Exhaustive report: The poorer the neighborhood, higher the likelihood of pedestrian fatalities (thanks to freeways and high speed roads)

[august948]

If there aren't marked crosswalks what are you supposed to do? Even if you are jaywalking cars shouldn't be going at such speeds that they would mow you down.

 

If you want to cross the road and there are no signals to the drivers that you might cross the road then you do so at your own peril.  It's really not that hard.  Remember "look both ways before you cross"?

 

[august948]

And if pedestrians are crossing, that doesn't give you the right to kill them.

 

 

That statement is laughable.  Do you think drivers are out to kill pedestrians?

 

You've watched this movie a few too many times...

 

[IronTiger]

That movie was profiled on CinemaSins yesterday, actually.

[Slick Vik]

The report says that the ped/driver fatalities involved 15,232 deaths at non-intersection points. At intersections or intersection-related, that's around 5,000.

As for the "arterials through poor neighborhoods because FREEWAYS", the data doesn't actually mention that, it was some irrelevant (and incorrect) anti-freeway bit that was added onto the article (not the report) because there are people that think the same way you do.

It was irrelevant only in your own mind. If you choose to ignore it because you don't like it that's on you. Accept reality and find a way to move forward. I suggest lowering all speed limits to 30 mph except freeways.

[august948]

It was irrelevant only in your own mind. If you choose to ignore it because you don't like it that's on you. Accept reality and find a way to move forward. I suggest lowering all speed limits to 30 mph except freeways.

 

Let's do that, then.  And for the roads that currently have speed limits greater than 30mph, lets...convert them into freeways!

 

[IronTiger]

It was irrelevant only in your own mind. If you choose to ignore it because you don't like it that's on you. Accept reality and find a way to move forward. I suggest lowering all speed limits to 30 mph except freeways.

Please don't take the high ground again and tell me I'm ignorant and need to "accept reality". Everything you've said concerns more of punishing drivers than actually stopping pedestrian deaths, and when anyone tries to talk about jaywalking, you've given nonsense rhetoric like "You're just brainwashed by the auto industry" or "You want to run down and kill people".

[Slick Vik]

Let's do that, then. And for the roads that currently have speed limits greater than 30mph, lets...convert them into freeways!

Yes to the first part, no to the second part.

Please don't take the high ground again and tell me I'm ignorant and need to "accept reality". Everything you've said concerns more of punishing drivers than actually stopping pedestrian deaths, and when anyone tries to talk about jaywalking, you've given nonsense rhetoric like "You're just brainwashed by the auto industry" or "You want to run down and kill people".

The facts are the facts. Because you don't like them you call them irrelevant.

[IronTiger]

The facts are that most of the deaths are jaywalking related, and you've given excuses how there should be no personal responsibility involved and instead try to use extremism and fallacies to argue this.

[Ross]

I can name four off the top off my head: 35, 2351, 1959, and old galveston road which have 50 mph speed limits.

According to the researchers many arterials were built as a result of freeways which usually went through poor neighborhoods.

And if pedestrians are crossing, that doesn't give you the right to kill them.

You are another sucker that has fallen for the criminalizing of jaywalking as well.

 

Has anyone argued that cars have the right to kill pedestrians? How is it my fault if an idiot pedestrian steps in front of my car when I am following the rules and do not have time to stop (this can happen at 5mph too)? Car drivers do not typically speed up to hit jay walkers, the pedestrians do something stupid and get themselves killed. I don't really care if jay walking is criminalized or not, but pedestrians need to have some amount of common sense and avoid walking across streets without looking. That applied in horse drawn carriage days as much as it does now.

 

[Slick Vik]

The facts are that most of the deaths are jaywalking related, and you've given excuses how there should be no personal responsibility involved and instead try to use extremism and fallacies to argue this.

And the fact is lack of infrastructure and higher speed roads in poor areas leads to more pedestrians deaths. Again you're blaming people for dying instead of looking at WHY.

[Slick Vik]

Has anyone argued that cars have the right to kill pedestrians? How is it my fault if an idiot pedestrian steps in front of my car when I am following the rules and do not have time to stop (this can happen at 5mph too)? Car drivers do not typically speed up to hit jay walkers, the pedestrians do something stupid and get themselves killed. I don't really care if jay walking is criminalized or not, but pedestrians need to have some amount of common sense and avoid walking across streets without looking. That applied in horse drawn carriage days as much as it does now.

