The Cosmopolitan of Houston: Block 166 - Downtown

[houstontexasjack]

I agree with all of you about downtown parking ease, however the issue with losing those big surface lots around Minute Maid is not real lack of availability, it is perception. If suburban upper middle class families do not see that there are big open lots around Minute Maid, they are going to be spooked into not going to games. They aren't even going to try. And even if something incredible happened and they did all decide to try, the Astros management still thinks they are not going to try, which is why the Astros are not simply going to let those lots disappear and trust the free market to provide parking.

 

The team wants the fan base to be assured that they can, if they want to, park easily near the ballpark and only have one or two streets to cross. That's why I think the only way to get rid of those lots, particularly the giant one across 59, is to build an underground structure that the team can advertise to their season ticket holders. This will also help everyone in the long run because if the neighborhood really does fill up and become exciting, in a city without a meaningful rail system, there WILL be a serious need for parking.

 

I could also see significant parking garages, similar the one going up just north of the George R. Brown, with structures atop them going up on this site. Most games start after the end of the workday, so there would be plenty of parking for office and for games--although one would want multiple spots for ingress and egress for the garages.

[swtsig]

how did this conversation devolve into a discussion of demographic trends in stadium parking?

[houstontexasjack]

We don't have anything new on this project and it keeps getting bumped.  Although, now that it has developed into more of a conversation, it might be more appropriate for another thread.

[Nate99]

If the Astros' product is so bad as to have parking perception (as opposed to reality) issues scare away consumers, they have problems with their product bigger than parking perception issues.

 

That is to say, if/when the Astros are worth watching again, this problem solves itself. In the interim you're talking about a problem that is very marginal in terms of attendance impact, certainly not worth developing a giant garage to soothe easily spooked cartoon suburbanites.  Signing a couple of legit pitchers would be cheaper, even at MLB prices.  

 

 

[H-Town Man]

If the Astros' product is so bad as to have parking perception (as opposed to reality) issues scare away consumers, they have problems with their product bigger than parking perception issues.

 

That is to say, if/when the Astros are worth watching again, this problem solves itself. In the interim you're talking about a problem that is very marginal in terms of attendance impact, certainly not worth developing a giant garage to soothe easily spooked cartoon suburbanites.  Signing a couple of legit pitchers would be cheaper, even at MLB prices.  

 

It really doesn't matter whether we think it's necessary or not. My contention is that the team management is not going to let parking around the stadium go away. No mid-market baseball team will ever be great for an extended period, and the franchise will always have to cater to the suburban family to sell tickets for 81 home games, even when the team is great.

 

And if you read the last part of my post, if this neighborhood fills up with buildings, there will be a massive need for parking. The underground garages at the Theater District and Discovery Green were smart, forward thinking. The same will be true of this area as it fills in.

[Nate99]

Probably time to peel this off in to another thread, but it is interesting to me, so I'l keep on the tangent.

 

 

It really doesn't matter whether we think it's necessary or not. My contention is that the team management is not going to let parking around the stadium go away. No mid-market baseball team will ever be great for an extended period, and the franchise will always have to cater to the suburban family to sell tickets for 81 home games, even when the team is great.

 

And if you read the last part of my post, if this neighborhood fills up with buildings, there will be a massive need for parking. The underground garages at the Theater District and Discovery Green were smart, forward thinking. The same will be true of this area as it fills in.

 

I did read somewhere that DT would be parking constrained (from a daytime worker perspective anyway) if everything on the table goes, it would be wise to lead that trend when it is cheaper to do so.  Putting something else like DG (but of lesser scope) east of 59 sounds pretty cool.

 

I just think that people, even suburbanites, will adapt if given a reason to do so.

