Texas Central Project

[UtterlyUrban]

So, running a train to downtown creates more "significant environmental impacts" than running all the individual passenger cars to the NW mall?

That makes a ton of sense. Right? Right? Yah, right. Some body need to tell Amtrak and metro that.

[BigFootsSocks]

It's a bit more complicated than that

[cspwal]

So, running a train to downtown creates more "significant environmental impacts" than running all the individual passenger cars to the NW mall?

That makes a ton of sense. Right? Right? Yah, right. Some body need to tell Amtrak and metro that.

 

Making a brand new grade separated train line would have a significant environmental impact.  The HSR can't follow current freight tracks (though it can use the ROW if wide enough) so they have to build a new tracks to get into downtown.  Meanwhile, Amtrak just shares the current freight line into downtown.

 

For Metro's side, they could still make sense, as they would have more stations along the way so there is more upside on a light rail/mass transit going through that corridor because it would stop and help mobility in that area.  The HSR would just glide through and have to be measured on its benefit at large.

 

That being said, I don't see them approving an elevated light rail track through here - the same neighbors would complain that complained about the HSR.  So if a route is going to go through here, it'll have to be at grade since no one wants to tunnel in Houston

[bedmondson]

So 90 minutes from Dallas to Houston, then another 90 minutes via bus/rented car to downtown? Haha. 

[IronTiger]

I wonder why they do seem to be terminating at Northwest Mall instead of going downtown.

 

Could it be just access problems, which is one reason I argued NW Mall instead of downtown in the past?

 

Could it be them unable to procure the land in downtown needed at a reasonable cost?

 

Or could it be the resistance in the Washington Avenue corridor, which (I imagine) would have more political sway than some disgruntled rural landowners?

[Sparrow]

I wonder why they do seem to be terminating at Northwest Mall instead of going downtown.

 

Could it be just access problems, which is one reason I argued NW Mall instead of downtown in the past?

 

Could it be them unable to procure the land in downtown needed at a reasonable cost?

 

Or could it be the resistance in the Washington Avenue corridor, which (I imagine) would have more political sway than some disgruntled rural landowners?

 

IT, check out TCP's website for links to the Step 2 analysis as well as the Last Mile analysis. All of their rationale and analysis is in the reports as well as the remaining 6 specific alignments between here and Dallas. In a nut shell, no DT station at this point due to environmental concerns (parks and historic places) and cost/benefit ratios.

 

 

As an aside, anyone know what the "Houston and Texas Central Railway archeological site" is?

[BigFootsSocks]

The reports that have been released say that the cost of extending the line from the Northwest station into Downtown outweigh the expected profit and ridership values that would benefit from a Downtown station. This may/will change as soon as Downtown becomes a hot spot destination, and the NIMBY's along Washington don't have enough political sway to "derail" a Downtown extension.

[cspwal]

Apparently TCR thought, and the Feds agreed, that the benefits of going downtown outweigh the environmental impacts to the neighborhoods and the cost of building it out.

 

I was thinking about how you could tie in this station into the light rail network, mainly to get people downtown, and I came up with 3 routes

 

West Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

East Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

Here is the three lines in an interactive map:

https://www.scribblemaps.com/create/#id=RrCrffSkaG&lat=29.777217766091777&lng=-95.39527148008347&z=14&t=hybrid

(I couldn't figure out how to embded it)

 

Purple is an extension of the purple line going west from downtown, following Houston Avenue to Washington Avenue, and then following Washington Avenue all the way to Hempsted Road, where it goes to NW Mall.

This line I think would be both the most useful and would face the most intense opposition as well as the hardest to construct.  It only requires one new overpass (right where Hempsted and Washington Ave intersect) and would connect to existing businesses and dense residential along it's entire corridor.  Downsides are of course that Washington Ave currently doesn't have a median, so this would hamper left turns into businesses, as well as require some ROW to maintain 4 lanes of traffic plus left turning pockets.

 

Washington Corridor Stats:

6.31 Miles long, most at grade

1 new overpass required

8 intermediary stations

28 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The next is pink.  This terminates at Burnett transit center and mainly follows the Heights Hike and Bike Trail.  It would be easier to build without disrupting traffic, but it would ruin the natural feeling of most of the trail.  After the trail terminates, it follows Shepherd north to 11th street, which it follows to Hempsted Road.

