Texas Central Project

[Houston19514]

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

 

"We" didn't turn it into anything.  "We" had nothing to do with it.  Just as "you" had nothing to do with their selection of a near-downtown Dallas site.  This decision was made by the private entity that will be paying for and operating the rail line and that, incidentally, gathered the facts regarding the costs and benefits of various station locations.

 

Take your trolling somewhere else.

[Houston19514]

The idea that travelers would be able to step out of the train terminal and be at their final destination is a fantasy even for downtown.  The business traveler  will be headed to an office or hotel downtown/uptown/greenway/along I-10 between Bunker Hill and Katy.  NW Mall/Transit center area is actually an ideal site, and much better located than Hobby Airport (which is the current Dallas to Houston exit point).  It's also a site that IS on the plans for future LRT both east to Downtown and south to Uptown.

 

It's also worth pointing out that it is even more of a fantasy that travelers to D-FW will be able to step out of the near-downtown Dallas train terminal and be at their final destination.   An even smaller portion of  DFW business is in their downtown than is the case for Houston.  The business traveler to D-FW will be headed to an office or hotel downtown/uptown, LBJ, Plano, Frisco, Richardson, mid-cities, Ft Worth, etc., etc., etc.  The near-downtown Dallas site is very far removed from the economic or population center of the metropolitan area and will be walkable to almost nothing.  Putting  the station there just removes so much of the utility.  ;-)

 

[ADCS]

Before all of the NIMBY comments come rolling in, the Houston HSR Watch is supportive of improved connectivity for Houston which includes light and commuter rail.  They are not against HSR, save for the infrastructure and disruption that would have been necessary to bring it downtown.  

 

That's the very definition of "not in my backyard".

 

I wish NIMBYs were more self-aware.

[Slick Vik]

Nobody from Dallas is going to use this. Ever.

Wrong

[BigFootsSocks]

Nobody from Dallas is going to use this. Ever.

[Visitor]

That's the very definition of "not in my backyard".

I wish NIMBYs were more self-aware.

Relative to the HSR? Absolutely.

But there is a general perception that the NIMBY mentality is directed at all things related to rail when its not the case.

I dont oppose HSR overall, though I don't believe it will successful as an alternative travel mode.

[ADCS]

Relative to the HSR? Absolutely.

But there is a general perception that the NIMBY mentality is directed at all things related to rail when its not the case.

I dont oppose HSR overall, though I don't believe it will successful as an alternative travel mode.

 

See, this is the sort of circular reasoning that NIMBYs use to justify what is primarily an irrational emotional response. Yes, it's agreed that the project is needed, but not anywhere near me - that's not a logical argument, that's emotional territoriality. It's based on an unjustified belief in the ownership of one's proximity, as opposed to the plat of land that one has title to.

 

You see this all the time in infrastructure projects - usually landowners do not mind giving up rights of way or easements - that's either a lucrative one-time transaction, or a steady source of income over the years. Their neighbors, on the other hand, are usually the biggest opponents, and the opposition is couched in terms of territoriality.

 

If there's a perception that the NIMBY mentality is directed at all things rail, that's probably because they're usually more successful there. There are too many strong countervailing interests in Houston to block a major road project (for example, the Grand Parkway F-2).

[Montrose1100]

Why would anyone from Dallas pay good money to take a HSP to NorthWest Mall? If I have to rent a car to get around and sit in traffic anyway, I might as well fly.

Then fly. You clearly don't understand the purpose of the train. If you think anyone taking the train to Dallas is only going because the station is close to Downtown or wouldn't take an uber/taxi/limo/driver... you are mistaken my friend.

[cspwal]

Also, the train should be much faster than driving and might be faster than flying (that will depend on how fast you can realistically get from entering the station to the train leaving)

[august948]

Why would anyone from Dallas pay good money to take a HSP to NorthWest Mall? If I have to rent a car to get around and sit in traffic anyway, I might as well fly.

 

Eureka!  That's the solution to our transport problems.  Forget trains and cars, just fly!

 

 

[BigFootsSocks]

TCR is gonna have to make an announcement soon about the station; if it's going to be at Northwest mall then they need to reassure everyone that the mall will be torn down.