 

The cool thing about sports is that they keep stats for everything. Given little change in the parking dynamics over the timeframe, Astros attendance dropped from 38K average in 2004 (at the peak interest level) to less than 20K average in in 2012 (the nadir). I'd call that the performance differential. The current leader in the World Series, San Francisco, has a TV market roughly equivalent to that of Houston and has to share the market with the A's and they have been in he WS 3 out of 5 years. It may be a lurid fantasy to presume Astros mangement could put on a run like that, but fundamentally, it is not impossible.  Maybe urban San Franciscans go to Giants games more than folks from Walnut Creek, but it is certainly not a piece of cake getting around the SF bay area, and they averaged 41.5k this year.

 

Put a contender in MMP and I'd bet that the general growth in the area (to say nothing of the people living really close, in downtown) would more than make up for those scared away by the lack of surface lots in the immediate area. If it could ever be built up like the area around Petco in San Diego, that would be flippin' fantastic. If all of the proposed stuff goes, it will be a long way down that path.

 

 

[SMF]

I blame poor management.

[H-Town Man]

Probably time to peel this off in to another thread, but it is interesting to me, so I'l keep on the tangent.

 

 

 

I did read somewhere that DT would be parking constrained (from a daytime worker perspective anyway) if everything on the table goes, it would be wise to lead that trend when it is cheaper to do so.  Putting something else like DG (but of lesser scope) east of 59 sounds pretty cool.

 

I just think that people, even suburbanites, will adapt if given a reason to do so.

 

The cool thing about sports is that they keep stats for everything. Given little change in the parking dynamics over the timeframe, Astros attendance dropped from 38K average in 2004 (at the peak interest level) to less than 20K average in in 2012 (the nadir). I'd call that the performance differential. The current leader in the World Series, San Francisco, has a TV market roughly equivalent to that of Houston and has to share the market with the A's and they have been in he WS 3 out of 5 years. It may be a lurid fantasy to presume Astros mangement could put on a run like that, but fundamentally, it is not impossible.  Maybe urban San Franciscans go to Giants games more than folks from Walnut Creek, but it is certainly not a piece of cake getting around the SF bay area, and they averaged 41.5k this year.

 

Put a contender in MMP and I'd bet that the general growth in the area (to say nothing of the people living really close, in downtown) would more than make up for those scared away by the lack of surface lots in the immediate area. If it could ever be built up like the area around Petco in San Diego, that would be flippin' fantastic. If all of the proposed stuff goes, it will be a long way down that path.

 

AT&T Park in San Francisco has massive surface lot parking. SF also has a substantially larger media market (#6 vs. #10), and a different fan base in that it is less of a family, suburban oriented following. I don't see the Astros risking the loss of adjacent parking facilities. The planners for Discovery Green knew better than to put a park there without providing parking. The Theater District did the same and it has helped guarantee the continued viability of those institutions, even though theoretically there are plenty of office building garages around there that evening theater-goers could park in.

 

What I'm arguing is not that parking for Minute Maid is difficult now, or that Astros' success wouldn't benefit attendance immensely, or that downtown residential development won't to some extent alleviate loss of interest from scared suburbanites. What I'm saying is, if you want to see all those lots surrounding Minute Maid get developed, a large parking structure at least partly controlled by the Astros will be necessary, and that structure would be better underground than above it.

 

Edited October 27, 2014 by H-Town Man

[arche_757]

AT&T Park in San Francisco has massive surface lot parking. SF also has a substantially larger media market (#6 vs. #10), and a different fan base in that it is less of a family, suburban oriented following. I don't see the Astros risking the loss of adjacent parking facilities. The planners for Discovery Green knew better than to put a park there without providing parking. The Theater District did the same and it has helped guarantee the continued viability of those institutions, even though theoretically there are plenty of office building garages around there that evening theater-goers could park in.

 

What I'm arguing is not that parking for Minute Maid is difficult now, or that Astros' success wouldn't benefit attendance immensely, or that downtown residential development won't to some extent alleviate loss of interest from scared suburbanites. What I'm saying is, if you want to see all those lots surrounding Minute Maid get developed, a large parking structure at least partly controlled by the Astros will be necessary, and that structure would be better underground than above it.