There is one spot where a new overpass might be needed to be built, a old train track crossing 11th street just east of Hempsted Road.  It might be better to just leave it as a level crossing depending on the train traffic through it.

Except for Shepherd and Sawyer Heights, this line would mainly run through residential areas.

 

Heights Corridor Stats:

6.77 miles long, most at grade

1 possible overpass required

6 intermediary stops

25 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The final idea is in light blue, following I-10.  I imagined an extended HOV lane (possibly this would also be BRT) that entered at its current location and went to NW mall, though exiting at Washington and following Hempstead road to get there more directly.  This route would have the least impact on businesses during construction, but I wasn't sure how to tie it in to the Red line, and it would have to be a 7 mile long completely elevated structure.  Also, this would only be an express line to TCR and nothing else.

 

I-10 Corridor Stats:

7.2 miles long, almost entirely elevated

2 intermediary stops

10 minute estimated trip time

 

 

 

[august948]

So 90 minutes from Dallas to Houston, then another 90 minutes via bus/rented car to downtown? Haha. 

 

NW Transit center to the Central Station on the red line is all of 16 minutes at 8am.  The only solution needed here is run a shuttle back and forth or, gasp, just have some P&R buses stop at the train station.  Problem solved.

 

[august948]

I wonder why they do seem to be terminating at Northwest Mall instead of going downtown.

 

Could it be just access problems, which is one reason I argued NW Mall instead of downtown in the past?

 

Could it be them unable to procure the land in downtown needed at a reasonable cost?

 

Or could it be the resistance in the Washington Avenue corridor, which (I imagine) would have more political sway than some disgruntled rural landowners?

 

Yes, yes & yes.

 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Planned-high-speed-rail-line-won-t-come-downtown-6627877.php?cmpid=btfpm

 

[Visitor]

Apparently TCR thought, and the Feds agreed, that the benefits of going downtown outweigh the environmental impacts to the neighborhoods and the cost of building it out.

I was thinking about how you could tie in this station into the light rail network, mainly to get people downtown, and I came up with 3 routes

West Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

East Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

Here is the three lines in an interactive map:

https://www.scribblemaps.com/create/#id=RrCrffSkaG&lat=29.777217766091777&lng=-95.39527148008347&z=14&t=hybrid

(I couldn't figure out how to embded it)

Purple is an extension of the purple line going west from downtown, following Houston Avenue to Washington Avenue, and then following Washington Avenue all the way to Hempsted Road, where it goes to NW Mall.

This line I think would be both the most useful and would face the most intense opposition as well as the hardest to construct. It only requires one new overpass (right where Hempsted and Washington Ave intersect) and would connect to existing businesses and dense residential along it's entire corridor. Downsides are of course that Washington Ave currently doesn't have a median, so this would hamper left turns into businesses, as well as require some ROW to maintain 4 lanes of traffic plus left turning pockets.

Washington Corridor Stats:

6.31 Miles long, most at grade

1 new overpass required

8 intermediary stations

28 minute estimated trip time

The next is pink. This terminates at Burnett transit center and mainly follows the Heights Hike and Bike Trail. It would be easier to build without disrupting traffic, but it would ruin the natural feeling of most of the trail. After the trail terminates, it follows Shepherd north to 11th street, which it follows to Hempsted Road.

There is one spot where a new overpass might be needed to be built, a old train track crossing 11th street just east of Hempsted Road. It might be better to just leave it as a level crossing depending on the train traffic through it.

Except for Shepherd and Sawyer Heights, this line would mainly run through residential areas.

Heights Corridor Stats:

6.77 miles long, most at grade

1 possible overpass required

6 intermediary stops

25 minute estimated trip time

The final idea is in light blue, following I-10. I imagined an extended HOV lane (possibly this would also be BRT) that entered at its current location and went to NW mall, though exiting at Washington and following Hempstead road to get there more directly. This route would have the least impact on businesses during construction, but I wasn't sure how to tie it in to the Red line, and it would have to be a 7 mile long completely elevated structure. Also, this would only be an express line to TCR and nothing else.

I-10 Corridor Stats:

7.2 miles long, almost entirely elevated

2 intermediary stops

10 minute estimated trip time

This NIMBY likes these ideas...

Far more value to the community than HSR running through.

[JLWM8609]

Apparently TCR thought, and the Feds agreed, that the benefits of going downtown outweigh the environmental impacts to the neighborhoods and the cost of building it out.

