Texas Central Project

[ADCS]

Pardon if this has been addressed here but what about the idea  of having an Uptown station and a Downtown station (barring cost factor), where the rail is submerged into a tunnel to downtown near the Uptown station. Passengers have a choice of either destinations, Downtown Houston to/from Dallas and Uptown Houston to/from Dallas.

 

Tunnel would probably cost ~$3 billion itself. Not likely to happen up front when you're being funded through private investment.

[BigFootsSocks]

So the mod that deleted this post, while leaving up numerous other off-topic posts...thanks.

Here's some actual news, but you can delete it later I guess.

http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/33-Texas-officials-send-Japanese-Ambassador-6756610.php

Seriously though, TCR needs to get the many state officials that approve of this project to write in letters as well. Show that the state really does want this project.

[cspwal]

It seems that a lot of the anti-TCR crowd think that the Japanese Railroad is owned by the government... it isn't.  This would be like a group in Japan sending a letter to the US ambassador to stop a proposed line using GE locomotives.

[BigFootsSocks]

I just don't understand the 11 Republican congressmen that would oppose a private project. I don't know the political affiliations of the other 22 but they are small town mayors, judges, etc.

[ADCS]

I'm ready for some investigation into where Texans Against HSR's funding comes from. They've been pretty persistent for losing every step of the way.

[mollusk]

I just don't understand the 11 Republican congressmen that would oppose a private project. I don't know the political affiliations of the other 22 but they are small town mayors, judges, etc.

 

That's the problem with expecting consistency between stated ideology and actual actions.  However, knee jerk opposition to new railroads (and change in general) isn't exactly a new concept.

[WestUdweller]

I mean who didn't expect this?  Doesn't even register as a bump in the road to me.  Just elected officials representing their constituents so they can say they did something/tried. 

[august948]

 

"Through their recently formed U.S. companies, the HSR Project would unjustly take private property for the ultimate benefit of a foreign company," the letter states.

"Furthermore, the HSR Project will cut through numerous counties that will have no stops and be permanently scarred by a track dividing land and property that has been passed down through Texas families for generations, in many cases spanning multiple centuries," the letter continues.

 

Is TCR a foreign company?  Is the HSR being built just so Central Japan Railway can sell the technology to someone?

 

East Texas is crisscrossed by existing rail lines.  Are those tracks permanently scarring the land and dividing property that has been passed down for generations?  Besides, isn't this mostly following existing lines or corridors?

[cspwal]

It's mostly following a utility corridor, which doesn't divide as much as a train track but still has an impact on your property.

Also, TCR is a private company US company with investors that include the Japanese company supplying the technology

Finally, they are going to put a station in the college station area so it will be stopping between Houston and Texas

It's very much a fear of change, don't touch my land mentality. Probably fueled by memories of the trans-Texas corridor. It might also be a bargaining tactic for the sale of land that TCR needs - make them pay more

[LarryDierker]

Is 'property that's been in my family for generations' supposed to elicit sympathy from the the vast majority that were born propertyless?

 

So you don't want to sell a few acres of the 5000 acres your great grand pappy left you. Boo mf'n hoo!

[ADCS]

Is 'property that's been in my family for generations' supposed to elicit sympathy from the the vast majority that were born propertyless?

 

So you don't want to sell a few acres of the 5000 acres your great grand pappy left you. Boo mf'n hoo!

 

Well, there's a not-too-subtle attitude from many of these folks that the opinions of those who don't hold real property don't matter all that much.

[BigFootsSocks]

Which is ironic considering the gist of their argument is that us city folk only care about Houston or Dallas.

[august948]

Which is ironic considering the gist of their argument is that us city folk only care about Houston or Dallas.

 

Which is basically true.  Why should we care about what happens to their land any more than they should care about traffic and travel options between Houston and Dallas?

 

[Visitor]

Still talks (TXDOT/TCR) going on about putting in a commuter line from terminus to Downtown down the I-10 corridor. Express service to downtown only. 

 

On a somewhat related note, Mayor Turner called for more focus on intercity and regional rail (amongst other things) at the latest Texas Transportation Commission.

 

http://usa.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2016/01/Talking-points-Mayor-Turner-at-Tx-Trans-Commn-3.pdf

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Visitor

[BigFootsSocks]

I didn't see anything in that link about ongoing talks for the commuter line, or is that what your sources have said? Interesting.

