M•K•T, The Standard In The Heights

[Purdueenginerd]

The architect isnt making the structural engineer's life easy on this one. Tilt Wall construction like that and it looks like theyre cutting huge holes in it and significantly altering building profiles. I get the feeling this might be scaled back significantly once it gets to the DD issue of the drawings. Neat complex though

[Visitor]

What an upgrade! Why can't I shake the feeling this is not actually going happen?

[s3mh]

I would not want to own a house on Waverly between 11th and this development.  Waverly is going to end up being the street to access this development from the north.  They really should build 6th street to go all the way through, but pylons for a bridge over the retention pond would displace too much water and require them to dig deeper into the very contaminated soil.  But I bet a bridge over the retention pond would be a great home for bats.

 

Otherwise, it is a great idea, especially the way it integrates with the hike and bike path.  People shopping/dining at this development can walk about a half mi and be over at Heights Mercantile.  

 

The only thing I wonder about is where we are on the supply and demand curve for retail space in the Heights.  Radam is a smart guy and must have a lot of leasing leads to take on 200k sq ft.  But I also feel like we are getting to the limit on the number of juice bars, pilates/yoga studios, fancy barber shops, and coffee shops you can fit into the Heights. 

[swtsig]

2 hours ago, s3mh said:

I would not want to own a house on Waverly between 11th and this development.  Waverly is going to end up being the street to access this development from the north.  They really should build 6th street to go all the way through, but pylons for a bridge over the retention pond would displace too much water and require them to dig deeper into the very contaminated soil.  But I bet a bridge over the retention pond would be a great home for bats.

 

Otherwise, it is a great idea, especially the way it integrates with the hike and bike path.  People shopping/dining at this development can walk about a half mi and be over at Heights Mercantile.  

 

The only thing I wonder about is where we are on the supply and demand curve for retail space in the Heights.  Radam is a smart guy and must have a lot of leasing leads to take on 200k sq ft.  But I also feel like we are getting to the limit on the number of juice bars, pilates/yoga studios, fancy barber shops, and coffee shops you can fit into the Heights. 

 

you bring up some very salient points and i too wonder when we'll become oversaturated on the retail side of things but he's not moving forward on any of this without some very strong commitments. the second phase will add more office and mf than retail so it will certainly create its own sense of place that can help feed the retail and hospitality in place. it will also create amazing greenspace. ultimately he's going to knock this outta of the park.

[j_cuevas713]

I live on Heights Blvd. I'll do my best to give updates. I run through this area just about every day.

Edited November 16, 2018 by j_cuevas713

[Houston19514]

LOVE all the creative re-uses of warehouse buildings being done around town.

[Luminare]

17 hours ago, Purdueenginerd said:

The architect isnt making the structural engineer's life easy on this one. Tilt Wall construction like that and it looks like theyre cutting huge holes in it and significantly altering building profiles. I get the feeling this might be scaled back significantly once it gets to the DD issue of the drawings. Neat complex though

 

If there is a significant steel structure like they are showing, then this probably isn't a tilt wall complex don't you think? (as an architect asking an engineer). From the renderings its possible that they will strip the building to the bear structure (which in this market will save millions on steel costs) and just redo the envelope and roof. Thats just from a first pass at looking at this.

 

EDIT: Upon doing a second pass and then looking at the original building, this looks like a steel structure with precast aggregate concrete panels for the exterior. I'm just not convinced this is tilt wall. Could be wrong though.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Luminare

[Purdueenginerd]

On 11/16/2018 at 1:38 PM, Luminare said:

 

If there is a significant steel structure like they are showing, then this probably isn't a tilt wall complex don't you think? (as an architect asking an engineer). From the renderings its possible that they will strip the building to the bear structure (which in this market will save millions on steel costs) and just redo the envelope and roof. Thats just from a first pass at looking at this.

 

EDIT: Upon doing a second pass and then looking at the original building, this looks like a steel structure with precast aggregate concrete panels for the exterior. I'm just not convinced this is tilt wall. Could be wrong though.

 

I could be wrong as well as I have not seen the interior framing. But if I had to guess, I would opine that its steel frame for the center columns and beams to support the roof bar joists however the exterior perimeter appears to me to me tilt wall with a decorative finish. That tilt wall is likely supporting the other side of the bar joists. Those exposed aggregate tilt wall buildings were really popular in the 70's and 80's. Link below with some construction details on how theyre built.

 

https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/tilt-up-exposed-aggregate_o

 

I pulled an image from 1978 from when the complex was under construction. Pretty hard to tell but it looks like the walls are up and theres no roof on the building(the Center building) yet which is consistent with tilt-wall construction.

 

 

 

 

[SamHouston]

Related, I love/hate how Google Maps takes the MKT Trail and interprets it as "Market Trail". Same how sometimes "West Road" becomes "W Rd". Robots aren't beating that CAPTCHA soon.

[SamHouston]

Related, I love/hate how Google Maps takes the MKT Trail and interprets it as "Market Trail". Same how sometimes "West Road" becomes "W Rd". Robots aren't beating that CAPTCHA soon.

