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The Cosmopolitan Of Houston: Multifamily At 1818 Commerce St.


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Personally, I would like to see something that looks like the Woodlands Gate development. I doubt that one will ever be built, but it looks nothing like any other development in this city - or elsewhere in the country. It would add some spice to Downtown.

Seriously.. I would love to see some woodlands gate esque developments in the inner loop

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The massive parking lot, which I think is for Astro's games, would be perfect for an inner loop woodlands gate. That one across 59 from minute maid.

 

Would compliment the Dynamo stadium nicely, take full advantage of the light rail station right there, and make EaDo (such a cheesy name) a serious player.

 

 

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The massive parking lot, which I think is for Astro's games, would be perfect for an inner loop woodlands gate. That one across 59 from minute maid.

Would compliment the Dynamo stadium nicely, take full advantage of the light rail station right there, and make EaDo (such a cheesy name) a serious player.

Ive always thought that, what a HUGE waste of prime A1 real estate, those MMP parking lots.

Whats the story with those, do the Astros own the blocks, or are they signed to a long term lease with the land owner?

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It would be nice to see a garage placed over the big parking lot, along with additional office and retail/residential. I agree the space could be better used. To be fair, the lots were, as I recall built with MMP, which was initially opened back in 2000. The area has changed substantially, and it would seem a good time to begin to repurpose those lots.

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The massive parking lot, which I think is for Astro's games, would be perfect for an inner loop woodlands gate. That one across 59 from minute maid.

 

Would compliment the Dynamo stadium nicely, take full advantage of the light rail station right there, and make EaDo (such a cheesy name) a serious player.

 

They could build a massive underground parking garage for ball games, similar to the Theater District parking garage, and then develop the land on top of it. Probably have to wait 5-10 years though for the land value to justify it. They could do a similar garage on the blocks north of the ballpark. This is a bit farfetched right now, and lots of suburban baseball fans wouldn't like it, but if we continue growing and densifying, it starts to make sense.

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The massive parking lot, which I think is for Astro's games, would be perfect for an inner loop woodlands gate. That one across 59 from minute maid.

 

Would compliment the Dynamo stadium nicely, take full advantage of the light rail station right there, and make EaDo (such a cheesy name) a serious player.

  

Ive always thought that, what a HUGE waste of prime A1 real estate, those MMP parking lots.

Whats the story with those, do the Astros own the blocks, or are they signed to a long term lease with the land owner?

  

Yeah, but people coming to the games have to have some place to park.

I discussed this extensively in the "parks district" thread for revitalizing that area between Dynamo stadium and mmp in the off topic subforum. They should build a garage next to mmp and develop the other parking lots

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Office buildings seem to do a decent job opening up their garages for Astro game parkers. A ten minute walk would get you to the Four Seasons area from the ballpark. I actually think driving in/parking/driving out is much easier downtown than it ever was at the Dome, so long as you avoid the Toyota Center garage, never park there. Really big garages need a ton of exit routes and traffic coordination, but if everyone just walks another five minutes, they save themselves 10 minutes of waiting in the backup.

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Parking downtown for sporting events is comically easy still. We have 150,000 downtown workers 56.8drive to work alone. There are total of 82,500  parking spots in Downtown Houston (in a 2000 report). Minute Maid parks has a capacity of 40,000. So even if it was filled, and every single person drove to the game--- we'd likely still have plenty of left over parking. In 2010, total parking in the CBD was nearly 100,000 spaces.

 

 

 

Source: http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2014-04-08/2013_Commute_Survey_Report.pdf
http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2010-04-19/7-Parking_Management_Planning_Study.pdf(2000 parking report)

 

http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2010-07-13/Republic_Parking_CBD_Rate_Survey_2010_Garage.pdf(2010 parking report)

 

 

 

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Parking downtown for sporting events is comically easy still. We have 150,000 downtown workers 56.8% drive to work alone. There are total of 82,500 parking spots in Downtown Houston (in a 2000 report). Minute Maid parks has a capacity of 40,000. So even if it was filled, and every single person drove to the game--- we'd likely still have plenty of left over parking. In 2010, total parking in the CBD was nearly 100,000 spaces.

