TxDOT Identifies Post Office As High Speed Rail Station

[Slick Vik]

 

Engineer Sam Lott with Kimley-Horn and Associates lead a study for TxDOT that considered several possible downtown locations. The site they identified as the most appropriate for a high-speed rail stop is the block currently occupied by the Amtrak Station and the main post office. 

 

He says if Houstonians don't change the way they get around, the city could face massive all-day congestion on both its freeways and surface streets in the next 25 years. 

 

http://app1.kuhf.org/articles/1386612554-Study-Looks-At-Possible-Site-For-A-Train-Station-If-High-Speed-Rail-Comes-To-Houston.html

 

Edited January 16, 2014 by Slick Vik

[cloud713]

Ugh.. WHYYY??? Heh, but seriously.. why? The post office site doesn't even have access to the light rail system... What's wrong with the hardy yards site?

[ricco67]

Ugh.. WHYYY??? Heh, but seriously.. why? The post office site doesn't even have access to the light rail system... What's wrong with the hardy yards site?

C'mon! The walk isn't that big of a deal!

[Naviguessor]

The Post Office site doesn't have direct rail access, that's true.  But, UHD is just a couple blocks and I think could be fairly easily linked via a climate controlled skywalk (with moving sidwalks).  The fact that the Post Office Site is within the downtown boundries gives all of the advantages of location and access, not to mention a beautiful gateway.   

[Subdude]

I suspect the choice was based on 

1) Existing right-of-way for tracks is right there and

2) The Post Office has indicated their interest in getting rid of the site

3) The intermodal station was killed off anyway

 

The location doesn't make as much sense as the intermodal station would have, but it's probably a decent compromise.  

[urban909]

It looks like a good spot as it can easily connect into the 290 corridor or, with a little more work, the Hardy Tollway corridor.

[aarosurf]

The new green/purple lines under construction are already extending west through downtown almost to the bayou, wouldn't take much more to link them to this site.

[Sky-guy]

I'm happy it's planned to be downtown and not out in Katy somewhere.

[cloud713]

Well yes that is certainly relieving that it's not out in jersey village or spring..

And yeah I agree urban909, those were two routes I highlighted for high speed or commuter rail in my ideal transit plan for Houston.. But both of those same tracks could go through the hardy yards site, which is at the ideal Burnett transit station. Unless they turned the basement of UHD into a terminal for rail, with an escalator coming up to street level to connect into light rail system at the UHD transit center.. Both of those are much better that dropping people off in a desolate northwest quadrant of downtown... Though I'm sure a big mixed use development would follow the terminal...

[bachanon]

if you look at a map of the downtown post office, the rail line connects to the line going north up the hardy toll road (and the hardy extension to downtown) and heads from downtown to the northwest corridor.  it is at the intersection of rail right of way that goes "where rail needs to go".  it seems like an obvious choice.

[mfastx]

The Hardy Yards area is easily the best place to construct a modern high speed rail station.  It has direct access to a modern elevated light rail station with all downtown locations assessable within minutes, lots of space to construct parking/rental car facilities, most potential for redevelopment being right next to White Oak Bayou, and lots of space for new above the rail level boarding platforms as all of the freight lines have been taken out (so no need to worry about clearance with freight cars). 

 

We don't need a fancy station like we saw in the original intermodal renderings, just a clean, climate controlled, modern station.  A good example of such a station would be St. Louis's Amtrak station.  I would post a pic but the function doesn't seem to be working ATM.

[cloud713]

if you look at a map of the downtown post office, the rail line connects to the line going north up the hardy toll road (and the hardy extension to downtown) and heads from downtown to the northwest corridor.  it is at the intersection of rail right of way that goes "where rail needs to go".  it seems like an obvious choice.

trust me.. i have spent hours looking at maps of Houston. im well aware both lines go through the post office site.. but if you follow the same rail roads, a line from the west could just as easily branch to the hardy yards at the fork east of Studemont.. just as a line from the north could just as easily turn west at the rail intersection east of Leona/Maury Streets, going along the south side of the Hardy Yards site.. the same rail that the high speed line from the west could run into. the hardy yards site is just as obvious of a choice, as the post office site, if not much more obvious since it actually connects directly into the light rail system. i still dont see what they plan to do with all of the passengers when they get dropped off at the post office site.. thats like half a mile from the nearest light rail station. they would almost certainly need to built a spur from the post office site to one of the current light rail lines, in which case that requires another transfer to other transit. seems like the hardy yards site would be the way to go..