Somehow, that's not obvious to everyone, but I understand the criticism.

[mfastx]

 

Why are we all getting hung up on this? The Northwest Mall site is not the mall itself. Almost certainly the mall will be flattened in the process or at least highly renovated. The old Foley's building will probably get demolished either way, and could provide an impetus to revive that part of town. Besides, even if it wasn't completely demolished, a renovated transit-oriented mall could provide a decent terminal, with places to eat, wait, or buy sundries at. That's what happens at all these actual transit/train stations in reality you guys claim to lionize.

 

And now you've got some Dallasite deliberately trying to troll you guys by taunting you that it's not downtown, and you're taking the bait.

 

That's all speculation, I doubt any of that would be paid for by TCR.  Maybe another developer might come in and do that, I hope so. 

 

 

You do know that TCR wanted to go downtown but the Fed's nixed it, right?

 

What's your source on this?  I read that they studied it and basically determined it was too expensive. 

[cspwal]

The FRA report (https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L17203) is certainly a thick read, but I would recommend at least skimming it if you're intested in this project.

 

What I can gather from it, TCR had downtown as their goal, but needed to study if the costs of continuing into downtown were worth it compared to the increased revenue.  From it being eliminated in level 1 screening, they used "the Project’s purpose and need, alignment objectives and design guidelines as screening criteria."  

 

The two downtown alternatives failed on Economic criteria and Environmental criteria

 

 

Two alternatives for the Downtown Houston geographic group, DH‐1 and DH‐2, have potential to create significant environmental impacts, thereby resulting in higher per mile costs (TCR’s Last Mile Analysis Report 2015a). Given the cost to build the Downtown Houston potential route alternatives, they do not meet the economic viability of the Project purpose and need. Accordingly, FRA eliminated DH‐1 and DH‐ 2 from further consideration for this Project. 

 

The discussion of why is on page 22 of the report.  

[Visitor]

See, this is the sort of circular reasoning that NIMBYs use to justify what is primarily an irrational emotional response. Yes, it's agreed that the project is needed, but not anywhere near me - that's not a logical argument, that's emotional territoriality. It's based on an unjustified belief in the ownership of one's proximity, as opposed to the plat of land that one has title to.

 

You see this all the time in infrastructure projects - usually landowners do not mind giving up rights of way or easements - that's either a lucrative one-time transaction, or a steady source of income over the years. Their neighbors, on the other hand, are usually the biggest opponents, and the opposition is couched in terms of territoriality.

 

If there's a perception that the NIMBY mentality is directed at all things rail, that's probably because they're usually more successful there. There are too many strong countervailing interests in Houston to block a major road project (for example, the Grand Parkway F-2).

 

I personally have always presented myself as a NIMBY.  To that end I would dispute your reference to territorialism; generally when people make a purchase of a home, it is not unilateraly for the x,000SF parcel but for the community and the immediate surrounding area.  So it would stand to reason that projects, regardless of what they are, that impact the community would have relevance to a resident.

 

I get that NIMBY'ism has probably prevented good projects from ever happening, and this might be one of them.  But to discount what a person should and shouldn't care about, b/c they do not "own" the land in question, is an overreaction IMO.

 

We can agree to disagree, in the long run neither of us really have impact on the decisions made.

[Slick Vik]

Then fly. You clearly don't understand the purpose of the train. If you think anyone taking the train to Dallas is only going because the station is close to Downtown or wouldn't take an uber/taxi/limo/driver... you are mistaken my friend.

A lot of people on Dallas forums are ripping the NW mall site.

[JJxvi]

Personally, (although Im sure theres some things I havent considered) I think relocating both the NW transit center and the high speed rail station at Post Oak Rd and Hempstead would be excellent.  HSR runs NW to Dallas, LRT runs SE through Eureka Yards then through the Heights to Yale-ish to the Washington Corridor to the same lines as Purple and Green downtown and also LRT south on Post Oak Rd to the Uptown line.  Seems like with the new lanes for 290 a bus transit center here could also easily be connected to both 290 and Katy lanes as well, probably easier than the way it currently works at I-10 and Katy rd.