Source: http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2014-04-08/2013_Commute_Survey_Report.pdf

http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2010-04-19/7-Parking_Management_Planning_Study.pdf(2000 parking report)

http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2010-07-13/Republic_Parking_CBD_Rate_Survey_2010_Garage.pdf(2010 parking report)

All of this is true.

But do you really expect Sam and Sally Suburban and their Kids to actually WALK 7 blocks to go to a ballgame after driving 30 miles from the 'burbs? Oh, the horror! The inconvenience! Dear God, think of the children!

It is a basic human right to have parking right there on the property. On-site event parking is what defines America as American. 7 blocks? What are you, some kind of Communist or something?

Holy cow. If Americans wanted to walk, they would live in India or something. damn it man, this is America and we demand 100,000 parking spaces within 10 feet of the ballpark! It's a fitness thing: it is a key ingredient in how we all stay in the shape we are in. And, darn it, as Americans, we really don't want to engage in physical activity, we just want to watch other people do it from section 826 row 5 seat 4. Simple. And anyone who suggests otherwise is fundamentally against America, Texas, and the American way.

There, I said it.

Edited by UtterlyUrban
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All of this is true.

But do you really expect Sam and Sally Suburban and their Kids to actually WALK 7 blocks to go to a ballgame after driving 30 miles from the 'burbs? Oh, the horror! The inconvenience! Dear God, think of the children!

It is a basic human right to have parking right there on the property. On-site event parking is what defines America as American. 7 blocks? What are you, some kind of Communist or something?

Holy cow. If Americans wanted to walk, they would live in India or something. damn it man, this is America and we demand 100,000 parking spaces within 10 feet of the ballpark! It's a fitness thing: it is a key ingredient in how we all stay in the shape we are in. And, darn it, as Americans, we really don't want to engage in physical activity, we just want to watch other people do it from section 826 row 5 seat 4. Simple. And anyone who suggests otherwise is fundamentally against America, Texas, and the American way.

There, I said it.

 

Agree with everything you said. But there is no section 826 at Minute Maid Park.

 

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The last Texans game I attended required about 30 minutes worth of sitting, not moving to clear out the lot next to the stadium where we parked.  I recall similar backups for Oiler and Astro games at the Dome. Event parking at NRG park is more expensive than lots/garages that put your car closer to TC or MMP than you would be to NRG stadium/center. I don't think anyone is really complaining about the downtown parking situation for evening events, or if they are, they shouldn't be. It is tailor made to host them without the monopoly effect of the captive lots around a 350 acre dedicated stadium site. That situation here is far better than events I have attended at Yankee Stadium, Petco Park (San Diego), the old Veterans Stadium in Philly. Don't even get me started on A&M football games in College Station, it is essentially the same situation as NRG, but with an entire city monopolized by the same pay to park cartel.    

 

It would be interesting to overlay a map of NRG park over downtown separately putting NRG stadium centered on TC and MMP. The lots that are over near South Main/McNee would be like parking at Bayou Place or the big Allen Center garage.

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I agree with all of you about downtown parking ease, however the issue with losing those big surface lots around Minute Maid is not real lack of availability, it is perception. If suburban upper middle class families do not see that there are big open lots around Minute Maid, they are going to be spooked into not going to games. They aren't even going to try. And even if something incredible happened and they did all decide to try, the Astros management still thinks they are not going to try, which is why the Astros are not simply going to let those lots disappear and trust the free market to provide parking.

 

The team wants the fan base to be assured that they can, if they want to, park easily near the ballpark and only have one or two streets to cross. That's why I think the only way to get rid of those lots, particularly the giant one across 59, is to build an underground structure that the team can advertise to their season ticket holders. This will also help everyone in the long run because if the neighborhood really does fill up and become exciting, in a city without a meaningful rail system, there WILL be a serious need for parking.

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I agree with all of you about downtown parking ease, however the issue with losing those big surface lots around Minute Maid is not real lack of availability, it is perception. If suburban upper middle class families do not see that there are big open lots around Minute Maid, they are going to be spooked into not going to games. They aren't even going to try. And even if something incredible happened and they did all decide to try, the Astros management still thinks they are not going to try, which is why the Astros are not simply going to let those lots disappear and trust the free market to provide parking.