Edited January 17, 2014 by cloud713

[mollusk]

Full circle.  The Southern Pacific station was torn down to make way for the post office, at the end of the era when Southern Pacific had about the same transportation stature that United/former Continental have here now.  The green/purple lines could easily jog over there, particularly when one considers that the current HPD complex is apparently not long for this world either, and continue on out to the west.

[cloud713]

Full circle. The Southern Pacific station was torn down to make way for the post office, at the end of the era when Southern Pacific had about the same transportation stature that United/former Continental have here now. The green/purple lines could easily jog over there, particularly when one considers that the current HPD complex is apparently not long for this world either, and continue on out to the west.

Haha, I thought it was pretty interesting too that the site may come full circle.

I'm not 100% on what property the hpd site is that your referring to, but the purple/green lines come out way west of the post office site.. They would have to do a u turn practically to get back to the post office site. Not to mention that u turn would have to go through existing buildings and parking lots.. All that besides the fact a u turn back to the post office site would be out of the way for any future route going west from where the purple and green lines end (like extending it down memorial)..

[Moore713]

In terms of residential hi rises on the west side perhaps the possible sale of the police property on Washington and Houston Ave. and the Post Office on Franklin also could be the future site for a mixed use residential development. The views from there would be spectacular and Washington Ave is a straight shot into downtown

 

 

From what I understand the Post office is being looked at as a possible central station for the purposed dallas to Gouston rail

[urban909]

From what I understand the Post office is being looked at as a possible central station for the purposed dallas to Gouston rail

 

Talk about an amazing place for a TOD.

[cloud713]

Talk about an amazing place for a TOD.

I agree the post office site would make for a nice large scale mixed use city centre style development, with high rises, but that still doesn't answer what people are supposed to do to connect into the light rail system. The post office location is half a mile from any light rail stations.. Surely they don't expect people to walk half a mile in the sweltering Houston heat/humidity, or a in the middle of one of our numerous unexpected pouring down rain storms..

I just feel like they could of done the exact same thing at the hardy yards site, only better since it connects straight into the LRT system at Burnett station.

[Moore713]

I agree the post office site would make for a nice large scale mixed use city centre style development, with high rises, but that still doesn't answer what people are supposed to do to connect into the light rail system. The post office location is half a mile from any light rail stations.. Surely they don't expect people to walk half a mile in the sweltering Houston heat/humidity, or a in the middle of one of our numerous unexpected pouring down rain storms..

I just feel like they could of done the exact same thing at the hardy yards site, only better since it connects straight into the LRT system at Burnett station.

Actually I think this could work out .. We could bring back the central hub concept which would have created a actual  hub for the taxis to gather at, as well as Greyhound( that was what the intermodel purposed right ?)

 

If not  you could expand oon the greenlink concept as a short hop serivice

[cloud713]

It could work out, but that would require more waiting and transfers for the greenlink or whichever transportation they decide to extend to the post office site.

It just doesn't seem like the logical choice.. The logical choice in Dallas would be union station where 4 light rail lines and a commuter rail line merge together.. Not some station over half a mile away from any sort of local mass transit.

[Moore713]

It could work out, but that would require more waiting and transfers for the greenlink or whichever transportation they decide to extend to the post office site.

It just doesn't seem like the logical choice.. The logical choice in Dallas would be union station where 4 light rail lines and a commuter rail line merge together.. Not some station over half a mile away from any sort of local mass transit.

 

Unless you create the hotel link (based on green lnk) split the routes with one bus heading down main and another heading toward convention district those areas are the heavest conceration of hotels...

 

 

Secondary if you create the Taxi hub that is what five bucks ? at the most for anywhere downtown

 

long story short there are ways around it it just depends on how inventive we get...

 

 

I think the reason they are looking at the post office so hard is that it all ready has a rail line running thu it in the back and that would seriously reduce cost.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Moore713

[HoustonIsHome]

I agree with Moore.

The site is only about four blocks from the Green line and about 5 blocks from Preston station.

A green link connector could be set up.

Also the 36, 66 and 85 buses run right by the site.

My favorite option however would be what is never talked about- rail service to the heights. We could have one starting at the post office site going west on Franklin to Washington. Then continue on Washington ti Old Katy road where it will terminate at the proposed 290 commuter rail. So basically you can take high speed rail to Houston, then light rail to 290, then commuter rail to the burbs. All connecting to the Post Office intermodal station.

The heights rail could probably intersect going north on Sawyer?

[HoustonIsHome]

I don't see the big issue. This thing is IN downtown

What really grinds my gears is that you guys keep refering to THE rail line this and the rail line that.

