Texas Central Project

[Slick Vik]

Vik, how many days in your life have you commuted to work, or anywhere, by rail?

I take it five days a week. And I've taken it in San Francisco, New York, boston, Mexico City, London, buenos Aires, Rome, Tokyo, Vancouver, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Washington, D.C., and Dallas.

[IronTiger]

For those wanting a downtown station, is there any real reason other than a variant of these four arguments?

1) Dallas is getting theirs downtown. I feel jealous, and demand we should get parity. They mock us openly, and we deserve better.

2) I have this fantasy of a huge downtown-centric multi-modal transit center that requires it being downtown to work. I expect, or at least hope, that everyone takes public transit, and putting it at the NW Mall site would be conducive to none of that.

3) Despite all signs to the contrary, I really want downtown to be the center of Houston, where the center of town is.

4) Northwest Mall's area is a dump and will never improve or gentrify over time, or with the addition of a new HSR train station. There will also never be any transit over in that direction either.

[Slick Vik]

For those wanting a downtown station, is there any real reason other than a variant of these four arguments?

1) Dallas is getting theirs downtown. I feel jealous, and demand we should get parity. They mock us openly, and we deserve better.

2) I have this fantasy of a huge downtown-centric multi-modal transit center that requires it being downtown to work. I expect, or at least hope, that everyone takes public transit, and putting it at the NW Mall site would be conducive to none of that.

3) Despite all signs to the contrary, I really want downtown to be the center of Houston, where the center of town is.

4) Northwest Mall's area is a dump and will never improve or gentrify over time, or with the addition of a new HSR train station. There will also never be any transit over in that direction either.

Not putting it downtown is short sighted. If you can't see that you're blind and/or biased.

[august948]

Not putting it downtown is short sighted. If you can't see that you're blind and/or biased.

 

Since it's a private project, I'm sure you can offer to invest $12 billion in TCR for them to take it downtown.  Might get you a seat on the board of directors.  Let us know how that works out.

 

[Montrose1100]

For those wanting a downtown station, is there any real reason other than a variant of these four arguments?

1) Dallas is getting theirs downtown. I feel jealous, and demand we should get parity. They mock us openly, and we deserve better.

2) I have this fantasy of a huge downtown-centric multi-modal transit center that requires it being downtown to work. I expect, or at least hope, that everyone takes public transit, and putting it at the NW Mall site would be conducive to none of that.

3) Despite all signs to the contrary, I really want downtown to be the center of Houston, where the center of town is.

4) Northwest Mall's area is a dump and will never improve or gentrify over time, or with the addition of a new HSR train station. There will also never be any transit over in that direction either.

ALL OF THE ABOVE. 

 

it's nice to live in a fantasy world where important business people from Dallas and Houston will take this bullet train to and from each other, walking only blocks or one light rail station to their respective offices. Also, for sports fans to hop on the bullet train, hop on the light rail, and go down to NRG Park. Or families visiting whatever exhibit at either cities' museums (go ahead and throw in the hotels along the light rail lines). Or family members visiting for the weekend to hop on the rail lines to their houses. 

 

In reality this will be very few of the people who might consider this. If we were super dense, urban, walkable (and the same for Dallas), this would be a very real fantasy. People can easily pick up their family members from NW Mall by car. People will Uber, Taxi, have rides already at either location. Because not everyone using this HSR will be ending their final location along the red or other light rail lines. 

 

I've come to terms with the NW Mall site. It's not that far away, and would have easy access to Memorial to avoid I-10 if needing to get Downtown. Or Washington for that matter. Yes I want a fabulous/expensive inter-model station Downtown with all transportation modes available but that won't happen for a while. We still have some time to go. Besides, think of the historical median they would have to deface! 

[Sunstar]

For completely selfish reasons I'm glad to see it at the Northwest Mall site as I live just on the other side of the freeway and it would be within walking distance. Of course I almost never travel to Dallas, but I have this notion that it will raise property values in the immediate area. If I lived anywhere else in the city I'd be outraged. 

[JJxvi]

I really doubt that TCR is going to build some crown jewel station at NW Mall anyway.  If it is a success, then maybe they will extend the line downtown anyway at some point.  I suspect though that NW Mall will actually be viewed as being a pretty good location in the long run.

[Slick Vik]

1. Streetcars had their time and place. That time and place has been more or less over with for about 80 years. "Insert your point here about how your dad took them"? Are you copying some else's talking points?