[Visitor]

Just hearsay in some circles.

The bit about Turner was just a note about his recent comments relative to rail. A commuter line down 10 would seem to fit his thoughts.

[BigFootsSocks]

Ah gotcha, no I totally agree with you though. I expect we'll see some of his ideas within the next year or so.

[BigFootsSocks]

TCR should disable comments on their facebook page. 

[cspwal]

Put Congressman Kevin Brady for the 8th district (Woodlands, Montgomery Country) in the "doesn't like trains" camp

 

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/with-primary-looming-congressman-kevin-brady-wades-into-the-bullet-train-fight-8141497

 

Of course the article doesn't mention TCR's announcement of a station near college station at all

[ADCS]

Put Congressman Kevin Brady for the 8th district (Woodlands, Montgomery Country) in the "doesn't like trains" camp

 

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/with-primary-looming-congressman-kevin-brady-wades-into-the-bullet-train-fight-8141497

 

Of course the article doesn't mention TCR's announcement of a station near college station at all

 

“Taking property against a landowner’s will, especially land that may have been in the family for generations, is a serious matter. Because this is a state project, I am requesting your leadership in determining if Texas Central Partners has state eminent domain power. I question that it does," Brady wrote.

 

Because if you don't like reality, just question it!

[mollusk]

[The Pragmatist]

http://on.khou.com/1Xh9mDW

Just another story on the HSR line. The comments on their Facebook post for the story are entertaining, to say the least.

[BigFootsSocks]

But Jordan argues that point.

“The people who commute from Dallas to Houston, those who do it on a daily basis, eventually move to Dallas or Houston permanently or they fly,” Jordan said.

This is her response to the financial benefits that will come to these counties over the next 25 years.

I'm not really surprised by the lack of any evidence or factual claims against the project, but I'm a little worried at how easily Texans Against HSR persuades the people along the line with nothing but fear tactics.

Edited February 10, 2016 by BigFootsSocks

[ADCS]

This is her response to the financial benefits that will come to these counties over the next 25 years.

I'm not really surprised by the lack of any evidence or factual claims against the project, but I'm a little worried at how easily Texans Against HSR persuades the people along the line with nothing but fear tactics.

 

I don't think there's much persuading to be done - the country folk don't like us city folk much, and they really don't like foreigners. Give them just a bit of rationalization and FUD, and they'll be frothing at the mouth in no time.

 

Never mind the actual landowners who are impacted - they can't wait for the annual paychecks for the use of their land that go far beyond whatever productive use they'd get out of it. It's their neighbors who always have the strong opinions on the subject.

[Sparrow]

Never mind the actual landowners who are impacted - they can't wait for the annual paychecks for the use of their land that go far beyond whatever productive use they'd get out of it. It's their neighbors who always have the strong opinions on the subject.

It's that neighbor thing that has Brady all in a twist if I remember correctly. The folks up in The Woodlands wanted the line to go straight up 45 so they could benefit. Since the line is going west of Montgomery County they disapprove of the thing entirely. The thing is, the new Grimes County station area will become the new "it" bedroom community. 

[cspwal]

Looks like the city wants the train to go to downtown

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2016/05/03/148932/city-of-houston-wants-to-study-feasibility-of-high-speed-rail-terminal-downtown/

Quote

Council member Larry Green, who chairs the council’s transportation committee, said based on the study’s results the city wants to determine whether it makes sense for the rail to go to downtown, “and that we’ve made sure that the city has done its due diligence with regard to looking at all possibilities in making that happen.”

 

[Ross]

Where is Green going to get the money to do this unnecessary study? It's not like the City is flush with cash.

[ADCS]

Define "unnecessary".

 

We already know you're against big infrastructure projects, Ross. Where's your support?

[Ross]

Unnecessary because the private entity making the plans has done the work already.  If the City was flush with cash, I might be far less opposed. And, its not like the City can force the rail company to build an extension to Downtown

[cspwal]

I take it as a positive sign that they might try to float a bond measure or something to pay for it to go downtown

[Ross]

3 hours ago, cspwal said:

I take it as a positive sign that they might try to float a bond measure or something to pay for it to go downtown

Oh hell no. I would fight using any City money at all to do that. We can't afford the debt we have now.