Common people Houston is growing past the red line. Why can't the post office station be connected by light rail?

Edited January 17, 2014 by HoustonIsHome

[cloud713]

I agree with Moore.

The site is only about four blocks from the Green line and about 5 blocks from Preston station.

A green link connector could be set up.

Also the 36, 66 and 85 buses run right by the site.

My favorite option however would be what is never talked about- rail service to the heights. We could have one starting at the post office site going west on Franklin to Washington. Then continue on Washington ti Old Katy road where it will terminate at the proposed 290 commuter rail. So basically you can take high speed rail to Houston, then light rail to 290, then commuter rail to the burbs. All connecting to the Post Office intermodal station.

The heights rail could probably intersect going north on Sawyer?

While Moore has a point, those same trains could just as easily branch off to line that runs through the hardy yards site.

Rail service to the heights has been discussed, but why wouldn't you want to just have the whole route be commuter rail down the Hempstead/amtrak tracks all the way into downtown or hardy yards instead of having to take a slower light rail out of the city to then transfer to commuter rail.

Can washington handle light rail taking up row? I know a streetcar has been discussed for it

[HoustonIsHome]

While Moore has a point, those same trains could just as easily branch off to line that runs through the hardy yards site.

Rail service to the heights has been discussed, but why wouldn't you want to just have the whole route be commuter rail down the Hempstead/amtrak tracks all the way into downtown or hardy yards instead of having to take a slower light rail out of the city to then transfer to commuter rail.

Can washington handle light rail taking up row? I know a streetcar has been discussed for it

I mentioned light rail because

1. It would connect the post office site to the other lines.

2. It would service the neighbors to the west.

3. The commuter rail plans terminated before downtown. I would rather they code directly to the post office site, but if they don't then the light rail would just be a shower option, but an option nevertheless.

[cloud713]

The commuter rail plans terminated before downtown. I would rather they code directly to the post office site, but if they don't then the light rail would just be a shower option, but an option nevertheless.

Ah, the plans I've seen (super neighborhood 22s 2010 PDF) has commuter rail trenched from i10 going east (and of course going west to the suburbs) along the tracks parallel with washington, into the post office site (or the hardy yards site, I forget, but it definitely came all the way into the core).. Not ending before getting into the core.

[august948]

For connectivity they could eventually build a ight rail line spurring off the red line, through the new station, and on down Washington.  Or, very easily, they can include the new station in the downtown trolly route so you could hop on that and get to the light rail.  I'd also guess that it would be a major draw for taxis.

[HoustonIsHome]

Ah, the plans I've seen (super neighborhood 22s 2010 PDF) has commuter rail trenched from i10 going east (and of course going west to the suburbs) along the tracks parallel with washington, into the post office site (or the hardy yards site, I forget, but it definitely came all the way into the core).. Not ending before getting into the core.

That sounds much better than what I saw.

Must have seen old plans.

But that just means this makes this site even more attractive.

High speed rail tracks

Commuter rail

Amtrak rail

Buses.

The only thing hardy has on this is that it already on the light rail

[cloud713]

I don't see the big issue. This thing is IN downtown

What really grinds my gears is that you guys keep refering to THE rail line this and the rail line that.

Common people Houston is growing past the red line. Why can't the post office station be connected by light rail?

Yes it's in downtown, but it's on the other side of the bayou, and half a mile from the nearest light rail station..

Not sure who keeps referring to the red line as THE rail line, but it's undoubtably the backbone of our light rail system (at least until the university line [and uptown line] is built.. And even then the red line may still have the highest ridership of all the lines)..

Of course Houston is growing past the red line, but it would make things a lot easier if the high speed rail connected directly into our rail plan.. And right now the future metro rail plans don't include anything within half a mile of the post office site (yes including the green/purple line extension west which will likely go down memorial).. The closest thing we may have serving mass transit to the post office site is a streetcar line down Washington/franklin into downtown which could connect the post office site to the light rail system I suppose.. It would just drop passengers off a few blocks away from the nearest LRT station.

[cloud713]

That sounds much better than what I saw.

Must have seen old plans.

But that just means this makes this site even more attractive.

High speed rail tracks

Commuter rail

Amtrak rail

Buses.

The only thing hardy has on this is that it already on the light rail

The commuter rail actually was routed north to the hardy yards site in the sn22 plan (and Amtrak could just as easily split off at the fork and run into the hardy yards site too). The only advantage I see for the post office site is it would be easier for cabs and busses to access that site vs the hardy yards.

[IronTiger]

Post office seems like a good idea.

