Texas Central Project

[j_cuevas713]

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/Cannady-High-speed-rail-station-belongs-in-12737997.php?utm_source=chron&utm_medium=linkmodule&utm_campaign=btfpm

[BeerNut]

Now SNCF America has an opinion on what TCR should do.

 

[EllenOlenska]

I heard Gail Delaughter on the NPR Texas Standard show yesterday and she kept repeating that the train would stop in College Station. I kept thinking, isn't the train actually going to stop in Shiro? 

[cspwal]

It's going to stop near College station and have a bus to A&M iirc

[ADCS]

52 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

Now SNCF America has an opinion on what TCR should do.

 

 

Now that's pretty funny, given that was the Texas TGV concept from 30 years ago. Does the loss of Waco and Temple as potential stops really matter all that much?

[cspwal]

It does if you went to Baylor

[ADCS]

2 minutes ago, cspwal said:

It does if you went to Baylor

 

Given that it's Drayton McLane spearheading the whole thing, I'm sure Baylor interests are mollified.

[samagon]

1 hour ago, BeerNut said:

Now SNCF America has an opinion on what TCR should do.

 

I prefer the triangle. If I want to go to San Antonio from Houston I want to go from Houston to San Antonio, I don't want to go to College Station, then Temple, then Georgetown then Austin, then San Antonio. I'd be better off driving if that were the route.

 

Why does SNCF want to have a say anyway? Do they have a proposal on the table, or are they just poopooing the current plan?

[cspwal]

I suspect that they worry their chances of building their Texas T-bone proposal from 92 is less likely if TCR builds their Dallas-Houston line.

Of course, they have about a 0.5% chance now so...

[BeerNut]

1 hour ago, cspwal said:

I suspect that they worry their chances of building their Texas T-bone proposal from 92 is less likely if TCR builds their Dallas-Houston line.

Of course, they have about a 0.5% chance now so...

Maybe the NIMBYs gave them some money to throw some shade...

[ADCS]

11 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

Maybe the NIMBYs gave them some money to throw some shade...

 

Their spokesperson is from a state lobbying firm. Bet it's just Texans Against High-Speed Rail using their resources to gin up whatever opposition they can find.

[102IAHexpress]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:07 PM, Houston19514 said:

^ I don't know the answer to the question.  But I'm pretty sure no one really cares.  As already mentioned, Amtrak is an irrelevancy 

 

Wrong again. Apparently Texas Central cares. Amtrak and Texas Central partner to provide ticketing and bus shuttle service:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas/2018/05/04/amtrak-jumps-board-texas-bullet-train-ticketing-shuttle-partnership

[Houston19514]

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas/2018/05/04/amtrak-jumps-board-texas-bullet-train-ticketing-shuttle-partnership

 

Funny thing.  Since the announcement of the Texas Central station site at the Northwest Mall site, we've been told how it was vastly inferior to the Dallas station site in part because it wasn't at the same station as Amtrak.  It turns out that was a lie.  Passengers in both Houston and Dallas will connect from TCR to Amtrak via bus connectors. (And the Dallas stations's connectivity to DART had been oversold as well.)

Edited May 5, 2018 by Houston19514

[j_cuevas713]

This is great news for Amtrak. I have always admired how the East Coast takes full advantage of their Amtrak station. 

[mollusk]

Comparing the two Amtrak stations and their connectivity is comparing apples to rutabagas.

 

Dallas Union Station is less than a mile from the TCR site, is on the edge of downtown (right across the tracks from Reunion), and also serves DART and the Trinity River Express.

 

Houston's Amtrak station is about seven miles from the Northwest Mall site and is just grim.

 

 

On the other hand, there's no reason why Amtrak couldn't relocate to the Northwest Mall site, or near it.

Edited May 9, 2018 by mollusk

[cspwal]

They could relocate to a better location along the UP line.  Looking at the Sunset limited route, there's a couple of empty lots between downtown and the turn it makes through memorial park

[samagon]

I went to the Amtrak station in Houston when there was some special steam locomotive traveling through town. 

 

To call that place grim is a kindness.

 

that locomotive was awesome though, the smell of grease and steam and oil almost overpowered the smell of urine.

[mkultra25]

3 hours ago, samagon said:

I went to the Amtrak station in Houston when there was some special steam locomotive traveling through town. 

 

To call that place grim is a kindness.

 

that locomotive was awesome though, the smell of grease and steam and oil almost overpowered the smell of urine.

