Texas Central Project

[IronTiger]

And Japanese as in JR railways, the company behind the Dallas to Houston high speed rail line.. I doubt they've even heard of college station, but maybe Eckles(?) is pushing for a CS stop.. Since I go to Baylor, it pains me to see college station in the discussions to get a stop without any consideration given to Waco.. I really hope there are no stops between Houston and Dallas...

I'm not, by the way, being a fanboy, I'm addressing what is a huge issue in planning HSR. It's all politics, of course...

[august948]

To be fair, a stop in greenspoint would probably be helpful for the population that lives there. And there are many trains all around the world that stop in bad areas. If you don't get off or get on there, what's the issue? BART goes through bad parts of Oakland, many trains in New York go through brownsville, queensbridge, the bronx, etc. I've never felt scared going through the areas.

 

To be fair, Is the population in the Greenspoint area well off enough to afford HSR tickets to Dallas?  I doubt their going to be that cheap.  Not sure how it would be helpful to them, other than providing additional victims to roaming thugs.

 

Apples to oranges, again.  This is HSR not light rail.

 

Not that it matters one whit unless the plans change.  I don't think anyone with control on this project is contemplating a IAH/Greenspoint stop.

 

[jt16]

I'm 90% sure that ROW was marked as so for the Hempstead commuter rail line they've been talking about for ages..

And Japanese as in JR railways, the company behind the Dallas to Houston high speed rail line.. I doubt they've even heard of college station, but maybe Eckles(?) is pushing for a CS stop.. Since I go to Baylor, it pains me to see college station in the discussions to get a stop without any consideration given to Waco.. I really hope there are no stops between Houston and Dallas...

Seasonal would make sense, but A&M enrollment dwarfs that of Baylor. That's all were talking about. It has nothing to do with either the cities of college station or Waco.

[cloud713]

Tis true.. But Waco is a larger city... It's a toss up. Neither city should be considered as a stop for a Dallas to Houston route IMO..

[IronTiger]

Tis true.. But Waco is a larger city... It's a toss up. Neither city should be considered as a stop for a Dallas to Houston route IMO..

Not really anymore. Due to the rather moribund status of Waco over the last few decades, it hasn't quite as fast as other Texas cities. Current metropolitan statistics put both as having more or less equal people (yes, both include some more rural communities, but the urban areas have people too).

I really don't think that a direct Dallas-Houston route is the best plan. Sure, they're both major cities, but part of the reason people are thinking in that mindset is that's the way Interstate highways go.

[Slick Vik]

I'm not, by the way, being a fanboy, I'm addressing what is a huge issue in planning HSR. It's all politics, of course...

 

Japanese are paying, rail will go where they want it to go.

[Slick Vik]

To be fair, Is the population in the Greenspoint area well off enough to afford HSR tickets to Dallas?  I doubt their going to be that cheap.  Not sure how it would be helpful to them, other than providing additional victims to roaming thugs.

 

Apples to oranges, again.  This is HSR not light rail.

 

Not that it matters one whit unless the plans change.  I don't think anyone with control on this project is contemplating a IAH/Greenspoint stop.

 

 

If there was an IAH stop I'm sure there would be a people mover of some sort to IAH. Roaming thugs? It's not exactly Caracas or Kabul or Baghdad.

[ricco67]

To be fair, Is the population in the Greenspoint area well off enough to afford HSR tickets to Dallas? I doubt their going to be that cheap. Not sure how it would be helpful to them, other than providing additional victims to roaming thugs.

what is your point?

not saying a greenspoint makes sense, but do you honestly believe other people outside of that stop might go use it?

I don't live near IAH, but I fly out of the occasionally.

[august948]

what is your point?

not saying a greenspoint makes sense, but do you honestly believe other people outside of that stop might go use it?

I don't live near IAH, but I fly out of the occasionally.

 

That was in response to another post that implied that a Greenspoint HSR stop would be of great benefit to the local residents.  A light rail connection might be a benefit for them, but I doubt many living in Greenspoint are going to pony up for a ticket to Dallas on a regular basis.

 

As you said, a Greenspoint stop probably doesn't make much sense and probably wouldn't ever be built,but, if it were, it would certainly be used by people outside the Greenspoint area who don't want to drive all the way to downtown.  In fact, I'd say it would be used mostly be people who don't live in Greenspoint, though it might be used by some who work in the area.

 

[IronTiger]

Japanese are paying, rail will go where they want it to go.