 

I was thinking about how you could tie in this station into the light rail network, mainly to get people downtown, and I came up with 3 routes

 

West Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

East Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

Here is the three lines in an interactive map:

https://www.scribblemaps.com/create/#id=RrCrffSkaG&lat=29.777217766091777&lng=-95.39527148008347&z=14&t=hybrid

(I couldn't figure out how to embded it)

 

Purple is an extension of the purple line going west from downtown, following Houston Avenue to Washington Avenue, and then following Washington Avenue all the way to Hempsted Road, where it goes to NW Mall.

This line I think would be both the most useful and would face the most intense opposition as well as the hardest to construct.  It only requires one new overpass (right where Hempsted and Washington Ave intersect) and would connect to existing businesses and dense residential along it's entire corridor.  Downsides are of course that Washington Ave currently doesn't have a median, so this would hamper left turns into businesses, as well as require some ROW to maintain 4 lanes of traffic plus left turning pockets.

 

Washington Corridor Stats:

6.31 Miles long, most at grade

1 new overpass required

8 intermediary stations

28 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The next is pink.  This terminates at Burnett transit center and mainly follows the Heights Hike and Bike Trail.  It would be easier to build without disrupting traffic, but it would ruin the natural feeling of most of the trail.  After the trail terminates, it follows Shepherd north to 11th street, which it follows to Hempsted Road.

There is one spot where a new overpass might be needed to be built, a old train track crossing 11th street just east of Hempsted Road.  It might be better to just leave it as a level crossing depending on the train traffic through it.

Except for Shepherd and Sawyer Heights, this line would mainly run through residential areas.

 

Heights Corridor Stats:

6.77 miles long, most at grade

1 possible overpass required

6 intermediary stops

25 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The final idea is in light blue, following I-10.  I imagined an extended HOV lane (possibly this would also be BRT) that entered at its current location and went to NW mall, though exiting at Washington and following Hempstead road to get there more directly.  This route would have the least impact on businesses during construction, but I wasn't sure how to tie it in to the Red line, and it would have to be a 7 mile long completely elevated structure.  Also, this would only be an express line to TCR and nothing else.

 

I-10 Corridor Stats:

7.2 miles long, almost entirely elevated

2 intermediary stops

10 minute estimated trip time

 

I like the Heights Corridor routing. I could see it constructed as a partial express line to TCR if it followed the Heights Hike and Bike trail underneath Shepherd and Durham, through the Eureka yard to Hempstead Rd. It would appease any NIMBYs who may not want light rail going down W 11th and may allow for the train to attain higher speeds on those stretches where its grade separated going underneath those roads. Though I don't know if going 66 mph next to a Hike and Bike trail is a good idea.

 

[IronTiger]

I like the Heights Corridor routing. I could see it constructed as a partial express line to TCR if it followed the Heights Hike and Bike trail underneath Shepherd and Durham, through the Eureka yard to Hempstead Rd. It would appease any NIMBYs who may not want light rail going down W 11th and may allow for the train to attain higher speeds on those stretches where its grade separated going underneath those roads. Though I don't know if going 66 mph next to a Hike and Bike trail is a good idea.

 

High speed rail is hardly an improvement (read: not at all a better chocie) over a light rail in a NIMBY sense, and even if it was grade-separated, it's way too curvy and impractical to be used as a rail corridor, which is probably why this leg was abandoned in the first place. From what I've been told, freight trains ran very slowly through the corridor, which I imagine would be HSR as well.

 

Why not just end it at NW Mall and have car rentals, so that you could go downtown quicker...or the energy corridor...or wherever you please. Not everyone wants to go downtown.

[Howard Huge]

No doubt there will be a taxi stand. And rental cars.

Plus, isn't the Northwest Transit Center about a half mile down the road? I would think there would be a shuttle.

Or maybe we could have, I don't know, JUST HAD THE F*****G TRAIN GO ALL THE WAY TO DOWNTOWN.

JESUS CHRIST this cow town is just one massive fail after the other.

[Howard Huge]

So 90 minutes from Dallas to Houston, then another 90 minutes via bus/rented car to downtown? Haha.

Pretty much.

Might as well catch a flight from DFW to Bush then catch a cab downtown, the extra cost would be negligible.