Edited November 17, 2015 by JJxvi

[ADCS]

I personally have always presented myself as a NIMBY.  To that end I would dispute your reference to territorialism; generally when people make a purchase of a home, it is not unilateraly for the x,000SF parcel but for the community and the immediate surrounding area.  So it would stand to reason that projects, regardless of what they are, that impact the community would have relevance to a resident.

 

I get that NIMBY'ism has probably prevented good projects from ever happening, and this might be one of them.  But to discount what a person should and shouldn't care about, b/c they do not "own" the land in question, is an overreaction IMO.

 

We can agree to disagree, in the long run neither of us really have impact on the decisions made.

 

I would like to present a challenge - would you please lay out the disadvantages to routing the HSR through that corridor that do not have to do with the following:

 

1. Property values

2. Perceived neighborhood character

3. Noise and visual blight

4. Traffic disruption

[cspwal]

For the Washington Ave corridor, the report identified Environmental Impacts to:

 - National Historic District Heights Boulevard Esplanade (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7717105,-95.397202,3a,75y,207.98h,84.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8cJ8b_pQL7I4PAwynWYp3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 - they'd have to create an elevated crossing or an underpass, disrupting the historic median https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/HistoricPres/HistoricPreservationManual/historic_districts/heights_history.html)

 - US Healthworks Hospital (https://www.google.com/maps/place/U.S.+HealthWorks+Medical+Group/@29.7947347,-95.4501751,17z/data=!4m5!1m2!2m1!1sUS+Healthworks+Hospital!3m1!1s0x0000000000000000:0x89ef9847eb343859- I assume having to demolish it)

 - Houston and Texas Central Railroad archaeology site (not sure what this is)

 - Cottage Grove Park (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cottage+Grove+Park/@29.7783155,-95.4244988,17.46z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xaf158f812431e5ef - it already has a train going by it but a new HSR would probably have to eat up some of the park's land.

 

also, the FRA noted:

 

 

 Additionally, DH‐1 also has a potential to disproportionately impact minority populations. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2015 by cspwal

[Montrose1100]

 - National Historic District Heights Boulevard Esplanade (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7717105,-95.397202,3a,75y,207.98h,84.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8cJ8b_pQL7I4PAwynWYp3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 - they'd have to create an elevated crossing or an underpass, disrupting the historic median https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/HistoricPres/HistoricPreservationManual/historic_districts/heights_history.html)

Truly a jewel we cannot live without!

[august948]

What's your source on this?  I read that they studied it and basically determined it was too expensive. 

 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Planned-high-speed-rail-line-won-t-come-downtown-6627877.php

[DrLan34]

LIST OF CONTENDERS NARROWED FOR HOUSTON HIGH-SPEED RAIL DEPOT

 

The Federal Railroad Administration has narrowed the list of options for the Houston depot of the planned high-speed rail from Dallas to Houston.

 

Officials have eliminated both possible options that would have led the track to a depot in the CBD due to concerns over possible environmental damage in densely populated areas. The intersection of Highway 290 and Loop 610 appears to be the most likely contender for Houston’s depot, with the route likely ending around Northwest Mall, the Dallas Business Journal reports.

 

Construction on the line is slated to begin in 2017, with the first trains estimated to be running by 2021. The trains will travel at speeds of 205 mph and be able to transport passengers from Dallas to Houston in 90 minutes, with the capacity to make 68 trips a day between the two cities. Texas Central Partners, the company behind the project, estimates the high-speed rail could have $36B of potential economic benefits by 2040. [DBJ]

Read more at: https://www.bisnow.com/houston/news/other/officials-one-step-closer-to-selecting-houston-depot-for-high-speed-rail-52511?rt=title_alt_1?utm_source=CopyShare&utm_medium=Browser
 

[cspwal]

Truly a jewel we cannot live without!

 

yeah the only thing that sounded super important historically was the archaeological site - which I couldn't find any information about (using a quick 3 minute google search)

[curbur]

I guess this area has promise to be a nice area way way down the line, but I doubt that's going to come to full fruitition in our lifetimes. Overtime if the rail center was connected to light rail and prices rose, a lot of those warehouses and run down apartments would relocate to cheaper facilities or cash in on their greatly appreciated land value. This new development would tie in better to Uptown and the two gentrifying neighborhoods west and east that are rapidly filling in with townhomes and stucco mcmansion rebuilds.