 

That's the last time I was there as well. It's even more depressing to see some of the railroad history stuff they have on display inside the station - it just emphasizes how far passenger rail has fallen since its heyday. Passenger rail was already on life support in the late 1960s, and the railroads were no doubt glad to be relieved of the burden of having to continue to provide passenger service when the Nixon administration effectively nationalized passenger rail operations and consolidated all of the passenger rail lines under the newly-created entity of Amtrak in 1970. 

 

I can remember going to Union Station with my parents in the late 60s/early 70s. It was certainly a lot more impressive than the shabby, vestigial station that's left now, although I can't honestly say I'd rather have Amtrak operating out of there now instead of the ballpark. 

[tigereye]

On 5/9/2018 at 8:10 AM, mollusk said:

Comparing the two Amtrak stations and their connectivity is comparing apples to rutabagas.

 

Dallas Union Station is less than a mile from the TCR site, is on the edge of downtown (right across the tracks from Reunion), and also serves DART and the Trinity River Express.

 

Houston's Amtrak station is about seven miles from the Northwest Mall site and is just grim.

 

 

On the other hand, there's no reason why Amtrak couldn't relocate to the Northwest Mall site, or near it.

 

There’s plenty of space at Northwest Mall to do a lot of things. With the Texas Central + Amtrak partnership, why not relocate it to the NW Mall site? And while we are on the topic of outdated facilities, Greyhound is looking to replace the their bus terminal. Add in a relocated NW Transit Center P&R, extend the Post Oak BRT to NW Mall, and this could be our opportunity to create a multimodal regional ground transportation facility at the convergence of 3 major freeways centered between 3 major employment centers (Downtown, Uptown, Energy Corridor).

 

Metro has dreamed of it before at Burnett, the opportunity is there to make it a reality now. 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by tigereye

[cspwal]

My only problem with that is that it would require re-routing the (one) amtrak train slightly, as well as potentially having conflicts between the two tracks

[mfastx]

Even if the TCR station isn't in an optimal location, it makes too much sense for Amtrak to be moved there.  One thing that would have to happen is that a platform compatible with Amtrak must be constructed.  Amtrak's superliner cars which are used on the Sunset Limited can only be accessed via a low floor platform (15" above the rail).  Typically, HSR trains use high floor platforms (48" above the rail).  

 

Also, the platform would have to be built adjacent to the existing UP trackage.  Presumably, the HSR platforms will be elevated if the rendering is anything to go by, so you'd have platforms elevated and at ground level.  

 

Currently, the Sunset would have to do a short reverse move to access the station.  The Sunset already does a reverse move leaving Houston eastbound and reverse moves are fairly common on Amtrak, so this shouldn't be an issue. 

 

Ultimately, the benefit of having one station for both Amtrak and TCR would be to allow both passengers to access food options, rental car and parking which would be at the station.  Optimally, you'd have all the bus companies at the station too to make things even more efficient.  

 

All that being said, I don't see this happening. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by mfastx

[cspwal]

11 hours ago, mfastx said:

Even if the TCR station isn't in an optimal location, it makes too much sense for Amtrak to be moved there.  One thing that would have to happen is that a platform compatible with Amtrak must be constructed.  Amtrak's superliner cars which are used on the Sunset Limited can only be accessed via a low floor platform (15" above the rail).  Typically, HSR trains use high floor platforms (48" above the rail). 

 

Doing some quick research, the platform height for the Superliner cars can range from 8" - 21.7"; this is relatively standard in the US, though platform heights in the US vary from 8" - 48" and the Acela seems to have a platform height of 48" or so.

The Shinkansen train set only uses 49.2" platforms.

 

12 hours ago, mfastx said:

Also, the platform would have to be built adjacent to the existing UP trackage.  Presumably, the HSR platforms will be elevated if the rendering is anything to go by, so you'd have platforms elevated and at ground level.

 

You could also build a new elevated track, but an at grade platform does make more sense - which would give you a TCR departure floor and an Amtrak departure floor.

 

12 hours ago, mfastx said:

Currently, the Sunset would have to do a short reverse move to access the station.  The Sunset already does a reverse move leaving Houston eastbound and reverse moves are fairly common on Amtrak, so this shouldn't be an issue.

I've ridden the Sunset limited and I doubled checked the route - the train does do a reverse maneuver leaving San Antonio going east, but it just goes straight out of Houston towards New Orleans.  The train can do a reverse move though it takes more time than just gliding into the station.

 

12 hours ago, mfastx said:

Ultimately, the benefit of having one station for both Amtrak and TCR would be to allow both passengers to access food options, rental car and parking which would be at the station.  Optimally, you'd have all the bus companies at the station too to make things even more efficient. 