2. If the good people of LA feel the need to build rail and want to spend the money on it, more power to them. What's your point here?

3. I think the more relevant question is why some rail lovers take cars as a threat to their way of life. There's room for both. Just like it's your option to carry or not carry. Except that the right to carry is enshrined in the Constitution and the right to a train is not. Not sure why you're bringing up gun laws here.

My point is LA is the ultimate car oriented city but even it realized that a strictly car oriented society is not the answer. Houston will find out soon enough, the hard way.

[ADCS]

I really doubt that TCR is going to build some crown jewel station at NW Mall anyway.  If it is a success, then maybe they will extend the line downtown anyway at some point.  I suspect though that NW Mall will actually be viewed as being a pretty good location in the long run.

 

It will likely be nicer than you think. The model is for most of the money to be made off of retail to begin with. It wouldn't surprise me to see something like a CityCentre be developed beside the train station.

[gmac]

I take it five days a week. And I've taken it in San Francisco, New York, boston, Mexico City, London, buenos Aires, Rome, Tokyo, Vancouver, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Washington, D.C., and Dallas.

 

OK, and in your apparently extensive commuting experience (Las Vegas doesn't have commuter rail, btw), when you looked out the window did you see a bunch of cars, perhaps?

 

As an aside, I am incredibly impressed that you have lived and worked and commuted in 10+ major cities around the world. Kudos on your lengthy international career!

[BigFootsSocks]

OK, and in your apparently extensive commuting experience (Las Vegas doesn't have commuter rail, btw), when you looked out the window did you see a bunch of cars, perhaps?

As an aside, I am incredibly impressed that you have lived and worked and commuted in 10+ major cities around the world. Kudos on your lengthy international career!

Que Simpsons Monorail joke.

[Slick Vik]

OK, and in your apparently extensive commuting experience (Las Vegas doesn't have commuter rail, btw), when you looked out the window did you see a bunch of cars, perhaps?

As an aside, I am incredibly impressed that you have lived and worked and commuted in 10+ major cities around the world. Kudos on your lengthy international career!

No those are all the cities I've taken rail in. Commuting you can limit to Houston, Dallas, San Francisco, Vancouver, and New York. And yes Las Vegas is a monorail.

[IronTiger]

I think I figured out why it doesn't go downtown. If we assume urban areas are more expensive to go through (more sound walls, more crossings, etc.) it mostly has to do with sprawl and where the rail is coming in.

The "urbanized" area from Dallas downtown area to less developed areas (around the I-20 border) is about 9 miles. From the first "urbanized" area (development on both sides of the track), for Houston, that's Barker-Cypress Road. Onto Northwest Mall is 23 miles, then add on another six if you wanted to take it downtown. Houston's not the only one with sprawl, if Houston was north of Dallas, then there would be 30 miles of sprawl from downtown to McKinney (as the crow flies), then it would be less than 19 miles from Highway 6 (near Alvin) to downtown (following the tracks), or if the tracks came in from the northeast, about 9 miles out of downtown before hitting "the city".

[ADCS]

I think I figured out why it doesn't go downtown. If we assume urban areas are more expensive to go through (more sound walls, more crossings, etc.) it mostly has to do with sprawl and where the rail is coming in.

The "urbanized" area from Dallas downtown area to less developed areas (around the I-20 border) is about 9 miles. From the first "urbanized" area (development on both sides of the track), for Houston, that's Barker-Cypress Road. Onto Northwest Mall is 23 miles, then add on another six if you wanted to take it downtown. Houston's not the only one with sprawl, if Houston was north of Dallas, then there would be 30 miles of sprawl from downtown to McKinney (as the crow flies), then it would be less than 19 miles from Highway 6 (near Alvin) to downtown (following the tracks), or if the tracks came in from the northeast, about 9 miles out of downtown before hitting "the city".

 

Also, the folks in south and east Dallas aren't rich white folks with political connections and the means to litigate.

[Sparrow]

I realize it wasn't addressed in the last mile report, but certainly the TxDOT intended rebuild of I-45 might have something to do with not going all the way to Downtown just yet. How could TxDOT possibly allow use of their right-of-way over/under/thru I-45/I-10 before a massive $6B+ rebuild?  

[Howard Huge]

There are too many damn "powers that be" in Houston.

It's getting old.

[ADCS]

There are too many damn "powers that be" in Houston.

It's getting old.

