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MaxConcrete

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Threatening may not be the right word, but all I can say is that I work in project development for oil and gas pipelines, where it does work like that.  You try and acquire the ROW through amicable negotiations (paying above FMV in most cases to make it go smoothly), but if you run into a landowner that is not negotiating in good faith, then having the ability to invoke ED helps in the negotiation.  You almost never want to actually go down that route though (as you point out) because of the lose/lose to both parties, but at least you have certainty that you can get the ROW at the end of the day.  The other way to get leverage in the negotiation is to have scouted reroutes around that landowner available so instead of getting 200% of FMV out of it, they could get nothing.

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Threatening may not be the right word, but all I can say is that I work in project development for oil and gas pipelines, where it does work like that.  You try and acquire the ROW through amicable negotiations (paying above FMV in most cases to make it go smoothly), but if you run into a landowner that is not negotiating in good faith, then having the ability to invoke ED helps in the negotiation.  You almost never want to actually go down that route though (as you point out) because of the lose/lose to both parties, but at least you have certainty that you can get the ROW at the end of the day.  The other way to get leverage in the negotiation is to have scouted reroutes around that landowner available so instead of getting 200% of FMV out of it, they could get nothing.

 

Now this is what you should have said in the beginning :P This is a much better argument. TCR has probably already run into people who are already a No from the very beginning. I mean you can't compromise with No! Instead of "leverage" I would actually place ED as the fulcrum in the negotiation. The thing that detaches an owner from his/her "No" perch that Begins negotation, but isn't in the negotiation afterwards. It's merely there to show that there are actually better ways to deal with the problem without the heavy hand of government and legal channels. I'm certainly not naive to anything like that, but a company doesn't want to piss people off. I'm sure you know that Oil companies while they are looking after themselves like any company should do also understands that if they do everything they can to treat an individual the right way the first time then that makes that person a repeat customer. Compromise makes for good business. In bringing this to a much larger context why do you think it's harder to start wars or fights...it hurts business. Why plunder and loot when you can keep going back to the well and always make revenue than the one time grab.

 

I had always agreed with the underlining theme of your argument, but it was the superficial layer the "threat" that just doesn't really work.

 

EDIT: Lets also remember that Eckels was a former County Judge. I don't think bullying  people with ED would be seen as kosher. Not the best attitude to take into negotiation as a startup anyway.

Edited by Luminare
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http://www.texastribune.org/2015/02/25/lawmaker-files-bill-could-stop-proposed-bullet-tra/

Remember two things people:

HB1889

Will Metcalf

Here's the facebook post:

Today, I filed House Bill 1889. This bill will require county approval for the use of eminent domain for electric railways. Numerous county officials have come out in opposition to the Texas Central Railway and their use of eminent domain. This bill would help give more local control and would let individual counties decide what is best for them. Although this may not be the ultimate solution, I believe it is a good first step. I am currently working on filing more legislation regarding this issue.

If you would like to learn more about HB 1889 please visit www.legis.state.tx.us

 

"Whee, here we go, the Ledge is back in session! And many a village is missing its idiot."  - Molly Ivins, 1/14/03

 

I miss her, even though a lot of her observations from a decade ago are still relevant - it's like deja vu all over again.

 

Rep. Metcalf apparently fails to remember that you already have to get the courts involved in order to exercise eminent domain - and once you get past somewhere around Conroe, those judges usually run into the affected landowners at the Dairy Queen or church or the high school football game pretty regularly.  Beyond that, this is a privately funded project (the sort of thing I kinda thought the Rs got all slobbery over) that's going to be using the same route as existing rights of way for rail or utilities for just about its entire length.  If Greenway Plaza and much of the Galleria area could be built over existing neighborhoods filled with fairly nice houses (shoot, downtown, too), it's pretty dang likely these guys can figure out how to deal with landowners along their route.  

 

Above and beyond which, this project isn't exactly something Bubba and Billy Bob hatched up yesterday afternoon at the ice house, or a concept piece from one of our colleagues on this board.  It's a private group that's managed to put together a pool of private resources that's on a par with a lot of good sized governmental entities, over the course of a number of years already.  It's not going to be the cartoon Ashby highrise, or even the sea of concrete that is the Katy Freeway.