1. Somewhere I read the post office was supposed to be a train station in the first place.

2. The main railroad is right there, and it could be moved slightly to allow for HSR.

3. The 290 corridor plan left room for HSR right of way, which is directly connected to this line.

4. As for not being on the light rail line, this can always be a solution.

[cloud713]

Haha I thought about underground tunnels with people movers but one half a mile long? I wonder what the longest moving sidewalk in the world is..

[Houston19514]

Haha I thought about underground tunnels with people movers but one half a mile long? I wonder what the longest moving sidewalk in the world is..

It is well under 1/2 mile to the UHD station.

[ig2ba]

The new green/purple lines under construction are already extending west through downtown almost to the bayou, wouldn't take much more to link them to this site.

 

I'm not sure why you think it would be easy though. If they split from the main line at Bagby, they'd have to do something other than overhead electric lines or knock down that part of Bayou Place. It wouldn't go down Smith either since that is the most important southbound street in downtown, or really the most important one within miles. It starts as a 2-lane exit from I-10 and is the southern terminus of the I-45 HOV lane; it ends at Spur 527 to feed onto 59.

 

A skywalk, tunnel, or even people mover from the post office to UHD would be much more practical and much less expensive. What a coincidence that those are both the same thing.

[ig2ba]

Haha I thought about underground tunnels with people movers but one half a mile long? I wonder what the longest moving sidewalk in the world is..

 

Looks like a quarter or third of a mile to me. If it would substantially increase ridership, it could be worth it, and would be cheaper than building an extra third of a mile of rail. Maybe cheaper than a tunnel at that location next to the bayou, since the tunnel would have to be sealed very well against flooding from both bayous.

[cloud713]

It is well under 1/2 mile to the UHD station.

Alright well I was using the scale on google maps and it was around 2,000 feet from the middle of the post office to the middle of UHD.. That's linear distance, not counting the distance you'll have to walk out of the way going down Franklin and then up main since there is no direct pathway connecting the post office and downtown.

I guess a skybridge linking the two could be neat, and provide some awesome views of the skyline..

[Naviguessor]

The Post Office site doesn't have direct (light) rail access, that's true.  But, UHD is just a couple blocks and I think could be fairly easily linked via a climate controlled skywalk (with moving sidwalks).  The fact that the Post Office Site is within the downtown boundries gives all of the advantages of location and access, not to mention a beautiful gateway.   

I think I will just quote myself on this one.  

[mollusk]

Getting the Green or Purple line up that way wouldn't be that weird - just turn due north up the west side of the Aquarium site, then west once past the Public Works building, with some sort of people mover under 45.  One line could go north on Houston Avenue, North Main, and then, say, 20th (as the streetcar once did), and the other can head out Washington, and both can eventually hook up with the NW Transit Center.

[HoustonIsHome]

When I did it I got less than 800 feet from UHD to the post office straight line over Travis from above Washington avenue area.

Nothing close to 1/2 a mile.

There is only a parking lot separating uhd and the post office.

About 10 years ago UHD was liking into putting a building on that lot. A sky bridge between that building and UHD over Travis and Milam would put you just across the spur from the post office

[cloud713]

Maybe 800 feet from closest edges of the two buildings, so yes, that would be the length of a covered walkway..

but the rail station will most likely not be on the extreme east side of the post office property, and the light rail station is on the far side of UHD.. That, factored on with walking to the southeast corner of the post office site to cross Louisiana/Washington, and then the three flights of stairs at the end of the bayou trail to get back up to street level, all is probably around half a mile.

The point is that's too damn far to make people walk in miserable weather, potentially carrying numerous suitcases, ect.. Just to transfer from one mode of transit to another...

[IronTiger]

Somerset Collection (a mall in Michigan) has a covered, climate-controlled skywalk (with People Movers) that's 800 feet. Besides, if you need a Houston example, the MD Anderson Cancer Center has a massive collection of skywalks and little shuttles that take people around those skywalks. One skywalk is 1400 feet.

[cloud713]

alright fine.. skywalk it is. (now that you mention it, i do recall that ridiculously long skywalk with the right turn in the medical district) but it better be one swanky ass skywalk. with a neat support/bracing in the grassy section between Louisiana and Milam.. heh. a skybridge would definitely provide excellent views of the skyline.. so i guess thats somewhat welcoming for downtown. just odd that the second building they go into is a satellite campus of a local university.. 

the only problem i see is getting permission from union pacific or whoever owns that railroad ROW that a skybridge would have to come over.. i guess if the new high speed rail company is able to buy out rights to the line or something they would be willing the let it be built since connecting the station to local mass transit is good for the HSR company.