Well, they're teaming  up with a U.S. company so it's not strictly their decision alone. The state should have a hand in deciding where it goes if this company sees a cent of taxpayer money. If not, then they're total fools and it's TTC all over again. (and I would be opposed to it universally)

[Sky-guy]

How much does a ride on of these trains cost?

[Slick Vik]

Well, they're teaming up with a U.S. company so it's not strictly their decision alone. The state should have a hand in deciding where it goes if this company sees a cent of taxpayer money. If not, then they're total fools and it's TTC all over again. (and I would be opposed to it universally)

The us company is just a face for their money. It won't have any taxpayer money. They aren't fools they're light years ahead of us in many ways and the deal is if they pay they keep profits too. College station and Fort Worth are begging for stations that won't come.

[IronTiger]

The us company is just a face for their money. It won't have any taxpayer money. They aren't fools they're light years ahead of us in many ways and the deal is if they pay they keep profits too. College station and Fort Worth are begging for stations that won't come.

I can't see them making any money, to be honest, especially after factoring in land costs and whatnot. There's no scenario I can see where they can work and make a profit entirely as a private enterprise.

[august948]

I can't see them making any money, to be honest, especially after factoring in land costs and whatnot. There's no scenario I can see where they can work and make a profit entirely as a private enterprise.

 

JR may be counting on making money by selling equipment and expertise.  If I were them, I'd be looknig for private backing from someone else to do the building and operating.  That may in fact be what's happening with their Texas partner, Texas Central Railway.

 

[Slick Vik]

I can't see them making any money, to be honest, especially after factoring in land costs and whatnot. There's no scenario I can see where they can work and make a profit entirely as a private enterprise.

 

It doesn't sound like land right of way will be much of a problem.

[Slick Vik]

I can't see them making any money, to be honest, especially after factoring in land costs and whatnot. There's no scenario I can see where they can work and make a profit entirely as a private enterprise.

 

You honestly think they would invest billions without expecting to make money?

[ArchFan]

I haven't seen any reports of how much capital (if any) JR would invest in this project.   Some people here seem to assume they are bankrolling a big part of it, which is a big assumption.   If they participated in the project (in whatever way), I expect they could provide a lot of value from their experience designing, developing, and operating HS rail in Japan.  If they did that, I could see them also investing capital in some fashion.  As much as I'd like to see them pay for it all, it just seems unlikely to me when there are supposedly other routes in the US that are touted as having higher ridership potential.  

 

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade.  But ... I'd rather be pleasantly surprised (if it were true) than disappointed (if it were not).

[IronTiger]

You honestly think they would invest billions without expecting to make money?

Not "not expecting to make money", "wrongfully assuming they could make money". You know the reason why a bunch of the first-generation .coms from the late 1990s failed, right?

Edited January 28, 2014 by IronTiger

[Slick Vik]

I haven't seen any reports of how much capital (if any) JR would invest in this project. Some people here seem to assume they are bankrolling a big part of it, which is a big assumption. If they participated in the project (in whatever way), I expect they could provide a lot of value from their experience designing, developing, and operating HS rail in Japan. If they did that, I could see them also investing capital in some fashion. As much as I'd like to see them pay for it all, it just seems unlikely to me when there are supposedly other routes in the US that are touted as having higher ridership potential.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. But ... I'd rather be pleasantly surprised (if it were true) than disappointed (if it were not).

I've read a minimum of $10 billion and also they studied corridors all over the country and decided this one had the best ridership potential for the value.

[august948]

I've read a minimum of $10 billion and also they studied corridors all over the country and decided this one had the best ridership potential for the value.

 

$10 billion out of an estimated how much for the whole project?

 

[august948]

Don't know yet if this is related or not, but they are already exploring an I35 route from San Antonio to Oklahoma City.

 

 

WACO - A high speed rail from Oklahoma City to San Antonio is in the works, and a few proposed routes shows the rail running through Central Texas.

A public meeting was held on Monday night to give opinion and input on the rail. A federally funded study was conducted, and it showed that I-35 is becoming a congested highway and will more than likely continue to be congested with Texas' growing population.

 

 

 

http://www.kxxv.com/story/24557395/txdot-to-hold-public-meeting-for-texas-oklahoma-passenger-rail-study

[Sky-guy]

Don't know yet if this is related or not, but they are already exploring an I35 route from San Antonio to Oklahoma City.

http://www.kxxv.com/story/24557395/txdot-to-hold-public-meeting-for-texas-oklahoma-passenger-rail-study

I hope this doesn't mean that the Houston/Dallas line won't happen. Edited January 29, 2014 by Sky-guy

[august948]

I hope this doesn't mean that the Houston/Dallas line won't happen.