 

MMP controls the parking lots directly south of the park on both sides of 59/69.  I'd like to assume that we could eventually facilitate a 2-3 level (at least) parking structure on one or both of those?  I think this sort of stuff is all in due time, as once this part of Downtown fills in enough the demand will be there for parking structures.

 

Also, San Francisco + Oakland + San Jose = a larger Metro population than Houston:

7.44 million MSA, 8.47 million CSA (for San Francisco), compared to: 6.17 million MSA and 6.37 million CSA (for Houston).

 

Hard to compare a Metro area with 2 million more people than we have.  Obviously it would have a larger TV audience.

 

[mollusk]

AT&T Park in San Francisco has massive surface lot parking. 

 

Yeah, right - a whole 4,000 spaces.  And regardless of whether it's Official Giants Parking or other options, it costs the freakin' earth.

 

In comparison, NRG park has 26,000+ on site.  I don't think I've seen anything much higher than $20 or so at MMP, even back when the Lastros weren't awful. 

 

But Bubba and Sally Farhome are different critters here than in the Bay Area.  I've had Suburbans full of suburbanites gape at me as if I'd turned green and sprouted antennae as I've pulled into an open street spot and gotten out of my car, while they waited in line to pay to park in an adjacent lot.  In contrast, AT&T is super easy to get to via BART and/or MUNI - and trust me, the MUNI Metro and BART were packed for the games I've gone to there.  Oh, and BART does go to Walnut Creek, and makes it into the city in about 35 minutes.  Perhaps you could match that time driving to a weekend game, but likely not.  First you get the joy that is the Caldecott Tunnel, then the ever exciting MacArthur Maze, and then this:

[H-Town Man]

Yeah, right - a whole 4,000 spaces.  And regardless of whether it's Official Giants Parking or other options, it costs the freakin' earth.

 

In comparison, NRG park has 26,000+ on site.  I don't think I've seen anything much higher than $20 or so at MMP, even back when the Lastros weren't awful. 

 

But Bubba and Sally Farhome are different critters here than in the Bay Area.  I've had Suburbans full of suburbanites gape at me as if I'd turned green and sprouted antennae as I've pulled into an open street spot and gotten out of my car, while they waited in line to pay to park in an adjacent lot.  In contrast, AT&T is super easy to get to via BART and/or MUNI - and trust me, the MUNI Metro and BART were packed for the games I've gone to there.  Oh, and BART does go to Walnut Creek, and makes it into the city in about 35 minutes.  Perhaps you could match that time driving to a weekend game, but likely not.  First you get the joy that is the Caldecott Tunnel, then the ever exciting MacArthur Maze, and then this:

 

The aerial view of Lot A at AT&T looks pretty comparable to those giant lots going east from MMP and 59. 4,000 for preferred season ticket holders and those willing to pay makes a difference, otherwise the Giants wouldn't have invested so much in keeping it there. Underscoring my point that the Astros are not going to let that go unless an alternate parking structure exists.

 

Not sure what parking costs or the size of NRG's parking have to do with it.

Edited October 28, 2014 by H-Town Man

[cloud713]

Underscoring my point that the Astros are not going to let that go unless an alternate parking structure exists.

 

Not sure what parking costs or the size of NRG's parking have to do with it.

well yeah.. thats a given. they could build a garage on the thin strip between 59 and MMP with sky bridges linking into the upper decks (with ticket booths of course) for direct access to parking. and then a garage on the southeast quadrant/block of the big super block parking lot north of BBVA Compass Stadium. then they would have 5 blocks of vacant land to develop. and if they do it right it could spur development on the rundown land surrounding that to the north and the east and turn that part of the east end around.

 

[Timoric]

-

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Timoric

[Nate99]

Yeah, right - a whole 4,000 spaces.  And regardless of whether it's Official Giants Parking or other options, it costs the freakin' earth.

