HOV Toll Revenue

[august948]

That's a brochure. Id like to see a direct quote from a HCTRA official. If this WAS true it would've been advertised a lot more than a simple brochure.

 

You're probably not ever going to see one as holding onto the revenue stream was their real intention.  The existence of the brochure, though, is pretty good evidence someone was trying to mislead the public at the time.

 

[Houston19514]

You're probably not ever going to see one as holding onto the revenue stream was their real intention.  The existence of the brochure, though, is pretty good evidence someone was trying to mislead the public at the time.

 

 

Except that the alleged brochure (has anyone actually seen and read this alleged brochure?) was, by the "reporter's" own statement, printed after the bond vote was passed.   That's a pretty odd way to pull off a scam.  Another fundamentally dishonest, incompetent piece of trash journalism.

[BigFootsSocks]

You're probably not ever going to see one as holding onto the revenue stream was their real intention. The existence of the brochure, though, is pretty good evidence someone was trying to mislead the public at the time.

A brochure is not a credible source though.

[august948]

A brochure is not a credible source though.

 

Even if put out by the government agency in question?  What happened then, a rouge secretary somewhere decided to write and print it?

 

[august948]

Except that the alleged brochure (has anyone actually seen and read this alleged brochure?) was, by the "reporter's" own statement, printed after the bond vote was passed.   That's a pretty odd way to pull off a scam.  Another fundamentally dishonest, incompetent piece of trash journalism.

 

A good point.  So why would someone at HCTRA write and have printed a brochure with that language, especially after the vote?  There certainly has been a persistant rumor/ubran myth for years that the toll roads were to be free after they were paid off.  I don't think that came from nowhere.

 

[Trae]

You speak for everyone in the city of Houston? Damn I didn't get that memo..

You would rather pay to drive on freeways?

[BigFootsSocks]

You would rather pay to drive on freeways?

Never said that. Actually, I've said multiple times I don't like tolls. I just understand that they're simply the only option for TXDOT in this economic climate.

[BigFootsSocks]

Even if put out by the government agency in question? What happened then, a rouge secretary somewhere decided to write and print it?

Unless there is a direct quote from any high ranking official in HCTRA that explicitly said this then no, it is not. Anyone can write up a brochure a distribute it and put the HCTRA logo on it.

[Houston19514]

A good point.  So why would someone at HCTRA write and have printed a brochure with that language, especially after the vote?  There certainly has been a persistant rumor/ubran myth for years that the toll roads were to be free after they were paid off.  I don't think that came from nowhere.

 

 

You are assuming that (a) the alleged "brochure" actually exists, ( that, if it exists, it said what Wayne Dolcefino claims it said, © that, if it exists, it was anything more than a draft that was never published or distributed. 

 

 

Here is what we know:

 

1) We have zero evidence that the toll roads were sold to the public on the basis of eventually being free.  If the tollroads were sold to the public on that basis, don't you think our crack investigative reporter would have been able to come up with some shred of evidence from before the vote was taken; you know, a reporter who can find random "brochures" in random downtown buildings; surely there would be evidence from before the vote in public records, newspaper and TV archives, etc etc)? 

 

2) Wayne Dolcefino, a reporter known to have made reports that cast false light (to put it nicely), claimed in an otherwise fundamentally dishonest report that he found a "brochure" in a downtown building that was "from the early days of the Toll Road Authority".  Wayne claimed that the brochure promises "When both roads combined have covered their costs, the roads will become free public highways."  This is classic Dolcefino.  He doesn't exactly say it is a Toll Road Authority brochure. He just lets his audience infer it (and this is assuming there really is a brochure;  why does the website not show the "brochure?"  It shows us a picture of a toll plaza; it could surely show us the premise of the  whole report.  Anyone familiar with Dolcefino's career should put very little weight on the words of this alleged brochure.

 

Urban rumors don't come from nowhere?  If you really believe that, you should spend a few minutes on Snopes.com or just read a few of Slick Vic's posts on this forum. 

[LTAWACS]

I don't *think* so. I seriously doubt it.

I don't have the hctra analysis in front of me but I'm certain the large number of commiters from the far flung suberbs had something to do with it.

[Slick Vik]

You are assuming that (a) the alleged "brochure" actually exists, ( that, if it exists, it said what Wayne Dolcefino claims it said, © that, if it exists, it was anything more than a draft that was never published or distributed.

Here is what we know:

1) We have zero evidence that the toll roads were sold to the public on the basis of eventually being free. If the tollroads were sold to the public on that basis, don't you think our crack investigative reporter would have been able to come up with some shred of evidence from before the vote was taken; you know, a reporter who can find random "brochures" in random downtown buildings; surely there would be evidence from before the vote in public records, newspaper and TV archives, etc etc)?