 

I think this is something separate, but I'm not sure if it's being pushed by the same folks as the Houston-Dallas line or not.  First time i've heard anyone mention Oklahoma City, too.

 

Edited January 29, 2014 by august948

[Slick Vik]

I think this is something separate, but I'm not sure if it's being pushed by the same folks as the Houston-Dallas line or not. First time i've heard anyone mention Oklahoma City, too.

There's also a San Antonio to Monterrey line

[jt16]

I think this is something separate, but I'm not sure if it's being pushed by the same folks as the Houston-Dallas line or not. First time i've heard anyone mention Oklahoma City, too.

I get a memorial area newspaper and the article today mentioned they are actually a step closer to funding. They are close to agreement with federal railroad commission. Not sure what that means but the article implied construction could start in as early as two years

[Marcus Allen]

Are the numbers the underlying factor preventing a high speed transit system connecting most major TX cities? I have viewed several ideal maps connecting most major TX cities ( sorry El Paso, Lubbock etc.) and wonder why we don't take all that oil $$$ and build a world renowned transit system! I mean, to connect HTown, SA, Austin, and Big D, with College Station, Waco Temple and Killeen in the mix; I am not sure why such an endeavor isn't taking place. OK, HAIFers, bring it on. I am ready for recriminations!

[livincinco]

Are the numbers the underlying factor preventing a high speed transit system connecting most major TX cities? I have viewed several ideal maps connecting most major TX cities ( sorry El Paso, Lubbock etc.) and wonder why we don't take all that oil $$$ and build a world renowned transit system! I mean, to connect HTown, SA, Austin, and Big D, with College Station, Waco Temple and Killeen in the mix; I am not sure why such an endeavor isn't taking place. OK, HAIFers, bring it on. I am ready for recriminations!

Are you familiar with the Texas Central Railway proposal to build a HSR link between Dallas and Houston? That seems like an awfully big step towards building what you're talking about.

[cloud713]

I would imagine/hope he is familiar with it.. Also txdot is doing studies on connecting San Antonio to Dallas down 35 and possibly even going on to okc, so really the last segment needed is that Houston-San Antonio line.. Forget connecting cities like college station, Killeen, and even waco (sorry Baylor).. All those stops slow down travel time, and I hope they don't route the Houston Dallas line down highway 6 through CS.

[arche_757]

I'm afraid San Antonio-Austin-Temple/Belton-Waco-Fort Worth-Arlington-Dallas will probably be the first line built.  Too many large cities, compare that to the... Dallas-Houston line that may stop in Huntsville and probably The Woodlands (of course in theory one could continue that link north to either Tulsa-KC or OKC-Denver?)

 

There are 3 primary reasons (I know of, though I am no expert on transit):

1) Money.  A system with a 100+mph train from Houston to Dallas would cost billions of dollars

2) Southwest/Airlines.  They fought it in the past, and while a train system wouldn't cause them that much of a problem they would still likely fight it.

3) Land.  High Speed rail would likely need new/non-frieght rail tracks, and the right of way (no grade level crossings for cars/trucks) would be pretty high.  We have a lot of available land, but which ranchers would want to fork over the 500' closest to I-45 (for example) to a railway?  It would also mean considerable costs spent on just re-building driveways and the like for land owners.

[cloud713]

I'm afraid San Antonio-Austin-Temple/Belton-Waco-Fort Worth-Arlington-Dallas will probably be the first line built.  Too many large cities, compare that to the... Dallas-Houston line that may stop in Huntsville and probably The Woodlands (of course in theory one could continue that link north to either Tulsa-KC or OKC-Denver?)

 

There are 3 primary reasons (I know of, though I am no expert on transit):

1) Money.  A system with a 100+mph train from Houston to Dallas would cost billions of dollars

2) Southwest/Airlines.  They fought it in the past, and while a train system wouldn't cause them that much of a problem they would still likely fight it.