Again you're blaming pedestrians for deaths instead of the person driving a machine while possibly distracted. Brakes are powerful in most situations you could avoid hitting a pedestrian. Your sad analogy is stating people knowingly try to put their life at risk.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Again you're blaming pedestrians for deaths instead of the person driving a machine while possibly distracted. Brakes are powerful in most situations you could avoid hitting a pedestrian. Your sad analogy is stating people knowingly try to put their life at risk.

 

Go back and read the rant that I wrote this morning about people walking in the street (often with kids) when there's a sidewalk 10' away.

 

I can't say whether they're risking the lives of themselves and their kids knowingly or out of sheer ignorance, but I see it every day.  Yes, it is the driver's responsibility to avoid a collision with a pedestrian, but how much of the responsibility also lies with the pedestrian? 

[IronTiger]

And the fact is lack of infrastructure and higher speed roads in poor areas leads to more pedestrians deaths. Again you're blaming people for dying instead of looking at WHY.

Lack of infrastructure doesn't apply if people are jaywalking, unless you want to put up fences (which is what some bar districts have done). Since the data didn't mention comparisons to wealthier neighborhoods or roads with higher speeds, if it is poorer neighborhoods where jaywalking is done, it might be because people in poor neighborhoods might not have had the education to not cross the road at any time they please. However, because that runs counter-intuitive to your pre-set idea that it's always the driver's fault, that clearly can't be the solution.

Again you're blaming pedestrians for deaths instead of the person driving a machine while possibly distracted. Brakes are powerful in most situations you could avoid hitting a pedestrian. Your sad analogy is stating people knowingly try to put their life at risk.

Again, you have this idea that it's never the pedestrian's fault, ever, while making stuff up like jaywalking rules are bad because the auto industry pushed for it (even if that's true that doesn't make it automatically wrong), or that drivers run over pedestrians because they like it (which is false most of the time and you know it)

Let's take a look at the fallacies used by you, for instance...

Fallacy of the single cause (higher speeds only causes death)

Moral high ground fallacy (should be noted in previous posts)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc (assuming that freeways caused deterioration of neighborhoods when that's not necessarily the case always--Harrisburg continued to decline, for instance)

Poisoning the well (using your hatred of the auto industry to discredit jaywalking)

[JLWM8609]

Brakes are powerful in most situations you could avoid hitting a pedestrian.

 

Braking power varies depends on a variety of factors including pavement conditions, weather, tire condition, car weight, brake disc/drum and pad condition, and even shock absorber condition. Stopping distance is a combination of reaction time and braking distance. The average stopping distance from 30 mph to 0 is 23 meters, or about 75 feet. That's in ideal conditions. If a pedestrian steps out in front of a car going 30 mph at a distance of 75 feet or less, there's a great possibility that car won't be able to avoid that pedestrian.

 

Jaywalking in traffic is similar to when drivers try to beat a train at the railroad crossing. The driver sees the large train coming and thinks its going slower than it actually is, and starts crossing the tracks anyway. The train engineer sees the car on the tracks a few hundred feet away and hits the emergency brake. At 30 mph, the train is traveling 44 feet per second, and it takes a 150-car freight train traveling 30 mph up to 2/3 mile to come to a complete stop. Do you think it's the train engineer's fault for hitting that car?

[august948]

Again you're blaming pedestrians for deaths instead of the person driving a machine while possibly distracted. Brakes are powerful in most situations you could avoid hitting a pedestrian. Your sad analogy is stating people knowingly try to put their life at risk.

 

A train has powerful brakes and they're mounted on all rail cars, not just the engine.  Yet cars (and some pedestrians) are hit by trains al lthe time.  Shouldn't we therefore ban trains since they are not using their powerful brakes to stop and avoid hitting cars on the tracks, even if the car is there due to the stupidity of the driver?  Are those drivers unknowingly putting their lives at risk by crossing a railroad track?

[mkultra25]

That statement is laughable.  Do you think drivers are out to kill pedestrians?

 

You've watched this movie a few too many times...

 

 

Heh. After reading more of this thread than I probably should've, a similar thought occurred to me - not the movie, but the infamous 1970s arcade videogame "Death Race". Points were racked up by running down zombie pedestrians, and when you did so, they screamed and a tombstone popped up. 

 

Apparently Exidy only made 500 or so units, but Houston must've been a popular market for them, as I remember seeing (and playing) several of them. Clearly this must've been an insidious plot to prepare countless kids to mete out gasoline-powered justice to careless pedestrians once they reached adulthood and became card-carrying members of the Cult of the Automobile. 

 

[kylejack]

If you want to cross the road and there are no signals to the drivers that you might cross the road then you do so at your own peril.  It's really not that hard.  Remember "look both ways before you cross"?