[j_cuevas713]

Is this the same area?

https://www.chron.com/business/real-estate/article/Heights-developers-embark-on-12-acre-retail-and-13398311.php#photo-12783317 

[Visitor]

Yes, looks like it. Although the photos in the article all from all over developments.

[Angostura]

Is that a Shake Shack logo in the video?

 

[Angostura]

On 11/16/2018 at 1:49 PM, s3mh said:

I would not want to own a house on Waverly between 11th and this development.  Waverly is going to end up being the street to access this development from the north.  They really should build 6th street to go all the way through, but pylons for a bridge over the retention pond would displace too much water and require them to dig deeper into the very contaminated soil.  But I bet a bridge over the retention pond would be a great home for bats.

 

 

 

 

Access to this site is tricky for anyone actually coming from the Heights (by car). 

 

If Shepherd/Durham weren't the functional equivalent of an 8-lane highway running through the neighborhood, but were instead a pair of 3-lane two-way streets, it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

 

[mkultra25]

Love the "BUY" and "NOSH" signs-as-imperatives in the Bldg 4 rendering. If this is an emerging trend for design placeholders, I look forward to "CONSUME" and "OBEY" in future renderings. 

[j_cuevas713]

Wow the design is very modern and artistic. Very excited the direction Houston is going. 

[plumber2]

Before the Shepherd 10 Business Park was built, the site was used for low income housing. There were several two story structures, of the post WWII barracks style construction. I'm sure the lower Heights residents were glad to see them go at the time. Now we a ready for the next use of this land. MKT looks like a good fit for this site, however it appears hard to get in and out of.

[Angostura]

On 12/21/2018 at 6:14 PM, plumber2 said:

however it appears hard to get in and out of.

 

This is true, but easily solved: re-stripe both Shepherd and Durham from 4-lane, one-way to 3-lane, two-way, so instead of having an 8-lane highway running through the neighborhood, we have two functional commercial streets.

[Ross]

7 hours ago, Angostura said:

 

This is true, but easily solved: re-stripe both Shepherd and Durham from 4-lane, one-way to 3-lane, two-way, so instead of having an 8-lane highway running through the neighborhood, we have two functional commercial streets.

Oh, hell no. That's honestly one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in a long time. Shepherd and Durham work fine as they are. You are suggesting cutting the travel lanes in half, which would result in massive traffic jams and backups trying to get out of the businesses on those streets. And, that's ignoring the costs to redo the traffic signals on both streets, and making the merge North of 610 work.

[Angostura]

47 minutes ago, Ross said:

Oh, hell no. That's honestly one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in a long time. Shepherd and Durham work fine as they are. You are suggesting cutting the travel lanes in half, which would result in massive traffic jams and backups trying to get out of the businesses on those streets. And, that's ignoring the costs to redo the traffic signals on both streets, and making the merge North of 610 work.

 

Shep and Durham work OK if you're in a car. They kind of suck if you're not.

 

3-lane 2-way streets have almost the same carrying capacity as 4-lane 2-way streets, since they handle left turns more efficiently. (They're also a lot safer.)  Shepherd and Durham between 11th and 20th both carry less traffic than (3-lane) Studewood between 11th and White Oak. A 3-lane configuration would reduce travel speeds to a safer level, discourage cut-through traffic, and allow space for wider sidewalks or bike lanes. Reducing average travel speeds from 40 mph to 25 mph along this corridor would add all of 2 minutes to a trip from I-10 to 610.

[Texasota]

The city is already planning to put in bike lanes on Shepherd and Durham. I don't know if they're planning on taking a car lane from each street or what, but even just taking each street down the 3 lanes would help.

 

The other thing that would really help? Lights at 10th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, and 30th streets. The biggest problem with this couplet is how difficult it is to cross.

[Visitor]

2 hours ago, Texasota said:

The city is already planning to put in bike lanes on Shepherd and Durham. I don't know if they're planning on taking a car lane from each street or what, but even just taking each street down the 3 lanes would help.

 

The other thing that would really help? Lights at 10th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, and 30th streets. The biggest problem with this couplet is how difficult it is to cross.

If they add that many lights I can guarantee there will be at least one less car that ever goes down either street

[Angostura]

15 hours ago, Texasota said:

The city is already planning to put in bike lanes on Shepherd and Durham. I don't know if they're planning on taking a car lane from each street or what, but even just taking each street down the 3 lanes would help.

 

The other thing that would really help? Lights at 10th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, and 30th streets. The biggest problem with this couplet is how difficult it is to cross.

 

It's hard to cross because there are four lanes of one-way traffic, and the road design encourages people to drive way faster than the 35 mph speed limit. You're crossing what is effectively an 8-lane divided highway.

 

[Texasota]

Sort of. Except there's an enormous median with grocery stores and stuff in the middle.

 

Don't get me wrong; I would love to see the number of car travel lanes cut down. I just think (regarding the road design) that a huge part of the problem is the distance between stop lights. People speed because the street is so wide AND because there's no reason to stop. 

[Ross]

20 hours ago, Angostura said:

 

Shep and Durham work OK if you're in a car. They kind of suck if you're not.