 

An entire industry has built up around substituting easy talking points for facts.  In that atmosphere, fear, fear, gut wrenching fear!!!!! of the unknown easily billows into infinite panic, and that's hard to deal with.  Just look at what a pointless PITA it's become to get onto an airplane.

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"Whee, here we go, the Ledge is back in session! And many a village is missing its idiot."  - Molly Ivins, 1/14/03

 

I miss her, even though a lot of her observations from a decade ago are still relevant - it's like deja vu all over again.

 

Rep. Metcalf apparently fails to remember that you already have to get the courts involved in order to exercise eminent domain - and once you get past somewhere around Conroe, those judges usually run into the affected landowners at the Dairy Queen or church or the high school football game pretty regularly.  Beyond that, this is a privately funded project (the sort of thing I kinda thought the Rs got all slobbery over) that's going to be using the same route as existing rights of way for rail or utilities for just about its entire length.  If Greenway Plaza and much of the Galleria area could be built over existing neighborhoods filled with fairly nice houses (shoot, downtown, too), it's pretty dang likely these guys can figure out how to deal with landowners along their route.  

 

Above and beyond which, this project isn't exactly something Bubba and Billy Bob hatched up yesterday afternoon at the ice house, or a concept piece from one of our colleagues on this board.  It's a private group that's managed to put together a pool of private resources that's on a par with a lot of good sized governmental entities, over the course of a number of years already.  It's not going to be the cartoon Ashby highrise, or even the sea of concrete that is the Katy Freeway.

 

An entire industry has built up around substituting easy talking points for facts.  In that atmosphere, fear, fear, gut wrenching fear!!!!! of the unknown easily billows into infinite panic, and that's hard to deal with.  Just look at what a pointless PITA it's become to get onto an airplane.

 

I called the Representative's office to voice my concern that he is targeting private business and creating a situation where government is unfairly burdening the private sector and encouraging one form of travel over another. I used words like 'crony capitalism' and 'government regulations' to try and speak his language.

 

From what I gather, its a matter of him opposing the project in any form as he says it only benefits a few while hurting many. His rep even used a pipeline as an example of public good and this project as not affecting the public / hurting the public good.

 

It's mental gymnastics, but it is what the office believes.

 

Here's his office #: (512) 463-0726 

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I called the Representative's office to voice my concern that he is targeting private business and creating a situation where government is unfairly burdening the private sector and encouraging one form of travel over another. I used words like 'crony capitalism' and 'government regulations' to try and speak his language.

 

From what I gather, its a matter of him opposing the project in any form as he says it only benefits a few while hurting many. His rep even used a pipeline as an example of public good and this project as not affecting the public / hurting the public good.

 

It's mental gymnastics, but it is what the office believes.

 

Here's his office #: (512) 463-0726 

 

Best bet is to get a letter to the editor printed in the Chronicle and/or DMN. People will take notice in those circumstances, far more than a phone call will permit.

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I called the Representative's office to voice my concern that he is targeting private business and creating a situation where government is unfairly burdening the private sector and encouraging one form of travel over another. I used words like 'crony capitalism' and 'government regulations' to try and speak his language.

 

From what I gather, its a matter of him opposing the project in any form as he says it only benefits a few while hurting many. His rep even used a pipeline as an example of public good and this project as not affecting the public / hurting the public good.

 

It's mental gymnastics, but it is what the office believes.

 

Here's his office #: (512) 463-0726 

 

So is this suppose to motivate us to do a phone rush of this guys office? :P

 

Best bet is to get a letter to the editor printed in the Chronicle and/or DMN. People will take notice in those circumstances, far more than a phone call will permit.

 

I completely agree with this, however, would they really respond to stuff like this from this website?

 

Actually, for those who have the appropriate address, the Conroe Courier and similar fine publications would probably do better than Dallas or Houston's local fishwrap.

 

I agree with this also though you still need to put it in a Dallas or Houston newspaper so that it gets more eyes on it.

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Well, I still remember was that one of the big positives that you guys were praising it for is not using any new ROW that wasn't power line or railroad ROW and were using that "fact" to shut down opposition when it cropped it up on the thread.

