curbur Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Rule of thumb is it costs twice as much to elevate and four times as much to tunnel. So instead of the original ~8 mile Red Line we could have had 4 miles elevated (UHD to Rice) or 2 miles of subway (UHD to McGowen). There's no question that either of those would have had fewer riders and therefore a lower benefit/cost ratio. As for syncing signals for the east-west lines, there's only so much that can be done without un-syncing the north-south streets. But yes, there are a lot of ways the Green and Purple Lines could have been designed better through Downtown. It'll eventually be redone when the density and transit use demands it, albeit it will be extremely costly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 It'll eventually be redone when the density and transit use demands it, albeit it will be extremely costly.Labor is a big reason, and land acquisition. But with oil dropping the latter price is decreasing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfastx Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I doubt there'd be "no question" that if it was tunneled or elevated for a short stretch there'd be fewer riders, in most cases grade separation increases ridership. Especially if it were integrated with the downtown tunnel system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieMay Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I doubt there'd be "no question" that if it was tunneled or elevated for a short stretch there'd be fewer riders, in most cases grade separation increases ridership. Especially if it were integrated with the downtown tunnel system. Houston's "tunnel system" is various basements, connected by slender tunnels built under the streets. It's also only open during Business Hours, 5 days a week. Real subways run through purpose-built tunnels. To go from the tunnel to the train, walk upstairs. (Or take an escalator.) Then go outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate99 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Drag racing the train to make a left turn on the next block adds just the right bit of competitive stimulation to start my day off right. If you travel down Capitol every morning and turn left on any of the southbound streets, you get to do this at least twice a week. I'm still waiting for an inspired train driver to try to make it close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Drag racing the train to make a left turn on the next block adds just the right bit of competitive stimulation to start my day off right. If you travel down Capitol every morning and turn left on any of the southbound streets, you get to do this at least twice a week.I'm still waiting for an inspired train driver to try to make it close.Why not just slow down a bit and yield to the train? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 That's lame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Houston's "tunnel system" is various basements, connected by slender tunnels built under the streets. It's also only open during Business Hours, 5 days a week. Real subways run through purpose-built tunnels. To go from the tunnel to the train, walk upstairs. (Or take an escalator.) Then go outside. In Munich, they have the tunnels that are used by their subway, but at the main junctions of multiple lines they have an underground mall area above the subway system. Food courts, small shops, etc. all in this area. It's really nice. it's very similar to our downtown tunnel system, only the walkways are wider. It would be great, if Houston ever got a subway system, that the downtown tunnels be incorporated into the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLWM8609 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Why not just slow down a bit and yield to the train? You must not be from around these parts. What is this yield that you speak of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfastx Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Houston's "tunnel system" is various basements, connected by slender tunnels built under the streets. It's also only open during Business Hours, 5 days a week. Real subways run through purpose-built tunnels. To go from the tunnel to the train, walk upstairs. (Or take an escalator.) Then go outside. I understand what Houston's tunnel system is. Each station would have an exit directly to the street as well as to any nearby tunnels. The actual train tunnels would be below the pedestrian tunnels. The mezzanine levels of the subway stations above the platforms would be at the same level as the tunnels. Many Houstonians don't like to sweat, so if they can avoid going outside, they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 You must not be from around these parts. What is this yield that you speak of?Hahaha nice response... well there has to be some solution to this... maybe designated left and right turns is necessary to either side of the track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I'm curious how the rail is performing during large events like the games at MMP, BBVA, and the UH stadium? Anyone taken the train instead of driving to yesterday's game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I did, and thank god METRO had the intelligence to double stack the Purple line trams. Plent if people are taking the purple line to UH, and for rush hour times during the weekday it should be double stacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesL Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I doubt there'd be "no question" that if it was tunneled or elevated for a short stretch there'd be fewer riders, in most cases grade separation increases ridership. Especially if it were integrated with the downtown tunnel system. There is no question that a line of 1/2 or 1/4 the length would have lower ridership. Ridership is driven by jobs, residences, and other destinations within walking distance of the stations and by connections to bus routes. A line that didn't reach the TMC or Reliant would have dramatically fewer of these. Dryden/TMC is the highest ridership station in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfastx Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 There is no question that a line of 1/2 or 1/4 the length would have lower ridership. Ridership is driven by jobs, residences, and other destinations within walking distance of the stations and by connections to bus routes. A line that didn't reach the TMC or Reliant would have dramatically fewer of these. Dryden/TMC is the highest ridership station in the system. I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that if the red line was exactly the same except that it was tunneled in downtown and/or elevated in the TMC ridership would be lower, not if the line only went from one end of downtown to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeves2 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I'm curious how the rail is performing during large events like the games at MMP, BBVA, and the UH stadium? Anyone taken the train instead of driving to yesterday's game? This was around 10:30 PM from the UH game on Saturday. The rail made it very easy and we avoided all the traffic. Double stacked cars too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illusionescape Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Took the green/purple line this morning to the Thanksgiving Day parade. Got on at EaDo Station and got off at Theatre District Station. Going there wasn't too bad as we left after the parade started. However, coming back was a nightmare. Everyone was trying to walk back to their cars and walking in the streets (and on the rails). Police were yelling at pedestrians to get off the rails. The trains couldn't proceed. It was so slow. I think I could've walked faster than the train was travelling between Theatre District Station and Convention District Station. Once we passed Convention District Station the train sped up to normal speed. I