 

In comparison, NRG park has 26,000+ on site.  I don't think I've seen anything much higher than $20 or so at MMP, even back when the Lastros weren't awful. 

 

But Bubba and Sally Farhome are different critters here than in the Bay Area.  I've had Suburbans full of suburbanites gape at me as if I'd turned green and sprouted antennae as I've pulled into an open street spot and gotten out of my car, while they waited in line to pay to park in an adjacent lot.  In contrast, AT&T is super easy to get to via BART and/or MUNI - and trust me, the MUNI Metro and BART were packed for the games I've gone to there.  Oh, and BART does go to Walnut Creek, and makes it into the city in about 35 minutes.  Perhaps you could match that time driving to a weekend game, but likely not.  First you get the joy that is the Caldecott Tunnel, then the ever exciting MacArthur Maze, and then this:

 

 

I was over there somewhere thought it was Walnut Creek, but evidently not, trying to get back to SFO and ended up having to get a cab either 30 minutes to the nearest BART station to then route back through the city or an stay in the cab an hour to SFO. That was expensive.  Some places in the bay area don't work well with their mass transit options, by design I would imagine.

[H-Town Man]

well yeah.. thats a given. they could build a garage on the thin strip between 59 and MMP with sky bridges linking into the upper decks (with ticket booths of course) for direct access to parking. and then a garage on the southeast quadrant/block of the big super block parking lot north of BBVA Compass Stadium. then they would have 5 blocks of vacant land to develop. and if they do it right it could spur development on the rundown land surrounding that to the north and the east and turn that part of the east end around.

 

 

That's probably the less expensive route. But an expansive underground structure like I'm suggesting could both satisfy the Astros' needs and provide parking to fuel the development in the area, without putting structures up in the air. The vacant blocks north of MMP would be a better location, but might run into problems with streets and utilities. The super parking lot east of 59 would be the easiest, but probably needs to wait until there's more development to justify it.

[urbanize713]

Correct me if I am wrong but is there not a massive 7 story parking garage going up a block over from MMP that is supposed to service the area for big events?

[H-Town Man]

Correct me if I am wrong but is there not a massive 7 story parking garage going up a block over from MMP that is supposed to service the area for big events?

 

Is this a block south? Do you know how many spaces it will hold?

 

[mollusk]

I was over there somewhere thought it was Walnut Creek, but evidently not, trying to get back to SFO and ended up having to get a cab either 30 minutes to the nearest BART station to then route back through the city or an stay in the cab an hour to SFO. That was expensive.  Some places in the bay area don't work well with their mass transit options, by design I would imagine.

 

True enough for visitors - however, the suburban BART stations generally have parking garages for the local population, and pick up/drop off lanes.

[cloud713]

Need to see a picture to understand what area you are talking about

ignore the developments and the deck park over 59. lol, it was part of a fantasy "parks district" plan i sketched up a while back.

[cloud713]

Correct me if I am wrong but is there not a massive 7 story parking garage going up a block over from MMP that is supposed to service the area for big events?

yes, mainly for the GRBs needs.. but were talking about parking garages to replace the massive 6 blocks of surface parking between MMP and BBVA, so that area can be redeveloped into something better than asphalt.

[LarryDierker]

The GRB garage is a block away. There is also a 300 car garage proposed for the Catholic Church on a lot that borders the third base line, which is where most of the ticket booths are.

 

 

[H-Town Man]

ignore the developments and the deck park over 59. lol, it was part of a fantasy "parks district" plan i sketched up a while back.

 

 

 

Cool stuff. But you gave your parking garages prime Texas Avenue frontage and set the office buildings back in lala land! I think one thing the Downtown District should strive for is no parking garages on Texas Avenue, besides the existing one at 601 Travis. I would say the same thing about Main Street, but that ship has loooong sailed.

 

Edited October 29, 2014 by H-Town Man

[monarch]

cloud713, my great pal.... you know that i love you.  but what!

look.. i am not going to laugh ok.  i swear i'm not... i am going to do everything possible to keep from laughing...

so please explain those aforementioned architectural gems....

i mean... buddy please please explain....