 

The team wants the fan base to be assured that they can, if they want to, park easily near the ballpark and only have one or two streets to cross. That's why I think the only way to get rid of those lots, particularly the giant one across 59, is to build an underground structure that the team can advertise to their season ticket holders. This will also help everyone in the long run because if the neighborhood really does fill up and become exciting, in a city without a meaningful rail system, there WILL be a serious need for parking.

 

I could also see significant parking garages, similar the one going up just north of the George R. Brown, with structures atop them going up on this site. Most games start after the end of the workday, so there would be plenty of parking for office and for games--although one would want multiple spots for ingress and egress for the garages.

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If the Astros' product is so bad as to have parking perception (as opposed to reality) issues scare away consumers, they have problems with their product bigger than parking perception issues.

 

That is to say, if/when the Astros are worth watching again, this problem solves itself. In the interim you're talking about a problem that is very marginal in terms of attendance impact, certainly not worth developing a giant garage to soothe easily spooked cartoon suburbanites.  Signing a couple of legit pitchers would be cheaper, even at MLB prices.  

 

 

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If the Astros' product is so bad as to have parking perception (as opposed to reality) issues scare away consumers, they have problems with their product bigger than parking perception issues.

 

That is to say, if/when the Astros are worth watching again, this problem solves itself. In the interim you're talking about a problem that is very marginal in terms of attendance impact, certainly not worth developing a giant garage to soothe easily spooked cartoon suburbanites.  Signing a couple of legit pitchers would be cheaper, even at MLB prices.  

 

It really doesn't matter whether we think it's necessary or not. My contention is that the team management is not going to let parking around the stadium go away. No mid-market baseball team will ever be great for an extended period, and the franchise will always have to cater to the suburban family to sell tickets for 81 home games, even when the team is great.

 

And if you read the last part of my post, if this neighborhood fills up with buildings, there will be a massive need for parking. The underground garages at the Theater District and Discovery Green were smart, forward thinking. The same will be true of this area as it fills in.

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Probably time to peel this off in to another thread, but it is interesting to me, so I'l keep on the tangent.

 

 

It really doesn't matter whether we think it's necessary or not. My contention is that the team management is not going to let parking around the stadium go away. No mid-market baseball team will ever be great for an extended period, and the franchise will always have to cater to the suburban family to sell tickets for 81 home games, even when the team is great.

 

And if you read the last part of my post, if this neighborhood fills up with buildings, there will be a massive need for parking. The underground garages at the Theater District and Discovery Green were smart, forward thinking. The same will be true of this area as it fills in.

 

I did read somewhere that DT would be parking constrained (from a daytime worker perspective anyway) if everything on the table goes, it would be wise to lead that trend when it is cheaper to do so.  Putting something else like DG (but of lesser scope) east of 59 sounds pretty cool.

 

I just think that people, even suburbanites, will adapt if given a reason to do so.

 

The cool thing about sports is that they keep stats for everything. Given little change in the parking dynamics over the timeframe, Astros attendance dropped from 38K average in 2004 (at the peak interest level) to less than 20K average in in 2012 (the nadir). I'd call that the performance differential. The current leader in the World Series, San Francisco, has a TV market roughly equivalent to that of Houston and has to share the market with the A's and they have been in he WS 3 out of 5 years. It may be a lurid fantasy to presume Astros mangement could put on a run like that, but fundamentally, it is not impossible.  Maybe urban San Franciscans go to Giants games more than folks from Walnut Creek, but it is certainly not a piece of cake getting around the SF bay area, and they averaged 41.5k this year.

 

Put a contender in MMP and I'd bet that the general growth in the area (to say nothing of the people living really close, in downtown) would more than make up for those scared away by the lack of surface lots in the immediate area. If it could ever be built up like the area around Petco in San Diego, that would be flippin' fantastic. If all of the proposed stuff goes, it will be a long way down that path.

 

 

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Probably time to peel this off in to another thread, but it is interesting to me, so I'l keep on the tangent.

 

 

 

I did read somewhere that DT would be parking constrained (from a daytime worker perspective anyway) if everything on the table goes, it would be wise to lead that trend when it is cheaper to do so.  Putting something else like DG (but of lesser scope) east of 59 sounds pretty cool.

 

I just think that people, even suburbanites, will adapt if given a reason to do so.

