignorance on the subject, but aren't unapproved yard signs against the ordinance? Maybe it's just political signs that aren't historically accurate that get removed? Maybe these people who are fleeing should find some historically accurate for sale signs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So... what if I lived in the historical district before it was designated a historical district... could I still renovate or modify my house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So... what if I lived in the historical district before it was designated a historical district... could I still renovate or modify my house?Only with HAHC approval, which means it would probably be easier to have a developer do the work for you as they give a hard time to homeowners. So hopefully you didn't plan on doing the rennovations yourself to save some money (which is historically how homeowners in the Heights have done things...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Was there a vote or some kind of public meeting to determine the boundaries of this so called historic district or are they arbitrary? What if I didnt agree to be in this historic district? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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