High Street: Mixed-Use Development At 4410 Westheimer Rd.

[Houston19514]

Sorry if this is the wrong thread. I heard yesterday that the Westcreek Project is effectively "on hold" for at least three years while the developers rethink their plan. Westcreek Village are continuing to lease apartments, and have told their tennants they are safe for three years. Another development disappointment. I have noticed that the tarp-like fencing is down from where the car dealership was that is the proposed High Street development site.

Does anyone have any new/additional information on these projects?

Does "Westcreek Project" = River Oaks District? The developer of River Oaks District is quoted in today's Wall Street Journal to the effect that groundbreaking for River Oaks District will be in 2008. That is only Phase 1. There is a "potential" Phase 2 that would take out a LOT more apartments to the north of Bettis Dr. Could those be the ones being assured they are "safe" for three years?

Edited May 30, 2007 by Houston19514

[TheNiche]

Does "Westcreek Project" = River Oaks District? The developer of River Oaks District is quoted in today's Wall Street Journal to the effect that groundbreaking for River Oaks District will be in 2008. That is only Phase 1. There is a "potential" Phase 2 that would take out a LOT more apartment to the north of Bettis Dr.

Westcreek = River Oaks District = Oaks District

This is consistent with my prior knowledge...but again, if they backed off for several years, it would not be surprising.

[woolie]

Check it out. Impressive, no?

You completely missed my point. Anyway, here's an exercise. Detroit hemorrhaged when the domestic auto industry collapsed. What will happen to Houston when there's no more oil to drill or refine?

[MidtownCoog]

How old are you Woolie?

School out for summer?

[lockmat]

How old are you Woolie?

School out for summer?

That's a useful post.

[woolie]

MidtownCoog is internet tough guy.

Since you want to know, I'm 24, and leaving Houston as soon as I finish grad school.

Edited May 30, 2007 by woolie

[Ethanra]

You completely missed my point. Anyway, here's an exercise. Detroit hemorrhaged when the domestic auto industry collapsed. What will happen to Houston when there's no more oil to drill or refine?

Many of the companies are energy companies and not just oil. I've read how many are researching in different forms of energy. Also the energy area is not 100 % of the work force. In the 80's it was approx. 80% of the work force and now it is less then 50%. Even if Houston's work force was 100% oil, your right; Houston would disappear when their is no more oil to drill or refine. Luckily that won't happen for at least another 500 years.....

Edited May 30, 2007 by Ethanra

[woolie]

Luckily that won't happen for at least another 500 years.....

Not even CERA makes that claim.

[woolie]

No one else is sick of being promised this:

and getting this instead?

So excuse me for lack of faith. It's clear no one with the power to build anything worth caring about is interested in building anything worth caring about. Seems that talking about walkable environments in Houston is the equivalent of snake handling and drinking arsenic.

Edited May 30, 2007 by woolie

[TheNiche]

You completely missed my point. Anyway, here's an exercise. Detroit hemorrhaged when the domestic auto industry collapsed. What will happen to Houston when there's no more oil to drill or refine?

That is a physical and economic impossibility. As the supply of oil becomes more constrained, the price will rise. As the price rises, less oil is consumed (in the long term, although in the short term, we get an economic boom!). You will note that good vintages of bottled wine become more expensive as they age, but that they are rarely depleted in their entirety. To the extent that those vintages become extinct, it is usually a result of warfare having destroyed an inventory or because units of wine are measured in discrete terms, such that a fractional portion of a bottle cannot be consumed.

The market for oil is not precisely the same as vintage wine, of course, but the conclusion is nearly the same...except of course that there is no perfect substitute for wine at any price, but that there are perfect substitutes for oil in most of the uses that it is put to. Beyond certain price thesholds, demand drops off precipitously in the long run as alternative fuels become viable--and that's assuming that the level of current technology remains constant, which it won't. That is the true danger to Houston's economy, is that oil becomes too expensive to use as a fuel, not that we "run out of it."