 

The cool thing about sports is that they keep stats for everything. Given little change in the parking dynamics over the timeframe, Astros attendance dropped from 38K average in 2004 (at the peak interest level) to less than 20K average in in 2012 (the nadir). I'd call that the performance differential. The current leader in the World Series, San Francisco, has a TV market roughly equivalent to that of Houston and has to share the market with the A's and they have been in he WS 3 out of 5 years. It may be a lurid fantasy to presume Astros mangement could put on a run like that, but fundamentally, it is not impossible.  Maybe urban San Franciscans go to Giants games more than folks from Walnut Creek, but it is certainly not a piece of cake getting around the SF bay area, and they averaged 41.5k this year.

 

Put a contender in MMP and I'd bet that the general growth in the area (to say nothing of the people living really close, in downtown) would more than make up for those scared away by the lack of surface lots in the immediate area. If it could ever be built up like the area around Petco in San Diego, that would be flippin' fantastic. If all of the proposed stuff goes, it will be a long way down that path.

 

AT&T Park in San Francisco has massive surface lot parking. SF also has a substantially larger media market (#6 vs. #10), and a different fan base in that it is less of a family, suburban oriented following. I don't see the Astros risking the loss of adjacent parking facilities. The planners for Discovery Green knew better than to put a park there without providing parking. The Theater District did the same and it has helped guarantee the continued viability of those institutions, even though theoretically there are plenty of office building garages around there that evening theater-goers could park in.

 

What I'm arguing is not that parking for Minute Maid is difficult now, or that Astros' success wouldn't benefit attendance immensely, or that downtown residential development won't to some extent alleviate loss of interest from scared suburbanites. What I'm saying is, if you want to see all those lots surrounding Minute Maid get developed, a large parking structure at least partly controlled by the Astros will be necessary, and that structure would be better underground than above it.

 

Edited by H-Town Man
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AT&T Park in San Francisco has massive surface lot parking. SF also has a substantially larger media market (#6 vs. #10), and a different fan base in that it is less of a family, suburban oriented following. I don't see the Astros risking the loss of adjacent parking facilities. The planners for Discovery Green knew better than to put a park there without providing parking. The Theater District did the same and it has helped guarantee the continued viability of those institutions, even though theoretically there are plenty of office building garages around there that evening theater-goers could park in.

 

What I'm arguing is not that parking for Minute Maid is difficult now, or that Astros' success wouldn't benefit attendance immensely, or that downtown residential development won't to some extent alleviate loss of interest from scared suburbanites. What I'm saying is, if you want to see all those lots surrounding Minute Maid get developed, a large parking structure at least partly controlled by the Astros will be necessary, and that structure would be better underground than above it.

 

MMP controls the parking lots directly south of the park on both sides of 59/69.  I'd like to assume that we could eventually facilitate a 2-3 level (at least) parking structure on one or both of those?  I think this sort of stuff is all in due time, as once this part of Downtown fills in enough the demand will be there for parking structures.

 

Also, San Francisco + Oakland + San Jose = a larger Metro population than Houston:

7.44 million MSA, 8.47 million CSA (for San Francisco), compared to: 6.17 million MSA and 6.37 million CSA (for Houston).

 

Hard to compare a Metro area with 2 million more people than we have.  Obviously it would have a larger TV audience.

 

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AT&T Park in San Francisco has massive surface lot parking. 

 

Yeah, right - a whole 4,000 spaces.  And regardless of whether it's Official Giants Parking or other options, it costs the freakin' earth.

 

In comparison, NRG park has 26,000+ on site.  I don't think I've seen anything much higher than $20 or so at MMP, even back when the Lastros weren't awful. 

 

But Bubba and Sally Farhome are different critters here than in the Bay Area.  I've had Suburbans full of suburbanites gape at me as if I'd turned green and sprouted antennae as I've pulled into an open street spot and gotten out of my car, while they waited in line to pay to park in an adjacent lot.  In contrast, AT&T is super easy to get to via BART and/or MUNI - and trust me, the MUNI Metro and BART were packed for the games I've gone to there.  Oh, and BART does go to Walnut Creek, and makes it into the city in about 35 minutes.  Perhaps you could match that time driving to a weekend game, but likely not.  First you get the joy that is the Caldecott Tunnel, then the ever exciting MacArthur Maze, and then this:

TRAFFIC.jpg

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