Agreed - having all the ground transport for the city in one place would be super convenient, except for the downside of the lack of transit coming into the site.  Bus routes and a light rail route would have to be routed to make this site a better hub of the city's transportation network.

[Sparrow]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:10 AM, mollusk said:

Comparing the two Amtrak stations and their connectivity is comparing apples to rutabagas.

 

Dallas Union Station is less than a mile from the TCR site, is on the edge of downtown (right across the tracks from Reunion), and also serves DART and the Trinity River Express.

 

Houston's Amtrak station is about seven miles from the Northwest Mall site and is just grim.

 

 

On the other hand, there's no reason why Amtrak couldn't relocate to the Northwest Mall site, or near it.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa y'all. Move Amtrak to the NW Mall site?? No. Y'all are missing the easy solution that is beneficial to many folks at the least possible cost.

 

Move the Amtrak station a few hundred yards east to the Post HTX site.

 

It'd be great for Post HTX because they'd charge Amtrak rent, they'd have more customers are their shops and restaurants, and they'd have a train station at their development so surely they could increase retail rents. 

 

It'd be great for Amtrak because, hey, they'd have bathrooms now... They also wouldn't have to spend very much to move the station--just make a new waiting area in Post HTX. If they own the land the current station is on perhaps they could even sell that. Let someone buy it to make a parking garage. 

 

The thing is, there already will be transit buses going from the new NW Mall high speed rail station to Downtown via the HOV lane. It's quick. It's easy. It's already a sunk cost--NW transit center/NW Mall HSR station to Downtown. So what if Amtrak customers have to hop on a bus for a 10 minute drive--if you're taking Amtrak already anyway, what's 10 more minutes? And of course they're bound to be the nice park-and-ride buses anyway.

 

Spend a little extra to make a pedestrian connection to the UHD light rail station. Put some moving sidewalks on it too. Maybe even get the Post HTX folks to chip in for the walkway that will surely be to their benefit. Suddenly Post HTX is a multimodal transit center--Amtrak, park-and-ride, light rail, and high speed rail connections all at one place. 

 

Perhaps the folks at Texas Central could even do a little PR magic and have a Post HTX High Speed Rail station (****that you happen to have to take a 10 minute bus ride first). Get enough interest after a while, if the economics make sense, just put in a people mover like AirTrain to the NW Mall station. 

[wilcal]

I mean.... is any effort really worth it at this point? 

 

Who the hell is going to be connecting from say New Orleans to Dallas? It'll take like 10 hours!

[cspwal]

1.5 h ride Dallas -> Houston

0.5 h connection

0.5 h layover

9.5 h Houston -> New Orleans

= 12 h

 

Driving takes 8 hours, a flight is 1 h 15 min

 

Amtrak really needs to step it up around here after the high speed train comes in

[BeerNut]

35 minutes ago, cspwal said:

1.5 h ride Dallas -> Houston

0.5 h connection

0.5 h layover

9.5 h Houston -> New Orleans

= 12 h

 

Driving takes 8 hours, a flight is 1 h 15 min

 

Amtrak really needs to step it up around here after the high speed train comes in

High speed train from Houston to New Orleans?

[cspwal]

A good idea, but a downside of the NW mall site is the hard work of getting a line from the west side of Houston to the east side of Houston is I-10 inside 610, so getting to NOLA from the NW mall site would run into all the problems that prevented a downtown station.  Of course, you might be able to have a bypass around Houston that would also allow a train from Dallas to NOLA that bypasses Houston

[Naviguessor]

Yes, please, Beer Nut. 

I've used Amtrak on numerous trips to NOLA.  It cheaper than Driving for one person, and no parking charges.   The return trip is relaxing and much easier to do with a hangover.  Sure a takes a couple hours longer.  What's the hurry?  It's, relaxing.  The seat is comfortable.  It's not crowded.  It can be fun, depending upon your company and the other riders and scenery interesting beautiful.  Sue beats most of I-101   Try it. 

 

But, I realize that HSR, on this route, is not likely, anytime soon. 

[mollusk]

13 minutes ago, cspwal said:

A good idea, but a downside of the NW mall site is the hard work of getting a line from the west side of Houston to the east side of Houston is I-10 inside 610, so getting to NOLA from the NW mall site would run into all the problems that prevented a downtown station.  Of course, you might be able to have a bypass around Houston that would also allow a train from Dallas to NOLA that bypasses Houston

 

Not so much.  Amtrak comes up the UP line that's parallel to the west loop, and then curves around to join the line that is parallel to 290.  