[cspwal]

I like the Heights Corridor routing. I could see it constructed as a partial express line to TCR if it followed the Heights Hike and Bike trail underneath Shepherd and Durham, through the Eureka yard to Hempstead Rd. It would appease any NIMBYs who may not want light rail going down W 11th and may allow for the train to attain higher speeds on those stretches where its grade separated going underneath those roads. Though I don't know if going 66 mph next to a Hike and Bike trail is a good idea.

 

 

That's why I put 25 minutes for the heights route - I assumed it would be going more like 30 around the that trail and on streets.  I didn't even think of going through that yard - just looked at current ROWs.  IT, I think we were both talking about it being a light rail not the HSR - light rail has more benefits to areas it goes through than the HSR because of more common stations

 

To be clear - I would prefer it to terminate downtown, but if it can't we should figure out how to tie in downtown/med center/everything else into the NW mall site

 

 

Edited November 14, 2015 by cspwal

[IronTiger]

I don't understand the obsession with the station being located downtown. From what I've heard, it is supposed to be an alternative to flying, and we all know that downtown isn't the end-all "place to be" as it is other cities (there are many job centers).

 

Let me phrase it this way, if Dallas wasn't putting theirs downtown, would you even care?

[Slick Vik]

This NIMBY likes these ideas...

Far more value to the community than HSR running through.

I doubt all th NIMBYs feel the same way.

I don't understand the obsession with the station being located downtown. From what I've heard, it is supposed to be an alternative to flying, and we all know that downtown isn't the end-all "place to be" as it is other cities (there are many job centers).

Let me phrase it this way, if Dallas wasn't putting theirs downtown, would you even care?

No surprise here. It takes a vision to understand

High speed rail is hardly an improvement (read: not at all a better chocie) over a light rail in a NIMBY sense, and even if it was grade-separated, it's way too curvy and impractical to be used as a rail corridor, which is probably why this leg was abandoned in the first place. From what I've been told, freight trains ran very slowly through the corridor, which I imagine would be HSR as well.

Why not just end it at NW Mall and have car rentals, so that you could go downtown quicker...or the energy corridor...or wherever you please. Not everyone wants to go downtown.

Rent a car to go downtown? That's a very dumb idea

[IronTiger]

No surprise here. It takes a vision to understand

Rent a car to go downtown? That's a very dumb idea

It's not renting a car to go downtown, because you're still stuck on the idea that all destinations ARE downtown. It could be downtown...or the Energy Corridor...or Galveston...or Uptown...or University of Houston. The possibilities are limitless. I mean, I suppose you could take advantage of mass transit, but that only goes so far (and takes a while).

If the answer to that is "why not just drive down I-45", then it's time to take a long look at if HSR is a winning prospect.

[BigFootsSocks]

My hands are scorched after reading these hot takes on my phone.

[Ross]

Or maybe we could have, I don't know, JUST HAD THE F*****G TRAIN GO ALL THE WAY TO DOWNTOWN.

JESUS CHRIST this cow town is just one massive fail after the other.

 

You do realize that it's the Feds that said no to going Downtown. I am happy with that decision, though, as it seems stupid to rip through established neighborhoods for a RoW that would actually work. I suspect the proprietors of the train will be happy not to spend the extra billion or two it would have taken to actually get to Downtown.

 

[cspwal]

The no came in the first level of screening in the document - it seemed to me (someone with more experience in these kinds of things can correct me) that TCR gave them the financial cost and benefits of bringing it downtown, and that the environmental review found the costs of that, and it was a simple is Benefit > Cost? No? Ok this is elimated. It didn't even go into the more detailed analysis of the 2nd and 3rd levels.

[august948]

Or maybe we could have, I don't know, JUST HAD THE F*****G TRAIN GO ALL THE WAY TO DOWNTOWN.

JESUS CHRIST this cow town is just one massive fail after the other.

 

Why bother when it's only 15 mins to get to downtown anyway?  Houston's population center has already moved well west of downtown.

 

I guess it must be one massive fail after another that put us at the top of a lot of national lists in the past few years.