 

Eh, there are really only four - land developers, auto dealers, engineering departments and wealthy middle age to elderly residents with strong opinions and without jobs 

[cloud713]

I think I figured out why it doesn't go downtown. If we assume urban areas are more expensive to go through (more sound walls, more crossings, etc.) it mostly has to do with sprawl and where the rail is coming in.

The "urbanized" area from Dallas downtown area to less developed areas (around the I-20 border) is about 9 miles. From the first "urbanized" area (development on both sides of the track), for Houston, that's Barker-Cypress Road. Onto Northwest Mall is 23 miles, then add on another six if you wanted to take it downtown. Houston's not the only one with sprawl, if Houston was north of Dallas, then there would be 30 miles of sprawl from downtown to McKinney (as the crow flies), then it would be less than 19 miles from Highway 6 (near Alvin) to downtown (following the tracks), or if the tracks came in from the northeast, about 9 miles out of downtown before hitting "the city".

No offense, but surely you didn't just come to that conclusion.. I thought that was pretty obvious? Or at least to anyone who knows the development trends and demographics of each city.

[BigFootsSocks]

The more people that understand that, the better though. There's way too much confusion over this site that hasn't been officially announced by TCR (by FRA, yes).

Would be great for TCR to clarify this soon.

[Urbannizer]

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/11/japanese-company-investing-40m-in-dallas-houston-bullet-train.html/

 

 

Japanese company investing $40M in Dallas-Houston bullet train

 

As Vice President Joe Biden hinted last week, a Japanese investment firm plans to invest tens of millions of dollars in the planned high-speed train line between Dallas and Houston. Japan Overseas Infrastructure Investment Corporation for Transport and Urban Development, whose headquarters is in Tokyo, announced on Saturday its decision to invest $40 million in the project.

 

Texas development company Texas Central Partners plans to use the same high-speed railway technology used for decades on the Shinkansen system that links Tokyo and Osaka.

 

 

[astros148]

and they cant go downtown. yeah right

[BigFootsSocks]

Ok so that's around $115 million invested so far?

That, ladies and gents is progress.

[astros148]

so we're at about 1% of the total cost so far.

[BigFootsSocks]

so we're at about 1% of the total cost so far.

Progress!!!!!

[cspwal]

A train year in review

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2015/12/08/year-in-review-high-speed-rail-builds-leadership.html?s=print

 

 

 

In 2016, the high-speed rail project will continue to raise capital, lock down their route and depot locations, and finalize the project ahead of a 2017 ground breaking.

 

[astros148]

and still end up in a empty parking lot

[august948]

Won't be empty for long.

[cspwal]

I'm sure if Houston came up with money for a station downtown, TCR would magically change their mind and route all the way downtown.

 

 

 

 

 

And if pigs had sufficient wing area, there would be no reason they couldn't fly

[BigFootsSocks]

Yeah, the company spending billions of dollars on a radical new (for Texas and US) form of transportation is totally gonna build a station without any sort of mixed use concepts around it.

[astros148]

Mixed used that is a painful traffic ride away of EVERYTHING

[BigFootsSocks]

That's understandable but you can't honestly think TCR hasn't planned for a massive mixed use component next to the depot? Look at any major European city's high speed rail terminals.

[august948]

Mixed used that is a painful traffic ride away of EVERYTHING

10 mins to the galleria, 15 to downtown, 15 to the energy corridor. What pain?

[BigFootsSocks]

In his defense, which...ugh...610 is in a perpetual state of suck.

[cspwal]

It sounds like the Gulf Coast Rail district wants the station downtown.  I don't know if they can do much though - what do they currently do?  There's no commuter rail right now, and I don't know of any plans to make any except for Metro's deal with Culberson

 

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2015/12/08/130355/study-would-look-at-new-options-for-high-speed-rail-in-houston/

[mfastx]

10 mins to the galleria, 15 to downtown, 15 to the energy corridor. What pain?

 

610 from 290 to 59 is absolute and total suckage, c'mon man. 

[august948]

610 from 290 to 59 is absolute and total suckage, c'mon man. 

 

During rush hour, perhaps, but c'mon man even then it's about 20 mins tops 59 to 290.  I'm looking at the live transtar camera at 610 and Westheimer right now and traffic is moving fine.

[august948]

It sounds like the Gulf Coast Rail district wants the station downtown.  I don't know if they can do much though - what do they currently do?  There's no commuter rail right now, and I don't know of any plans to make any except for Metro's deal with Culberson

 

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2015/12/08/130355/study-would-look-at-new-options-for-high-speed-rail-in-houston/

 

I'm sure if they can come up with the money and political pull TCR would let them pay for an extension downtown.