 

The direct Dallas - NOLA service that bypassed Houston was Texas & Pacific's Louisiana Eagle.

[wilcal]

24 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

Yes, please, Beer Nut. 

I've used Amtrak on numerous trips to NOLA.  It cheaper than Driving for one person, and no parking charges.   The return trip is relaxing and much easier to do with a hangover.  Sure a takes a couple hours longer.  What's the hurry?  It's, relaxing.  The seat is comfortable.  It's not crowded.  It can be fun, depending upon your company and the other riders and scenery interesting beautiful.  Sue beats most of I-101   Try it. 

 

But, I realize that HSR, on this route, is not likely, anytime soon. 

 

Even for 1 person, the big issue I have is that there is only 1 train per day, and airfare is comparable in price when booked more than 21 days in advance. 

 

I would like to try it out some day though. 

 

 

 

[Naviguessor]

Honestly, it's not even everyday service.  I usually like to get there as early as possible and faster (I prefer not to travel at night. ) So, generally, I fly or rent a car to get there.  But returning, the 9AM departure schedule, including Monday morning, works perfectly. 

[cspwal]

39 minutes ago, mollusk said:

 

Not so much.  Amtrak comes up the UP line that's parallel to the west loop, and then curves around to join the line that is parallel to 290.  

 

The direct Dallas - NOLA service that bypassed Houston was Texas & Pacific's Louisiana Eagle.

I meant for a highspeed rail line.  I know that the Sunset limited route would work, but it has too many grade crossings to be used for HSR

[samagon]

On 5/11/2018 at 11:52 AM, BeerNut said:

High speed train from Houston to New Orleans?

 

From Houston to Disney World with a single stop at New Orleans.

 

Better still:

 

Disney Land to Disney World with Stops in New Orleans, Houston, El Paso and Phoenix.

Edited May 16, 2018 by samagon

[cspwal]

10 minutes ago, samagon said:

 

From Houston to Disney World with a single stop at New Orleans.

 

Better still:

 

Disney Land to Disney World with Stops in New Orleans, Houston, El Paso and Phoenix.

 

Connect in Orlando to the florida train, and you can go from Long beach to South beach

[EllenOlenska]

https://archpaper.com/2018/06/texas-15-billion-bullet-train-roll-out/

Not sure if this is news, but it it is, wonderful. 

What get's me is when people write "additional stops between the two cities, such as in the city of Byran/College Station, have already been confirmed," when they must be talking about Roans Prairie. I went to A&M and Sam Houston State, and neither of them is within walking distance. 

[gmac]

PR BS. That fantasy train isn't getting off the ground any time soon.

[UtterlyUrban]

1 hour ago, gmac said:

PR BS. That fantasy train isn't getting off the ground any time soon.

I am saddened by your comment.  The reason why I am saddened is that I believe you to be correct.

[ADCS]

17 hours ago, gmac said:

PR BS. That fantasy train isn't getting off the ground any time soon.

 

Real easy to be a naysayer. You have any evidence for why this is so, right now?

[gmac]

4 hours ago, ADCS said:

 

Real easy to be a naysayer. You have any evidence for why this is so, right now?

 

There is a serious fight against this project in the countryside, and the backers of the HSR don't have the funding to make it happen yet.

[ADCS]

36 minutes ago, gmac said:

 

There is a serious fight against this project in the countryside, and the backers of the HSR don't have the funding to make it happen yet.

 

They've been fighting from the beginning, and losing.

[gmac]

2 hours ago, ADCS said:

 

They've been fighting from the beginning, and losing.

 

Losing how?

[BigFootsSocks]

Unfortunately it feels like they’re not losing, even when they should be. TAHSR’s claims are wildly overstated and grossly untrue but all you have to do is spread fear and propaganda and you can convince anyone

[gmac]

16 minutes ago, BigFootsSocks said:

Unfortunately it feels like they’re not losing, even when they should be. TAHSR’s claims are wildly overstated and grossly untrue but all you have to do is spread fear and propaganda and you can convince anyone

 

I think you meant to say that the high-speed rail folks have made wildly overstated claims that are grossly untrue. Their numbers were pulled out of something rather less savory than a hat.

 

I get that some of you want a magic train. Problem is, the money is just not there to either build it, or keep it operating, without huge public subsidies.

[UtterlyUrban]

5 hours ago, gmac said:

 

I think you meant to say that the high-speed rail folks have made wildly overstated claims that are grossly untrue. Their numbers were pulled out of something rather less savory than a hat.