Now, there's some politician that wants to prevent use of eminent domain unless counties approve it, and you've got feathers ruffled up. This leaves two possibilities:

1. TSR will not use eminent domain, and therefore the house bill is completely useless and there's nothing worry about.

2. TSR would use eminent domain, and you've been lying/lied to about it not using eminent domain.

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Well, I still remember was that one of the big positives that you guys were praising it for is not using any new ROW that wasn't power line or railroad ROW and were using that "fact" to shut down opposition when it cropped it up on the thread.

Now, there's some politician that wants to prevent use of eminent domain unless counties approve it, and you've got feathers ruffled up. This leaves two possibilities:

1. TSR will not use eminent domain, and therefore the house bill is completely useless and there's nothing worry about.

2. TSR would use eminent domain, and you've been lying/lied to about it not using eminent domain.

 

I don't know what "TSR" is.....

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I completely agree with this, however, would they really respond to stuff like this from this website?

 

 

 

Sure. "Representative so-and-so claims to be in favor of free market solutions to problems all Texans face together, but when the opportunity comes for a private company to solve a growing problem for this region and our state, he has shown that these are nothing but platitudes", etc.

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Well, I still remember was that one of the big positives that you guys were praising it for is not using any new ROW that wasn't power line or railroad ROW and were using that "fact" to shut down opposition when it cropped it up on the thread.

Now, there's some politician that wants to prevent use of eminent domain unless counties approve it, and you've got feathers ruffled up. This leaves two possibilities:

1. TSR will not use eminent domain, and therefore the house bill is completely useless and there's nothing worry about.

2. TSR would use eminent domain, and you've been lying/lied to about it not using eminent domain.

 

tl;dr for my earlier post - 

 

Exercising eminent domain already requires approval of a local court, the judges of which are likely to personally know the affected people in the counties between Houston and Dallas.  

 

-------------

 

I thought adding layers of governmental approval to a private enterprise project is something that Rep. Metcalf's party makes a big production about opposing.   :mellow:

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Well, I still remember was that one of the big positives that you guys were praising it for is not using any new ROW that wasn't power line or railroad ROW and were using that "fact" to shut down opposition when it cropped it up on the thread.

Now, there's some politician that wants to prevent use of eminent domain unless counties approve it, and you've got feathers ruffled up. This leaves two possibilities:

1. TSR will not use eminent domain, and therefore the house bill is completely useless and there's nothing worry about.

2. TSR would use eminent domain, and you've been lying/lied to about it not using eminent domain.

I think they were referring to the parts in the city no houses were being taken. And slivers of land in rural areas otherwise. We have republican leadership of fear mongering idiots that pretty much try to stop any useful political project. Edited by Slick Vik
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Well, I still remember was that one of the big positives that you guys were praising it for is not using any new ROW that wasn't power line or railroad ROW and were using that "fact" to shut down opposition when it cropped it up on the thread.

Now, there's some politician that wants to prevent use of eminent domain unless counties approve it, and you've got feathers ruffled up. This leaves two possibilities:

1. TSR will not use eminent domain, and therefore the house bill is completely useless and there's nothing worry about.

2. TSR would use eminent domain, and you've been lying/lied to about it not using eminent domain.

 

So if you are going to address "TCR" in this manner than I guess I'll go ahead and spill the beans.

 

Wednesday evening Mollusk, BigFootSocks, and I met with Eckels and his Director of Communications, David Benzion, for several hours. I don't think it would come as any shock to some that all three of us were impressed with what they have achieved so far, but I will admit that as someone who essentially questions everything I went in a little skeptical. I came out with a greater understand of what they have built up till now and I will say that the organization, technology, and planning they have gathered/assembled is quite robust. They will be releasing more info in the coming weeks, so I'm not going to spill my guts out of what was discussed. Hell even in the amount of time we spent there were plenty of topics of which we could have gone into further detail, but as a sort of an introduction it was very interesting to hear what both had to say about the project.

 

Of the many topics discussed we asked several questions related to this, and here's my understanding of what they said.

 

For the most part they will avoid using eminent domain as much as possible...I would go as far to say that even if they did it would be an extremely small percentage of the overall land they would be using.

 

Another point they wanted to expressed was that even though they will need to buy land in some areas they would utilize the free market to do so in order to avoid litigation with landowners and because it would be a better deal for the land owner if it was through the free market anyway.