[cloud713]

Cool stuff. But you gave your parking garages prime Texas Avenue frontage and set the office buildings back in lala land! I think one thing the Downtown District should strive for is no parking garages on Texas Avenue, besides the existing one at 601 Travis. I would say the same thing about Main Street, but that ship has loooong sailed.

The parking garages had GFR that lined Texas (and also faced the park).. And I envisioned large led advertising signs on the garage walls above the gfr to advertise events and what not, but all that is for a different discussion.

cloud713, my great pal.... you know that i love you. but what!

look.. i am not going to laugh ok. i swear i'm not... i am going to do everything possible to keep from laughing...

so please explain those aforementioned architectural gems....

i mean... buddy please please explain....

Lmao.. I'm not going to side track this thread.. If you want to discuss it further I made a little thread that I sidetracked into a few different park and development fantasies in the general subforum. Ha

http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/30089-improving-the-houston-parks-system/?fromsearch=1

P.s. It's ok to laugh.. The astroworld thing in the linked thread totally sucked. .. I wish I could delete that one. Ha, ok now please ignore that drawing.. I only linked it to show what I meant with the garage locations and connections into the upper decks of mmp. I think this thread is already sidetracked enough.. Lol

[Elseed]

This is off topic but I didn't really know where to place it....has anybody heard of a future mixed use development coming to EaDo? Apparently it'll be next to the new Ecclesia Church and HFP....I'm asking because it was mentioned in this article....

 

http://www.chron.com/life/food/article/Houston-food-truck-parks-plots-next-location-in-5869640.php

 

 

" Just a block away from the HFP/Ecclesia complex a mixed use development is coming up, said Ponce, which will only mean more business for everyone once it’s completed. Right now some of the biggest days at the park are when the Houston Dynamo are playing at nearby BBVA Compass Stadium."

 

[H-Town Man]

This is off topic but I didn't really know where to place it....has anybody heard of a future mixed use development coming to EaDo? Apparently it'll be next to the new Ecclesia Church and HFP....I'm asking because it was mentioned in this article....

 

http://www.chron.com/life/food/article/Houston-food-truck-parks-plots-next-location-in-5869640.php

 

 

" Just a block away from the HFP/Ecclesia complex a mixed use development is coming up, said Ponce, which will only mean more business for everyone once it’s completed. Right now some of the biggest days at the park are when the Houston Dynamo are playing at nearby BBVA Compass Stadium."

 

This might just be the Houston definition of mixed use where it means a strip shopping center that has both retail AND a restaurant, maybe even a bank.

 

Or it could be EaDo Place.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2014 by H-Town Man

[Triton]

This might just be the Houston definition of mixed use where it means a strip shopping center that has both retail AND a restaurant, maybe even a bank.

 

Or it could be EaDo Place.

Yup. Was just about to post that it sounds like EaDo Place. They already have the block fenced off.

[H-Town Man]

Yup. Was just about to post that it sounds like EaDo Place. They already have the block fenced off.

 

I'm surprised you haven't updated the thread with a photo.   Must be slipping...

 

Well don't I feel like a flock of castles, you have...

 

Edited November 6, 2014 by H-Town Man

[toxtethogrady]

Are they still calling it EaDo place when the Master Plan says East End?

[H-Town Man]

Are they still calling it EaDo place when the Master Plan says East End?

 

EaEn Place is harder to say. Although it actually does sound less stupid.

[toxtethogrady]

Yes, but now the residents can claim to be the EastEnders...

[Mab]

[monarch]

holy moses!  no way they are going to construct something like this upon that most barron vicinity as per downtown... no way!  wow!

[Avossos]

holy moses!  no way they are going to construct something like this upon that most barron vicinity as per downtown... no way!  wow!

 

I certainly hope they do. that looks very promising. It could be nice mason work... but I wont hold my breath!