 

[Luminare]

Honestly guys I'm just freakin thrilled its gotten this far! We are actually possibly getting HSR! Yeah it's not going to downtown, but they have expressed serious interests in extending it into downtown later and as the population grows in town it will become crazy not too. Until that time I'm just glad its getting built at all. I've been enjoying my train traveling while I have been in Germany and would love to have a little train travel whenever I get back to the States  

[IronTiger]

Honestly guys I'm just freakin thrilled its gotten this far! We are actually possibly getting HSR! Yeah it's not going to downtown, but they have expressed serious interests in extending it into downtown later and as the population grows in town it will become crazy not too. Until that time I'm just glad its getting built at all. I've been enjoying my train traveling while I have been in Germany and would love to have a little train travel whenever I get back to the States

Welcome back!

[august948]

My hands are scorched after reading these hot takes on my phone.

 

Probably just an indication your battery is going bad.

 

[BigFootsSocks]

Probably just an indication your battery is going bad.

This only exacerbates the issue

[ArchFan]

For me, the idea of having the Houston terminus at NW Mall is a major fail.  Is that defunct mall or the area in general a major destination?  I agree that downtown Houston  is not going to be the principal destination for every single person traveling here from Dallas, but it still is central and is still the closest thing we have to a central core.  

 

OK, here's some out-of-the-box thinking.  Maybe we can have a multi-billion-dollar HSR line linking Dallas' Red Bird Mall to NW Mall in Houston.  I would not invest my money in such a scheme, but if some people would be so foolish, go ahead. 

 

I live closer to NW Mall than to downtown Houston, but ... seriously.  I think it would be better to cancel the project entirely than to do something dumb like that.  

Edited November 16, 2015 by ArchFan

[BigFootsSocks]

You guys realize that the station is probably going to be Northwest mall...as in, it's getting torn down

[mollusk]

As much as I would like to be able to stroll from my downtown office to a HSR station... the Northwest Mall site is just about the same distance and drive time from downtown Houston as Love Field is from downtown Dallas.  It will also be able to coordinate better with commuter and light rail, what with not having all those runways and hangars and near 100' wingspans and such in the way.

[F4shionablecha0s]

I'm a Dallasite and I can't believe you guys are screwing this up. All this work that we're doing on our end to make the HSR practical and modern and then on your end we're gonna plop the passengers in some parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

 

So incredibly stupid and shortsighted...

Edited November 16, 2015 by F4shionablecha0s

[BigFootsSocks]

I'm a Dallasite and I can't believe you guys are screwing this up. All this work that we're doing on our end to make the HSR practical and modern and then on your end we're gonna plop the passengers in some parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

So incredibly stupid and shortsighted...

Is there a Dallas sub I can go into and yell at its users about how I know what's better for the city than they do?

[august948]

I'm a Dallasite and I can't believe you guys are screwing this up. All this work that we're doing on our end to make the HSR practical and modern and then on your end we're gonna plop the passengers in some parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

 

So incredibly stupid and shortsighted...

 

Or it's more or less a blank slate that we can re-develop for many blocks around.  It won't be a parking lot for long.  To bad Dallas won't have as many new development opportunities.  You guys really missed the boat on this one.

 

[BigFootsSocks]

I wasn't gonna be the one to turn it around on him, but both points hold the same merit. His take was just hotter.

[august948]

For me, the idea of having the Houston terminus at NW Mall is a major fail.  Is that defunct mall or the area in general a major destination?  I agree that downtown Houston  is not going to be the principal destination for every single person traveling here from Dallas, but it still is central and is still the closest thing we have to a central core.  

 

OK, here's some out-of-the-box thinking.  Maybe we can have a multi-billion-dollar HSR line linking Dallas' Red Bird Mall to NW Mall in Houston.  I would not invest my money in such a scheme, but if some people would be so foolish, go ahead. 

 

I live closer to NW Mall than to downtown Houston, but ... seriously.  I think it would be better to cancel the project entirely than to do something dumb like that.  

 

Better to cancel the whole project than to have a station at the NW mall site?  Seriously? 

 

Sounds like an argument the anti-HSR folks would make.

 

[august948]

I wasn't gonna be the one to turn it around on him, but both points hold the same merit. His take was just hotter.

 

Well, it was an egregious example of straight-line thinking.  The NW mall site has always been derelict, is now derelict, and therefore will always be derelict.

 

How about this site becoming the northern anchor of the Uptown district with light rail connections, commuter rail connections, three freeways, and office, residential, and shopping all the way down to the Galleria?  Does that really take a lot of vision to see?

