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groovehouse

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No offense, but I'm a bit leery of this picture and the linked website. I'll reserve judgement until a more credible news source picks it up.

A lot can be accomplished with Photoshop; and you can't believe everything you see on the Web.

Even if it turns out the picture is credible, I doubt it will change many minds.

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No offense, but I'm a bit leery of this picture and the linked website. I'll reserve judgement until a more credible news source picks it up.

A lot can be accomplished with Photoshop; and you can't believe everything you see on the Web.

Even if it turns out the picture is credible, I doubt it will change many minds.

As I should know, as I not only work with black and white photography and Photoshop. I take these things with a grain of salt.

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By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

CBS reported Wednesday night that it had obtained personal files from one of Bush's Texas commanders saying Bush discussed with him how to avoid drills during 1972. The report on "60 Minutes" said the files were from the personal records of Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.

In the memos, Killian complained of pressure from higher-ups to give Bush positive evaluations and said Bush talked about how to avoid taking a physical exam in 1972, when Bush eventually skipped six months of training and lost his pilot's wings for missing the exam.

After the broadcast, the White House, without comment, released to the news media two of the memos, one ordering Bush to report for his physical exam and the other suspending him from flight status.

This is one of the reasons why I don't have any confidence in Bush keeping the homeland safe. Not only is he not a responsible person, but he lies about it to this day. This is not the guy to protect the mainland. He couldn't even report to duty for a physical. It's no wonder he stayed away from DC on Sept. 11. The man has no courage. And they used to call his dad a wimp! The choice is easy for me. When under fire, Kerry demonstrated courage. Bush, on the other hand, read a book to some kids in Florida.

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Okay, Urbanlandscape....

how would YOU take that spin?

We have two opposing groups saying the other is lying about their military service.

One got shot at and wounded 3 times (and people question HOW he got his medals)

The other went to a National guard to learn how to fly planes instead of going overseas and then took a few MONTHS off and these allegations show up.

How would you spin it, hm?

FYI:

Please don't make your attacks personal. Keep to the facts.

Ricco

The other learned enough to

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Bush is not running on his war record. Kerry is running on his "war record." They showed video of him in "battle" in Vietnam at the convention. The first lines of his speech were, "Ladies and gentlemen my name is John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty." Kerry "opened the door" to Vietnam by bringing up his service.

However, before anyone puts words in my mouth -- I don't think that Bush was AWOL and I don't think that Kerry lied about any medals.

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I don't think either man is entirely clean in this matter.

But the major difference between Bush and Kerry at this time is the fact that Bush seems to have actually disobeyed a direct order.

That is something that a very serious accusation in the military.

Ricco

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I think the focus on Bush's war record has to do with the fact that his handlers constantly have to lay papers down wherever he goes and hope he doesn't go on the rug. He received all of these cushy assignments, and dealt with them all very ineptly while those around him have to cover for all of his faults. That's the story of his life.

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This is one of the reasons why I don't have any confidence in Bush keeping the homeland safe. Not only is he not a responsible person, but he lies about it to this day. This is not the guy to protect the mainland. He couldn't even report to duty for a physical. It's no wonder he stayed away from DC on Sept. 11. The man has no courage. And they used to call his dad a wimp! The choice is easy for me. When under fire, Kerry demonstrated courage. Bush, on the other hand, read a book to some kids in Florida.

Oh, I had missed this part. So what are you insinuating, that politicians knew about 9|11 before it happened?

The GOP and SwiftVets have been doing nothing but questioning Kerry's record.

Who said I liked them doing that?

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Developing news...

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?P...L20040909d.html

'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake

By Robert B. Bluey

CNSNews.com Staff Writer

September 09, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.

Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.

The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.

The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.

But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.

"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."

The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.

But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.

"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.

"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."

Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.

"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."

He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.

"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"

The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.

"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.

"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."

But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.

"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."

According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic."

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Oh, I had missed this part.  So what are you insinuating, that politicians knew about 9|11 before it happened?

Who said I liked them doing that?

Jumping to conclusions again? Anybody who followed the news on Sept. 11 knows that Bush was hiding in a bunker in the midwest most of the day. This as opposed to flying back to DC and showing the terrorists that he wasn't intimidated and on the run.

By the way, nobody has accused you of liking the Swiftvet ads. If you can find that in this post, then quote it.

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These four documents were released by the White House. If the White House is releasing fake documents then there is no end to Bush's stupidity.

The documents he is referring to were released by the "Texans for Truth" campaign.

In fact the very first line of this thread reads, "CBS reported Wednesday night that it had obtained personal files from one of Bush's Texas commanders.". Personal files from one of Bush's commanders does not mean from President Bush. It means from one of Bush's commanders!

Don't let your hatred for Bush blind your judgment.

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ABC News -- Bush Documents May Be Forged

Washington Post -- Experts Say Bush Documents Forged

** The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.

** The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.

** The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.

** The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas

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Yeah, I won't let my "hatred for bush" blind me to the fact that he stole the election with the help of his governor brother, lied to us about why we were going to war with iraq so him and his cronies could (and ARE, in case you're retarded) pad their pockets, is a complete doofus in charge of the most powerful country in the world embarrassing us to world leaders to no end (freedom fries, freedom toast), is constantly attacking kerrys war record when he himself was "in" the air national guard, which everyone knows is like being a security guard and calling yourself a police officer, and has got the country headed for another "great depression". Oh wait? Aren't these the reasons themselves that CAUSE people to "hate" bush? I swear these "Bush is awesome!" people sound like f----n broken records. "You hate bush! You hate bush! You hate bush! You hate bush! You hate bush! Wtf???? How is that even a counterpoint? This isn't even about the candidates anymore. Its turned into some little elementary playground battle. "Our club ("conservative" republicans) is better than your club ("liberal" democrats)!"

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Thank you for proving the "hate Bush" argument.

However, just because I accuse others of hating Bush doesn't mean I love him. I just like him marginally more than Kerry. I don't like the way Bush has handled a lot of things. He isn't perfect.

But that doesn't mean that we have to believe everything that is negative about Bush (or Kerry for that matter). Let's just think critically about these type of things.

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Look at everytime I said "hate" bush. See the quotation marks? Those mean I'm quoting someone. That means I didn't say I hate bush. That means someone else said that. You followin me? You pickin up what I'm puttin down? You catch my drift? I don't """"hate"""" bush, I just think he's a shitty president. Even so, I still don't see how me "hating" bush is a counterpoint even if I did hate him. ??????

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The documents he is referring to were released by the "Texans for Truth" campaign.

In fact the very first line of this thread reads, "CBS reported Wednesday night that it had obtained personal files from one of Bush's Texas commanders.". Personal files from one of Bush's commanders does not mean from President Bush. It means from one of Bush's commanders!

Don't let your hatred for Bush blind your judgment.

The White House obtained the documents from CBS and released them without comment. Such a move is going to support the fact that the documents are legitimate. So there's either a complete lack of oversight or complete stupidity at the White House.

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