 

3-lane 2-way streets have almost the same carrying capacity as 4-lane 2-way streets, since they handle left turns more efficiently. (They're also a lot safer.)  Shepherd and Durham between 11th and 20th both carry less traffic than (3-lane) Studewood between 11th and White Oak. A 3-lane configuration would reduce travel speeds to a safer level, discourage cut-through traffic, and allow space for wider sidewalks or bike lanes. Reducing average travel speeds from 40 mph to 25 mph along this corridor would add all of 2 minutes to a trip from I-10 to 610.

 

According to the City of Houston Traffic Counts site, Shepherd between 11th and 20th carried 10,000 more cars per day than Studewood between 11th and White Oak. If you are biking, there are better streets than Shepherd and Durham a couple of blocks to the East. You would be insane to bike on Shepherd and Durham until the City gets around to redoing the pavement.

 

Right turns will back up the one lane and a turn lane you propose, since people can't seem to make a right turn without stopping in the middle of the turn.

 

1 hour ago, Texasota said:

Sort of. Except there's an enormous median with grocery stores and stuff in the middle.

 

Don't get me wrong; I would love to see the number of car travel lanes cut down. I just think (regarding the road design) that a huge part of the problem is the distance between stop lights. People speed because the street is so wide AND because there's no reason to stop. 

A light at 10th would be stupid. A better choice there would be an island that forces people to turn right from 10th onto Shepherd, not allowing them to cross over to Merchants Park and the stores. Otherwise, there are plenty of lights between 11th and 610. 

 

I spend more time driving on Shepherd and Durham than any other streets, and would hate to see any reductions in traffic flow.

[Angostura]

20 minutes ago, Ross said:

 

According to the City of Houston Traffic Counts site, Shepherd between 11th and 20th carried 10,000 more cars per day than Studewood between 11th and White Oak.

 

Studewood @ 8th: 19,632. Shepherd @ 14th: 18,654. Studewood DOES see fewer cars north of 11th, but the point is that a 3-lane road configuration can carry similar levels of traffic to what Shepherd currently carries, and do so with much higher levels of pedestrian safety.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Ross said:

 

If you are biking, there are better streets than Shepherd and Durham a couple of blocks to the East.

 

Unless your destination is on Shepherd. Within a few years, Shepherd will have transformed into a series of used car lots into a pretty dense commercial (and residential) district. It has a better chance of thriving if people can navigate this area safely.

 

BTW, CoH will never make this change, because we value moving cars efficiently more than we value not killing pedestrians. I'm just trying to move the Overton window a little. (Though, one way to avoid killing pedestrians is to do everything possible to ensure we never have any.) 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Ross said:

 

You would be insane to bike on Shepherd and Durham until the City gets around to redoing the pavement.

 

On this, we agree.

[Texasota]

Eh, I've actually biked more than a few times on Shepherd and (with a group) it can actually be pretty nice. Traffic gets pretty light north of I-10 at various times of day and you can easily take a whole, excessively wide lane quite comfortably.

[Ross]

36 minutes ago, Angostura said:

 

Studewood @ 8th: 19,632. Shepherd @ 14th: 18,654. Studewood DOES see fewer cars north of 11th, but the point is that a 3-lane road configuration can carry similar levels of traffic to what Shepherd currently carries, and do so with much higher levels of pedestrian safety.

 

Extracted today from the CoH site, averages for the year:

 

STREET NAME

SEGMENT

ADT

YEAR

SHEPHERD N	DURHAM TO W 34TH ST	47227	2018
SHEPHERD N	KATY FWY TO W 11TH ST	34958	2018
SHEPHERD N	KATY FWY TO W 11TH ST	33958	2018
SHEPHERD N	LITTLE YORK TO NORTH FWY	20167	2018
SHEPHERD N	PARKER TO LITTLE YORK	35175	2018
SHEPHERD N	PINEMONT TO TIDWELL	31605	2018
SHEPHERD N	TIDWELL TO W MONTGOMERY	30899	2018
SHEPHERD N	W 11TH ST TO W 20TH ST	25355	2018
SHEPHERD N	W 34TH ST TO W 43RD ST	46498	2018
SHEPHERD N	W 34TH ST TO W 43RD ST	46498	2018
SHEPHERD N	W 43RD ST TO PINEMONT	41366	2018
SHEPHERD N	W MONTGOMERY TO PARKER	34891	2018
STUDEWOOD	KATY FWY TO WHITE OAK	16654	2018
STUDEWOOD	W 11TH ST TO N MAIN	9091	2018
STUDEWOOD	WHITE OAK TO W 11TH ST	15158	2018

[Angostura]

Thanks for the pointer to CoH data. I was using the TXDoT data, which is different. http://ttihouston.tamu.edu/hgac/trafficcountmap/

 

 

[s3mh]

http://www.housingforhouston.com/media/54608/august 2018 board packet.pdf

 

The southern half of this property that is currently being prepped for construction is going to be the Standard in the Heights.  51% of the units will be reserved for low and moderate income residents.  This is in the Love Elementary school zone.  Love is chronically under enrolled.  So, no Briargrove freak out will happen with this project.