[cspwal]

I think that is the way to think of it - in 30 years it won't be advertised as "minutes away from downtown" it will be advertised "in Houston's trendy North Uptown neighborhood"

[curbur]

I think that is the way to think of it - in 30 years it won't be advertised as "minutes away from downtown" it will be advertised "in Houston's trendy North Uptown neighborhood"

 

Can you imagine the traffic at the 610/290/I-10 interchange if Uptown builds out with highrises fully like it's already on its way to do, Westcreek builds out, and this area takes off with dense development?

[cspwal]

Thus the need for the Uptown line and better connections with the rest of the city.  And I'm sure the 290 construction will be done by then 

[morrchr1]

If Houston really wanted to commit to this, complete the University and Uptown lines that have already been voted on and extend the Green/Purple lines through the Washington corridor and out Hempstead HWY (the first option on the maps posted a few pages back) to meet the NW Mall station.  Even if the train came into downtown it would almost certainly have to slow down as it traveled through the densely populated neighborhoods anyways.  By building these three lines, nearly every major business center (and most neighborhoods BTW) of inner Houston would be connected by rail, as well as giving the option to riders of the TCR which part of town to travel to.

 

As for later expansion, add heavy commuter rail to the major corridors (Hardy Toll & 59 N from the North Redline station, I-10 West from the NW Mall Station, Westpark from the Westpark TC, 45 S fromt the Palm TC, Etc.) once HWY construction is maxed out and Houston is truly a mobile city.

 

Now all of that is more of a pipe dream, but the 3 light rail solutions have all been studied already, are all in desperate need of street renovation and add more flexibility than a downtown station would considering how spread out our major business centers are.

Edited November 17, 2015 by morrchr1

[mfastx]

The FRA report (https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L17203) is certainly a thick read, but I would recommend at least skimming it if you're intested in this project.

 

What I can gather from it, TCR had downtown as their goal, but needed to study if the costs of continuing into downtown were worth it compared to the increased revenue.  From it being eliminated in level 1 screening, they used "the Project’s purpose and need, alignment objectives and design guidelines as screening criteria."  

 

The two downtown alternatives failed on Economic criteria and Environmental criteria

 

 

The discussion of why is on page 22 of the report.  

 

Thanks, apologies for the laziness should have read the report before commenting. 

 

It looks like this was an internal analysis done by TCR and they themselves made the decision that it would be too costly and a negative return on their investment if they came all the way downtown, which is what most of us thought would happen in the first place. 

 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Planned-high-speed-rail-line-won-t-come-downtown-6627877.php

 

Like I said above, looks like an internal analysis/decision and not the feds not allowing it. 

 

If they had tons of money to spare, they'd do it. 

[august948]

Right. People in Dallas will be climbing all over themselves to get to Northwest Mall.

 

Very good, Grasshopper.  We're glad you finally get it.

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by august948

[samagon]

Very good, Grasshopper.  We're glad you finally get it.

 

 

Karbach brewery is going to be within walking distance.

[ADCS]

Karbach brewery is going to be within walking distance.

 

Now there's an idea... why not set up a TIRZ for the transformation of that area into the Brewery District or something like that (maybe the Texas Central District if they agree to an increased tax share)? Might also incentivize some of those industrial businesses to start moving outward on 290.

[JJxvi]

I suspect that the city is about to become VERY amenable (even moreso) to new TIRZs.  With the city property taxes being capped by revenue anyway, a TIRZ is one way to at least collect money and do something with it inside its district without having to give it all back through tax rate decreases because of the revenue cap.

Edited November 18, 2015 by JJxvi

[gregpet]

What drives me crazy is that we have freight trains running through extremely dense parts of Houston (even through downtown) and HSR ends up being too hard.

I hope HSR happens and maybe even the NW mall area gets gentrified but a DT station would seem a better fit.

[astros148]

it simply comes down to money bottom line. if theres not a light rail extension to this which makes it easier for people to go from the NW station to other parts of houston this will just be a massive disaster.