3) Land.  High Speed rail would likely need new/non-frieght rail tracks, and the right of way (no grade level crossings for cars/trucks) would be pretty high.  We have a lot of available land, but which ranchers would want to fork over the 500' closest to I-45 (for example) to a railway?  It would also mean considerable costs spent on just re-building driveways and the like for land owners.

those three reasons are exactly why i think the Houston-Dallas line will be built first. 

the money would be private backing, not federal funding like the i35 line. weve seen how long it takes to build federal high speed rail (Californias line isnt supposed to open until like 2029). you dont think a train from Dallas to San Antonio would cost at least as much? the distance to SA is even further than to Houston..

i believe i read somewhere that southwest said they wouldnt fight rail this time.

how many people live along i45? now how many people live along i35? exactly.. you really think the millions of people along 35 are going to put up less of a fight than a group of farmers along 45? there are way more roads and driveways along 35 that would need grade separate crossings (which cost money as you pointed out) than along i45..

Edited February 12, 2014 by cloud713

[livincinco]

I would think that land acquisition costs would be considerably higher for a San Antonio - Dallas route than Houston-Dallas for exactly the same reasons you listed. I think that you'd also have to double track each direction on that route due to the number of stops while you might be able to single track Dallas - Houston.

[Naviguessor]

Cloud - SWA really is on record saying that, in view that neither of their Airports (HOU, LUV) are the airports that have been discussed?  That'd be an interesting endoresment.

[cloud713]

very true, i edited the post because some of that were my words, not southwests. i was just trying to put two and two together but your right, that doesnt make sense. idk, i read somewhere that they said they would support the plans now. either way the other two points still stand as to why the Hou-Dal line would be built first. why wouldnt Southwest also fight a Dallas-San Antonio line if they were so opposed to losing a couple routes?

somewhere in here it talks about Southwest supporting HSR..

"Among the advantages Southwest sees is that high-speed rail will allow them to get out of the.. "

 

http://www.apta.com/resources/reportsandpublications/Documents/HSR-Defense.pdf

Edited February 12, 2014 by cloud713

[Slick Vik]

The first line built will be from Monterrey to the border. Mexico has already started construction. Then the border to San Antonio. That line will most likely be done first. The rest is up in the air to OKC because of funding, or lack thereof. Houston-Dallas will probably be done around 2021 hopefully since it has private funding.

[Naviguessor]

Monterrey - SA - Houston would be a great line too.  Lots of commerce there. 

[livincinco]

The first line built will be from Monterrey to the border. Mexico has already started construction. Then the border to San Antonio. That line will most likely be done first. The rest is up in the air to OKC because of funding, or lack thereof. Houston-Dallas will probably be done around 2021 hopefully since it has private funding.

My understanding is that the Mexican government has begun securing ROW but is not going to begin construction until it receives confirmation from the US government that the line will be continued on this side of the border. Funding is just now being secured to start a feasibility study on the US side, so the timeline is very open at the moment.

 

http://sacurrent.com/news/will-the-sa-monterrey-high-speed-rail-line-really-happen-1.1620445

I think Dallas-Houston is probably further along at this point.

Edited February 12, 2014 by livincinco

[Slick Vik]

My understanding is that the Mexican government has begun securing ROW but is not going to begin construction until it receives confirmation from the US government that the line will be continued on this side of the border. Funding is just now being secured to start a feasibility study on the US side, so the timeline is very open at the moment.

 

http://sacurrent.com/news/will-the-sa-monterrey-high-speed-rail-line-really-happen-1.1620445

I think Dallas-Houston is probably further along at this point.

 

Actually the ROW is complete.

 

Jorge Domene Zambrano, chief of staff for Nuevo León Gov. Rodrigo Medina de la Cruz, said state officials already had secured the all-important right-of-ways and permits. Ongoing reforms in Mexico will open what had been a monopolized rail industry to private investment, he said. The Mexican cost is estimated at $1.5 billion.

 

“The Mexican side is ready in terms of the permit,” Zambrano said. “We need to start looking for the money, which is very important to make it happen, and we are working for 2015 to be ready to start receiving the first amount of money to start the project.”

 

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/us-world/border-mexico/article/Fast-train-to-Monterrey-on-the-horizon-5150132.php

[Slick Vik]

My understanding is that the Mexican government has begun securing ROW but is not going to begin construction until it receives confirmation from the US government that the line will be continued on this side of the border. Funding is just now being secured to start a feasibility study on the US side, so the timeline is very open at the moment.

 

http://sacurrent.com/news/will-the-sa-monterrey-high-speed-rail-line-really-happen-1.1620445

I think Dallas-Houston is probably further along at this point.

 

To add to this. I don't see any part of the Houston-Dallas rail line being done by 2018.

 

"As you know, these projects are long term projects and are not built in a year — so we are looking to finish this — if everything goes okay — 2018."