And the answer to your question, btw, is that we will have a grand excess of economic capital that is spatially fixed--it cannot be moved to Dallas, Chicago, NYC, etc. In order to lease it out, the rents will fall, inducing new business activity of a diversified nature, although admittedly not without some short-run pains. This is exactly what happened in the 90's and it will happen again. The reason that it isn't happening in Detroit is that the climate sucks. There is a reason that the sunbelt as a whole is flourishing, and here's a hint: it just might have something to do with its name.

Edited May 30, 2007 by TheNiche

[MidtownCoog]

Just what the world needs. Another 24 year old grad student with no work experience. Damn book smarts.

We've had this debate a million times. There is a huge difference between oil, energy prodcuts, chemicals and energy transportation infrastructure.

Houston has them all.

Anyone who thinks Houston is 100% oil watches too much TV.

[Houston19514]

MidtownCoog is internet tough guy.

Since you want to know, I'm 24, and leaving Houston as soon as I finish grad school.

Why wait? Surely, you could find a grad school in a city more to your liking. ;-)

[RedScare]

Why wait? Surely, you could find a grad school in a city more to your liking. ;-)

And, your deductive reasoning skills evidenced in this thread, you will be eminently employable once you graduate.

[woolie]

stuff about oil

You left out the most fun part by assuming oil is a perfect commodity. The geopolitics of oil complicates any economic model like this. The US will go to war to capture remaining oil resources before the price gets too high. The resource war will be considered a wise investment. It'll be viewed as having a better return on investment than changing our infrastructure to reduce dependence on petroleum.

Anyway, color me skeptical about alternative fuels. Corn ethanol has an EROEI of 1.3 and is really just an ag subsidy. Coal-to-liquid is an environmental cluster____. Biodiesel is marginally better. Sugarcane ethanol is realistic and has a positive EROEI but doesn't grow so well in most of the US. Everything else is hypothetical at this point: cellulosic ethanol, algal biodiesel, nuclear-powered DME production, etc.

Why wait? Surely, you could find a grad school in a city more to your liking. ;-)

I did want to leave, but my girlfriend still had 2 years left (1 year of BS, 1 year of MS)

Edited May 30, 2007 by woolie

[musicman]

No one else is sick of being promised this:

and getting this instead?

there's already a CVS downtown at main street square

[woolie]

Just what the world needs. Another 24 year old grad student with no work experience. Damn book smarts.

What kind of work experience are you talking about? A Ph.D. is based on the work you accomplish. The coursework is a minor component, at best.

We've had this debate a million times. There is a huge difference between oil, energy prodcuts, chemicals and energy transportation infrastructure.

Houston has them all, but they're all heavily dependent on the oil still flowing.

And, your deductive reasoning skills evidenced in this thread, you will be eminently employable once you graduate.

You're still my favorite here... Alright, I'm guilty of ranting a bit while waiting for my builds to complete, but it's just out of frustration with development in Houston.

there's already a CVS downtown at main street square

The illustration was inspired by the Elgin CVS thread. Developers put up renderings showing beautiful mixed-use centers, with wide sidewalks, structured parking, residential, etc. What we actually get is a suburban big box store surrounded by parking. I'm thinking more and more, the renderings are just for the press to get excited about.

Edited May 30, 2007 by woolie

[MidtownCoog]

I see how it's easy to get excited about renderings, but when you get down to it, how much time would have you spent in "High Street Houston"? I mean really. Do you shop that much?

I really didn't see it adding anything unique to Houston other than more traffic in an already gridlocked zone.

Same with CVS on Elgin. How can people get excited about a second rate pharmacy even if it would have been ped friendly?

I did want to leave, but my girlfriend still had 2 years left (1 year of BS, 1 year of MS)

No comment ;-)

[TheNiche]

You left out the most fun part by assuming oil is a perfect commodity. The geopolitics of oil complicates any economic model like this. The US will go to war to capture remaining oil resources before the price gets too high. The resource war will be considered a wise investment. It'll be viewed as having a better return on investment than changing our infrastructure to reduce dependence on petroleum.

Anyway, color me skeptical about alternative fuels. Corn ethanol has an EROEI of 1.3 and is really just an ag subsidy. Coal-to-liquid is an environmental cluster____. Biodiesel is marginally better. Sugarcane ethanol is realistic and has a positive EROEI but doesn't grow so well in most of the US. Everything else is hypothetical at this point: cellulosic ethanol, algal biodiesel, nuclear-powered DME production, etc.