 

I get that some of you want a magic train. Problem is, the money is just not there to either build it, or keep it operating, without huge public subsidies.

I am a simple man.  Math can be a challenge for me.  However.......

 

$15b to build it.  Some of that will be debt and some will be equity.  However, if it were all debt, interest rates are rising right now - let’s say that they could get 3%.  That’s $450m in interest only per year.  Take the average ticket.....say $300 round trip..... that’s 1.5m round trips per year just to pay the interest.  Forget about operating costs, etc.  That’s only the interest.  My numbers are wrong, I am certain , as they will assuredly not finance this 100% debt..  The point is that this project at 15b isn’t going to be simple to finance.

 

there is a reason why government normally pays for infrastructure projects.... roads, bridges, airports, etc.   

[ADCS]

10 hours ago, BigFootsSocks said:

Unfortunately it feels like they’re not losing, even when they should be. TAHSR’s claims are wildly overstated and grossly untrue but all you have to do is spread fear and propaganda and you can convince anyone

 

TAHSR is loud, but they haven't been effective. Houston and DFW interests are too strongly behind the project, and you don't have airlines seeking to torpedo the thing like before.

 

One thing to remember - all the top executives are high-level Republicans and donors, many of them Bush allies.

[Nate99]

8 hours ago, UtterlyUrban said:

I am a simple man.  Math can be a challenge for me.  However.......

 

$15b to build it.  Some of that will be debt and some will be equity.  However, if it were all debt, interest rates are rising right now - let’s say that they could get 3%.  That’s $450m in interest only per year.  Take the average ticket.....say $300 round trip..... that’s 1.5m round trips per year just to pay the interest.  Forget about operating costs, etc.  That’s only the interest.  My numbers are wrong, I am certain , as they will assuredly not finance this 100% debt..  The point is that this project at 15b isn’t going to be simple to finance.

 

there is a reason why government normally pays for infrastructure projects.... roads, bridges, airports, etc.   

 

They would need a heck of a guarantee from some deep pockets to get 3% on any significant fraction of that $15 bn.  Airlines can't get that kind of rate on debt that is completely secured by aircraft used as collateral.

 

I've said it before, I'd love to see the business model here.  

[Houston19514]

11 hours ago, UtterlyUrban said:

I am a simple man.  Math can be a challenge for me.  However.......

 

$15b to build it.  Some of that will be debt and some will be equity.  However, if it were all debt, interest rates are rising right now - let’s say that they could get 3%.  That’s $450m in interest only per year.  Take the average ticket.....say $300 round trip..... that’s 1.5m round trips per year just to pay the interest.  Forget about operating costs, etc.  That’s only the interest.  My numbers are wrong, I am certain , as they will assuredly not finance this 100% debt..  The point is that this project at 15b isn’t going to be simple to finance.

 

there is a reason why government normally pays for infrastructure projects.... roads, bridges, airports, etc.   

 

Bullet Train ridership is anticipated to ramp up to 5 million journeys by the mid 2020’s, and 10 million journeys by 2050.  That’s 30% of the anticipated number of long-distance trips between North Texas and The Greater Houston Metro Area.

[UtterlyUrban]

1 minute ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Bullet Train ridership is anticipated to ramp up to 5 million journeys by the mid 2020’s, and 10 million journeys by 2050.  That’s 30% of the anticipated number of long-distance trips between North Texas and The Greater Houston Metro Area.

Ok, so, if you believe that number, that is 2.5m round trips.  Of which, 1.5m of them will pay for INTEREST only (not even principal and certainly not operating expenses).  Do notice however that they expect a RAMP to that during likely a 5 year period after they commence operation.  It is therefore possible that they will lose Billions in aggregate during that 5 years from when they start taking passengers to the point that they breakeven.  That negative cash-flow will mean even more cash needs.

 

oh, and by 2050, nearly TWO GENERATIONS from now,  anyone’s “forecast” is worth exactly zero.

[UtterlyUrban]

2 hours ago, Nate99 said:

 

They would need a heck of a guarantee from some deep pockets to get 3% on any significant fraction of that $15 bn.  Airlines can't get that kind of rate on debt that is completely secured by aircraft used as collateral.

 

I've said it before, I'd love to see the business model here.  

I was thinking “tax exempt debt” — the vehicles that sewer treatment works, garbage dumps, etc use to finance as a “public infrastructure” project.  I have zero idea if this project qualifies however.

 

 

[Houston19514]

And I think the cost estimate is $12 Billion, not 15