[arche_757]

My point was that SA-DFW would be the one polititians would back because it serves more than just 2 main cities (even if those are the 2 largest/most economically power metros in the state).

 

Some of you did point out that land aquasition costs would be high for SA-DFW, and that's honestly something I didn't even think about (oddly enough).  Thinking of all the municipalities that would/could fight that or want something in return would probably make that route harder to sell.

 

I do hope that Houston to Dallas becomes a reality via high speed rail, but I'll wager we will have a much more advanced transit system in Houston before we ever have HSR in Texas.

 

Why would the route from Mexico divert to Houston?  It would run north (approximately) to SA-Austin-midcities-Dallas-KC-Chicago (at full build out).  The best we could do would be to have a route from here to Dallas-OKC-Denver-Calgary (thinking WAY long term here).

[cloud713]

the very last paragraph in the article cinco quoted said this..

"Because of the infancy of the project’s planning, a clear timetable was not made available, however, Gonzalez estimated that if construction on the Mexico side began in 2016, it could be completed within three years."

so 2019 at the earliest. but thats just the mexican side.. not the american side. the Houston Dallas rail line is planned to open around 2021. either way its great Texas is finally looking like it will get high speed rail service..

[Naviguessor]

Regarding the Hou-SA-MX route:  I wasn't saying that it should go to Houston instead of north toward OKC, but in addition.  For Houston, after the Dallas connection, the SA connection makes sense, which may join the SA-MX line anyway.  There would be a lot of Traffic between Monterrey and Houston.  The Dog-leg of Hou-SA-Monterrey is pretty obtuse. 

[cloud713]

heres another quote about Southwest supporting HSR this time.. is it true the regional routes are money losing now? i know regional was how Southwest got started..

"Southwest Airlines, for one, has made it clear that there are huge advantages for them to have high-speed rail built in California. Among the advantages Southwest sees is that high-speed rail will allow them to get out of the money-losing, overly congested regional air service business."

[livincinco]

To add to this. I don't see any part of the Houston-Dallas rail line being done by 2018.

 

"As you know, these projects are long term projects and are not built in a year — so we are looking to finish this — if everything goes okay — 2018."

 

If that quote is in relation to the full Monterrey-SA line, then I would say that it is, to put it nicely, an extremely optimistic estimate.

[Slick Vik]

If that quote is in relation to the full Monterrey-SA line, then I would say that it is, to put it nicely, an extremely optimistic estimate.

 

No, just the mexican portion.

[mfastx]

The highway and air lobby that overwhelms Texas is going to make it very hard for something like this to happen. 

 

It's a fantastic idea and would easily capture the majority of the air/rail market share if done right and not half-assed.  It would be a very large but great investment. 

 

I hope something like this happens in my lifetime, but I am not holding my breath.

[cloud713]

The highway and air lobby that overwhelms Texas is going to make it very hard for something like this to happen. 

 

It's a fantastic idea and would easily capture the majority of the air/rail market share if done right and not half-assed.  It would be a very large but great investment. 

 

I hope something like this happens in my lifetime, but I am not holding my breath.

according to a few places Southwest would support high speed rail this time. i even just read that at the time of the last push for high speed rail in the early 90s that southwest was confined to only IN state flights.. no where outside of Texas. so of course they opposed the hell out of the T bone or w/e plan it was they were proposing to connect all the major metros in the state. it would of put them out of business. thats not the case anymore and supposably southwest wouldnt mind getting out of the regional game..

[livincinco]

Update on HOU-DAL from Houston Tomorrow

http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/hou-dal-hsr-may-break-ground-in-two-years/

Full article - http://impactnews.com/houston-metro/the-woodlands/houston-to-dallas-high-speed-rail-could-break-ground-in-two-/

Edited February 13, 2014 by livincinco

[Sky-guy]

WOW! That's amazing. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't happen, I'm still excited for this.

[cloud713]

I wouldn't be opposed to the red line, but the green line is just dumb..

[mfastx]

according to a few places Southwest would support high speed rail this time. i even just read that at the time of the last push for high speed rail in the early 90s that southwest was confined to only IN state flights.. no where outside of Texas. so of course they opposed the hell out of the T bone or w/e plan it was they were proposing to connect all the major metros in the state. it would of put them out of business. thats not the case anymore and supposably southwest wouldnt mind getting out of the regional game..

 

That's encouraging.. but realistically any HSR line between Houston-Dallas or Houston-wherever is going to eat a lot of market share from airlines, who will lose a lot of money on those routes.