War only makes the commodity scarcer and less dependable, causing the price to soar well beyond the level at which changing our infrastructure becomes a necessity, anyway. War is an implausible solution to resource depletion.

I agree that most alternative fuels are merely ag subsidies at present, but watch what happens if the price per barrel doubles or triples. It isn't likely to happen any time soon, but it isn't inconceivable in some scenarios if you assume that civilization completely stops investing in technological R&D, the oil industry halts all E&P, or if some dictator acquires a nuke and goes ape s***. My point being that there is a price threshold above which the subsidies are unnecessary.

Edited May 30, 2007 by TheNiche

[lockmat]

I see how it's easy to get excited about renderings, but when you get down to it, how much time would have you spent in "High Street Houston"? I mean really. Do you shop that much?

I really didn't see it adding anything unique to Houston other than more traffic in an already gridlocked zone.

Same with CVS on Elgin. How can people get excited about a second rate pharmacy even if it would have been ped friendly?

I'm pretty sure that the initial post that said the project was on hold was not High Street but another one.

[woolie]

I see how it's easy to get excited about renderings, but when you get down to it, how much time would have you spent in "High Street Houston"? I mean really. Do you shop that much?

Haha, alright. Personally, I wouldn't spend too much time there. Unless they had a really good, inexpensive restaurant like Niko Niko's. I'm not exactly their target market.

I really didn't see it adding anything unique to Houston other than more traffic in an already gridlocked zone.

Same with CVS on Elgin. How can people get excited about a second rate pharmacy even if it would have been ped friendly?

I hadn't considered the train tracks, you're right. But, traffic aside, uptown has fantastic potential for exactly this kind of development. It has the right "kind" of consumers in the area. (I am admittedly not a large consumer of clothes, fashionable stuff, useless crap, etc., kind of stuff that these developments like as tenants.)

The thing about CVS is this: it doesn't matter if it's a CVS or Burger King, or CostCo, or whatever. It's simply the construction of suburban-type structures in an area the city has bent-over-backwards to outfit for proper urban infrastructure. It's basically, "oh, hi, thanks for investing so much in this neighborhood. but we can't afford an architect, and our accountants say no risk is acceptable, so we're just going to use a standard acre-footprint design."

No comment ;-)

At least I was able to stay because there was an excellent graduate program here. The TMC is one of the few things about Houston that I think is exceptional, and that I would really miss elsewhere.

[Mister X]

Why don't you just put a bullet through your head and end your suffering? But seriously, this would be a much nicer city to live in if all the discontents with too much time on their hands were living in other towns. Woolie is full of crap. His school and his girlfriend might make him stay in a city he would rather leave, but they don't make him come to this forum to whine about his personal problems with delayed or cancelled projects. It's obvious that he's got Houston under his skin and isn't mature enough to know how to handle a setback or two. Grow up or move on. It's business as usual in Houston. Adults adapt and compromise. Babies just cry until someone shoves a pacifier in their face.

Not enough cranes in the city limits for you? Move to N.O. then you will really have a good reason to throw a cybernetic temper tantrom hissy fit.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Mister X

[TheNiche]

Why don't you just put a bullet through your head and end your suffering? And your idiotic rants.

Hey now...play nice.

Woolie may be largely ignorant of oil & gas economics or real estate finance, but he's not stupid. If you know better, then please say something constructive to help him understand.

Edited May 30, 2007 by TheNiche

[woolie]

Why don't you just put a bullet through your head and end your suffering? But seriously, this would be a much nicer city to live in if all the discontents with too much time on their hands were living in other towns. Woolie is full of crap. His school and his girlfriend might make him stay in a city he would rather leave, but they don't make him come to this forum to whine about his personal problems with delayed or cancelled projects. It's obvious that he's got Houston under his skin and isn't mature enough to know how to handle a setback or two. Grow up or move on. It's business as usual in Houston. Adults adapt and compromise. Babies just cry until someone shoves a pacifier in their face.

Not enough cranes in the city limits for you? Move to N.O. then you will really have a good reason to throw a cybernetic temper tantrom hissy fit.