[IronTiger]

One of my theories is why it won't go it downtown is the heavy resistance it would face from the Rice Military/Washington Avenue corridor. I imagine there's probably as much money concentrated there than a few disgruntled rural owners with deep pockets. Probably these concerns aren't even mentioned in the paper as it's easier to blame the rural resistance than the Inner Loop.

[ADCS]

That's not exactly a theory - if you've been to any of TCR's events, you would have seen a handful of Rice Military folks who are extremely vocal about their opposition to the line. However, that's mostly likely why a downtown route would follow I-10. It's still too early to tell if that opposition would permanently sink its chances if it's not directly impacting the neighborhood.

Edited May 4, 2016 by ADCS

[Triton]

It would be cool for it to go downtown but not if the city currently can't afford it. It would be fairly expensive for even a small segment compared to the overall project. Perhaps in a future expansion. There's going to be a lot of backlash if they made the line run down the existing rail corridor near Washington Ave so I would imagine their best bet would be somewhere along or above I-10.

[BigFootsSocks]

Unless the city is really confident in its potential for a large and constant civilian presence in the downtown area in the near future, I don't really get their point in doing this, though I can easily see why since Dallas will get a downtown spot.

[IronTiger]

8 hours ago, Triton said:

It would be cool for it to go downtown but not if the city currently can't afford it. It would be fairly expensive for even a small segment compared to the overall project. Perhaps in a future expansion. There's going to be a lot of backlash if they made the line run down the existing rail corridor near Washington Ave so I would imagine their best bet would be somewhere along or above I-10.

How would that go about, really? Not talking about why it would even go to downtown to begin with (I don't want to start that argument again) or if TxDOT would even give up even the inner shoulders, but let's say they did. Basically, you would have to build a two-level elevated superstructure above the overpasses during the sunken parts (and not only would it be a bit unsightly, but it would have to be built much stronger than traditional highway structures, due to the weight limits--if you remember, METRO contributed money to over-engineer the Katy Tollway so it could support trains. On the above-ground portions, it would be also have to be higher, and in the end, it would probably be just as costly if not more so between giant superstructures and wrangling with TxDOT.

[BigFootsSocks]

I assume he meant along the median in the middle which could be diverted once it reaches the HOV line into downtown.

[ADCS]

11 hours ago, IronTiger said:

How would that go about, really? Not talking about why it would even go to downtown to begin with (I don't want to start that argument again) or if TxDOT would even give up even the inner shoulders, but let's say they did. Basically, you would have to build a two-level elevated superstructure above the overpasses during the sunken parts (and not only would it be a bit unsightly, but it would have to be built much stronger than traditional highway structures, due to the weight limits--if you remember, METRO contributed money to over-engineer the Katy Tollway so it could support trains. On the above-ground portions, it would be also have to be higher, and in the end, it would probably be just as costly if not more so between giant superstructures and wrangling with TxDOT.

 

You're right about the increased cost, which is why TCR prefers the NW Mall area. Apparently, an inner loop segment could cost as much as half of the line between Dallas and Houston, owing to design constraints. Any access to Downtown would likely require municipal, METRO, state or federal assistance in funding.

 

It's not impossible, though - it's an engineering problem through-and-through, and Houston tends to be good at solving those. Hell, if we agreed to call it the Aggie Express between Downtown and Shiro, you'd probably find plenty of engineers willing to work for free 

[BigFootsSocks]

Where'd you get that cost proposal from? I've read that it's only (lol) $1 billion for the cost from 610/290 into downtown, which is still a lot of money.

[IronTiger]

1 hour ago, ADCS said:

 

You're right about the increased cost, which is why TCR prefers the NW Mall area. Apparently, an inner loop segment could cost as much as half of the line between Dallas and Houston, owing to design constraints. Any access to Downtown would likely require municipal, METRO, state or federal assistance in funding.

 

It's not impossible, though - it's an engineering problem through-and-through, and Houston tends to be good at solving those. Hell, if we agreed to call it the Aggie Express between Downtown and Shiro, you'd probably find plenty of engineers willing to work for free 

If it cost as much as half of the line, then we're talking billions of dollars, and if we're talking "local, state, or federal funding" then you just gave the "No HSR in Texas" crowd a whole lot of ammo to work with.