really think METRO blew it with this section within Downtown. This section should be elevated. Yeah I know its a cost issue but I'm just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astros148 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Exactly what i said in the other thread. For the money they spent here to just accomplish a shared road is such a effin disaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astros148 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The point of taking public mass is that you dont have to worry about traffic plain and simple. When you take the train to an astros game and it takes 15 min to take you 2 stations is just how epic of a failure it is. Needs it's own dedicated lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montrose1100 Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Took the green/purple line this morning to the Thanksgiving Day parade. Got on at EaDo Station and got off at Theatre District Station. Going there wasn't too bad as we left after the parade started. However, coming back was a nightmare. Everyone was trying to walk back to their cars and walking in the streets (and on the rails). Police were yelling at pedestrians to get off the rails. The trains couldn't proceed. It was so slow. I think I could've walked faster than the train was travelling between Theatre District Station and Convention District Station. Once we passed Convention District Station the train sped up to normal speed. I really think METRO blew it with this section within Downtown. This section should be elevated. Yeah I know its a cost issue but I'm just saying.Elevated? Downtown? Sounds like a nightmare compared to at-grade. Do you know how miserable the street life would be? Imagine the connectivity underground with the street and tunnels. Subway. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astros148 Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 okay but you can at least have a dedicated lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illusionescape Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Elevated? Downtown? Sounds like a nightmare compared to at-grade. Do you know how miserable the street life would be? Imagine the connectivity underground with the street and tunnels. Subway. Period.Visit Chicago then tell me why an elevated rail line would be a nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montrose1100 Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Visit Chicago then tell me why an elevated rail line would be a nightmare.I have and it robs the streetscape of light, and it's too cluttered. Elevated would be fine along Westheimer (west of the Galleria), but not Downtown. It's depressing, and gritty. Wouldn't make sense to be counter productive to the beautification and on going strive to make retail happen on our streets. Ontop of that, it will look like an elevated highway running through to middle of everything. You think Metro would seriously have some great designs to make it more appealing? Nope. Just concrete pillars. Beautiful.How about you visit under the Pierce elevated and let me know how it adds to the streets around it.Edit: Elevated would work if the Houston Center had panned out to its original renderings. Same effect on the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The best thing Boston every did, way before the Big Dig, was to bury the orange line of the T and build a park over it (Southwest Corridor Park). The old Orange Line used to be elevated down Washington St. and it didn't take long for the area to become a ghetto. Nobody wants to live adjacent to a loud, noisy, light-blocking train. Montrose is right on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illusionescape Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 I have and it robs the streetscape of light, and it's too cluttered. Elevated would be fine along Westheimer (west of the Galleria), but not Downtown. It's depressing, and gritty. Wouldn't make sense to be counter productive to the beautification and on going strive to make retail happen on our streets. Ontop of that, it will look like an elevated highway running through to middle of everything. You think Metro would seriously have some great designs to make it more appealing? Nope. Just concrete pillars. Beautiful.How about you visit under the Pierce elevated and let me know how it adds to the streets around it.Edit: Elevated would work if the Houston Center had panned out to its original renderings. Same effect on the street.Ok, I agree with you on the blocking of sunlight. But I don't agree that it would kill street life or development at grade. Your Pearce Elevated arguement doesn't apply. It's not meant to serve pedestrians, it's for vehicular traffic. If it was, people would be at grade walking underneath it to access stations. I can't speak for the entire Chicago system, but many of the areas I was in had lively activity at grade with coffee shops, restaurants, etc. and this wasn't necessarily right underneath a station but in between them. One reason why Houston is better suited for elevated rail is because of the flooding issue. A subway would be deemed useless during floods. Even the existing at-grade system can only operate in a few inches of water before they shut it down and runs busses instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 A subway would be deemed useless during floods. Uh, no. Lots of low lying places have underground rail. You just have to build it correctly. Of course, that might be a struggle for METRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Uh, no. Lots of low lying places have underground rail. You just have to build it correctly. Of course, that might be a struggle for METRO.The only difference is cost subway is roughly triple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieMay Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Uh, no. Lots of low lying places have underground rail. You just have to build it correctly. Of course, that might be a struggle for METRO. Who will give METRO the money? We're not talking about digging a subway tunnel in virgin soil--a real tunnel, not linked basements. We're talking about digging deeply--around or under the foundations of some very tall buildings. I ride light rail. I'd prefer to block all other traffic from lanes used by the rail & synchronize all traffic lights to give the train priority. Really--this could be accomplished cheaply. However, lots of motorists would delicate flower. (This last phrase substituted by the program rather than allow a word for "complain" that refers to a female canine.) Yes, the drivers would not be happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Who will give METRO the money? We're not talking about digging a subway tunnel in virgin soil--a real tunnel, not linked basements. We're talking about digging deeply--around or under the foundations of some very tall buildings. I ride light rail. I'd prefer to block all other traffic from lanes used by the rail & synchronize all traffic lights to give the train priority. Really--this could be accomplished cheaply. However, lots of motorists would delicate flower. (This last phrase substituted by the program rather than allow a word for "complain" that refers to a female canine.) Yes, the drivers would not be happy!Actually that's the best route... and while some drivers would complain, I really don't think a train coming every few minutes and disrupting traffic sporadically would affect anyone. You sync the lights to give the train priority, and you would have a very efficient line running even at peak hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietstorm Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Really cool 49 second sped up video courtesy of Jackson Myers at Swamplot. This is not the new line, but hopefully, the new line will begin to get more riders soon. https://youtu.be/T8zWQh_wC_A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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