 

[LarryDierker]

The Dallas guy is kinda right.  for the business travelers that will be the bulk of riders and who's employer will pay for rentals and transportation it's not a big deal. but for the average citizen of Dallas that may want to visit Houston for sporting events, conventions, concerts, museums, performing arts, TMC, The Zoo, college, The Rodeo, or just about any recreational activity the NW Mall location is really lame. No matter what they build there. Which will probably be a couple of crappy hotels, a couple of rental car places, a starbucks, a chick-fil-a, and a Pappasito's.

[august948]

The Dallas guy is kinda right.  for the business travelers that will be the bulk of riders and who's employer will pay for rentals and transportation it's not a big deal. but for the average citizen of Dallas that may want to visit Houston for sporting events, conventions, concerts, museums, performing arts, TMC, The Zoo, college, The Rodeo, or just about any recreational activity the NW Mall location is really lame. No matter what they build there. Which will probably be a couple of crappy hotels, a couple of rental car places, a starbucks, a chick-fil-a, and a Pappasito's.

 

Wouldn't those travelers currently be flying into Hobby or IAH and renting a car to go wherever?  I'd bet the bulk of the casual travellers flying in from Dallas are probably here to see family, and incidentally go to some of our attractions.

 

As for the Rodeo and some other events, they typically run shuttles from Delmar Stadium (across the street from NW Mall) or the NW Mall parking lots.  That's got to be pretty convenient.

 

[Montrose1100]

The Dallas guy is kinda right.  for the business travelers that will be the bulk of riders and who's employer will pay for rentals and transportation it's not a big deal. but for the average citizen of Dallas that may want to visit Houston for sporting events, conventions, concerts, museums, performing arts, TMC, The Zoo, college, The Rodeo, or just about any recreational activity the NW Mall location is really lame. No matter what they build there. Which will probably be a couple of crappy hotels, a couple of rental car places, a starbucks, a chick-fil-a, and a Pappasito's.

Lame is relative Larry. For instance, you included the Zoo, Rodeo, and sporting events as something not lame. 

 

 

 

The good thing about the NW Mall location is they can easily hop onto I-10 to avoid the west loop, and it's right on the edge of where the Houston city limits should be without the aggressive annexation. It's much closer to all the business districts than both Airports. I know it blows that we don't get a great terminal with all other transportation options Downtown, but I guess at least it's not stopping on the beltway or grand parkway? 

[mfastx]

I feel like the problem that most people have with the NW mall site is not necessarily that it isn't in downtown, but that it isn't anywhere really.  It's in a very undesirable area.  Who likes that area? 

 

Edit: to clarify, if the station was in uptown or something people wouldn't whine about it not being downtown.. because at least the station is in a destination area.  

 

No one is taking HSR to Houston to get to NW mall.  

 

At least some people's final destination would have been downtown, or uptown, or wherever.  Literally 0% of people taking HSR are wanting to get to NW mall. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by mfastx

[IronTiger]

I feel like the problem that most people have with the NW mall site is not necessarily that it isn't in downtown, but that it isn't anywhere really.  It's in a very undesirable area.  Who likes that area? 

 

Edit: to clarify, if the station was in uptown or something people wouldn't whine about it not being downtown.. because at least the station is in a destination area.  

 

No one is taking HSR to Houston to get to NW mall.  

 

At least some people's final destination would have been downtown, or uptown, or wherever.  Literally 0% of people taking HSR are wanting to get to NW mall. 

 

Why are we all getting hung up on this? The Northwest Mall site is not the mall itself. Almost certainly the mall will be flattened in the process or at least highly renovated. The old Foley's building will probably get demolished either way, and could provide an impetus to revive that part of town. Besides, even if it wasn't completely demolished, a renovated transit-oriented mall could provide a decent terminal, with places to eat, wait, or buy sundries at. That's what happens at all these actual transit/train stations in reality you guys claim to lionize.

 

And now you've got some Dallasite deliberately trying to troll you guys by taunting you that it's not downtown, and you're taking the bait.

[cspwal]

Yeah the NW mall is just the piece of land.  Once they buy it, they'll demolish it, and build their terminal and depot.  Parking garages, rental car lots, and most likely a new bus transit center (if Metro helps out) will be built, and it will completely change the fabric of that area.  

 

What we really need though is to ensure that a light rail & BRT station is also a part of this development, and I think we need to figure out a way to push Metro hard to get this done.  With out pressure, I could see them just building a bus shelter and sending a couple of local metro buses there like they do with Hobby

 

[Ross]

I feel like the problem that most people have with the NW mall site is not necessarily that it isn't in downtown, but that it isn't anywhere really. It's in a very undesirable area. Who likes that area?