 

Probably the biggest shock to the three of us was the amount of land of which they would need. Depending on where the train is traveling the amount of easement they will require fluctuates from 100ft to 40ft. Many of the easements they would require will be no bigger than some of the easements needed for your regular country road! It's that small. When entering more populated areas the easement will be more toward the 40ft.

 

Finally, many get confused between actually buying the land and buying easements (the right to use the land, or go over the land, etc....) Many ordinary people purchase easement rights from other landowners everyday particularly out in the country when sometimes a persons land holdings are surrounded by others. In other words it happens all the time!

 

And for those who were wondering why only the three of us (there were a couple more but some had to cancel) this was from the Director of Communications yesterday.

 

"[TCR] will be holding another such event for HAIFers soon, and will let everyone know so a wider range of folks can hopefully come. We kept it small and limited to start since this was the first time we had done something like this (i.e., held a briefing for people who were anonymous to us we just identified on the Internet), and we wanted to see how it would go."

 

So many more discussions to be had in the future.

Edited by Luminare
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I don't think it's irrelevant because without the right to resort to eminent domain, you better have a reroute available in the event you come up against a landowner that is dead set against accepting a proposal, regardless of how lucrative it might be for them.  With the number of properties and landowners likely to be involved on a route of this length, there are bound to be some that are not reasonable.

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I don't think it's irrelevant because without the right to resort to eminent domain, you better have a reroute available in the event you come up against a landowner that is dead set against accepting a proposal, regardless of how lucrative it might be for them.  With the number of properties and landowners likely to be involved on a route of this length, there are bound to be some that are not reasonable.

 

It's actually not as many as you might think but it's still a lot. In the meeting they said there are some 1000 landowners along the utility route and they will at some point be meeting with each and every one of them individually to discuss the specifics of where the route would cross.

 

I also think you should soften your stance on the perceived stubbornness of landowners. Many of them are willing to cooperate. In fact most of the noise is not even coming from the actual land owners but people who think they will be affected via proxy to their neighbors! We were told about one specific case were one landowner was one MILE away from the rail, but was still jumping on them for all kinds of fears that wouldn't even affect his property or his way of life!

 

TCR has made the point that they will be as accommodating as possible. They are pretty confident that they will be able to work in a smart way with each landowner.

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I don't think it's irrelevant because without the right to resort to eminent domain, you better have a reroute available in the event you come up against a landowner that is dead set against accepting a proposal, regardless of how lucrative it might be for them.  With the number of properties and landowners likely to be involved on a route of this length, there are bound to be some that are not reasonable.

 

I agree. Even with ED, you have landowners that want to be the last man standing and win the lottery by being the last link in a several billion dollar chain.  I sympathize with the landowners a bit, but without ED, there are a lot of things that benefit a lot of people that simply would not happen because an affected landowner does not see the benefit of a project for himself personally.

 

For a rural landowner, you usually see upwards of 80% happy as all get out that they get a payment for something that was at best an at-risk revenue source from farming, and at worst, useless. But the other 20% tends to conflate personal property and personal sovereignty.  Problem is, the laws will be more influenced by those with the most to lose or gain, so even if I did feel that the ED laws were unfair to landowners (which I don't, generally, Kelo type situations being the exception) I don't trust the process to ever get them tilted back the other way.

 

There are all manner of laws that govern what you can and can not do to, on or with your land, and you're just renting it from the government anyway, so if you can go on about your life as it was before but for the use of a 100' strip and some extra cash in your pocket, I am of a mind that there are more important things that one can get outraged over.

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And then you have politicians like Will Metcalf, in Conroe no less, doing this:

http://hartbeat.har.com/2015/02/26/lawmakers-bill-a-silver-bullet-to-stop-train-the-texas-tribune/

Aargh! Why are these knuckleheads so against mass transportation. We shall never leave the 19th century!

Edited by Dakota79
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And then you have politicians like Will Metcalf, in Conroe no less doing this:

http://hartbeat.har.com/2015/02/26/lawmakers-bill-a-silver-bullet-to-stop-train-the-texas-tribune/

Aargh! Why are these knuckleheads so against mass transportation. We shall never leave the 19th century!

 

Just look at when he joined office. He assumed office this past January! Early 30's, first term rep replacing a 7 year veteran in his seat. If you look at his history the dude has barely made it out of the Conroe/Huntsville area, so he is very wet behind the ears.