 

Realistically, though, they've got bupkis.

 

[cspwal]

I'm sure if someone else was willing to foot the bill, TCR would agree to an extension to Galveston.

[cloud713]

During rush hour, perhaps, but c'mon man even then it's about 20 mins tops 59 to 290. I'm looking at the live transtar camera at 610 and Westheimer right now and traffic is moving fine.

20 minutes tops? I've seen the traffic warning boards showing times of ~50 minutes to make that stretch of 610.. The express commuter lanes cant come soon enough.

[august948]

20 minutes tops? I've seen the traffic warning boards showing times of ~50 minutes to make that stretch of 610.. The express commuter lanes cant come soon enough.

 

If there's an accident, maybe.  But that's true of all the freeways.

 

I'm not saying the West Loop is a breeze during rush hour, but it's not impassable either.

 

And swinging back to the point here, from a TCR station at NW Mall you can go east or west on I10, north or south on 610 and northwest on 290.  Lots of other options are closer than if the TCR station were in downtown.

 

[Sunstar]

It sounds like the Gulf Coast Rail district wants the station downtown.  I don't know if they can do much though - what do they currently do?  There's no commuter rail right now, and I don't know of any plans to make any except for Metro's deal with Culberson

 

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2015/12/08/130355/study-would-look-at-new-options-for-high-speed-rail-in-houston/

 

If they go with the Commuter rail option, could they use the existing rail lines that run along Hempstead, add a stop by the HSR station, and continue on to the Amtrack station or other location downtown? I assume those lines already carry freight and passenger trains. Could they also accommodate commuter rail cars that run all the way down from the Cypress Park and Ride?

[august948]

If they go with the Commuter rail option, could they use the existing rail lines that run along Hempstead, add a stop by the HSR station, and continue on to the Amtrack station or other location downtown? I assume those lines already carry freight and passenger trains. Could they also accommodate commuter rail cars that run all the way down from the Cypress Park and Ride?

 

I think the problem they run into with that is getting permission from the railroad (UP?) to use the tracks.  It could be done but would probably require major schedule changes for freight traffic.  With the new panama canal expansion and the expected freight traffic bump to Houston, there may be a lot of pushback on using existing lines.

 

[Houston19514]

If there's an accident, maybe.  But that's true of all the freeways.

 

I'm not saying the West Loop is a breeze during rush hour, but it's not impassable either.

 

And swinging back to the point here, from a TCR station at NW Mall you can go east or west on I10, north or south on 610 and northwest on 290.  Lots of other options are closer than if the TCR station were in downtown.

 

 

And from a downtown station, you can go east or west on I10, north or south on 45, north(east) or southwest on 59/69, north on the Hardy, south on 288, plus north and south on the Red Line and east on the purple and green lines. 

 

It is pretty clear that the downtown site would be more convenient to more people and more destinations.  I think the TCR study said as much.  The only reason they are settling on the Northwest site is the cost of acquiring right of way inside the loop.

 

[august948]

And from a downtown station, you can go east or west on I10, north or south on 45, north(east) or southwest on 59/69, north on the Hardy, south on 288, plus north and south on the Red Line and east on the purple and green lines. 

 

It is pretty clear that the downtown site would be more convenient to more people and more destinations.  I think the TCR study said as much.  The only reason they are settling on the Northwest site is the cost of acquiring right of way inside the loop.

 

 

I'd venture to guess not too many TCR riders are going to be going east on I10.  Going west on I10 you'll have to pass the NW Mall station to get anywhere.  45 and the Hardy are right off 610.  Not much 59 north or 288 south once you pass TMC.  59 south can be almost as much of a bear as the west loop.

 

Hey, a downtown station in addition to the NW station would be nice, but we'll do just fine without it.  Maybe it'll spur more than just talk for commuter and light rail service in the uptown area.

 

[Sunstar]

I think the problem they run into with that is getting permission from the railroad (UP?) to use the tracks.  It could be done but would probably require major schedule changes for freight traffic.  With the new panama canal expansion and the expected freight traffic bump to Houston, there may be a lot of pushback on using existing lines.

 

 

I remember the original proposal to run commuter rail out 290 that had Culberson's support, as not surprisingly it ran through his district. Which just goes to show that Congressmen aren't against proposals on their merit, they're only against them if it doesn't benefit their constituents. But I digress.