[august948]

it simply comes down to money bottom line. if theres not a light rail extension to this which makes it easier for people to go from the NW station to other parts of houston this will just be a massive disaster.

 

How would it be a massive disaster?  Are Hobby and IAH massive disasters?  Neither one has light rail service.

 

[ADCS]

How would it be a massive disaster?  Are Hobby and IAH massive disasters?  Neither one has light rail service.

 

 

Not only that, but it's as if taxis/towncars/Uber don't exist.

 

As much as I'd like some sort of rail out that way, it's likely that the target consumer for TCR would prefer taxis or rideshares over public transportation, anyway.

[Slick Vik]

How would it be a massive disaster? Are Hobby and IAH massive disasters? Neither one has light rail service.

Pretty much every out of town person I've spoken to thinks we are a backwards city for not having some kind of rail connection to our airports. They find it stunning, in a bad way.

[The Pragmatist]

It's not necessarily backwards. It's just that we haven't reached that point yet, Slick. "Backwards" would be something along the lines of removing airport rail connections if they were already in existence.

[cspwal]

Are you sure backwards wouldn't be having helicopter service to downtown from a HSR station outside beltway 8?

[cspwal]

Looks like Citylab would have prefered a downtown station

 

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/11/amid-great-progress-texas-high-speed-rail-takes-a-big-step-back/416733/

 

 

 

More broadly, conventional wisdom holds that HSR stations function better for city residents when they’re located downtown. That point was emphasized in arecent report by Eric Eidlin of the U.S. Federal Transit Administration on best practices from around the world. Downtown stations not only serve as investment anchors but also urban mobility hubs, facilitating access by taxi, bike, or public transportation. Stations on the outskirts, meanwhile, tend to have more parking and thus to encourage more driving.

 

[Slick Vik]

It's not necessarily backwards. It's just that we haven't reached that point yet, Slick. "Backwards" would be something along the lines of removing airport rail connections if they were already in existence.

We did remove rail parallel to I-10. Thanks tom delay.

[gmac]

Best practices around the world don't mean shiznit here. That's just the way it is. Cars are here to stay.

[Slick Vik]

Best practices around the world don't mean shiznit here. That's just the way it is. Cars are here to stay.

Sounds like LA 30 years ago.

[Ross]

Sounds like LA 30 years ago.

LA is full of cars. And always will be.

[IronTiger]

Looks like Citylab would have prefered a downtown station

 

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/11/amid-great-progress-texas-high-speed-rail-takes-a-big-step-back/416733/

Yeah, but "conventional wisdom" also holds that downtown is the center nucleus that radiates out to smaller parts of town. The reality is however that Houston just isn't built that way.

[Slick Vik]

LA is full of cars. And always will be.

1. It wasn't always like that. In fact it had 1500 miles of streetcars at one point. Insert your point here about how your dad took them.

2. LA also thought it never needed rail, and now is aggressively building it at a pace faster than any city in north america

3. Why do the car lovers always take rail as a threat on their way of life? It reminds me of when the hint of gun control is mentioned to gun owners.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Slick Vik

[IronTiger]

Don't answer him, you know the answers he gives.

[Ross]

Don't answer him, you know the answers he gives.

 

You're no fun. 

 

[gmac]

Vik, how many days in your life have you commuted to work, or anywhere, by rail?

[august948]

1. It wasn't always like that. In fact it had 1500 miles of streetcars at one point. Insert your point here about how your dad took them.

2. LA also thought it never needed rail, and now is aggressively building it at a pace faster than any city in north america

3. Why do the car lovers always take rail as a threat on their way of life? It reminds me of when the hint of gun control is mentioned to gun owners.

 

1.  Streetcars had their time and place.  That time and place has been more or less over with for about 80 years.  "Insert your point here about how your dad took them"?  Are you copying some else's talking points?

 

2.  If the good people of LA feel the need to build rail and want to spend the money on it, more power to them.  What's your point here?

 

3.  I think the more relevant question is why some rail lovers take cars as a threat to their way of life.  There's room for both.  Just like it's your option to carry or not carry.  Except that the right to carry is enshrined in the Constitution and the right to a train is not.  Not sure why you're bringing up gun laws here.