 

This looks like nothing but a very young politican looking at making a name for himself in his district, Montgomery County and the current Republican regime, very early. I mean look how absolutely absurd this bill is! I doubt this makes it through the first round of committees!

 

From my understanding of what I've been told TCR has a lot of support from not only local officals, but state officials, TXDOT, etc... Both Dallas and Houston politicans support this project as well. There is no way that these two cities are going to let a small town, first time Republican rep. sink what will be an enormous enterprise and economic benefit to the state. The Republican big wigs will let him have his fun for a little while, but will probably find a way to calm him down as this process continues.

 

Oh and lets not forget....the route no longer goes through Montgomery County, and when someone is simply trying to pass something just because they hate it...it usually gets put down.

 

EDIT: Not to mention this should become a project that Republicans should champion! This high speed rail will soon become involved in the greatest display of Private vs. Public battle in recent memory. That is instant press! You can't beat that! Texas vs. California. One ideology against another. Tell me how Republicans should be against this.....really...I mean really...

Edited by Luminare
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Because they think it champions "big government" and eminent domain.  Which I don't think it does, but then they don't mind using ED for purposes that are pro-GOP.  This guys mindset is: Trains are for democrats!  That's the perception.  Wrong though it may be, you can read the opinions of the poorly informed all over in our local media comment boards.  It won't change until the troglodytes in this state (and there are millions of them) see one working, and working well.

 

I've always said: Americans need to travel to Europe and see how the rest of the West does it.  Yes there are problems aplenty, but they do a lot of the little things that make life easier right.

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Because they think it champions "big government" and eminent domain.  Which I don't think it does, but then they don't mind using ED for purposes that are pro-GOP.  This guys mindset is: Trains are for democrats!  That's the perception.  Wrong though it may be, you can read the opinions of the poorly informed all over in our local media comment boards.  It won't change until the troglodytes in this state (and there are millions of them) see one working, and working well.

 

I've always said: Americans need to travel to Europe and see how the rest of the West does it.  Yes there are problems aplenty, but they do a lot of the little things that make life easier right.

 

It's actually quite sad because you can mentally picture this guy (who probably hasn't ventured much outside Texas in his life) doing the math in his head!

 

High Speed Rail = Something I don't understand and is foreign to my way of life....that must mean it's dangerous!

 

Trains = Public Transit = Where are there public transit = Blue states = Big government + Eminent Domain + higher taxes + liberals + environmentalism (which of course environmentalism = they must want to take away our cars).

 

Now take everything above:

 

Perceived knowledge about Trains + Something I don't understand and is foreign to my way of life (HSR) = Must stop it now!

Edited by Luminare
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Just look at when he joined office. He assumed office this past January! Early 30's, first term rep replacing a 7 year veteran in his seat. If you look at his history the dude has barely made it out of the Conroe/Huntsville area, so he is very wet behind the ears.

This looks like nothing but a very young politican looking at making a name for himself in his district, Montgomery County and the current Republican regime, very early. I mean look how absolutely absurd this bill is! I doubt this makes it through the first round of committees!

From my understanding of what I've been told TCR has a lot of support from not only local officals, but state officials, TXDOT, etc... Both Dallas and Houston politicans support this project as well. There is no way that these two cities are going to let a small town, first time Republican rep. sink what will be an enormous enterprise and economic benefit to the state. The Republican big wigs will let him have his fun for a little while, but will probably find a way to calm him down as this process continues.

Oh and lets not forget....the route no longer goes through Montgomery County, and when someone is simply trying to pass something just because they hate it...it usually gets put down.

EDIT: Not to mention this should become a project that Republicans should champion! This high speed rail will soon become involved in the greatest display of Private vs. Public battle in recent memory. That is instant press! You can't beat that! Texas vs. California. One ideology against another. Tell me how Republicans should be against this.....really...I mean really...

I was thinking he might be against it because it skips them.

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I was thinking he might be against it because it skips them.

 

If you look at his facebook page or search out info about him....he simply hates High Speed Rail. He argues that we should be speeding more money on roads and infrastructure related to cars. Yes we should be investing more in our road infrastructure, but the problem behind his argument is that it doesn't work because this isn't a public project.