Edited January 18, 2014 by cloud713

[IronTiger]

just odd that the second building they go into is a satellite campus of a local university..

UH-D isn't a branch campus, it's another university in the system.

Besides, if it's really that much of an issue, then UH-D can move and change its name (it almost did change its name a few years back). UH-D didn't build the original building (the M & M Building, apparently)

Edited January 18, 2014 by IronTiger

[cloud713]

Ah cool.. Not really an issue, just a little strange having students with books and laptops intermingling with travelers and luggage.

[Purpledevil]

I did not know UH-Downtown was a separate university from the main campus. I always thought it was tied in to the UH system. Looks like I too learned something new from this conversation. Has this always been the case?

You can confirm it, IronTiger. UH-Downtown was indeed the M&M Building in its prior life (and still is to us older folks).

[Houston19514]

I did not know UH-Downtown was a separate university from the main campus. I always thought it was tied in to the UH system. Looks like I too learned something new from this conversation. Has this always been the case?

 

 

It is actually both.  It is indeed tied into the UH system.  It is also a separate university from the main campus.  Just as UT-San Antonio is part of the UT system but is a separate university from UT-Austin.

[JLWM8609]

I did not know UH-Downtown was a separate university from the main campus. I always thought it was tied in to the UH system. Looks like I too learned something new from this conversation. Has this always been the case?

You can confirm it, IronTiger. UH-Downtown was indeed the M&M Building in its prior life (and still is to us older folks).

 

UHD's origins go back further. South Texas Junior College (STJC) was founded in 1923 as part of the South Texas School of Law and Commerce, which is now known as the South Texas School of Law.  Classes were originally held at the Downtown YMCA and moved to the M&M Building in 1967. In 1974, UH acquired STJC's assets, and the school became UHD.

[JamesL]

It's less than a quarter mile from the likely end of the platforms to the UHD Red Line station.

 

There's a lot to be said for being within walking distance of part of Downtown versus walking distance to none of Downtown. 

 

This point will be moot whenever Cypress starts developing the Hardy Yards site. There won't be enough land left for a station.

[ig2ba]

alright fine.. skywalk it is. (now that you mention it, i do recall that ridiculously long skywalk with the right turn in the medical district) but it better be one swanky ass skywalk. with a neat support/bracing in the grassy section between Louisiana and Milam.. heh. a skybridge would definitely provide excellent views of the skyline.. so i guess thats somewhat welcoming for downtown. just odd that the second building they go into is a satellite campus of a local university.. 

the only problem i see is getting permission from union pacific or whoever owns that railroad ROW that a skybridge would have to come over.. i guess if the new high speed rail company is able to buy out rights to the line or something they would be willing the let it be built since connecting the station to local mass transit is good for the HSR company.

 

If there's something that Houston has better experience with compared to other cities, it's skywalks (and tunnels too). Subways, merging multiple modes of transportation, raised bike lanes? No. Skywalks? Yes. There's probably close to 10 miles of skywalks and tunnels over/under roads used by cars throughout Houston.

 

I would think that as long as the clearance is kept high enough for slightly oversized freight, the railroad wouldn't have much of a say. If the clearance is higher than between the rail and this skywalk than it is where the rail intersects with I-45 or under UHD, why would the railroad need any more space than that? Do they really own all the air above the rail? I don't know exactly how this would work, but maybe somebody here does.

[Houston19514]

I would think that as long as the clearance is kept high enough for slightly oversized freight, the railroad wouldn't have much of a say. If the clearance is higher than between the rail and this skywalk than it is where the rail intersects with I-45 or under UHD, why would the railroad need any more space than that? Do they really own all the air above the rail? I don't know exactly how this would work, but maybe somebody here does.

 

Property owners own the air rights above their property.  You can't just build a skywalk over someone's private property without their permission, even if you think they have no use for that space.  Even if your thoughts are eminently reasonable.

 

[Purpledevil]

If that's true, I'm going to own Channel 13. Ol' Don Armstrong and his eyewitness news chopper are in "my airspace" nearly every day.

Could you tell me how far this ownership of air extends? I've seen the ISS over head on a couple of occasions at the house. I may decide to send them an invoice, as well...

Lol, there have got to be some limitations on that. Honestly, I've never heard of owning the airspace over your property. This is a new one to me.

A skywalk over the railroad would be interesting, for sure. I'd hate to see what that skywalk looks like in a year with diesel locomotives running underneath it all day and night. Would not want to be the one keeping it clean...