[andre154]

I was at the meeting today, (That's actually my a photo from my one of my tweets) and it was noted that there would be retail on the bottom floor as well. That's reflected in the rendering.

Edited November 13, 2014 by andre154

[houstontexasjack]

Wonderful. I like the continued effort to mimic the colors of Minute Maid. We truly could have a "ballpark district" as others on the forum have suggested. 

[toxtethogrady]

It's nice - looks sort of Adams Morgan DC. And it probably rents for $2.80 a sf.

[Luminare]

Wonderful. I like the continued effort to mimic the colors of Minute Maid. We truly could have a "ballpark district" as others on the forum have suggested. 

 

Hmmm. This is actually something interesting to pick up. We are actually starting to develop a sort of materiality and feel in different parts of downtown. While the design is once again historicist in nature at least it is playing off of the foundation or palette of materials established by Minute Maid Park. It would be nice if some of these developers were a little more daring with the brick and mortal they are using (there are plenty of examples where you do crazy cool stuff with brick) instead of reverting to past styles. Of course the other argument is that there isn't a precedent period so why not infuse some of the old styles to build up a diverse palette of architectural styles before everyone moves into contemporary and that might be the case. It's certainly safer for these developers who have never done mid-rises to go to proven styles.

 

On the flip side you have the sleek glass exteriors and more contemporary approaches (still pretty safe for what they could do) near discovery green.

[Urbannizer]

Here's a better look, construction will not begin until 3Q 2015.

 

[Luminare]

Urbannizer, Do you know if this one is also going to try to push for Super Bowl in 2017 or it's going on it's own timeline?

[Triton]

i caught a rendering of this - imagine something similar to Alexan midtown with beige/brown brick. GFR seemed like a distinct possibility on one corner.

Spot on as usual.

[Howard Huge]

I was at the meeting today, (That's actually my a photo from my one of my tweets) and it was noted that there would be retail on the bottom floor as well. That's reflected in the rendering.

[Howard Huge]

assuming this project gets off the ground i do like how many of the developments in the area are taking or have taken cues from MMP - 500 crawford, the westin/vic & anthony's, nau museum, and this one... our own little ballpark district.

Which means that everything is derived from old Union Station.

And THAT, to me is AWESOME. Houston for all the flak it gets IS actually making history live on, in its own unique way

[Howard Huge]

If you think about, pretty much every mid rise in Houston is a throwback to Union Station now that I look at it, sort of

[BigFootsSocks]

It's not like fans from other cities would be renting a place during the Super Bowl when they gave they Yexans ($20 bet). Are other mf projects trying to beat the SB?

[Urbannizer]

Urbannizer, Do you know if this one is also going to try to push for Super Bowl in 2017 or it's going on it's own timeline?

It's own timeline, 3Q 2017 completion (sometime between July and September). So a few moths after the Super Bowl.

[lockmat]

I don't know why, but it gives me an Egyptian feel, weird. The ground level design seems to give it a very lively feel. I dig it.

[Luminare]

I don't know why, but it gives me an Egyptian feel, weird. The ground level design seems to give it a very lively feel. I dig it.

 

I'm surprised with the lack of a single unifying clarity, in terms of style, over the last decade that we haven't seen a sort of return to the Battle of the Styles of which consumed the architectural discourse before the rise of Modernism (which I really hope doesn't happen as that was complete chaos!). I can slightly see where you pick up an "Egyptian feel" I think it has to do with the vertical nature of the building and the brick patterns, but it looks more like a splice between Neo Deco, and early Modern.

[fernz]

Wonderful. I like the continued effort to mimic the colors of Minute Maid. We truly could have a "ballpark district" as others on the forum have suggested.

We used to have it. It was called the Enron Field District. It was an official district with fancy signs over the street name signs.

That didn't work out very well.

[Urbannizer]

4Q of this year now (originally planned to start the 3Q)

 

http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2015-09-11/150910_Development_Map__Renders_11X17.pdf