[ADCS]

1 minute ago, IronTiger said:

If it cost as much as half of the line, then we're talking billions of dollars, and if we're talking "local, state, or federal funding" then you just gave the "No HSR in Texas" crowd a whole lot of ammo to work with.

 

Yes to both. This is why I believe TCR is staying away from a Downtown station, unless funding for Downtown is a fait accompli.

 

There are mostly Bush-era Republicans in charge of TCR. They know exactly how the political situation in this state works.

[Triton]

Elevated superstructure? Ummm.... a bridge?

 

 

Anyway, there's several ways they can run along I-10 and I thought someone even outlined how this could work. Although the weight differences are significant, it's pretty comparable to the elevated bus line along 610 in the Galleria area. A possible mixture between running along the median and then running along White Oak Bayou. It's not that far fetched really....

[BigFootsSocks]

Lol there's no way it could be built along White Oak; the HCFCD easement for that is massive and there's no way they'd allow something to be built on a major drainage channel

[Triton]

Sigh... sounds like I need to make a visualization of what I'm talking about. It would run along the north side of I-10 starting between Studemont and Taylor, and the structure would remain elevated. I'm not going to design this whole thing in my head but it's certainly possible and someone (I believe in this very thread) created a map outlining how it could work. 

[ADCS]

5 hours ago, BigFootsSocks said:

Where'd you get that cost proposal from? I've read that it's only (lol) $1 billion for the cost from 610/290 into downtown, which is still a lot of money.

 

Something I remember from one of the open houses, but I could be remembering incorrectly.

[BigFootsSocks]

1 minute ago, ADCS said:

 

Something I remember from one of the open houses, but I could be remembering incorrectly.

Maybe they're associating the per-mile cost as exponentially more than the rest of the line.

[IronTiger]

5 hours ago, Triton said:

Elevated superstructure? Ummm.... a bridge?

 

 

Anyway, there's several ways they can run along I-10 and I thought someone even outlined how this could work. Although the weight differences are significant, it's pretty comparable to the elevated bus line along 610 in the Galleria area. A possible mixture between running along the median and then running along White Oak Bayou. It's not that far fetched really....

Of course it's far fetched, and it's not at all comparable to an elevated bus line. This isn't some two way HOV lane like you see in the medians of 45N and 290. The width between the tracks even is significant (not to mention things like wiring). Probably 50' absolute minimum, where as a BRT is just a two lane road with no shoulders (290's HOV lane is about 15', so...double that). You're free to show us what you mean, though.

[BigFootsSocks]

I think he means putting the tracks on elevated columns, so that the only space taken up are the size of the piers.

[Triton]

1 hour ago, BigFootsSocks said:

I think he means putting the tracks on elevated columns, so that the only space taken up are the size of the piers.

Exactly.

 

You really don't need that much room... perfect example is the light rail line with all the wirings and everything else that fits perfectly between the N Main lanes. It's not that large and the bullet train may have more width but nothing that would be that much different.

 

Not saying they need to do this. Just saying, if they wanted to go downtown, I believe this is the most likely route they would go if they didn't end up using the railroad tracks along Washington. Was it an open house? I do believe it was something more official.. yes.

[IronTiger]

8 minutes ago, Triton said:

Exactly.

 

You really don't need that much room... perfect example is the light rail line with all the wirings and everything else that fits perfectly between the N Main lanes. It's not that large and the bullet train may have more width but nothing that would be that much different.

 

Not saying they need to do this. Just saying, if they wanted to go downtown, I believe this is the most likely route they would go if they didn't end up using the railroad tracks along Washington. Was it an open house? I do believe it was something more official.. yes.

The light rail uses up about 35' in Main Street, including the shrubbery in the middle. In no world would you have cars running next to an HSR with only even a lane difference. But yes, I suppose cantilevered piers is indeed possible.

 

The problem will still be that it would end up being extremely expensive if it was a 2-level stack (about 32' columns)--I mean, just look at all that concrete in Taiwan. Running it between the highway and the frontage roads or parallel to it would end up gaining a lot of opposition and might require right of way clearance. Put it simply, an I-10 route is going to be by no means "cheaper" or "less resistance".