 

I can't remember if that proposal was suggesting to use the UP tracks and ended up being a no go, or if they were suggesting a separate ROW. With all the road construction on 290 now, I'm surprised they didn't try to work in some kind of rail element. In fact, if we're going to be doing these multi year, tens of millions of dollars freeway expansions, there should be a requirement to at least add a ROW for rail transit, even if they don't build it as part of the initial  project. 

[JJxvi]

20 minutes tops? I've seen the traffic warning boards showing times of ~50 minutes to make that stretch of 610.. The express commuter lanes cant come soon enough.

 

50 minutes from 290 to 59 is a ridiculous number and does not exist unless there would be an accident that shuts down all or most lanes, which is something that could happen on any freeway.

 

20 minutes is really bad traffic likely only due to construction of some kind.  Full speed is less than 5 minutes. 10-15 is a bad rush hour.

Edited December 10, 2015 by JJxvi

[Montrose1100]

50 minutes from 290 to 59 is a ridiculous number and does not exist unless there would be an accident that shuts down all or most lanes, which is something that could happen on any freeway.

 

20 minutes is really bad traffic likely only due to construction of some kind.  Full speed is less than 5 minutes. 10-15 is a bad rush hour.

10-15 minutes bad rush hour is 59-10. 290 is easily 20 minutes.

[MaxConcrete]

At tonight's public meeting I spoke with a team member who was very knowledgeable on the project. He appeared to be the lead consultant for the alignment.

 

For the alignment along Hempstead, they are still working toward a fully elevated structure along Hempstead road, generally on the south side of the road and on the north side of the existing freight railroad. This type of design is depicted in one or more of the documents on the Texas Central web site. The alignment would dip to ground level only at Beltway 8 to go underneath the highway lanes.

 

In general, Texas Central wants the HSR project to be independent of TxDOT plans and anything the Gulf Coast Rail District may plan for the future. The independence will reduce or eliminate the risk of bureaucratic delays or snafus. So this rules out any cooperation with TxDOT to design the facility to be friendly to TxDOT's plans for the Hempstead toll road. The GCRD appeared to have some concerns about leaving enough space for future commuter rail, but I did not get the details of specific issues of concern.

 

It seems to me that the positioning of the elevated structure between the railroad and Hempstead Road may not be consistent with the Hempstead Toll Road plan. I'm thinking it would push the toll road corridor further north, requiring more right-of-way acquisition and possibly making it infeasible. As a practical matter, it could potentially preclude the Hempstead Toll Road from being built, although it is difficult to speculate without knowing exactly where the columns for the rail structure will be placed.

[ADCS]

At tonight's public meeting I spoke with a team member who was very knowledgeable on the project. He appeared to be the lead consultant for the alignment.

 

For the alignment along Hempstead, they are still working toward a fully elevated structure along Hempstead road, generally on the south side of the road and on the north side of the existing freight railroad. This type of design is depicted in one or more of the documents on the Texas Central web site. The alignment would dip to ground level only at Beltway 8 to go underneath the highway lanes.

 

In general, Texas Central wants the HSR project to be independent of TxDOT plans and anything the Gulf Coast Rail District may plan for the future. The independence will reduce or eliminate the risk of bureaucratic delays or snafus. So this rules out any cooperation with TxDOT to design the facility to be friendly to TxDOT's plans for the Hempstead toll road. The GCRD appeared to have some concerns about leaving enough space for future commuter rail, but I did not get the details of specific issues of concern.

 

It seems to me that the positioning of the elevated structure between the railroad and Hempstead Road may not be consistent with the Hempstead Toll Road plan. I'm thinking it would push the toll road corridor further north, requiring more right-of-way acquisition and possibly making it infeasible. As a practical matter, it could potentially preclude the Hempstead Toll Road from being built, although it is difficult to speculate without knowing exactly where the columns for the rail structure will be placed.

 

So, sounds like they're going to leverage that to try and get some cash out of HCTRA/TxDOT for the corridor, to make sure that there is space for the Hempstead TR. I'd guess that it would go to drainage improvements in the area, to keep things quiet.

 

Smart if that's the case.

[kw_uh97]

Pardon if this has been addressed here but what about the idea  of having an Uptown station and a Downtown station (barring cost factor), where the rail is submerged into a tunnel to downtown near the Uptown station. Passengers have a choice of either destinations, Downtown Houston to/from Dallas and Uptown Houston to/from Dallas.