2) Wayne Dolcefino, a reporter known to have made reports that cast false light (to put it nicely), claimed in an otherwise fundamentally dishonest report that he found a "brochure" in a downtown building that was "from the early days of the Toll Road Authority". Wayne claimed that the brochure promises "When both roads combined have covered their costs, the roads will become free public highways." This is classic Dolcefino. He doesn't exactly say it is a Toll Road Authority brochure. He just lets his audience infer it (and this is assuming there really is a brochure; why does the website not show the "brochure?" It shows us a picture of a toll plaza; it could surely show us the premise of the whole report. Anyone familiar with Dolcefino's career should put very little weight on the words of this alleged brochure.

Urban rumors don't come from nowhere? If you really believe that, you should spend a few minutes on Snopes.com or just read a few of Slick Vic's posts on this forum.

Watch yourself

[IronTiger]

Watch yourself

Yeah, that was uncalled for, but the point was "perpetrating misinformation", which you've done before (whether accidentally or deliberately, either way).

[Ross]

Well I think most of us so do not want to pay additional fees to drive on the bloody freeway.

 

But tolling is the only way the road gets built. Without tolls, you have no road. The nice thing about toll roads is that the people who use them pay for them.

 

[LTAWACS]

I've seen this said a few times before but I've never seen a source. Maybe they did, but I just don't buy it. They wouldn't willingly give up a source of income as big as this. They're a business, and they need more income to expand and continue to operate. Making this free just because it seems like a nice thing to do isn't a good enough reason.

Government agencies are not "businesses" that need to grow and expand. They exist solely to serve the public/taxpayers.

Why does the hctra need to collect tolls? To pay the construction costs of building MORE toll roads? So they can erect toll booths in order to collect revenue to fund even more toll roads so the can erect toll booths in order to collect revenue to fund even more toll roads??????

Where does this nickel and dime robbery end????

[LTAWACS]

Never said that. Actually, I've said multiple times I don't like tolls. I just understand that they're simply the only option for TXDOT in this economic climate.

Option to do what?

[LTAWACS]

But tolling is the only way the road gets built. Without tolls, you have no road. The nice thing about toll roads is that the people who use them pay for them.

Hogwash! How did all the other highways get built?

New ones could be built/expanded the same way.

[IronTiger]

Hogwash! How did all the other highways get built?

New ones could be built/expanded the same way.

Uh, no. The original highways, built before ~1970 had bigger budgets, fewer restrictions (such as environmental studies) and a tendency to just plow through neighborhoods without a lot of thought.   

[Ross]

Hogwash! How did all the other highways get built?

New ones could be built/expanded the same way.

 

You might want to peruse a state budget some time. The mental giants in Austin don't like spending money, and most of the roads we need or want here will not get funded. So, tolls it is.

 

[BigFootsSocks]

Government agencies are not "businesses" that need to grow and expand. They exist solely to serve the public/taxpayers.

Why does the hctra need to collect tolls? To pay the construction costs of building MORE toll roads? So they can erect toll booths in order to collect revenue to fund even more toll roads so the can erect toll booths in order to collect revenue to fund even more toll roads??????

Where does this nickel and dime robbery end????

How convent that you finally address this single topic after seeing someone else point out its inaccuracy. But do please ignore everything else posted.

[IronTiger]

Well, this topic's going nowhere fast. The original question was how much METRO made on tolls. After informing that it was HCTRA and not METRO that ran the toll booths and gave some links that may be helpful, I expected that the topic would be answered and fall to the bottom of the list, not continue re-popping up like a bloated corpse.

 

Some things to keep in mind:

1) No one at TxDOT or HCTRA said that the tolls would go away once it was "paid off". That did happen to a turnpike in Dallas, but not here. That was a rumor and established as such.

2) HCTRA doesn't give out their numbers, so there's no proof that they're pocketing a huge profit or losing money every day. We just don't know.

3) The Hardy Toll Road isn't "paid off" either way. They may have reached self-sufficiency now, but they were still losing money in the first years of opening.

 

Can we please move on now? 

[BigFootsSocks]

Yeah this went south pretty quick. Just like three other threads...

[JamesL]

Back on topic, was the question ever answered? $6.5 Million per year is METRO's annual HOT revenue. The project cost $67 million but 80% came from federal grants.

 

http://www.ridemetro.org/AboutUs/Board/PublicHearings/pdfs/Draft-FY15-091714.pdf

http://abc13.com/archive/8550407/

 

To be clear, METRO is not involved in the Katy Managed Lanes.

[BigFootsSocks]

Oh wow that was the first actual answer we got here, thanks! That's not too bad, a lot more than I expected.