Edit: to clarify, if the station was in uptown or something people wouldn't whine about it not being downtown.. because at least the station is in a destination area.

No one is taking HSR to Houston to get to NW mall.

At least some people's final destination would have been downtown, or uptown, or wherever. Literally 0% of people taking HSR are wanting to get to NW mall.

There could be thousands of Dallasites just waiting to go the antiques mall at NW Mall

[samagon]

It's not renting a car to go downtown, because you're still stuck on the idea that all destinations ARE downtown. It could be downtown...or the Energy Corridor...or Galveston...or Uptown...or University of Houston. The possibilities are limitless. I mean, I suppose you could take advantage of mass transit, but that only goes so far (and takes a while).

If the answer to that is "why not just drive down I-45", then it's time to take a long look at if HSR is a winning prospect.

 

Downtown is the center of a hub and spoke freeway system that provides quick and easy access to all other areas of Houston.

Downtown has the convention center, so Houston conventions are more accessible to Dallas.

Downtown has the theater district, so Houston shows are more accessible to Dallas.

 

If Houston ever gets a commuter rail it will most likely travel on existing corridors, so downtown Houston will be the central location for those spokes as well.

 

Downtown really is the best option.

Edited November 16, 2015 by samagon

[gmac]

I love the idea of the NW Mall as the terminal site. It moves us one more step away from the idea that "downtown" is the most important part of the city of Houston. It is close to the Galleria, and just a 610 ride away from stadiums and other attractions.

[Visitor]

Yeah the NW mall is just the piece of land.  Once they buy it, they'll demolish it, and build their terminal and depot.  Parking garages, rental car lots, and most likely a new bus transit center (if Metro helps out) will be built, and it will completely change the fabric of that area.  

 

What we really need though is to ensure that a light rail & BRT station is also a part of this development, and I think we need to figure out a way to push Metro hard to get this done.  With out pressure, I could see them just building a bus shelter and sending a couple of local metro buses there like they do with Hobby

 

Based on a meeting i was privy to where Christof Spieler presented and took questions, Metro does not have any real intentions of expanding Light Rail or rail of any sort.  They are (imo overly) proud of their bus system and any discussions related to future rail were essentially shot down with both cost and the "effectiveness" of the bus system being the main reasons. 

 

With that said, it's important if you want more rail in Houston, that you vote December 12th in the Mayoral run-off. As you know the Mayor is in charge of appointing members on the DOT Board and their vision of the city's transportation future plays a large role in what we eventually see come to fruition.

 

The Houston HSR Watch did a questionnaire to all candidates and those responses can be found here:

 

http://houstonhsrwatch.org/latest_information.html

 

It is important to note that the run off is between Turner and King. Turner also penned a letter to the Houston HSR Watch which can be found on the same page under "Early 2015"

 

Before all of the NIMBY comments come rolling in, the Houston HSR Watch is supportive of improved connectivity for Houston which includes light and commuter rail.  They are not against HSR, save for the infrastructure and disruption that would have been necessary to bring it downtown.  

[F4shionablecha0s]

And now you've got some Dallasite deliberately trying to troll you guys by taunting you that it's not downtown, and you're taking the bait.

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

[JJxvi]

The idea that travelers would be able to step out of the train terminal and be at their final destination is a fantasy even for downtown.  The business traveler  will be headed to an office or hotel downtown/uptown/greenway/along I-10 between Bunker Hill and Katy.  NW Mall/Transit center area is actually an ideal site, and much better located than Hobby Airport (which is the current Dallas to Houston exit point).  It's also a site that IS on the plans for future LRT both east to Downtown and south to Uptown.

[august948]

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

 

You do know that TCR wanted to go downtown but the Fed's nixed it, right?

 

[Montrose1100]

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

Exactly what has the city of Houston or it's voters (which BTW, this is NOT UP FOR A VOTE), done to remove the Downtown Station? This is all Texas Central shaving off costs, and the bottom line. If the ridership doesn't meet the building criteria for a few extra miles to Downtown then so be it. 

 

What do you think workers who get off in Downtown Dallas will have to do if their business meeting or hotel is not in Downtown or on the light rail lines? Take a taxi or an Uber.