*bang*

It's always the magic phrase, "I want to leave Houston" that lets the wolves out on this forum. No one would be here if they hadn't intertwined their city pride with their own identity. So to say you want to leave is akin to insulting someone's mother. Why, isn't Houston the greatest city on Earth? How can anyone complain about delayed projects -- they're just icing on top of perfection!

Edited May 30, 2007 by woolie

[lockmat]

Hey now...play nice.

Woolie may be ignorant of oil & gas economics, but he's not stupid. If you know better, then please say something constructive to help him understand.

"and your idiotic rants?" ha, where'd that come from?

on, nm. I saw he edited his post. guess that was it.

Edited May 30, 2007 by lockmat

[musicman]

The thing about CVS is this: it doesn't matter if it's a CVS or Burger King, or CostCo, or whatever. It's simply the construction of suburban-type structures in an area the city has bent-over-backwards to outfit for proper urban infrastructure. It's basically, "oh, hi, thanks for investing so much in this neighborhood. but we can't afford an architect, and our accountants say no risk is acceptable, so we're just going to use a standard acre-footprint design."

I believe you were the one that thought this was great urban development.

[woolie]

I believe you were the one that thought this was great urban development.

I still like the tin shacks. They remind me of British terraced housing.

Edited May 30, 2007 by woolie

[RedScare]

His school and his girlfriend might make him stay in a city he would rather leave, but they don't make him come to this forum to whine about his personal problems with delayed or cancelled projects.

I don't see anyone forcing you to read his rants, either. Whining is a two way street. If you cannot handle his whining, perhaps you should find another forum, as well. I hear dallasmetropolis is looking for new members...and they only talk nice, from what I'm told.

[Houston19514]

The thing about CVS is this: it doesn't matter if it's a CVS or Burger King, or CostCo, or whatever. It's simply the construction of suburban-type structures in an area the city has bent-over-backwards to outfit for proper urban infrastructure. It's basically, "oh, hi, thanks for investing so much in this neighborhood. but we can't afford an architect, and our accountants say no risk is acceptable, so we're just going to use a standard acre-footprint design."

What or who are you talking about? If the new midtown CVS is your issue, how exactly has the city "bent over backward..." when the building code still requires X number of on-site parking spots and 25 foot setbacks?

If the Costco at the former HISD site is the issue, that is a little disappointing. But I don't think it is going to be just a standard suburban Costco is it? I think there is still going to be some mixed-use there. In any event, that is one, ONE, of the many mixed use developments in various planning stages that has apparently disappointed. On what basis should we assume that City Centre, BLVD Place, West Street, River Oaks District, Houston Pavilions, High Street, and Regent Square will be equally disappointing?

The idea that developers pay to have extensive site-plans and renderings drawn up for urban mixed use districts just to excite the media is pretty comical, as is your statement that no developers are interested in developing such things in Houston. (Our problem right now might just be that too many developers are developing such projects, thus dividing the retailers among too many projects and making it a little more difficult to get any of them built. But in spite of that, West Street is already under construction, as is Houston Pavilions, and I believe City Centre; BLVD Place is slated to start construction this summer...)

I don't know what urban "nirvana" you are headed for after you graduate, but you might need to prepare to be disappointed.

[MidtownCoog]

Boston is his only hope. You "don't even need a caaar".

PM Kinkaid ASAP.

[Mister X]

Alright, maybe my post was a little ugly. Don't kill yourself woolie. You guys may know more about oil and gas economics than I do, but this city has still got a few good years left before it turns into Detroit. Negitive comments about Houston and dooms day senerios always bring out the btch in me. Don't let it add to your problems.

Houston is no flawless urban paradise and I doubt I will ever live to see it be, but it survived the last oil bust and has been growing at a faster pace than most cities in this country for the better part of its existance. There have been countless projects announced in the last 30 years that haven't been built or were scaled down. Yet somehow this city has continued to grow by leaps and bounds. High Street looks nice, but life will go on with out it. I wouldn't be freaking out over a delay or cancellation just yet. Someone else will announce something else tomorrow and MAYBE it will get built maybe not but Houston is smoking right now - be happy. When woolie moves, ten more will be here to take his place.