 

 

Of course. 

 

And City government should be doing a much better job of installing crosswalks where people are likely to cross. 

[Ross]

Again you're blaming pedestrians for deaths instead of the person driving a machine while possibly distracted. Brakes are powerful in most situations you could avoid hitting a pedestrian. Your sad analogy is stating people knowingly try to put their life at risk.

If a pedestrian steps out in front of a vehicle within the distance it takes for the vehicle to stop, the pedestrian is going to be hit. I cannot stop from 30mph in 10 feet, and neither can you. If a pedestrian steps in front of me, I will do everything within my power to avoid them. However, the laws of physics cannot be overridden, and the pedestrian loses almost every time.

[august948]

Of course. 

 

And City government should be doing a much better job of installing crosswalks where people are likely to cross. 

 

I agree.  They should also put more priority on sidewalk installation/repair and hike/bikeways.  I have seen some progress on both of those, particulalry hike and bike trails, in the last 15 years and I hope they can accelerate both in the future.

 

[kylejack]

If a pedestrian steps out in front of a vehicle within the distance it takes for the vehicle to stop, the pedestrian is going to be hit. I cannot stop from 30mph in 10 feet, and neither can you. If a pedestrian steps in front of me, I will do everything within my power to avoid them. However, the laws of physics cannot be overridden, and the pedestrian loses almost every time.

 

He's talking about most situations, you're trying to hyperanalyze one specific situation. Most pedestrians aren't killed due to stepping out in front of a car that is 10 feet away, so it's not a good example of "most situations."

[infinite_jim]

I think the heart of the issue is that people speed where they shouldn't be speeding like parking lots, doing 60 mph downtown with blind corners, neighborhood side streets, etc. Visibility and jaywalking are a relevant factor in many pedestrian accidents but speed is the main factor in many deaths. I also believe that younger (and poorer) drivers are more likely to be scofflaw drivers who ignore posted limits due the general convenience and thrill of speeding, the familiarity of the route taken, and a general lack of consistent law enforcement.

[infinite_jim]

Of course. 

 

And City government should be doing a much better job of installing crosswalks where people are likely to cross.

Ever notice how places where there are many many pedestrians like around the downtown transit center there's only painted cross walks (faded but still visible) but around the skyline district downtown(where people are only really out around lunch time) the crosswalks all are paved with brick? Same TIRZ; but perhaps it speaks to the economic justice meted out to our lessor fortunate citizens.

But hey... What's the difference between faded white striping and rough hewn brick on driving behavior? Absolutely nothing I'm sure..

[kylejack]

Ever notice how places where there are many many pedestrians like around the downtown transit center there's only painted cross walks (faded but still visible) but around the skyline district downtown(where people are only really out around lunch time) the crosswalks all are paved with brick? Same TIRZ; but perhaps it speaks to the economic justice meted out to our lessor fortunate citizens.

But hey... What's the difference between faded white striping and rough hewn brick on driving behavior? Absolutely nothing I'm sure..

 

Yep. I live near a crosswalk on Dunlavy that doesn't have a stop sign at the intersection. Motorists are supposed to yield to pedestrians in a marked crosswalk, but you should see the children and elderly trying to cross there. The pedestrian is a target in this town, even when obeying the law.  

[Slick Vik]

Lack of infrastructure doesn't apply if people are jaywalking, unless you want to put up fences (which is what some bar districts have done). Since the data didn't mention comparisons to wealthier neighborhoods or roads with higher speeds, if it is poorer neighborhoods where jaywalking is done, it might be because people in poor neighborhoods might not have had the education to not cross the road at any time they please. However, because that runs counter-intuitive to your pre-set idea that it's always the driver's fault, that clearly can't be the solution.

Again, you have this idea that it's never the pedestrian's fault, ever, while making stuff up like jaywalking rules are bad because the auto industry pushed for it (even if that's true that doesn't make it automatically wrong), or that drivers run over pedestrians because they like it (which is false most of the time and you know it)

Let's take a look at the fallacies used by you, for instance...

Fallacy of the single cause (higher speeds only causes death)

Moral high ground fallacy (should be noted in previous posts)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc (assuming that freeways caused deterioration of neighborhoods when that's not necessarily the case always--Harrisburg continued to decline, for instance)

Poisoning the well (using your hatred of the auto industry to discredit jaywalking)

It does apply if there's no crosswalk at all.

Usually higher speeds cause death. Better chance of survival if you're going 5 mph instead of 45 mph.

Again freeways caused high speed artierial roads which usually went through poor neighborhoods. Understand and absorb that.