 

Also I should point out that where ever TCR passes any kind of road infrastructure it then by proxy becomes part of the scope of the project since they will be spending money on grade separations creating new under passes or overpass.

 

TCR actually told people on the BNSF route that they would do this. Think about that for that entire route all roads crossing the railroad would actually RECEIVE funding from TCR to upgrade those crossings to underpass or overpass! for some reason they simply didn't understand that.

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Even so, "stopping eminent domain" is kind of difficult, if some county wanted to pull that to throw a monkey wrench into a highway expansion, a judge would shoot that down as soon as possible.

Metcalf isn't evil or corrupt, or even all that intellectually lacking (well, I don't know that, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt here), he doesn't know what he's doing. Unless the bill starts gaining traction with powerful interest groups backing it, I'd suggest putting down the pitchforks.

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Also I should point out that where ever TCR passes any kind of road infrastructure it then by proxy becomes part of the scope of the project since they will be spending money on grade separations creating new under passes or overpass.

 

TCR actually told people on the BNSF route that they would do this. Think about that for that entire route all roads crossing the railroad would actually RECEIVE funding from TCR to upgrade those crossings to underpass or overpass! for some reason they simply didn't understand that.

Huh. I was under the impression that the freight railroads would remain as-is, with an elevated viaduct being built next to/above them, not unlike some of the light rail in Dallas that shares ROW with freight lines and the spur leads. Frankly, I think this is kind of the better choice: building overpasses and underpasses sounds like a cool idea but in reality, this drags on construction (making any high speed rail construction readily apparent) and cuts off access, often permanently. I lived through the FM 2818 overpass project in CS, which directly affected me and still affects access to the rest of town (mileage is now added permanently to any trip). Moreover, if multiple construction projects are going on at the same time, that makes it even harder to get around, and if it's one at a time, then construction is going to go on longer.

[Note to all: "TSR" must be from combining "TCR" and "HSR"]

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Huh. I was under the impression that the freight railroads would remain as-is, with an elevated viaduct being built next to/above them, not unlike some of the light rail in Dallas that shares ROW with freight lines and the spur leads. Frankly, I think this is kind of the better choice: building overpasses and underpasses sounds like a cool idea but in reality, this drags on construction (making any high speed rail construction readily apparent) and cuts off access, often permanently. I lived through the FM 2818 overpass project in CS, which directly affected me and still affects access to the rest of town (mileage is now added permanently to any trip). Moreover, if multiple construction projects are going on at the same time, that makes it even harder to get around, and if it's one at a time, then construction is going to go on longer.

[Note to all: "TSR" must be from combining "TCR" and "HSR"]

 

You can choose to believe whatever you want dude, or whatever makes more since in your mind. I, however, choose to believe what I understood from the meeting.

 

Another thing....stop using examples to try to compare one project to another which aren't related or have their own unique challenges. You are trying to throw in FM 2818 and lightrail...just stop.

 

Now of course the BNSF route is no longer happening so that doesn't matter. The utility route will have a combination of viaducts and "at grade" sections (more like on raised berms). At points where they cross roads "at grade" they will do grade separations. If the section is already in viaduct form then you can assume that it will simply pass over whatever existing road. At which ever landowners properties they travel across if they want access points to other parts of their lands or to neighbors then they will construct underpasses for those landowners if its a section of rail "at grade".

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You can choose to believe whatever you want dude, or whatever makes more since in your mind. I, however, choose to believe what I understood from the meeting.

 

Another thing....stop using examples to try to compare one project to another which aren't related or have their own unique challenges. You are trying to throw in FM 2818 and lightrail...just stop.

 

Now of course the BNSF route is no longer happening so that doesn't matter. The utility route will have a combination of viaducts and "at grade" sections (more like on raised berms). At points where they cross roads "at grade" they will do grade separations. If the section is already in viaduct form then you can assume that it will simply pass over whatever existing road. At which ever landowners properties they travel across if they want access points to other parts of their lands or to neighbors then they will construct underpasses for those landowners if its a section of rail "at grade".

No need to be a d-bag, especially when it's from information derived from a meeting that you and a couple of others were privy to, and not previously released to the public. And yes, how dare I try to find the closest examples of comparison, because the HSR will blow my stupid peasant mind wide open.

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