I sent you an article with evidence about how the auto industry criminalized jaywalking.

Your argument is like saying aggie deserve to die if they have a bonfire.

If a pedestrian steps out in front of a vehicle within the distance it takes for the vehicle to stop, the pedestrian is going to be hit. I cannot stop from 30mph in 10 feet, and neither can you. If a pedestrian steps in front of me, I will do everything within my power to avoid them. However, the laws of physics cannot be overridden, and the pedestrian loses almost every time.

Ultimate straw man argument

[IronTiger]

Add "ad hominem attack" to list of fallacies, too!

If not an ad hominem attack, it's certainly tactless and if you want to save face in this "argument"/avoid any potential repercussions, I suggest you edit your post while you still have the chance.

[Slick Vik]

Add "ad hominem attack" to list of fallacies, too!

If not an ad hominem attack, it's certainly tactless and if you want to save face in this "argument"/avoid any potential repercussions, I suggest you edit your post while you still have the chance.

Not an attack, just saying how ridiculous your idea that a pedestrian is responsible for his Own death most of the time; put in terms you can understand.

[IronTiger]

Not an attack, just saying how ridiculous your idea that a pedestrian is responsible for his Own death most of the time; put in terms you can understand.

You know that it's an attack, don't play games with me.

As for this incredulity about death, if the data shows its 70% jaywalking, and barring some rare incidents (driver runs off the road, someone pushed onto the street) that's pretty telling. These things are a case by case basis, of course, but a lot of these things can be prevented with common sense on the pedestrian's part.

[Slick Vik]

You know that it's an attack, don't play games with me.

As for this incredulity about death, if the data shows its 70% jaywalking, and barring some rare incidents (driver runs off the road, someone pushed onto the street) that's pretty telling. These things are a case by case basis, of course, but a lot of these things can be prevented with common sense on the pedestrian's part.

It's not an attack just giving you back your own silly argument in terms you can understand.

A lot of this can be prevented by improving infrastructure for pedestrians and lowering speeds for cars to a reasonable level like 30 mph. Look at what Sweden has done.

The issue is drivers and their convenience have been the focus of road design for so long that pedestrians and bicyclists are just now getting attention. Roads are for everyone not just cars and changing that mindset is going to take a lot of effort from the top down. So many times I see drivers literally angry at seeing a bicyclist on the road or having to wait for a pedestrian crossing the road. Get over it, it's due time.

[Ross]

He's talking about most situations, you're trying to hyperanalyze one specific situation. Most pedestrians aren't killed due to stepping out in front of a car that is 10 feet away, so it's not a good example of "most situations."

 

Unless you are trying to argue that most drivers are looking for pedestrians to kill, it's a good analog for most situations. The variables are speed and visibility. If I am legally driving 30 miles an hour and a pedestrian steps out into the moving lane of traffic in less distance than I can stop in, the pedestrian is going to get hit unless there is room to swerve.

 

Regardless of whether the situation is optimum, cars rule the road. That is not going to change., I really do not care what Sweden, a tiny country with a homogeneous population and a culture of following every little edict that comes out of government, does, it's generally not applicable here.

[IronTiger]

It's not an attack just giving you back your own silly argument in terms you can understand.

A lot of this can be prevented by improving infrastructure for pedestrians and lowering speeds for cars to a reasonable level like 30 mph. Look at what Sweden has done.

The issue is drivers and their convenience have been the focus of road design for so long that pedestrians and bicyclists are just now getting attention. Roads are for everyone not just cars and changing that mindset is going to take a lot of effort from the top down. So many times I see drivers literally angry at seeing a bicyclist on the road or having to wait for a pedestrian crossing the road. Get over it, it's due time.

A silly argument is that jaywalking is okay because the auto industry made it a finable offense (because apparently in your mind anything the auto industry does = bad, evil), and when others point out any flaws in your arguments which you keep repeating (because that apparently makes them true) you chimp out and start making even more worthless arguments (in mocking a human tragedy, that would be like "You deserved to die if you went to work to the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001"). That was why I suggested that you delete it to save face and prevent yourself looking like a tactless buffoon, which many HAIFers have already come to accept. As for your last statement, it's difficult to gauge that since so many of your "observations" conveniently line up with your line of thinking, even if it's not true (like, "I never see anyone walking under the Pierce Elevated").

It's pretty worthless to continue this at this point, since we've already gotten to the point where your tired, pre-set arguments about how cars and freeways are the root of all evil, and gone straight into the insult territory, at least veiled insult territory.

I'll leave you alone in the echo chamber now.